jiodi

10's gonna be pretty good. Give it a chance :)

I'd suggest giving this guy a listen: http://www.dancarlin.com//disp.php/csarchive/Show-270---Poking-the-Bear/Ukraine-Russia-Putin

Everyone listens to the President as much as possible. I mean, how else are we gonna blame him for everything? :)

Cause apparently vaccinations alter your genes and give you down's syndrome. The argument is ridiculous and dangerous.

Beat me to it, was just about to post. Sad day :(

Oh trust me that insight is valuable as hell. Seeing the difference between cold across-the-globe analysis and someone who is in it on a certain side is valuable. I don't want you thinking I don't get that, But I definitely would like to see the other side from as close as a forum conversation, even.

Thankfully we have all sorts of media to sift through and decide what is true based on our own biases. I give you the kinda stuff that's really making people veer away from supporting Israel's current assault: Unicef says kids are being killed on purpose: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/americas/13172-unicef-israel-deliberately-killed-264-palestinian-children-in-gaza Israeli sniper being a racist psycho: http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/31/373518/israeli-sniper-admits-killing-13-kids/ Palestinian journalist blown up right before our eyes: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/30/rami-rayan-killed-dead-gaza-attack_n_5634548.html ---------------------------- And if you are more keen on not believing that that shit is going on or want to find good justifications for why Israel HAS to do this you can always go to the other side: Hamas being barbaric: http://tribune.com.pk/story/742986/us-calls-hamas-attack-barbaric-violation-of-gaza-ceasefire/ Israel is morally justified: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118788/israels-war-gaza-morally-justified Antisemitism is rising cause of all this: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-28552489 --------------------------------------------------------- Now, the hard part, for me at least, is trying to find what the facts are. It's hard to do when this shit is so hypercharged and divisive but a pretty safe way to go about it is to look into the history and try and reverse-engineer how it started, using numbers and facts supported by both sides and/or third party observers. Saying "good vs evil" is a good way to be automatically wrong. Even trying to figure out who is good and who is evil is kind of an exercise in futility. What's more important is getting to the bottom of it, having everyone clear their heads and try and put themselves in each other's shoes. Thankfully, that's not on any of us, we just have to understand it and be informed about it if we're gonna talk about it. Hamas is a fine example of blowback. Great Britain and Co conquered Palestine and gave the country to the Jews so they could have Israel (and western powers could have a friend in the middle east). Israelis have since maintained control over the land leaving Palestinians displaced and occupied. The more the settlements and other crap that goes on and the more than apartheid is a thing in that country, the angrier the Palestinians get. It doesn't justify Hamas, but it makes for a logical origin story. And saying "if terrorists were lobbing rockets into your country all the time you'd do the same" is a false equivalency, for the reason I stated above. The US is not occupying Canada or Mexico. Also, 9/11 was another blowback example and we went off and blew the shit out of some countries over it. We were not justified, just as the attack itself was unjustified, but a lot of people in the US were like SHIT YEAH DAWG GET IN THERE BLOW PEOPLE UP GET EM. And those of us who thought that were wrong. I was wrong when I thought it. Just because we WOULD doesn't mean it is appropriate. A solution where Palestinians get some of their own country back that's not blockaded and they are recognized by the world as a country again seems like a pretty reasonable solution. The problem with it is it doesn't seem like anyone wants to even try it cause politics and propaganda and maintaining rule through fear and shit. And as a regular person it's so hard for any of us to try and look at the situation without bias.

Sure, nowadays. But check this out: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB123275572295011847 Now I'm not saying this is truth or that guy is the be-all-end-all and knows everything, but from what he's saying it makes sense. In a lot of ways it's how we saw, say, Middle Eastern dictators take over (thanks, US, herdereder) and then get steamrolled or treated like the awful terrible bad guys (regardless of whether they were or not--though they mostly were). My enemy's enemy is my friend. Until they take up the mantle of my enemy after taking them down. Then they're my enemy.

I know personal experience is important, but historical analysis is also a factor. As well as an outside perspective. I generally only read overseas news sources for domestic news, for instance. I don't want my emotional investment in something obfuscate the facts. When you are in it, have an emotional stake in it and only see what you have in front of you it is helpful to see how others see it to keep your bearings. I'm sorry for your loss, but you really can't open up the discussion then call everyone who disagrees with your point Hamas-sympathizers and sitting on high horses and all that. It's a discussion, there will be points that are not the same as yours. Hamas was supported and encouraged by Israel in the beginning to counterbalance the Fatah party or whatever. Israeli politics uses the same tools US politics does. Find a bad guy, make em the bad guy for everything, get away with anything. Causing a rift between Palestinians was perfect and gave Israeli propaganda a bad guy. And no one is defending Hamas, here, because that's ludicrous. You don't just lob rockets into a country cause you aren't getting what you want. The Hamas propaganda has shifted to "Israel is the bad guys look at em bein bad and stuff we're outgunned and outmatched". THEN STOP FUCKING FIRING ROCKETS INTO THE COUNTRY JESUS FRIGGIN OMG WTF WHY. The issue here is the Israeli government blowing the shit out of civilians in Gaza under the guise of eliminating Hamas or their weapons caches or whatever. And when civilians die the Israeli administration says it's all Hamas fault. This is such obvious propaganda and anyone on the outside looking at it objectively can see that. Hell, the US is the reigning king of propaganda so it all seems like a pissing match for who can garner the most international support. This is insanity.

Nah I was just being a dick :P

And you'd be wrong, because Egypt sides with Israel and hates Hama :P Cici is secular military dictator, always gonna be at odds with those of religious ideology.

Well currently Israel is being viewed more and more as a country of apartheid and ethnic cleansing. I reserve judgment cause people always talk in the extremes, but the death toll keeps rising and the west is getting angrier and angrier about it. Would the US be willing to put a stop to Israel if they truly come out to be murdering Palestinians and doing the stuff people are speculating about? Or would WW3 happen where we're the bad guys D:

Fight Club could definitely make some top 20 lists of the best movies of the past couple decades.

I'm seriously bothered by this, too. If we truly are ramping up for some serious global world war conditions and we're on Israels side, we may be on the wrong side of history.