Life

Dude, not even Sealen lives through Marcus' slaughter. Look. ??/1 Marcus has 20 Atk and 11 AS with an Iron Sword. Sealen has 5 AS, 7 Def and 26 HP. Marcus one rounds the guy with the weakest weapon possible. You're pulling stuff out of your ass right now. Enemies have not gotten strong enough to live especially when the boss gets one rounded.

What about Chapter 15 and onwards? It's a waste of another unit spot if I'm going to field Rebecca just so that Marcus can rape everything in sight. Marcus is great, yes. But not because he kills everything. He's awesome because he has 8 Move and can get anyone out of a tight spot. He gets his own boss kill in 13x because Puzon will take an arm and a leg off of everyone else (actually, I've yet to face him up against Oswin so I wonder if Oswin can be considered for that Exp). His Silver Lance is basically a Prf weapon too. But Marcus is never a final team member. He is fantastic in the beginning of the game, though.

Gaidens: Skip 19xx and 32x. Do the rest. The way I play, I always S Rank LHM in preparation for HHM. That automatically makes me ineligible for 19xx because Nils isn't level 7+, more like level 4 or 5 (usually 5 but this last one was 4). As for 32x, it's a 0 chapter and since Tactics is probably going to be your problem thanks to Another Journey, Talon's Alight, Crazed Beast and The Berserker, you're going to want to skip it so that you don't lose extra turns. Promotions: Be careful with this one. Once I re-unlock HHM, I'm going to do a run and count up all of the money so that I can properly plan out a new S Rank run. Including Eliwood, you'll want to promote about 5~6 characters max and use a lot of prepromotes (Harken, Geitz and Pent are all fantastic). Also save a bit for stat-boosters, these will come in handy. Exp units: Short answer - Yes. Your main team will be the guys that you bring to Light and those should be rotating round in order to gain Exp at equal rates. The Exp units should also be rotating round and getting those kills. After that, field at least 1 thief, 1 healer and Ninils in every chapter possible. The thieves will help keep your Funds afloat by stealing EVERYTHING that's not nailed down. Ninils is an extra... anything + 10 Exp per turn and a pure healer before Serra or Prissy promote will get full staff Exp rather than 1/2 staff exp when they promote. Prf Weapons: Once again conserve these but use them when you need to. But use the Hammerne (1800G for the whole thing) on the Mani Katti (90 uses for 600G) and Hector's first Wolf Beil while sticking the second in the storage for good. Don't waste the last use of the Hammerne on the Rapier, use it on another expensive weapon instead. Oh and both Forblaze and Aureola are free too. Tips for characters: Raven is awesome here. Same with Guy. They get HHM bonuses which really help. Marcus, Serra and Prissy are all great too. If you plan out your money properly, I'd suggest promoting a thief. The Fell Contract is worth 50k but Assassins are a major help to the Exp rank (1.8x Exp if Silencer activates). Aside from that, good luck.

Figured I'd dispute our man CE's point in here. The other topic did get locked. You're doing it wrong. Because Lowen has PHAIL offense, he can't do as much damage as Sain or Kent can. The point of doing higher damage isn't to kill all the time, but rather to set up Exp kills. Lowen might doing 1/2 damage while Sain/Kent do anywhere from 3/4 to 2/3 damage in any single round. It seems like you're not taking the Exp rank in consideration at all as most of your main offense units are actually there to set up the Exp kills. As for the support and promotion, you're also missing the point. A HHM S Rank run requires the rotation of units in order to satisfy the Exp rank as that is considered the hardest rank to 5* when compared to Tactics. Just because you can 5* it on ENM without rotating units (I did that on a quick runthrough because I lost my save data) doesn't mean that it happens for EHM. Same idea for HNM vs. HHM. Lowen, Kent, Sain and Oswin will all be played. All of them even though they're going for the same promotion items. In fact, it's better to promote two of the 4 (Kent and Sain) in order to help Tactics (2 8 move units) and Exp (won't leave enemies with about half their health, more like 1/4) at the same time. I'll agree with you that Kent should be higher than Sain but you haven't listed the proper reason why. Kent's Spd >> Sain's Spd while Kent's Con = Sain's Con. Therefore, Kent will be doubling enemies much sooner than Sain, allowing him to generate a proper offense more quickly. Kent also (arguably) has the better affinity for when it comes to making supports. I think you're overrating defense a little much. No. This is actually the wrong thinking when it comes to an S Rank run. Hector hits 20/0 long before he promotes. At this point, he really just becomes a hindrance until promotion because he is forced onto the field but cannot fight because of the Exp rank. As a result of not being able to fight, he also hurts the Tactics rank because he's a waste of a slot that potentially could have gone to another unit. Imagine that you could choose to field another unit once Hector hit 20/0. Would you or would you rather keep him on the field? I understand that Hector is a free slot but the point is, I'm handicapped once he hits 20/0. I've got 10 fighting units and 1 useless one. I'd much rather have 11 fighting units and 0 useless ones. Wait, you lost me. Didn't I just make the exact same argument for Hector for what I've bolded? Because I smell a bad double standard. Matthew might not be the best for Tactics and Exp but he is the reason why you pass the Funds ranking. Not only that but he is vital for beating the game because it is impossible to beat Another Journey without him. If Hector is at the top of the S Rank list because he doesn't cost a unit slot, then Matthew deserves at least the spot beneath Hector because it is impossible to beat Chapter 11 without him (none of the guards drop Door Keys IIRC but I'm only Normal right now because of my lost data). And that's without even bringing up the merits of his thieving utility for the first half of the game. I thought so before but now I'm absolutely positive that you don't give two shits about the Exp Ranking. Serra and Prissy are vital for the S Rank because they draw on an unlimited pool of Exp every single turn. Look at your list for proof. Ninils is second on it because she can be an extra unit but she also supplies a free 10 Exp per turn. Serra and Prissy provide necessary healing for your units but also do not have their staff exp cut in half, unlike promoted magic users. If you play a defensive S Rank run (which you obviously do based on your reasoning for Lowen > Sain & Kent by a mile), then you should realize that Serra or Prissy are worth 2x Canas, 2x Pent, 2x Erk or 2x Lucius because they primarily heal (allowing Canas/Pent/Erk/Lucius to attack and gain even more Exp) and gain double the Exp that any one of the guys that I mentioned because they are unpromoted. Staff users have their staff Exp cut in half if they promote. Please consider the Exp ranking next time. As for the list at hand, Lucius > Canas for a multitude of reasons that Narga posted above from me, Under and Mikey. And I'll try staying here, CATS, but I've got midterms on Friday so my debating skills won't be great, I'm just warning you.

Before I start the actual meat of my argument, I want to mention the availability boost that Marcia has over Astrid. Marcia is fighting a full 4 chapters before Astrid even exists. This is pretty significant because Marcia is there for Prisoner Release, a chapter based on pure stealth. With Marcia's 8 move and 22 Wt, Marcia can easily rescue Brom and Nephenee so that the pair can escape. Assuming that Marcia rescues one of them, she accounts for 20 BExp by herself as well as contributing towards the 700 BExp for leaving undetected. Assuming that you want either Brom or Nephenee (2 pretty good units), I'd say that Marcia is pretty invaluable here. Feel free to disagree but how else are you going to recruit those two and make it to the exit safely? Kieran joins automatically but the other two don't. Combat-wise, Marcia does pretty well. She obviously fails in her joining chapter from being underleveled but can still double almost anything not a Myrmidon. To be exact, we're talking about 23/27 of the non-Myrmidon enemies. And this is base level Marcia we're talking about. Her Att is pretty atrocious here too but then again, she's holding a Slim Lance. If she were holding an Iron Lance (no AS loss), Marcia will be one-rounding the mages while only taking chip damage thanks to her 6 Res. She's also facing ~65 displayed Hit from most enemies (pretty much all lances and axes while swords are closer to ~70). Once again, this is just base level. Anyway, let's jump to A Guiding Wind, Astrid's join chapter. Marcia's gotten about 5 levels from BExp (completely fair when you consider that she's partially responsible for the 700 BExp in Prisoner Release plus more in the subsequent chapters) and 4 levels of fighting (1 in 9, 1.5 in 11 and 1.5 in 12) so she's sitting comfortably at level 14. Marcia - Level 14 Pegasus Knight - C Lance 12 Atk, 16 AS, 30 Hit, 5 Crit, 40 Avo, 8 CEva, 25 HP, 10 Def, 9 Res Steel Lance: 22 Atk, 14 AS, 100 Hit, 5 Crit, 36 Avo Javelin: 18 Atk, 16 AS, 100 Hit, 5 Crit, 40 Avo (1~2 Range) Marcia's on easy street here. She doubles everything but the fast Myrmidons, Halberdiers, Ravens and Chuck Norris, and that's when she's holding the Steel Lance. Javelin cuts it down to 2 Myrmidons, all the Ravens and Norris. She's almost one-rounding the soldiers (she kills a couple and leaves the rest with like 4 HP) and 2 archers, leaves the Fighters with 1/3 of their HP and kills everyone else. That means that Marcia is killing over half of the enemies that she doubles. And she's not doing chip damage, unlike... Astrid - Level 1 Bow Knight - D Bows 6 Atk, 7 AS, 15 Hit, 3 Crit, 17 Avo, 3 CEva, 20 HP, 5 Def, 4 Res Iron Bow: 12 Atk, 7 AS, 100 Hit, 3 Crit, 17 Avo To put it lightly, Astrid is pathetic at base level. I don't give a fuck how much Exp she gets per hit, I'm more worried about how much damage Astrid is doing. Which is a measly 3 damage per arrow on average. I call that absolutely disgraceful. 10 years later AKA 3 months later without exaggerating: Marcia plays a huge role in the following chapters while Astrid can basically be considered a footnote. Training: Marcia recruits Makalov but can also use her flying advantage to sit in places where she can't get hit. If she does that, she can use a torch and light up a portion of the map that not even Mist (Torch staff) or Volke (increased vision) can see. Astrid is stuck to being a regular combat unit here as her movement means nothing with the fog. The Feral Frontier: Really? I mean really? One word: Desert. Marcia can move, Astrid can't. Utterly pathetic on Astrid's part. The Atonement: Marcia's actually a proper combat unit. Assuming that Astrid has been given BExp and babying, she'll be at around level 11 or 12 (nothing from the desert) at the highest. Marcia's going to be at least level 17 by now if not higher. She can clear the way for others. Astrid still can't. Day Breaks: Swamp? Check. Mages? Check. Both things that Marcia is fantastic at dealing with while Astrid's 4 +.25 Res can suck it, especially after Marcia equips the Full Guard. Oh and Marcia is great for taking out that annoying Meteor mage in 17-4 by turn 2. Astrid could... If she weren't so weak. And then the CLA (Crimea Liberation Army) starts going. Marcia's just promoted while Astrid's still lagging behind a bit from losing out in the desert. Marcia - Level 1 Falcon Knight - B Lance, E Sword - B Keiran - Full Guard 17 Atk, 20 AS, 49 Hit, 8 Crit, 58 Avo, 10 CEva, 32 HP, 14 Def, 13 Res Steel Lance: 27 Atk, 20 AS, 119 Hit, 8 Crit, 58 Avo Killer Lance: 27 Atk, 20 AS, 119 Hit, 38 Crit, 58 Avo Javelin: 23 Atk, 20 AS, 109 Hit, 8 Crit, 58 Avo (1~2 Range) Iron Sword (forged): 27 Atk, 20 AS, 139 Hit, 17 Crit, 58 Avo Astrid - Level 19 Bow Knight - C Bow - C Sothe 13 Atk, 16 AS, 47 Hit, 8 Crit, 47 Avo, 10 CEva, 28 HP, 11 Def, 9 Res Steel Bow: 22 Atk, 16 AS, 117 Hit, 8 Crit, 47 Avo Killer Bow: 22 Atk, 16 AS, 122 Hit, 38 Crit, 47 Avo This is kinda pathetic. Astrid's like a weaker Marcia who can't fly and can't double as well. Let's look at specific stuff, shall we? AS: The only thing that Marcia cannot double are the Ravens (5 of them). Astrid w/o the Knight Ward cannot double the archer (who counters her), the Sword Knights, Kayachey (counters her), a Lance Knight (1/3), the Paladin (counters her) and the Ravens. That's 11/36 enemies, with 3 of those countering her. That's not that good. Sure you can put forth the argument that giving her the Knight Ward will help take away some of the problems but the thing is that her levels come more from her doubled CExp at this point. Which means that she needs it during the chapter. Aside from babying and BExp, how many more resources do I need to pour down her throat in order to make her as decent as Marcia? Atk and weapons: Marcia has 1~2 range with a Javelin. She beats Astrid's Atk when she holds it. Not to mention that up close, she destroys Astrid with any of her weapons. Pathetic. As for forges, Astrid doesn't get one yet as she's going to want a forged Iron Axe as soon as she promotes to gain as much Atk out of it as possible. But since Marcia's just promoted and she's probably going to want a Steel Sword soon, why would would I force her to use a 5 Mt Iron Sword when I can forge a 10 Mt and 9 Crit IS for just under 7k? Any sane person would easily give her the forge. Durability: Marcia destroys Astrid. 4+ HP, 3+ Def, 4+ Res and 11+ Avo. It's not even a contest. Supports: Marcia still has Tanith to come who sports Earth affinity. Astrid's stuck with Sothe and Makalov as Gatrie's not a proper support for her thanks to his wonderful 5 move. And Kieran's not even a bad support as he gives Marcia Avo while she tacks on Atk from her Fire affinity. And just so you know, Marcia never loses her flying utility. She can bait Naesala in Entrusted so that one of the hawks can talk to him without dying, she can fly over the giant cliff in the middle of Defending Talrega, the narrow paths in Without A King are nothing to her since she can sit on top of the water if she pleases... Must I keep going? All Astrid has is a bit more more on the rest of the army and canto. Aside from that, she's a plain Jane. An ordinary knight. Skipping ahead to Clash!, we now observe Marcia and Astrid getting it on in their later levels. Astrid's caught up completely and ditched Paragon now. I think that 20/11 seems like a reasonable level. Marcia - Level 11 Falcon Knight - A Lances, D Swords - B Keiran, B Tanith - Full Guard 22 Atk, 26 AS, 73 Hit, 11 Crit, 81 Avo, 14 CEva, 38 HP, 16 Def, 16 Res Silver Lance 37 Atk, 26 AS, 143 Hit, 11 Crit, 81 Avo Killer Lance: 32 Atk, 26 AS, 148 Hit, 41 Crit, 81 Avo Spear: 34 Atk, 26 AS, 143 Hit, 16 Crit, 81 Avo (1~2 Range) Iron Blade: 31 Atk, 26 AS, 143 Hit, 11 Crit, 81 Avo Astrid - Level 11 Paladin - A Bows, D Axes - A Makalov, B Sothe 20 Atk, 23 AS, 78 Hit, 12 Crit, 86 Avo, 15 CEva, 38 HP, 17 Def, 14 Res Silver Bow: 33 Atk, 23 AS, 153 Hit, 12 Crit, 86 Avo Killer Bow: 29 Atk, 23 AS, 153 Hit, 42 Crit, 86 Avo Steel Axe (forged): 36 Atk, 23 AS, 143 Hit, 21 Crit, 86 Avo Hand Axe: 27 Atk, 23 AS, 133 Hit, 12 Crit, 86 Avo (1~2 Range) And lookie here! Astrid has FINALLY caught up... And yet Marcia's had a lot less blood, sweat and tears pumped into her. Mar's 2 range with the Spear is better than Astrid's with a Silver Bow, Astrid's best ranged weapon even though it's a +1 Att win. Marcia also wins in the close-up category even though it's by a small margin. Defensively, they're virtually identical. Astrid has 5+ Avo and +1 Def vs. Marcia's +2 Res while they both sport 38 HP. Neither of them have doubling woes as Marcia only beats Astrid at doubling Swordmasters (Marcia ORKOs all of them but the Brave Sword guy). However, the question of one-rounding now comes into play. To save space, I actually spoilered the enemy stuff. But the fact remains that Marcia one rounds 4 extra Paladins and a Cat while Astrid is better at tackling the three Wyvern Lords that crash the party. 5 - 3 = 2 extra kills for Marcia. Marcia is still better at combat than Astrid at this point. Overall, Marcia is a much better unit than Astrid. She's useful right off the bat and if she's given some early BExp (2+ levels before Blood Runs Red), she can easily become a great combat unit with flying mobility. Astrid gets stuck with shitty weapons before promotion, comes way too underleveled and only catches up to Marcia in combat ability right at the end of the game. But if Marcia >>>>>>>>> Astrid in Chapter 13 and Marcia = Astrid thirteen chapters later with only three more left in the game, Marcia must be better than Astrid. And I'm DONE.

I'll open it. Should be fun, even if I get my ass kicked.

Jeigan? I refuse to use the FEDS name.

Best: Hector Worst: Roy

*cough**Elphin**cough* He's not exactly the main character but it's close.

Meh, that's fine. At least nobody's touched my Karol and Guillo. Anyone taken Hayden yet? And I'm also claiming Kalas, Sagi and Milly (might as well just claim the entire BK cast).

Shotgun Guillo, Gibari and Mizuti from the Baten Kaitos games. Anyone touches them and that person is DEAD. Also claiming Karol Capel, Raven and Neimi (if nobody has her).

Eirika - 32 Seth - 37 Franz - 31 Gilliam - 29 Vanessa - 32 Moulder - 22 Ross - 26 Garcia - 27 Neimi - 28 Colm - 30 Artur - 32 Lute - 38 Natasha - 41 Joshua - 36 Ephraim - 31 Forde - 30 Kyle - 30 Orson - 16 Tana - 41 Amelia - 37 Innes - 32 Gerik - 37 Tethys - 30 Marisa - 31 L'Arachel - 28 Dozla - 16 Saleh - 27 Ewan - 23 Cormag - 30 Rennac - 22 Duessel - 31 Knoll - 19 Myrrh - 31 Syrene - 30 Caellach - 31 Riev - 20 Ismaire - 34 Selena - 30 Glen - 32 Hayden - 30 Valter - 20 Fado - 29 Lyon - 1

What about FE9, then? I'll take Marcia vs. anyone of similar caliber.

I want to debate! FE7 or FE9 if anyone doesn't mind. Anyone got a good match-up involving a Peg Knight on either side?

My own personal opinion on the matter is to leave Ranked LHM as is. Since this is a Ranked HHM tier list, S Rank LHM discussion really has no place in the tier list. LHM should only count for the levels that you get out of it and the White Gem. Oh and Fox, if you want to say that LHM should be included in the HHM list, then Serra >>> Prissy as Prissy doesn't exist in Lyn's story. The 3.5 chapter lead that Serra has over a non-existant Prissy will switch to a 10.5 chapter lead. There's no way Prissy can top that as Serra is vital for S Ranking LHM. The other big change I can see is Wil shooting up as he's actually decent even when locked in bows.

I'm so glad that my girlfriend has both games and a PS2. I've beaten CoM on my GBA but this is the first time I'm playing the actual games. They're incredibly fun (I'm at Oogie Boogie currently).

Snagged a solo spot in 5th with 15 points. Pretty proud of myself, to tell the truth... I'm just posting the ones I got right. 5. See my above question but substitute supports for growth rates. As for my answer, I say Naesala/Nealuchi and then Naesala/Leanne. But only Naesala/Nealuchi makes sense. 2 points. The other groups are actually much closer than Naesala/Nealuchi. 6. This question can't be fair. Berserker is slow as hell, Assassin and SM are both on foot and Paladin and Valkyrie are horse-based. I think Paladin wins it but SM could be the one too. I saw Paladin and then SM. I almost went with Valkyrie as my second choice. Thank god I didn't. 1 point. 7. God, I hate this quiz... Dance. There are no dancers in this game, only Herons. However, Dance has always been the "Canto" of the previous games. Second answer is Evil Eye. 2 points. Answer speaks for itself. 8. 16 and then 15. I did the math, 16 is the closer number. Forgot to calculate for armour. 1 point. 9. Deghinsea/Kurthnaga. It's the only truly close relationship. Not BK/Seph because that one should read Zel/Seph, Ashera doesn't actually know Seph, Hetzel is free to attack Rafiel in the last chapter of the game and Pelleas doesn't care about Izuka THAT much. My second guess is Hetzel/Rafiel. Again, answer speaks for itself. 2 points. 10. Laura? I suppose it would be her because I can think of reasons why the others wouldn't even if they're flimsy. After Laura, I guess Gareth but he doesn't attack unless provoked. Guess she doesn't like birds. 2 points. 11. I think this one's easier than it looks because it looks impossible. I've put my first guess for each tome followed by my second. A - Arcfire - Elfire B - Elthunder - Arcthunder C - Wind - Elwind D - Light - Purge E - Worm - Carreau I had no chance here... 2 points. 12. German. Followed by Italian. Just a hunch, I suppose. The game code doesn't give away the answer. I actually looked at the code. I couldn't find any differences between the languages. 1 point. 13. Geez, no idea... I say Swarm followed by Iron Axe. I'm honestly stumped on this one. Lucky guess... 2 points. Like I said, I did a lot better than I expected.

I'll give you the stat leveling thing for right now. But the only reason why is because that first level that characters "don't get stats" is actually made up for later in the game during their leveling. They always end up at the same stats when using fixed mode, you just can't seen when that first stat growth from the first level is taken away. Because what you're suggesting is that they actually end up with 1 extra point in every stat. You're STILL missing the point. Why is Mia the person to gain that absurd amount of BExp? Because she gets good? Because she needs it? She needs it as much as Soren needs it, who needs maybe a level. So why so much BExp when it can be saved for the future? I don't. I think Soren should be higher. How have you not understood that? I'm really not liking your logic because it makes you look stupid. If you can field the best 10 units in the game, WHY WOULDN'T YOU? Why take someone who is BARELY above mediocre instead of someone who is much better than her? For a challenge? Wait, what? Wrath doubles crit rate but doesn't actually do anything... Maybe the more shots a unit does on an enemy means the more chances to crit... Naw, sounds way too obvious to be true!

Since my last post covered all the other points, I'm just addressing this one comment. Also, I don't play FE10 and I don't see why FE10 should have an impression on the FE9 tier list. If anything, it should be the other way round, with the FE10 tier list being affected by the FE9 list. Please tell me you're joking. My figures come from BEFORE Chapter 8. Guess what? You don't get BExp BEFORE Chapter 8! There's NO BExp on the table for either of them at that point! I can continue on past Chapter 7 and show you how I distribute BExp (amount of BExp divided by characters in army = total BExp each person deserves) and how it doesn't affect the case at hand if you really want. Also, Soren has much more of a chance of ORKOing because he has Adept. He also attacks enemies that most have shitty Res while Mia is stuck to Def and terrible swords. Soren can and probably will start ORKOing before Mia based on these two factors unless you forge a weapon for Mia which means that Soren deserves his own forge. But once they both ORKO enemies, the point becomes moot because as I've said "Soren > Mia because Soren Earlygame > Mia Earlygame and Soren Mid and Endgame = Mia Mid and Endgame". You have to read between the lines. I debate things based on equality. I give everyone an equal chance at anything and if Unit A can't produce better than Unit B with as few experimental errors as possible, then obviously Unit B > Unit A. It's the scientific approach.

Every calculation rounds down. It doesn't matter if it's fixed mode or random, you still round down. You round down with Hit %s and Avo and Crit and everything else, why wouldn't stats round down? I don't think you understand what I'm saying. If I pump BExp into Mia, she gets good. If I pump BExp into Soren, he gets good. If I pump BExp into anyone, they get good. It's free for everyone. That cancels out your entire "Opportunity Cost" argument. It's free for everyone but why is Mia the only one who deserves it? Because she gets good if you give her BExp? Hell, EVERYONE gets better with BExp. In my mind, it's more fair if you share out BExp to everyone on an equal basis and then evaluate who needs more than who. Mia needs maybe a level max from the first time she gets BExp. Believe me, I just finished Chapter 8 of Hard right now for the hell of it. I gave her no BExp and she still held the West passage pretty easily at level 8 (she gained 2 levels the chapter before). This isn't personal experiance, it's Mia can do it no matter what the case. I don't use Mia usually, mind you. I had an argument on GF a little while back which consists of Mist requiring 3.6x her regular share of BExp, which then constitutes as babying. To me, babying is having to give ANY extra attention to a unit so that they may grow like the rest of the team. Giving a unit skills, special weapons or stat boosters (unless it's more than 1) doesn't fall under this catagory because they don't actually affect the Exp gain (Paragon isn't acquirable in the game). However, giving more than the usual amount of BExp to a character does, along with weakening enemies so that said character can get the kill does. And the requirement of babying therefore drops the units value on the tier list because they "can't hold their own weight without help". Why would you? Two mono-sword users who are in the upper-mid tiers should be fielded over units in higher tiers? The only time that I can think of when this would happen is a themed run. Now that you've mentioned supports... Mia gets 2 meh supports (both Rhys and Largo are overshadowed by others), one of them being late in the game, and Ilyana. But Largo is her prefered support as it is her only support that gives her Avo to cover her frail defenses. But c'mon, are you actually going to USE Largo? As for Zihark, he's also got meh supports but his Muarim support is actually really good because it offers a ton of Avo and some Def. Not to mention that Zihark has an A with Muarim before Mia even meets Largo! I'd like to say that Mia vs. Zihark comes down to preferences, rather than proof. Mia gets Vantage which gives her a strong (but not definitive) case for getting Wrath. Zihark gets Adept which is nice and also wants a shot at Wrath (as I've said before, it's not a counter to say that giving Adept to Zihark stops Mia from being a killing machine) because Adept adds to his chances of activating Wrath (better defenses means more of a chance to survive at 1/2 HP). Mia gets a much better chance at wielding the Sonic Sword than Zihark but Zihark maxes Str, Skl and Spd, meaning that Adept activates almost every third hit. The only things stat-wise Mia has on him are lolMag, Luck and Res. Really, it's too close to call just for me to debate it with myself so I'd need to pick a side, have someone else pick the other side and debate it properly. But it's kinda hard for me to accept Mia > Zihark even though I can sit with it for now.

Before I start, I'm just going to say two things. 1. Not all of us are stupid idiots over there. I prefer to debate the FE7 tier list personally because there's a lot less fingerpointing and a lot more proper information that flies around. Don't lump me in with everyone else at GF. 2. We basically have 2 tier lists floating around, Smash's and Snowy_One's. Both contradict each other and both have problems with them. This one makes a lot more sense to ASIDE from Mia > Soren. That's the only "obvious" problem I see with it. And obvious is in quotations because I have a problem with you, you guys probably don't. Anyways, I read through most of the links that you gave me but a couple went right over my head because something was wrong with what was written. #32 - Your information is wrong. All averages are rounded down. I expect you guys to know that, it's on the Calculations link for the FE9 page. Mia has 6 Spd, not 7 according to your calculations. #14 - I love this post. Mostly because the writer is so inflamed when he's writing it... Anyways, PERSONAL EXPERIANCE DOESN'T MATTER. Once again, you guys should know this. Everyone in the game aside from like Bastian is good enough to rip through hordes of enemies if given lots of BExp. And it's not that I don't think the amount of BExp given is way too high, rather that giving that much BExp to any unit will usually achieve similar results. I can BExp Astrid, Makalov or Tormod up to level 16/0 once I get them and they will do the same thing that Mia did in your example, that is kill. Well, maybe not Astrid until she promotes but I threw her in there because she comes underleveled. My point is, you are using emotional reasoning in that case to say "Mia is awesome". It proves that Mia is good if you give her that much BExp but it doesn't prove that she is better than any other unit. #5 - How about we change that to "Zihark is pointless if you have Mia in play" and vice-versa? Why would you ever use them both in the same team? Not only that but the excuse "If you give Wrath to Zihark, then Mia doesn't have Wrath and can't reach her potential" is dumb. That's like saying that Karel should be lower on the FE7 tier list because he stops you from getting Harken and the Brave Sword. It's a cop out excuse, in my opinion. That's the big problems that I've found with someof those posts. I can examine it in depth if you want but I wait here and ask you to prove why Mia is better than Soren. I've already brought my case to the table.

Very well. But I haven't read it up, yeah. Too much to go through. I'm just assuming the one difference between your list and mine (GameFAQs). I'm assuming that Mia's so high because she gets Wrath, correct? What if she doesn't? There's only 1 Wrath scroll in the game and Mia's not the only contender for it. Zihark would love it, any Paladin would love it... Hell, anyone with a much better defence and half decent offence wants that Wrath scroll. And Wrath works better when coupled with Resolve, another skill that Mia would have to fight for. Except, she then has to always keep her HP under 20 with only 15 Def to back it up to actually use these awesome skills. Her Avo might be high (80 is rather nice at 20/20) but since she's not getting to 20/20, I assume that at Endgame, she'll be at 20/12 at highest with 73 Avo. Since most enemies in Endgame have about 120 Hit, that's 47% of the time that Mia gets hit. And with enemy Atk floating at about 30 Atk on average (not counting Laguz), Mia's got survivability issues and can't actually use Wrath to the best of her abilities than say Nephenee or Oscar or anyone else who might want it (Zihark's out of the question for the same reason). If you give Mia Wrath, sure she's good. But she's not entitled to it in any way. And then after Wrath comes the Earlygame problem AKA I can only do 2 damage to anything or I can get doubled while holding the Armourslayer for some damage. Without even looking at the defense, let's focus in on Mia's chip shot offence as I like to call it. She's got 7 Str with a 40% growth rate. Which isn't bad, right? But if you look at the units around her who are also growing (Ike, Boyd, Oscar, Soren and I guess we can also say Ilyana for once we get her next chapter), they have higher Str/Mag growths than her depending on what they use to attack. "But Myrmidons were never meant to be hard hitting, they're about being fast, right?" calls out little Timmy in the back of the class. However, her Spd is another problem in and of itself. You see, Mia overkills in Spd, reaching the Myrmidon max cap at about level 18 of 20. I guess you can say that the overkill is to make up for the fact that she'll take AS penalties for wielding weapons but here's the rub. Mia's already passed the level where she doesn't take a penalty from Steel Swords ages ago (level 14 to be exact)! I call that a waste of growth right there. If Mia's going to max Spd anyways in 1st job, forgetting 2nd, then shouldn't she have a bit more Str instead of such a ridiculous Spd growth? Using Chapter 17 as the "promotion chapter", the lowest possible AS she needs to double the entire map is 18! Those last 2 points would be a lot better if they had been placed in Str. The overkill in Spd doesn't actually prove anything, though. It's just me saying that having that much Spd when she could have it as Str is kinda pointless for her. Let's look at the actual offensive output. From what I can see, most of the enemies in Chapter 7 have about 6-7 Def, with Myrmidons and Mages being lower than that and Knights sitting at 14 on average. Assuming that Mia gets the Armourslayer (Ike's got the Regal Sword, why should he also get the Armourslayer), she has 2 options for attack. She can either double with an Iron Sword (12 Atk - 7 Def = 5 Damage a shot) or equip the Armourslayer and go for big numbers (15 Atk - 7 Def = 8 Damage but with only 3 AS). And this is before you factor in WTD for Mia because this level is mostly soldiers and knights. It's either mediocre chip damage (Soldiers have about 25 HP - most common enemy in chapter) or a much higher shot which gets Mia doubled by some of the soldiers. When you factor in her Def (7 Def, 6 Res) and enemy attacks (Soldiers do about 8 damage with WTA, Knights do more...), coupled with Mia's 21 HP, she's a 3HKO unit on your side. The only thing she has to combat that is her 32 Avo... but has a WTD so she loses 10 Avo to Soldiers while they get 10 hit. 85 is the average Hit for a Soldier so he now has a 73% chance of hitting Mia and Mia has a 39% chance of dying in 3 consecutive hits. Ouch. Her rocky start only deteriorates. Chapter 8 has Cavs to the south, Knights to the east and Soldiers + Archers to the west. I wonder which exit she's defending. Mia gets her chances in Chapter 9 to shine (Brigands in the north and Mages to the south) but 10 is once again almost fully lances and 0 axes to fight. And then Zihark comes in Chapter 11, taking over Mia's duties with ease. As for Soren, he's immidiately useful. Assuming that you've saved the Seraph Robe in Chapter 1, he uses it right away in Chapter 4 just to survive. But Soren's not like Mia by being a defensive liability and only doing minor damage; no, he's roasting enemies with Wind magic because enemies have an average Res of 1 and he's got 8 Atk, doubling most of the map. However, unlike Mia, he has Adept on his side, adding to his damage (8% of the time is a bit weak but since he doubles a lot, his chances of it activating become greater). And since Soren's a backliner, while Mia's a frontliner, Soren's eating less attacks than Mia would. Now let's fastforward to Chapter 7, where Mia joins. Soren's about... Well, he was level 5 in my game at this point so I think that he's at a reasonable level. Anyways, Soren now has 8 Mag and and 9 Spd, along 10 Skl which gives Adept a 10% chance of happening, or once every 5 attacks (Soren still doubles). He still has that 1 AS penalty but either way, he's got 8 AS which allows him to double 25/32 enemies on the map. He's doing 8 damage a shot, doubling most enemies and gets well protected. Soren's also more effective on the Knights than Mia with an armourslayer, mostly because he actually doubles them. Soren's earlygame > Mia's. Once you get to the endgame, both are respectively good and about equal in use. Mia can dodge her way through anybody (if she's not relying on Wrath as her damage output) and Soren can rip anything to bits with his magic. I'd give the higher spot to Soren based solely on earlygame performance but he shouldn't be much higher than Mia. PS: Our own tier list has Mia WAY down. I don't personally agree with it but she's not upper-mid material.

I have problems with your tier list. Namely with Mia > Soren. What's your reasoning before I go and blast it?