Vajra

These are definitely more buffs than I was expecting. The range increase on F-air might make SH auto-cancelling with it more useful especially. Although they may not fix his weaknesses, they surely help to augment his strengths even further. While I am glad the weak hitbox on F-smash was partially fixed, it would have been nice if the same happened with U-smash. If anything, however, the weak hitboxes shouldn't have been in his smashes in the first place. It's just outright ridiculous and doesn't make sense. His smashes are already very risky to use, and having the sourspots only negates much of the reward for using them. Every attack in his moveset, except these two smashes, have a constant damage output distributed evenly throughout their hitboxes. In my opinion, it shouldn't matter where on Ike's sword hits the opponent because that is a feature exclusive to Marth and Roy. ^-^

Well said, Ragnell. In addition, Ike's B-air and F-air (as of ver 1.0.4.) having auto-cancel properties help his spacing and baiting considerably. His smaller hurtbox, compared to many heavies, and his moveset consisting mainly of disjointed hitboxes also help. Jab to D-tilt is a reliable mix-up, especially at rage percent. D-tilt's meteor hitbox will be missed but its new combo potential and speed greatly compensates for it. You can combo with it from N-air and into F-air or B-air. One aspect of every character's metagame that has yet to fully develop is footstool combos; D-air, one of Ike's worst attacks, turns out to be useful for this occasion. My complaint about D-air is not that it is now much more difficult to land the meteor hitbox, but because it lost its lingering frames. D-smash is his worst move, in my opinion; as long as U-smash exists there is almost no reason to ever use it. Ike, lacking the means to escape combos, is susceptible to juggling, which is a weakness that is greatly exploited by several perceived top tiers, like Sheik, ZSS, and Fox. Ike's buffed F-air from 1.0.8. complements U-throw nicely, and is especially effective versus fast-fallers; this is what prevents certain top tier match-ups from invalidating Ike. Overall, his match-up spread seems above average. There are a few Ikes in the competitive community that believe the Rosalina and Sonic match-ups may be even, or possibly in his favor. Ike is one of, if not the most changed character since the 3DS version release. Went from being somewhat underwhelming to a force to be reckoned with. Meta Knight and Marth are probably next in that regard. ^-^

With the 1.1.0. version update, the metagame has shifted once again. All of the FE characters, except Roy, have received buffs in this patch. I will wait just a little while longer for the changes to settle before revamping the poll. Good to see Robin finally getting some substantial buffs. I am very much looking forward to seeing how this would impact his competitive value. ^-^

I always do a best 2 of 3 set, starting with my main. If my opponents were unable to beat my Ike the first match, I switch to either of my secondaries, Charizard or Roy for the second. I switch back to Ike for the third match if they win. I also use specialized tags, such as "4myFRIENDS", "Lizardon", and "arcPH1R3" when playing as Ike, Charizard, and Roy, respectively. The only time I ever quit a match by intentional SDing is when playing under conditions of extreme lag. What I like about Ike's taunts is that they all seem to have a unique purpose. Side Taunt for greeting, Up Taunt for swearing vengeance upon losing a stock, and Down Taunt for emerging victorious. ^-^

You make a good point. I think you might be safe when N-air is spaced from max distance; it also helps that its landing lag was reduced by 3 frames as of 1.0.8. As for Quick Draw, you could also auto-cancel it into a grab, though it stops all momentum, preventing the slide. You're definitely right that it's better to go for Grabs and Throw combos, in most cases. Still, these could be feasible as mix-ups, to some extent, as they are pretty much "great risk, great reward" type situations. ^-^

D-tilt to B-air is something I don't see many Ikes use. It's difficult to pull off consistently, but it's something worth considering as it true combos earlier than D-tilt to F-air. I also think we should utilize the auto-cancel properties of Quick Draw more outside of recovery purposes. Here is a video I made today that illustrates the above points. ^-^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81h5jo1lqnc

Glad to see that you post here as well, A2. I remember reading many of your posts in the Smashboards competitive forums. ^-^ I see that you also do not think of Roy as the best. Curious, where do you personally see Roy in the next couple of months as the metagame continues to develop?

All the more reason to buff Ike even further! Remember the "better nerf Greninja" meme? Looks like there should be one for Ike, too. lol. "better buff Ike" ^-^ Comet is right, though. Any community outside of the competitive section of Smashboards are not really the most competitively informed. It is interesting to see what every forum community thinks of these characters, though. Both Serenes Forest and GameFAQs. for instance, seem to agree Lucina and Ike are the worst, while Smashboards believes it to be Robin.

It's good to see ZeRo's impression of Ike becoming more positive. With these buffs, he can definitely be considered for at least top half of the cast, which is what his Brawl incarnation was unable to do. ^-^ Ike was pretty lacking during the 3DS launch days. His first buff package in 1.0.4. really transformed him into a competitive threat, and the 1.0.8. update made him even better.

Wow. Our rankings are nearly identical. Glad to see I'm not the only one to not put Roy at the top. ^-^ Anyway, to expand on my opening post, specifically on why I have both Marth and Ike placed higher than Roy, my placements of the FE characters in SSB4 are based mainly on the relative safety and versatility of their options. I placed Marth higher than Roy due to my belief that spaced attacks may be better in a metagame that is gradually becoming more and more defensive. Marth benefits especially since he is rewarded extra damage for proper spacing, and that tipper F-smash is scary! It also helps that he can SH auto-cancel some of his aerials. His recovery, while having worse angling than Roy's, is far less vulnerable to gimps and counters due to its faster animation. Marth can even be somewhat unpredictable with his recovery by using the first hit of Dancing Blade to momentarily stall his momentum in the air. I do not recall Roy being able to do that with Double-Edge Dance. Also, Marth's range nerf from SSBB was overblown by the community; it turns out his N-air and F-air actually had more range this time. I have Ike placed farther than Roy for mostly the same reasons. He may not share the same reward Marth has for spacing, but at least he is safe when he spaces his attacks from max distance. For his weight class, many of his attacks, aside from being powerful, come out deceptively fast. One of Ike's biggest strengths in SSB4 is his throws; his D-throw and U-throw can true combo into any of his aerials from low to mid percents, and can now even kill confirm at high percents, thanks to the F-air hitbox fix. Ike's main recovery, Aether is linear and predictable, but having Quick Draw as a second recovery allows him to play mix-up when he recovers high. What makes Ike's Quick Draw interesting when used aerially is its ability to auto-cancel, which is a property shared with his F-air and B-air. Ike can also frame trap decently with U-air and U-smash due to their lingering frames and wide hitbox, respectively. Now onto Roy himself. As ridiculous as his F-smash is, I am indifferent to it possibly being nerfed. Personally, I find that to be one of, if not the only thing keeping Roy in line with Marth and Ike at the moment, besides his combo ability. His Blazer is a very nice OoS option that can kill fairly early, especially with rage, but it is a commitment that can be heavily punished if it gets read. I still cannot help but find his fall speed more a hindrance to him than anything; of course, I can't deny that its great when it works, but when players exploit the weaknesses of Roy's fall speed, this puts him in a very precarious situation, such that he is susceptible to juggling on-stage while vulnerable to gimps off-stage. His lack of SH auto-cancels is saddening, but at least he has little landing lag on most of his aerials, especially N-air. With all that said, Roy is solid. He reaps massive reward when he is able to "get in" on his opponents and make good reads with F-smash. I currently use him as a secondary. I made a very minor revision to my ranking in the first page. Having experimented with Roy some more, I think he might end up being very close to both Marth and Ike on the tier list, with all three being considerably better than Robin and Lucina. Marth ≥ Ike ≥ Roy >>> Lucina > Robin In a customs environment, however, I could imagine it looking something like this... Marth = Ike > Roy > Lucina > Robin Feel free to disagree with my analysis, of course. ^-^

Roy's F-smash is definitely something. It has Marth levels of speed while hitting almost as hard as Ike's. Speaking of broken, how many of you believe in the possibility of it being nerfed in a future patch? ^-^

Ike's buffs cannot be understated, especially in 1.0.8. He had his landing lag reduced on four of his aerials, and his Jab now connects more reliably. Considering the many buffs he received in 1.0.4., I was so sure at the time that Ike would not be touched again. I think his faltering metagame in Japan may be largely responsible. Ike was barely viable in SSBB due to his broken Jab and his ridiculous F-air; his trademark power and range also helped him. Now, he eclipses his Brawl incarnation in nearly every aspect. His loss of power was largely compensated by his increased mobility and above average combo ability. Here's a fun fact, Ike's F-air landing lag is now the same as Marth's. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7TmFdK_bVE Roy is a beast when it comes to combos. Ike may be slower, but that does not mean he is incapable of combos, and he has surprisingly many for his weight class. His throw and combo game are definitely on par with Roy's. ^-^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_meiFWdNas Same. I still remember Ike being compared to the likes of a gorilla by the Japanese audience around the time of his return announcement. ^-^

True. It is definitely helpful for avoiding landing lag. If I recall correctly, Marth can do this too, though it is definitely more beneficial to Roy since the latter lacks any auto-cancels on short-hop. ^-^ Anyway, I asked the Smashboards competitive community yesterday to rank the FE characters; nearly all of them believe Ike and Roy to be the best, with Marth not far behind them, and it is almost unanimously agreed Robin is the worst.

I can definitely agree his N-air and Throws (minus B-throw) are amazing. As for Roy's Flare Blade, when do you find yourself using it? As an Ike main, my first instinct was to use it as an edge-guard, similarly to Eruption, but to no avail. Flare Blade's hitbox looks like it's just the flame, and it seems to lack lingering frames that Eruption has. ^-^ I have to admit that I chuckled a bit at your list. Thanks. Your explanation for fast falling speed makes perfect sense. ^-^

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, everyone. Dang... Am I really the only one here not thinking Roy is the best? Perhaps I may be underrating him? Maybe there's just something I'm not seeing that you guys are. ^-^ I don't know. Yes, he runs faster than Marth; yes, he hits almost as hard as Ike. His raw attributes in speed and power are good, but what do you guys think about him being a fast-faller? It's a trait he retained from Melee, but I find it more of a hindrance to him than a help. His recovery seems to be made worse because of it. Fast-fallers are also known to be more susceptible to combos. Also, how confident are you guys when approaching with Roy and being so up close to your opponent most of the time? Other than that, I do think Roy can be a very formidable character when played to his fullest potential and making good reads. :)

I was just wondering what the Serenes Forest community thinks of the Fire Emblem characters SSB4, specifically how they fare in its competitive environment. I originally created this topic on GameFAQs about a week ago to see their opinions, and Roy won the poll for best FE character by a landslide. Of course, it is possible that the initial hype from his announcement may have impacted the results, but who knows if he may end up actually being very good. The metagame is changing rapidly. Now, with Roy's inclusion and another balance update, where do you guys believe they all currently stand from best to worst? Which of the five do you predict will rank highest on the tier list? Lowest? I would be very interested to hear your reasoning as well. For me, personally... Marth ≥ Ike > Roy >>> Lucina ≥ Robin Marth: His tippers are still deadly, especially with rage. Dancing Blade being more reliable as of the 1.0.6. update is also something to be feared. Buffs to Jab, U-tilt, and N-air help his ground and spacing game considerably; furthermore, the knockback buff to Dolphin Slash make it a better OoS option. Ike: The buff to F-air makes it nearly reminiscent of SSBB F-air, where the hitboxes now match the entire animation of the swing, allowing it to hit foes directly above and below him better. Dash Attack also received a massive buff, being both faster and stronger, which can finally be used to kill and punish much more effectively. I think it is also worth mentioning that his Counter received a knockback buff in 1.0.6.; this buff went unnoticed for a long time until shortly after 1.0.8. was released, interestingly. Roy: Although it hasn't even been a month and that his metagame is still young, I could see potential in him. He is quite fun to use. I noticed many have quickly labeled him as the best FE character shortly after his release, even going as far to say he ranks among the Top 15 of the cast. There is certainly much less of a gap in viability, compared to his Melee counterpart; however, I am not yet convinced he is the best of the FE group, let alone a candidate for high tier, especially since he is competing against the likes of buffed Marth and buffed Ike. Some of his attacks have shorter range than Marth's due to the reverse grip. Blazer is an amazing OoS option, but a mediocre recovery. His Counter is the strongest in the game, considering non-customs, with a 1.35x damage multiplier; that is even more powerful than Shulk's Vision. I find Roy particularly lacking in the short-hop auto-cancel department. Being required to always be in his opponent's face to maximize damage makes him a very high-risk, high-reward type character. Lucina: Much like Marth, the buffs improve her ground game. The damage buffs from the previous update were nice, but she remains an inferior version of her male counterpart as she lacks any reward for good spacing. Robin: I am sure his potential is yet to be fully realized and that he can be deadly in the right hands. Don't get me wrong. Even though I have placed him last, I think he is decent for the fact that he has a projectile game as well as devastating Levin aerials and smashes. His lack of buffs in the recent update is just depressing. He seems to have fallen behind now that his fellow FE co-stars were heavily buffed. With Roy's appearance in SSB4, along with the 1.0.8. update, I doubt the FE characters would continue to be grouped at the very bottom together in future tier lists. Fire Emblem is on the rise! ^-^

Ike's Counter is disappointing, isn't it? Marth's Counter was buffed to 1.2x from SSBB and is now as powerful as Ike's. In default settings, according to the following thread, Little Mac, Palutena, and Shulk have the strongest counters, each with a 1.3x damage multiplier. http://smashboards.com/threads/counters-reflectors-and-absorbs-wip.369298/ In a customs environment, however, Ike and Shulk have the strongest counters, each with a 1.5x damage multiplier; unfortunately, Ike's Smash Counter is slow and would have otherwise been his best counter move.

For Ike, these are buffs I'd like to see, if they are to happen (copy and pasted from my post on Smashboards): In order of priority: + Aether can snap ledges backward again. Not only will this save us from accidental SDs, but Ike will also regain his spiking game from SSBB. + Damage multiplier on Counter raised from 1.2x to 1.3x. For a character that is known to hit hard, why is his Counter at least not more powerful than that of Marth and Lucina's? + D-air regains its lingering hitbox. The stricter meteor hitbox does not bother me, but could you imagine what ledge trumping would be like if he had his D-air from SSBB? + Jab damage output increased from 11% to 12%. How is it that Ike Jab cannot hit as hard, if not harder than Shulk's, who appears to be much less muscular than him? + F-air damage output increased from 12% to 13%. Same as the above. Toon Link's F-air hits harder than that. You would think that a swift blow from a huge sword, like Ragnell, would inflict just as much, if not more damage than that. Ike was buffed due to his placement in the last Japanese tier list, right? A few months later, despite considerable buffs, he is still near the bottom in the updated list. Could more buffs possibly be imminent? ^-^

I assume you use the left Control Stick and the Attack button to input smashes and tilts? What controller do you use? This can be remedied by setting your right stick to "Attack" instead of "Smash". With this, you can still use the left Control Stick and Attack button to perform smashes, and the right stick for tilts. The most ideal controllers for this set-up, in my opinion, are the GC controller, Wii Classic Controller Pro, and WIi U Pro Controller, especially if you consider yourself a competitive player. ^-^

How many of you guys play Ike? Do you use him as a main, secondary, or just randomly with other characters? For those that do, how many of you are making use of his new auto-cancelled F-air and new D-tilt from the 1.0.4. patch? Well, the next time you see a heavy character in a 1v1, like Bowser or Ganondorf, how about giving these a try? These work best when your opponent is at 0% while you are at low percent. It can be a way to devastate your foes very early in a match. ^-^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgtPAqWvcHk Auto-cancelling Ike's F-air can be a bit tricky as it requires you to be fast. It is very doable with practice, though. You pretty much have to use F-air as you are leaving the ground for it to work.

I find 8-player Smash fun for creating challenges. Most of my 8-player smashes either involve me playing as a character versus a team of seven CPUs using no items, or having one franchise being pitted against another. One of my favorites is using Ike versus the other blade wielders. All the CPUs are set to level 3; level 3 CPUs are generally easy, but I assure you they are deadly in large groups. ^-^

Ike is pretty much guaranteed mid tier with the 1.0.4 update, possibly even higher with customs enabled. I am more than satisfied his viability is now on par with the other Fire Emblem characters. ^-^ D-tilt and F-air are, without a doubt, going to be the future for Ike's metagame, especially the latter. A faster F-air, along with auto-cancelling, opens a wide array of new options, such as WoP (Wall of Pain) as seen in the following. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2XUI-g_7OA

Those are really considerable buffs for Ike. This could secure Ike a place in the mid tiers. ^-^

With the buffs Ike received from the 1.04 update, there is no way he is bottom tier material now, especially with that new auto-cancelling F-air. The Ike forums over at Smashboards are ecstatic. ^-^

Now that I think of it, I'm actually surprised Ike's Down Taunt wasn't able to do this. I guess it remains a trait exclusive to Luigi. ^-^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8kXnF0t8Sk