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Everything posted by Zoran

  1. You should not expect Odin to double anyone without serious support. It’s just not what he does. He uses Nosferatu early and stacks damage for one-shot kills late. Speed support will not help him at either of these jobs.
  2. Oh, I love this game! You can make Jakob 1 do what Silas does in chapters 7-9 if you pick female Corrin, dedicate your entire early game strategy to supporting him and feeding him kills, and spend the game's very first Heart Seal on him. But he's top tier because of the way you can spend three of the eleven total early seals on him to do everything that Silas and then Camilla do for free. — Obviously I'm being disingenuous to make a point. The nature of the game is that any early unit is going to take a certain amount of investment to get going. Odin is not a significant burden in this respect. He's good enough at base to still pull down 2-3 levels quickly across two chapters without especially good matchups for him. The early game is even kind enough to give three free EXP bonanzas in a row with paralogue 1, invasion 1, and chapter 10; that’s a big reason why early units are much better than the ones that join in chapter 12 and 13. Odin doesn't take a forged weapon. If you're complaining that he gets Nosferatu, what else are you going to buy with that money? You get 13,000 G before chapter 10 (plus up to 2,000 from Goddess Icon sales) and the only things worth buying are 1-2 seals, tonics, a Javelin, maybe a second Javelin or Hand Axe, and 4-7 bronze weapons for early forges. Under the rules of the tier list this thread was made to discuss, all castle resources are completely free.
  3. Shephen's original pairing guide was done very much with an Awakening mindset. In that game, pairing up was always correct, and it was pretty difficult to build supports outside of those pair-ups, especially for whichever unit was in back. (There also wasn’t much reason to build support with anyone but a unit's spouse, because S rank pair-up bonuses were so much better than even A rank ones.) This has several effects on his reasoning that I think are wrong. He says, for instance, that it’s very hard to get Azura married off (since pairing her up with someone would be a waste of her abilities). This isn’t actually all that true because she gets +4 support points every time she sings and gets another +4 any time someone fights adjacent to her (+6-8 if they use her attack stance), and the highest level of support gain on a map is reached at just 30 points. So it’s quite possible to max out support with Azura in 3-4 turns without ever putting her in guard stance with anyone. Because he was thinking about being in guard stance all the time, he overemphasizes the idea of aligning the guard stance stat boosts between support partners: +speed support for big bulky units, +str/+def for speedsters, and so on. Those are good, yes, but a lot of the value in achieving support ranks comes from new class access, a thing that didn’t happen in Awakening at all. He treats pairing two bulky but slow units who give +DEF bonuses as redundant, when in fact these sorts of units tend to do extremely well in attack stance together. He assumes that your choice of partner is more or less fixed for the whole game. Thus pairing Silas with Camilla means not pairing him with Kaze. This is not how you should play. Many times you’ll want to have a specific kind of support partner earlier in the game, perhaps because a unit needs extra defense early on or really wants a friendship class as soon as possible, but then that same unit will be looking for something very different later on—a sweet level 15 skill or a great finishing class, perhaps. Also, using guard stance and attack stance in tandem allows you to build support ranks with multiple partners at the same time. I respect what he was trying to do with this series, but I think it shaped the community's understanding of how to play Fates for the worse.
  4. Did you watch any of the videos I posted? Odin is great in the early game. “Babying” him consists of doing a few attack stance setups in his join chapter in 4-6 turns and then buying the Nosferatu tome when you have 10,000 G and not much else to spend it on. That alone is good enough to get him off the ground. He’s got tons of opportunities to get more levels in the early chapters, performs as well as Jakob 1 on Chapter 10, and then past that point is the second-strongest enemy phase unit you’re likely to have after Camilla. This is before he can do any of his reclass shenanigans to break the middle and late game.
  5. It’s a really fun challenge run. It’s possible even to give every first gen unit an S support and a relevant A+ support and level them all to 20 and then promote them all by the end of chapter 20, but that takes some really intense planning and a good sense of how to work with under-leveled units all the time. (Abuse attack stance, mainly.) Still, that’s not at all what you should do if you’re just trying to learn how to do a solid Lunatic Conquest clear. A focused team will work a lot better. Charlotte!Siegbert is a really nice physical unit, in my experience, but his paralogue is very frustrating unless you have a top-tier blender unit or two. Think Sorcerers with Vantage or really strong Sol Master Ninjas, each with a lot of +damage skills.
  6. What’s funny is that Fates makes almost all its prepromotes great, but also makes trainee units way less of a burden. Bronze forges are genuinely great throughout the game (E rank hell basically isn’t a thing with +2 forges), and Attack Stance lets weaklings steal kills and catch up without much special attention.
  7. Can you pull this off? I have Hero Silas at: 33 STR (cap) + 4, at most, from statues (+STR Corrin, Beruka, Effie, Sophie, not counting level 3 Siegbert) + 3 Vow of Friendship + 5 Trample (marry Beruka or Camilla) + 3 Elbow Room + 2 Strength +2 + 1 Defender + 7 Berserker Corrin (+STR, -HP/SPD/DEF) A Rank Guard Stance + 2 Supportive + 4 Rally STR + 1 Fancy Footwork + 2 Tonic + 3 Sword A Rank + 1 A Rank WTA + 6 Brave Sword might ------------ = 77 total attack This hits the mark exactly without spending Corrin's marriage on him, but you still have to have a specific boon/bane and marriage setup. Marrying Samurai Corrin makes the margin much wider with Swordfaire & Life and Death over Trample & Strength +2.
  8. Reddit dropped Odin down to D tier. I tried.
  9. Let's suppose Jakob changes from Butler to Paladin at level 5, then gets to level 8 in Chapter 7 so that he has both Elbow Room and Defender, and they're both active. If using Silas instead, let's say he gains two levels in chapter 7, also reaching level 8. On average, these are their effective stats with skills factored in: Unit HP STR MAG SKL SPD LCK DEF RES Jakob 26 19 7 15 12 15 12 11 Silas 23 15 3 10 9 8 11 6 Silas (VoF) 23 18 6 10 9 8 14 9 So Silas with VoF up basically trades a few points in everything else for 2 defense. This is not as bad as you might think for a few reasons. One, Silas still has just enough speed at base to reasonably reach doubling thresholds on enemies in chapters 8, 9, 10, and 11, and that's when more +SPD pair-up options start arriving. Two, he has overall better growths; Silas will erase the 1-point deficit in STR pretty soon and will expand his DEF lead. The superior Defense makes Silas better than Jakob for attack stance purposes; Jakob will tend to do better with dedicated guard stance support. Lastly (and this doesn't apply to you so much), Jakob 1 has the hidden downside of not being able to benefit from Felicia. On a male Corrin run, you can position your units so that Silas gets incredibly tanky by himself, making him a much better abuser of attack stance. Jakob doesn't require you to pay attention to Corrin's HP to perform at his best. That's a nice convenience, but there are turn 1 or turn 2 setups to drop Corrin below half health through at least chapter 14. Corrin's usually over-leveled enough from the prologue that she can still fight well at low health and doesn't need to pick up a lot of kills to remain useful throughout the early game. There's also a chapter that is devoted more or less exclusively to feeding Corrin enough EXP to promote.
  10. Being sick has left me with a little bit of time on my hands. Here's an interesting way to play chapter 7, focusing on building Silas's lance rank and Elise's axe rank. And here's a quick, low-effort demonstration that Odin dominates chapter 13.
  11. Since I posted this on Reddit, I figure I'd also share here. This first video is a demonstration that Odin can gain a level even at LTC pace in his join chapter. This one is a variation that goes slower to give Odin another level and generally build the army better. And the most recent one I've done is a showcase of Odin on chapter 10.
  12. Uh, Selena has quite good personal strength, speed, and defense bases, and her growths for the latter two are above average. She has perfectly adequate skill, too. She performs pretty well for a few chapters before sword lock and the mercenary line's middling stat and growth spread get to her. And early Selena x Beruka is simple to build. In Chapter 10, Selena occupies the northeastern ballista on her join turn with Camilla's support. Camilla and Beruka can then fight off the whole first wave from the east side the next turn, passing Selena around as needed. After that, Selena one-rounds the rest of the archers with Beruka's support, using only some vulneraries. They appreciate Azura's help along the way, but Camilla can go fly somewhere else. Both Beruka and Selena can get a level from this. Selena helps Beruka wipe the Oni Savage room in Ch.11 on turn 2. She can then poach kills in the diviner room or the samurai room. Chapter 12 is a place where they can do work in Attack Stance. Selena and Beruka can pick up kills along the left side at the beginning, and then they become part of your giant player phase swarm on the turn you trigger the dragon vein. In chapter 13, Selena should have the armorslayer, so it's no trouble to get her 4-5 kills in the northeast corner while the rest of your party crosses the river in the west or middle parts of the map. She should reach level 14-15. Immediate friendship seal to Wyvern Rider trades 2 skill, 2 speed, and 2 res for 2 def, 1 str, flight, axes over swords, and a quick Strength +2. The extra def and higher def growth leverage Selena's stat spread a lot better than her natural classes. She becomes essentially a Beruka who doubles nearly everything.
  13. Selena is actually quite good in her own right if you’re diligent about building her fast supports and you get her into Wyvern after chapter 13. She usually won’t be a world-beater by endgame because she doesn’t have the class sets for it, but you can do a lot worse than being a fast and bulky flier with moderate early damage stack for the price of a single Friendship Seal from the second shop.
  14. @joshcja do you have a rough turn-by-turn of how you’re stuffing 3 levels into Odin in chapter 8? I know of ways to do it, but they’re pretty slow, so I’d love to read a faster setup if you’ve got one.
  15. There's no "hope" anywhere. Guard Stance is extremely reliable. You don't use it correctly because you think of it as a way to negate the worst possible enemy attack. Instead (if you don't know for sure what the enemy turn order is) you should think of it as a guaranteed block on the weakest enemy attack. It doesn't matter what order the enemies end up attacking in. If you're going to be in range of three enemies, you make sure the two strongest attacks can't kill you, and then you're fine. It goes like this: Enemy 1 attacks. Counterattack twice. Guard gauge is at 6/10. It doesn't matter whether the enemy hits or not. Enemy 2 attacks. Counterattack twice. Guard gauge is full. It doesn't matter whether the enemy hits or not—I made sure I would survive regardless. Enemy 3 attacks; it's blocked. Counterattack twice. Now, maybe attack number 3 here was some weakling who could only do one damage. That's fine! Simply because I'm going to get that dual guard, I know that I have four consecutive chances to steal HP from two different enemies, after all the damage has come in. I don't care what kind of power Enemy 3 has because he represents just a 100 - (100-Skl)^2 % chance of being an HP donor. The likelihood is high, even on a lowball estimate of 25 skill, that you'll recover a large chunk of HP. There's also a decent chance, stacked on top of that, that one of the first two enemies just happens to miss. If you don't recover with Sol and they don't miss, fine, you can get a healer over there or retreat or use a healing item—whatever you would've otherwise done if you didn't have Sol at all. But if you do hit those chances, great! You've effectively gained an action next player phase and saved some resources. Healing does vary depending on the enemy's exact defenses and whether you get Sol on the first strike or the second, but because you get these streaks of four strikes in a row thanks to dual guards, a lot of the variance is smoothed out. I mentioned Breakers and Shurikenfaire not because they're essential but because they're tools that any of these units will eventually get. It's not a gotcha to say that those are late-game things—of course they are! The build works on underlying principles, and these late-game bonuses simply accentuate the features that were already there.
  16. Sol is very strong on units with: high damage, high skill, good speed, decent bulk, and unrestricted 1-2 range. That list encompasses basically ninja Silas, ninja Laslow, ninja Soleil, and no one else. If you're imagining that Sol is supposed to recover whatever damage you take instantly, so that no enemies deal damage to you, you're not conceptualizing it properly. Normally, you position your units so they take a certain number of battles and you know they'll survive until the next turn no matter what. If you're doubling in Guard Stance, you know that at least one in every three enemy attacks will get blocked, and if you take five fights you could potentially block the third one and the fifth one. So if your unit won't die in three hits, and it counterattacks and doubles all the enemies, you've got potentially ten chances to proc a skill. With Sol on such a unit, you still set things up the same way—you don't count on Sol procs going off at the right moments to keep you from dying. But what changes is that you can now be reasonably sure that the unit comes out of the fight with a good amount of HP. On ten fights with 25 Skill, the chance that you proc Sol at least three times is 47.4%; you'll get it at least twice 75.6% of the time. With the high damage you get from these units by stacking Elbow Room, Strong Riposte, Vow of Friendship/Sisterhood, +STR pairup, meals, and eventually Shurikenfaire, any given Sol hit is likely to heal a lot of HP—generally about ten each time. Combined with ninja's high Avoid, and especially when WTA or breakers are in play, chances are quite good that the unit in question will not need healing in order to fight multiple enemies on the following turn, too. So Sol is a skill that buys actions for you.
  17. There are five early Heart Seals in Conquest. Even under the assumption that Corrin, Jakob 1, and Camilla each take one, there are two left over that you can use for just about anything. Friendship Seals are pretty easy to build toward for many early units, and they relieve a lot of the demand for mid-game class changes. There aren’t many units who need a Heart Seal mid-game to keep up; most do well in their base class until chapter 20 or have a good friendship set. To me, the list of first gen units who really need one of those two other Heart Seals before chapter 20 to be any good begins and ends at Mozu. They’re nice to have for Gunter and Xander, while Elise would like an early one and Odin can get stupidly broken if you give him two. But I would also contest the notion that Camilla, Jakob, and Corrin really need the early Heart Seals. Jakob does better with marriage to Corrin for early Malig Knight, whereas Silas does Paladin Jakob’s thing but for free. Corrin’s perfectly good abusing the dragonstone throughout the early game and can steal other classes via friendship in the middle game. Camilla does just fine staying in Malig Knight for a while.
  18. You can follow this guide to do it. He actually gets Kaze to level 10 before the route split, which is pretty hilarious. Not the thing to do if you care about low turn counts, though. I’ve run modifications to this general strategy that don’t give Kaze quite as much of the experience, either to go faster or to get Rinkah to D Axes (also a pretty amusing result).
  19. I'm with @joshcja. I pretty much always have a stacked Sol Master Ninja with Shurikenbreaker (Silas, Soleil, or Laslow) for the right-hand side and stacked Calamity Gate Ophelia with Bowbreaker for the left. You can just Freeze one or both of the Spy Shuriken MNs around the corridor on the east side. Once everyone else around them is eaten, it's pretty trivial to break down the wall there and clean up.
  20. The Silas discussion over on Reddit really annoyed me. Their collective wisdom seems to be that he becomes kind of disappointing during the middle game and other units surpass him… which is completely correct, if you leave him in the cavalier line, but is wildly untrue if you bother to exploit his array of reclass options. The Sol Master Ninja role seems completely unknown there and damage stacking isn't considered at all. I made a giant effort post about the really dumb things Odin can do, and rated Nyx a lot lower than him, but I got no responses from anyone but the guy running the tier list. He complained that Nyx and Odin do practically the same things.
  21. The fun way to do it is to send Elise into wyvern immediately, letting her build axe rank at a time when her high speed base, Strength +2, and a forged Bronze Axe can carry her. Early access to weapons makes her personal skill much more potent, too.
  22. It's five fights together to hit the support cap, as detailed here. I've tested the findings about how the support points are counted extensively while trying to plan a run of Lunatic Conquest where I recruit and train absolutely everybody. They seem to be accurate, with some clarifications about the raw support gains: Battled in Guard Stance or Attack Stance (even if the attack stance partner was unarmed): +6 Adjacent during a battle, but not as attack stance partners: +4 Sang to or used a staff on an ally: +4 Actually used a dual strike or dual guard during the battle (even if the dual strike was negated by enemy guard stance): +2 Seed of Trust or Private Quarters: +12, and these ignore the usual support caps The link I just gave has a more accurate detailing of the situation, but roughly speaking, these raw support points are tallied and then sorted into tiers of 3, 2, or 1. For a given unit, only the top three partners on a particular map earn any points, and everyone else is dropped down to zero. You need to do five rounds of combat together (30 raw points) for the 3-point tier, three rounds (18 raw points) for the 2-point tier, and two rounds (or 10 raw points) for the 1-point tier. Only one unit can get the full three points; second place can earn at most two, and third place can get at most one. (I suspect this same system is also used in Awakening. It explains why sometimes you don't get Chrom or Lissa C supports by the end of chapter 1, even when you're using the Water Trick and everyone has tons of fights alongside Robin.) Effie and Arthur have a fast support, so their support break-points are 2 for C, 3 for B, 4 for A, and 5 for S. Normal supports take 3 for C and 4 for B. This does mean they only need six maps to get to S rank, so you can do it with 7, 8, 9, Mozu, Inv. 1, and 10. The main advantage of fast supports is that you can earn B rank in just one map—but only if you max out support points there. In this case, the crucial map is… Odin's join map. If Effie and Arthur reached A before chapter 10, then they should still have earned S rank after chapter 11. So I suspect you also shorted them on these last two chapters. If the two of them did just four fights together on each map, then they'd have earned 2 points on both maps for a total of 4, and they need 5.
  23. For what it's worth, Lucina!Morgan starting in Tactician has the distinct advantage of coming with Veteran.
  24. The difference is that Lucina has the Lord class line and Cynthia doesn’t. In particular, Lords have Dual Strike+, which makes it very easy for capped characters to reach 100 dual strike rate. 100% Dual Strike is always powerful, but it's especially strong when Lucina's husband is a Sage with 1-2 range braves (i.e., Celica's Gale), Vengeance, and Vantage. This setup is one of the only ways to reliably take on Apotheosis on enemy phase. The units who have access to all these tools are male Robin, any Laurent with Vantage, any Owain with Vengeance, Libra!Inigo, and any male Morgan. If you’d like to have the option to do this strategy with Robin, consider marrying +Mag/-Def Robin to Lucina. Marrying Lucina also has story implications that I enjoy.
  25. Henry's fantastic for Gerome because he's the only father who passes both Berserker and +Hit skills. He's solid for most everyone else for the reasons you mentioned, and he's really only bad on Kjelle and Noire, who want Galeforce. Since you’re running Sumia!Lucina, you have an opportunity to get an Aether Morgan with great mods by marrying Sumia!Lucina or Chrom!Cynthia. +Str/-Def gives 4/1/6/5/1/-3/0 and makes yet another fantastic Wyvern Lord or Sniper. +Mag/-Def gives you 0/5/4/7/1/-5/2; the +7 Speed is exactly enough to hit 75 in Valkyrie with Sage support, and Valkyrie might as well be Morgan's personal class because no other children can get it with both Galeforce and Tomefaire. +Spd/-Def is overkill in most cases but has merit in certain challenge runs of Apotheosis. All this advice is with Apotheosis in mind, of course.
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