Zkirsche

@BBM: yeah but like, I didn't even read their posts lmao. Guess I've got no way of proving that to you.

If I was scumbuddies with Bart would I really not pay any attention to Bart's or Shinori's posts until late D2?

Yeah, that's where I got a bit blinded because of my frustration. Yeah but that's my b I thought it s a commonly held knowledge that Sully hopped on to a lot of wagons as they were building. My case was barebones but I'll have to agree to disagree on the half defending nonsense. Imo it isn't defending someone to ask for others opinions on something that you are doubtful about.

That's true, but the only reasons that really came forth from D1 was that you found Shinori to be scum on gut. That's why I viewed it as not great. I didn't pressure much D2 because I didn't find anything to pressure. Everything seemed good, which is what made me think my initial read on you was me being paranoid because logically you seemed like the most liekly town, then you come in this phase and accuse me of a lot of things in a way that I find super aggravating and misinterpret it as scum trying to paint everything I do as scummy without putting any thought behind it. That's why much of my case that isn't leftover gut from D1 was stuff you did this phase. You didn't say it was barebones though, you didn't say that the reasosn I had for suspecting Sully weren't much of a case, you said that I spent most of my case asking other people what they thought and (half)defending Sully. The first bit isn't bad, the second bit isn't true. Explaining why I disagree with other Sully points isn't me defending Sully. Thsi is what frustrated me about that post and why I thought you were just trying to undermine my case. If you had said that there wasn't a lot of concrete reasons for me voting Sully I would have agreed with you! I had my reservations early on about the lynch and wanted to talk more with Sully to get a better feel for his play and get more of an impression of what he was trying to do. I mean, Sully voting people opportunistically isn't opportunistic unless it matters who they're voting.? Sully voting Mich randomly D1 wouldn't be opportunistic unless significant pressure on Mich was mounting. I meant that you were saying I was suspicious even though by your own admission I'm playing like my town self in that regard. I'm getting flashbacks to when Prims defended himself against Refa by saying that Refa explained his own scumreasons. @Refa It's not brave when there were only really 4 widely-viewed scummy players left after the flips this phase: me, him, Mich and Bartozio. Marth and BBM were widely townread and Via/Refa were also. (Remember when Sully was "paranoid" about you? Come on, it's in scum!Sully's best itnerests to try and cool off people on just assuming there's all these obvtown in the thread). He voted Bart, which is a plus, but then switches to me for reasons he can no longer justify and is now claiming I am obviously scum, that everything I do makes me look scummier and that my defence is cracked up. Sully doesn't have to be good to be persistent or for his stuff to be interpreted as misinterpretations. The latter is on us. From my perspective you lynch me and Bart can just force a 1v1 to end the game. Reminder that even if Bart forces a 1v1 tomorrow and one of him/them flips scum the other can very well still be scum. I didn't need to reevaluate much because I didn't like Sully's interactions with Shinori so once Shinori flipped scum I was plenty happy with voting Sully. If not for the lynch then definitely for pressure. "Never make good on that" -> I'm arguing to lynch him over me here. Before BBM became confirmed town I thought he was scum with Sully so of course I'm not going to vote him there. Bart voted Sully after his Marth push failed because he has been scumreading Sully all game and so he defaulted there for safety. I bet he's forged this case on me last minute to make it look like his switch to me for consolidation at phase end isn't as bad as it could be used as an excuse to hop off his buddy.

Like, Sully asks me what I think of BBM when he is obviously confirmed town as if that's contributing to the "greater game at hand" if bad play is hard to fake then what is easy to fake?

Then you can understand how annoying it is for me when you claim Sully being skeptical of a lynch and flat out never reading the posts made by his top "scumread" are hard to fake as town. Sully has gone from claiming I'm desperate and being unable to back up his points, to saying I am the liekly scum on PoE, to saying I never contribute to the greater game at hand (when all of my reads have a greater scum team in mind and I've been looking at associations between people and what their interactions mean for the scumteam at large). If he isn't making shit up as he goes along as town he is flat out deluding himself into things that are clearly not happening. If he's truly thinking about what happens in the thread out of game then he is deliberately thinking how to portray every action I have made as scummy. Why am I a better lynch than Bart? Why am I scummy in the first place Refa?

Interrogator is a killing role normally but usually they can only kill the person they are interrogating and by flavour that would be PB, no?

Mackc and PB were basically masons so I think town can exist without an investigation role and they could not have anythign else. Since BBM is conf I'm down to lynch Bart too. Maybe Elie is scum but there is nothing to say on this slot otehr than he has disappeared. Refa I know you don't think my posts are super townie but why am I scum? Especially over Bart/Sully? @Sully: What part of the BBM case though. What am I saying is wrong that is actually right? You can't say I'm desperate for stating that BBM's scumread on me is wrong. It was a gut feeling I had all game and I was explaining why the last few posts were scummy imo. I didn't read his D2 enough to get a good feel for it other than everything was mostly fine, but with a player like BBM everything can appear mostly fine when it isn't. So my original case on you was desperate? Why does it sound that way? Like, all this time you haven't explained why I'm desperate you just keep claiming I am and that makes me scum. Even though by your own admission even town gets desperate.

Why can I spend hours faking a Prims case just to kill him but BBM can't write that as scum. Both are fakeable. Bart, his case against me is bad and opportunistic and his interactions with Shinori are not as good as Mich's as pointed out by BBM. The only reservation I have about him is that I don't know if he would silently vote Sully again after his Marth push fizzled out just to reverse the decision later.

##Unvote ##Vote: Sully Not me over me. Still think BBM is scummy but that's not happening today I guess. PLEASE think about it N3 though.

@Sully, since you stopped reading my paragraph asking you to explain why I was desperate scum so you can defend yourself from accusations made against you that didn't exist, can you explain: -What things I'm stating wrong are actually right and I'm just claiming they're wrong out of desperation. -The actual flaws in my BBM case logic. <- dodging this was really bad -The actual flaws in my logic against you and why it is likely to come from scum. -What changed from the start of D2 when you were townreading me for reasons that weren't related to Baldrick. Do you think the way I've constructed cases has changed significantly? @Marth: I guess but it makes scum!BBM look good by arguing against the turbo and the Prims case (especially after Prims dies and flips likely town)? I don't really remember him being all that active about his defence, just a couple of posts here and there? Maybe you're right and I'm just frustrated and OMGUSing iunno. Between being accused of faking inactivity when I was genuinely busy, being misread or just outright misrepped by him, and SF eating my posts discussing in detail why I didn't like BBM's reasoning against me I am pretty fucking sick of this argument. Elieson has fucking disappeared off the earth. Even Mich was posting more content than this. @Refa: In one hour it's going to be 6AM and I'm not staying up that late for this.

Do we really only have 24 hours left? Lame. I'm VT. You and BBM made similar points but it all depends on the wording. For example I'm pretty sure you agreed with someone about someone's timing of his vote being weird or something when they never said that. The "agreed with someone" part is the sheeping part. You kinda just like, make a vote on someone that has public opinion shifting against them, said that you agree with X because of reason Y, where Y may or may not be true at all, as if it justifies your vote and then you keep writing about reason Y. It's very weird and I don't really know how to describe it aside from "sheeping for the wrong reasons". At least that's my impressions of your votes and why I call them opportunistic. @BBM: I'm not suspicious of Sully hopping votes I'm suspicious of who they're hopping on and for what reasons. What parts of your case have I not rebutted? You seem to think I'm scum because my case on you is bad (not scummy or true), My Sully case was weird because I spent half of it defending Sully or some shit (not true at all) and the logic used wasn't good enough to form a case (disagree), my Shinori interactions were scummy even though I'm just playing to my town meta (???????????????), my thought processes regarding whether or not vote hopping is scummy or not and why (which I've explained so much I'm done talking about it after this post.), and me not existing for D1 and the first bit of D2 (too busy to play). Your point about you having all night phase to recover is fair and it makes more sense if you could talk to Refa, Via and co that you would come back stronger. I meant that I would have likely lynched Snike not necessarily interacted with Prims in the same way. Iunno it made sense in my head but it wasn't a great argument. To me, there was a disconnect in Prims in Rein's game and what Prims wanted to do, and Prims in this game and I thought at the time that it was unoikely to be such a massive shift. I have already explained what the shift was so you can comment on that if you wish. I mean clearly the reasoning was bad in the end but hindsight is 20/20. The way I asked people to clarify what they mean and the way BBM asked me to reread Sully is completely different though? BBM was saying that my Sully case was so empty that I needed to reread (no there is no implication that he wanted examples of Sully being opportunistic). I wasn't sure Sully was being coached, explained why, but asked the people I knew that argued this for their perspective to see if they are wrong. Also the circumstances are completely different: I'm not subtlety undermining their case while trying to paint them scummy. I have always thought Refa was town for instance. The end of your post almost makes it sound like you want to vote for me over Sully all of a sudden which is incredibly opportunistic. That would throw a spanner in the works because I'm not sure scum!you would blindly hop onto your buddies D3 wagon then swap to me for such contrived reasoning? Maybe you're just town making a bad case iunno.

I'll get to the other stuff later.

Don't have a lot of time right now rip. Sully: Except you criticised me for "saying everything everyone says is wrong or suspicious" saying I looked desperate. My point is the only things I'm pointing out are wrong are things that are wrong, and if you don't find the things I find people suspicious for suspicious then please elaborate why. Instead of making blanket statement to justify your vote abnd you 180. You never said what changed between my play before D2 and during it that makes me scummy now but not before. Why? Why is it wrong? Where is the fault in my reasoning? If you're gonna call my case weak then at least answer that much. As for complexity, pointing out the subtle intent in BBM's post is a lot more intrinsic and complicated to a general statement about opportunistic voting and associative reads. Re;others: Not really I can understand Elie's confusion because I had that impression myself and wanting to kill a possible SK is greatly understandable. This is not what you did, you just wanted me to reread Sully. You didn't want examples. Examples include their vote on BBM D1 and their vote on Prims D1, off the top of my head. Pretty sure he was sheeping me both times except for the wrong reasons. How exactly? You keep stating this and I'll keep stating the opposite: I wanted his perspective. If he agreed with me on the intent: which he didn't! That'd show a link in our thought processes that would make me think he would be more townie. I didn't post that much at the beginning of D2 because I was busy.

^^^^^Lmao @Marth: I don't see Prims as being an easy turbo and I think arguing against turboing anyone is a fairly legit idea that can come from both town and scum. I'm not arguing against BBM calling my case bad, I think the way he is(or rather, isn't) doing it is bad. What about his mindset and his actions? Do you think the way he came into this thread today was natural considering he was a big proponent of the Baldrick wagon last phase?

@SB. Would a theoretical Sk count towards the announced *ylo?

If people don't want to read all of that then can people please read the bit just before my BBM vote and think about it and discuss it with me? @Refa @Quote @Bartozio @Magnificence Incarnate @Elieson hell even @SullyMcGully.

I'm at L-1 and it's 5/2/1 if there's an SK so someone should unvote before we end up 2/2/1 or 3/1/1. Sully first: Since D1. Nothing he did afterwards screamed suspicious but I was cautious of him since D1. Every defence that has been made towards him has never convinced me either and I've been keeping an eye out for them. Even D2 I was arguing against people saying BBM was town. I'm saying what people are saying is wrong because it is wrong. Saying I was particularly suspicious or very "anti baldrick" D1 is wrong, saying I was defending Baldrick by not wanting to commit to a lynch 24 horus into the day on someone I had never read is wrong, saying I was defending you by asking opinions about where you had been coached is wrong. These are factually incorrect statement that are being used to forge scumreads of me. Were they not wrong Sully? Please point out to me how these statements or impressions were correct. As for my suspicions, feel free to talk about which suspicions are wrong and why. I would love to know this as this would help me continually update my read on you and it may help brighten my understanding of this game. Here's a perfect example of BBM waffling on Shinori and one that I chastised him for D1: In the first paragraph he goes on about how Shinori being mad is bad but not really because he did something similar (and FHPoV he is town). Next paragraph is him explaining that he messed up on his initial interpretation of Shinori's vote but Shinori is still bad because Shinori got annoyed at people voting him for reasons he interpreted as shitty instead of realising that people likely just misread what Shinori said. Pedit: See later for more on BBM waffling on Shinori. I get re-evaluating after a failed flip but you agreed with my arguments before but now my arguments are scummy for reasons that you haven't gone into. Not to mention I wasn't super big on the Baldrick wagon so I don't really understand it. I don't think your opinion of me at the start of D2 was about Baldrick, so what changed between now and then? Not everything everyone says or doesn't say is suspicious: best example of that is in my very first post of the day, when I am questioning how you appeared coahced and what them them think it in the first place. @BBM: I didn't think Sully's confirmation phase vote would come from scum who could ask his buddies "I should keep my role pm secret" instead of posting it publicly. The statement reads as the opposite of paranoid, which is generally a feeling that comes associated with rolling scum for the first time. I remember being quite intimidated and more than a little scared by it and I wasn't even scum my first game. Why is it bad exactly? We played the first day of that OC game rather like NOC in terms of scumreads and lynching someone because of it. I questioned if it really makes such a huge difference that one can talk to people individually because frankly I don't think I would have played that game that much differently if the convos in thread stayed the same and I didn't talk to people out of thread. As for your last point, so scum!me can fake opinions better. If I've only just barely read the thread I couldn't form informed opinions on people and that'd make me look scummy because I wouldn't be able to pass my fake opinions off as genuine. Like, you think I'm motivated enough to fake that giant 4 microsoft word page essay on why I think Prims is scum just to kill him anyway but I'm not motivated enough to reread Baldrick mid phase so I can actually have an opinion of him? I have weighed up why other people think you are town and I do not believe they are good reasons for doing so and have explained thoroughly why. I've been wary of you since my very first post but even though your content had improved and you were reading better it was always nagging at me. I guess you can call it gut or whatever but in addition to that: -calling me out for asking other people about stuff and arguing that means I'm defending Sully is bad because it's a contrived argument used to justify a suspicion that has basically come out of nowhere considering you were townreading me D2. It also comes at a time when public opinion of me was obviously not great considering I was on many people's scumteams. This is opportunistic and scum taking advantage of a growing sentiment to fuel a mislynch when one more mislynch puts town in a very troublesome position. -undermining my Sully case subtlety is scummy for the reason I mentioned. It doesn't matter if my Sully case was/is bad or not (it's not), not actually arguing against it is scummy because you are trying to convince people that its bad without actually proving its bad. Stating the case is obviously bad, doesn't make it bad. -This was only really a kind of thought in my head and not something concrete at the time but I feel like your opinions and feelings as a player are very inconsistant this game. He liked to waffle on Shinori D1, then now criticises me for providing counterarguments and questions to Sully's aggressors in parts of my post. If the first can come from town, then surely the latter can come from town. So why is it come D3 that you think that it is scummy? I also don't think town!BBM would go from being unsure of his reads like he supposedly would have been post Baldrick mislynch to confidently claiming the scumteam is me/Bartozio? My Sully case wasn't the most indepth, it isn't nearly as complex and well thought out as my case on you, but dismissing the reasons that I have made and saying that "I barely had a Sully case" just frankly isn't true. I have my reasons for it, part of it is PoE, but I believe that he has bad interactions with our flipped scum, had made bad votes all through the game including but not limited to this jump on me. Are these reasons bad reasons for calling someone scum? Are they scummy reasons? ##Unvote ##Vote: BBM @Via/Marth/Bartozio/Refa: Thoughts on my above points? Where did I disagree with him? I wanted to know what scum intent he found in it, I never stated that there wasn't any. I just wanted to know more about his read for my understanding and to help me validate my read on him. The bus on Earlio was a terrible move that put us on the backfoot all game and your overconfidence that game cost us dearly at the end. You're not going to just do that again in the very next game. Half-assing your read on Shinori D1 is your way of holding back I'm sure. Having a gut feeling with no backing behind it and outright stating "there's nothing particularly scummy about his posts" or something like that is why I'm calling your Shinori read a half-assed waffle.

BBM is also seeming very confident for someone who seemed dejected at the idea of Baldrick being town on D2.

fuck fuck FUCK new SF seriously. Thanks for erasing my post and then saving the post I made previously. Another hour down the drain playing this game. Last time I'm playing NOC here I think, see you in OC. Here's a condensed version of some of the points I was going to make. Refa and BBM going on and on about how they would have reread sooner or read more people is terrible. Confirmation phase started less than 12 hours after I signed up and I didn't really want to delay the game because I'd feel guilty after everyone has their role pms anyway. I didn't have time to read Baldrick's or Bart's cases and talk about everything I wanted to talk about. Prims was scummy and I just barely had enough time to post that and read through everyone else I was distracted with (BBM and Ken, for instance). As for D2, Refa straight up ignores where I said that I couldn't reread sooner because it was way too late for me when I could get on to get a disconnect in my actions. It wasn't just that Prims was a better player but that it wasn't what I expected from him after Rein's game. Shinori not elaborating his read on Sully is incriminating because while it's easy to be dismissive of people who everyone is town reading (e.g. Refa), Sully was/is a big lynch target and if Sully flipped scum and Shinori committed to the town read it looks bad on him. If Sully is town then Shinori is more likely to fake a case on him to seem more active and potentially buddy up to those already pushing him. I feel like you should know this Refa. Regardless, what is the scum intent behind my actions here? Why, as scum, would I not want to reread and get better reads as soon as possible if I could? I have my reservations about the Sully vote but PoE, interactions and their vote play makes them the most likely scum in my eyes. Me asking Refa/PB about where Sully seems coached isn't scummy when I shed doubts on the argument and its kinda weird that you call it out. You undermine my read with "you should reread Sully again" when you haven't really shown why my points are wrong or not enough to warrant lynching. This is scummy because you are subtlely gonna make people like me less even though you haven't fully presented my arguments or picked them apart. I'll reread Sully if I think my impressions of him are wrong or outdated, so are either of these true? If you think I'm scum then do you think I knew my scumbuddy Shinori was going to die and wrote that wallpost anyway? How is it convenient for me as scum that my main scumreads die and I am left with very little to push and present? The question is relevant because PB, Refa and now you all think/thought that he is being coached but I didn't see how. I am obviosuly going to be interested in seeing every perspective on Sully and also help me decide for myself that he is scum. I'm not 100% locked into it so of course I'm going to see every angle: if he seemed coached then I am less likely to change my mind later potentially. The only argument presented to me is the sudden confidence and posting a lot, which is not necessarily competance imo. Lightning rod in a game of vanillas is odd and at the start of the phase you acted kinda surprised that Shinori flipped scum so why would you target him? I also don't see how not trusting anyone is a reason for idling N1, so if you could explain that that would be nice. Why would Scum!BBM not defend Prims from a turbo when turbos are generally seen as bad plays? Felt really easy to defend Prims there tbh when he wasn't really scumreading Prims beforehand. Sully you have a knack for sheeping things I didn't say. I thought most of the game was suspecting Shinori or had him in scumteams. In fact BBM spent a lot of the time half assing and waffling on Shinori, suspecting him but not committing to the lynch and always justifying everything he found Shinori suspicious for after he said it. I'm pretty sure he even acknowledged it and said that his read on Shinori was mostly gut at one point. I'll have to read his D2 though. Sully also 180d on me now that public opinion is against me so OMGUS there. He also wisely kept his options open by effectively scumreading 4 out of 6 people with the only two townreads being towards people most weren't even considering for a lynch (BBM and Marth). The BBM one especially I think is contrived (this isn't scummy in of itself: newbs make mistakes as both town and scum) so it could easily be about a scumbuddy. Could easily see BBM/Sully as scumbuddies with Shinori. Next most likely is Bart and then Mich, Bart's interactions with Shinori are much worse but I'm not sure scum!tracker would go after SK after losing a buddy? Bart targetting Refa N1 also makes very little sense as while he would have been the mafia member put onto the scumkill, you have to be paranoid about him being mafia in the first place to think to target him, so Bart what made you think that?

My reason for being wary of Marth was mostly fueled off of his awareness of how many people were on each wagon and after his defence felt town on tone I realised that my "suspicion" was kinda dumb and just paranoia. I also liked his Bart case and his reasoning for it so I was pretty ok with the slot at the time, and then later your explanation about him not digging up past games for reasons to townread people as scum was pretty good. I mentioned your defence because I was explaining who would be scum after Baldrick's flip and I was explaining why I thought he was town and why he was excluded from that discussion. I have had a small townread on him from page 9 up until now. As for your suspicions: 1) I was busy and had very little time to do an analysis of all three and of the three I mostly read Prims, and his general competance and my little experience of his recent town play led me to think he was scum parking. I pretty much read none of Baldrick's/Bartozio's posts and only knew that they were voting Ken. 2) The only comparison I made between the Baldrick and Ken cases was that people had settled on them very quickly. I was/am frustrated that town sat on the Ken lynch for so long that it became basically inevitable and then the same warning signs started appearing again so I spoke out about it. To me it doesn't matter if someone is the scummiest scumlord that ever existed (excluding actual guilties or 1v1 situations of course), deciding to lynch them and viewing everything they do as scummy isn't going to help town in any way. I didn't care about lynching Baldrick and I wasn't defending him, commiting to the lynch was a bad idea. I didn't reread Baldrick until later because rereading the thread was painful enough once to try and look at all of Prims' posts and I was struggling to motivate myself to read it again. By the time I had made my GLORIOUS ANNOUNCEMENT it was 1:20AM and I was having a hard time staying coherant (you might notice my post length dropped to about one line a post with the first thought that came into my head), and I most certainly couldn't focus enough to form a good analysis. I spent much of the next evening reading through his ISO and thinking about what he'd say and whether or not certain posts would come from scum, but came to the overall conclusion that he was scummy and that I was happy to lynch him. I did read what people were saying when the momentum was shifting against him, but the points being made weren't very convincing to me (e.g. he was town because of the VT claim) and his posts weren't moving me too much one way or the other, with just a few thigns here and there throwing me off. Wouldn't exactly want to lynch anyone else and didn't really have the time to stick around so left it at that. @Bartozio: Why did you like them? My mistake, looked like two different points to me. What are you thoughts on Sully now that Shinori has flipped scum but Baldrick flipped town? You said that if both flipped scum Sully is less likely to be scum but what now?

Don''t suppose you have a reason for this?

What's the point of rereading if everyone I reread just dies? Sadly I can’t bring myself to ISO Sully as he has so many posts and he posts outside of SF mafia frequently rip. My general impression from seeing his posts scattered about when ISOing others though is that he likes to sheep other people, but not necessarily sheeping the real reason that person suspected someone. (E.g. agrees with me and BBM about feeling wary about Baldrick D1 when I at least hadn’t got an opinion of Baldrick D1). Not sure if this is scummy thought because a newbie is not only more likely to sheep but also more likely to misunderstand people. I think the worst thing is that he seems to be also hopping onto the largest wagon at the time each time which is quite opportunistic and I can definitely see newb!scum doing that. @Sully: Can you give another list of reads on each person and reason for each where possible? Like your D2 one I guess. @People scumreading Sully: Can you guys think of an example where Sully backtracked on a read to hop opportunistically on a wagon? You can potentially use his page 18 reads post as a eference. Also @Refa/Paperblade: What made you think Sully was being coached, like what sentences and stuff do you think were too confident/well made to come from a newbie like him that warranted this suspicion in the first place? I ask because Sully seeming confused about whether Mackc could be scum or not doesn’t suggest that they are being coached by anyone. Also I feel like someone being coached would make way less mistakes. I think Sully/Shinori makes a reasonable scum team, as Shinori town reads him and never really expands on it, never really commenting on the actual cases made by other people on him in the process. Shinori had also supposedly eased Sully’s suspicions because his Bart case was “weak but with merit” which is weird. What are those merits? Since Shinori is dead and has flipped scum I am happy to ##Vote: Sully because my confirmation vote defence is dumb and he has bad interactions with Shinori. I'll need a bit of time to think about the otehr scum members. Specifically I'm not sure scum!Mich and scum!Shinori woudl argue like that in the thread. The reasoning on both sides is bad enough to make me think its purposeful bussing but the constant back and forth about misreading each others posts feels unlikely to come from scum/scum.

I'm not gonna be around for long unfortunately so I'll save my Shinori/Sully ISOs for N2. Speaking of, Shinori has disappeared again. I think a VT claim can come from scum on D2 after a VT was mislynched D1 as town got a public reminder that VTs exist and there's a chance doubts can form in the minds of people who have just mislynched a VT. I agree that there are some posts which I find are weird from scum but I may just be becoming paranoid about the lynch. Reminder that if Baldrick flips scum we should look into the Mackc wagon earlier in the day, and maybe this Sully wagon too. Everyone should reread Shinori and Sully if they can for tomorrow as they are on the most sucmteams and I personally think Shinori is one of the most suspicious folks here, not as sure about Sully but I'm getting paranoid I accepted him as a townread too quickly. @Mich: Why is being salty a scum move? I think town can get mad at people suspecting them.

Since you guys are here now and prob just didn't see this in the wall.