blinkingbrave

Let's see... The list could probably go much longer for C-A, but I'll be good and restrain myself... Favorite C-A chains: Marx/Nyx Marx/Sakura Camilla/Zero Leon/Takumi Leon/Foleo Elise/Marx Felicia/Hinata Favorite C-S chains: Marx/Kamui Nyx/Suzukaze Charlotte/Saizou Shara/f!Kamui Ryouma/Oboro

Well, I don't really want to argue about the particular point in the actual text (because I feel like we've had discussions on similar root ideas), but you'll have to convince me on the quality of narrative elements being purely subjective. Under the cut because this is kinda off topic: On topic, I know I don't really talk about Leon and Camilla in this scene because I find Marx kinda the linchpin, as the person whose support is most important. Not that they aren't saying anything interesting, but it's just... that scene the first time around felt to me more about Marx's lack of dialogue than what everyone else was saying. It felt designed to build up tension before Marx's reaction, rather than to simply say what they said. Not that what they said didn't add to their characters, but that felt to me like the secondary objective.

But the point is, he doesn't say how he would react or even who's judging her a traitor. 'Betrayed us' doesn't say anything one way or the other about him, his actions, even his thoughts on the matter, etc. It's not a line that's blatant and murder-y, even in the other translation. You've still got the same context, the same need for reading comprehension (most importantly), the same detached ambiguity Marx applies to a good deal of his lines, etc. And I hadn't said Marx wouldn't turn on Kamui (at least, I don't think I did earlier, and if I did I must have misspoke because I don't believe it). Not gonna go into what I think would've happened because it's complicated and really just not relevant as it never actually happened. My only point is that there's nothing to indicate to what direction he would go or (more importantly with Marx) to what degree. Any interpretation requires reading comprehension and some personal analysis, and honestly, since it falls on opinion, there's really no right or wrong conclusion. Even if I had said Marx wouldn't turn on Kamui (in truth, I believe the situation far more complicated), there's nothing to say that idea is just definitively wrong (though whoever's presenting it should certainly have some other lines to support their idea). Anymore than the idea that he would turn on her is wrong either, tbh. We just don't know what would've happened, leaving everything speculation. Ultimately, like interpretation of the passage itself, whether or not this is a problem with the narrative falls on opinion, so I'm not gonna bother arguing about it. There's really nothing that objectively says that Marx basing his decision on whether or not Garon is a slime monster is a problem with the narrative. Obviously, it's going to feel personally inferior to whatever you and I think should happen (unless you're someone who wanted exactly this, I suppose) because our headcanons cater directly to what we personally want to see in the story. And are based on interpretations/opinions the story may not have even held/pushed/emphasized as much as we did to begin with. And don't necessarily have to include the burden of considering the entire narrative and its message, the other two narratives and their message, all the lil details of the characters, etc.

Here's a gameplay video with the original Japanese. Marx's first passage. Edit: Actually, ya know what... I'm just going to remove everything I just said. So, just the passage.

Yeah, that's essentially right. I already paraphrased it earlier in the thread when it first came up, so I'm not gonna do it again, haha. If the translation/summary you follow (because I guess you were keeping up with a incorrect one? Sorry, I don't really know where this idea came from) has the Japanese text, too, I'd bet plugging it into Google translate should give you at least some garbled idea, if you want something other than my word. I know a lot of stuff following the game came out really fast, so I guess this line fell through the cracks?

Ahh... IK causes most of my complaints on Nohr, too. Tbh, it doesn't really bother me too much (beyond some Garon missed opportunity but even then... the outcome is predictable either way. Edit: And Takumi. Forgot bc I could kinda take or leave him anyways) mostly because outside of Garon (and Takumi), a lot of what it introduces affect the 'action' parts of the story, which I really just don't consider the meat of Nohr's story. I mean... Ultimately, the three stories just aren't meant to stand alone, and each one is pretty clearly written with the other two in mind. If you were to theoretically only look at one version while ignoring the other two, of course your experience would be missing a lil something, ya know? So... I suppose it's a lil problematic given that three stories can be seen as running concurrently in time, but at the same time, they all make FE14 together so the narrative choice is kinda to be expected, I guess. Edit: Not really a fan... but I certainly find it better than the one vanilla Hoshido route we probably would've gotten otherwise.

Yeeeeah, I duuno much about Yuugiri (edit: not to mention that line is about the same degree of 'tame' as some of her story lines anyways, iirc), but those Zero lines actually go somewhere meaningful to his character (that's kinda in his other supports anyways) if you look at 'em all as a chain.

Adding on to what some people have already said, some of the dialogue lines are actually character-expanding stuff not touched on elsewhere (to my knowledge), not just fluff. I doubt there's much there that's going to change your mind about a character if you didn't like them, but I've caught a few lil tidbits that added a cute lil detail to some characters. Edit: I suppose we don't really know which lines will still be there post-localization, but those particular lines are all harmless, so I dunno why they'd go.

As for unbiased vs biased, I suppose it really depends on exactly how it's executed. A balance of different biased opinions, something where the opinions all come from different sources but agree (a la your example), an actual interaction with human!Garon would all be a mix of unbiased and/or biased opinions that I think would give a better picture. It's also pretty dependent on who human!Garon was, because legitimately good guy Garon is veeeery easy to address, while emotionally manipulative Garon can turn in to a very complex situation that would discount a very large number of opinions. I'm not sure who you could call in that already exists in-universe other than his first wife (and maybe Gunther, but I don't remember his backstory and I don't really wanna go digging for it now). (As for lacking military commanders, tbh, the story didn't strike me as a military/political drama, so I guess I just didn't care.) Eyyy, good game! Tbh, though, Tactics Ogre has a ridiculous amount of writing that could definitely swallow several FE main plots whole. It's been a while since I've played it, but iirc, the campaigns were longer than an FE campaign and the characters spent more time talking, too. I really enjoyed it and I think there are ideas FE can take from the series (the way Tactics Ogre handled enemy convos is sooo much better, a place for lore for the people who like that kinda thing, side-mission chains as subplots), but sheer difference in the amount of writing makes for two different experiences. If the Nohr story felt 'empty,' then I'd side-eye it, but imo, it's pretty packed with stuff as it is now. And Tactics Ogre is a political drama, while Nohr isn't, with a very different message in the story. But which of those is better is personal opinion, and I like both of their genres and messages for different reasons. Yeah, yeah! I'm really not a settings/stories about/around settings sort of person, but it's always nice to mix it up a bit. Well, in my understanding of the story, Takumi is the tail end of Kamui coming to terms with the idea that she can't save everyone, which is something she struggles with throughout the narrative.

Ah, yeah, yeah. I was definitely only thinking about him in the scope of his relationship with the Nohr royals, who I'm veeeery much more interested, ngl. And they're also the only real source of info about him, atm. Mmm, see the issue I have with Trabant (and a good deal of FE antagonists, tbh) is that he's not really... I'm not sure how to word this, mostly because it's been awhile since I played FE4, but iirc, his development was really... jerky? He was developed in random bursts, while I'm personally more a fan of gradual growth/reveals, and even then I think he came across to me as more conflicting/confusing than rounded. I think he just needed more time, which Garon admittedly would have. I'd also argue the principle antagonist is really more Anakos, even on Nohr/Hoshido, with Garon playing second banana. Which I don't really like, but since the final battle+big team psyche up isn't actually with Garon + Aqua's IK teaser stuff, it feels to me like Anakos is the intended 'big bad' even if he's still an unnamed entity. Just that being on Nohr/Hoshido means you... can't actually truly understand what's going on, which is a silly decision, imo, but whatever. The bigger issue I have with Garon is that there's not a good way to expand on human!Garon that isn't biased/from his children (which is what we have now, and I like, but I think would need to come from a more reliable narrator), involves a flashback (which doesn't really fit with the narrative as it is now, so heavily focused on the present), and somehow includes Kamui, seeing as the only way I can think to include him atm is in the Otherworld visions, which are very personal/emotional. Yeah, I think a lil more over-arching connection to... something physical would be good. Ultimately, I think it's a story more about Kamui's personal/emotional journey (with Marx getting a subplot and Leon another, to a lesser extent) and an emotional/moral exploration of the Nohr and Hoshidan royals than a story about... going places and doing things. And I think that part of the story is surprisingly well-executed, for something IS has never tackled before. Unfortunately, I think they definitely forgot an overarching connection in the physical action of the plot (much in the same way the Hoshido story doesn't have an emotional journey, imo, haha), and as a result, the first half and the second have a jarring transition in that regard. That said, though it'd be a nice bonus to have it fixed, I don't really consider it a major mark against the story, mostly because the physical action isn't so much a focus, imo. Parallel scenes I don't mind. Long as the scene does something for the story (and I definitely remember one or two that felt like they were more checking off a list) then it's fine with me. As for crummy plot devices... tbh, I guess I count that more against IK than Nohr, mostly because removing IK removes the need for the two you mentioned. Ah, you, too! It definitely be kinda hard to have a discussion about the game right now. Hopefully, it'll all simmer down in a month+change when official localizations start dropping.

I have a few I like for support reasons... Though depending on localization I may well change my mind... Conquest: Xander/Corrin Niles/Camilla Kaze/Nyx Lazward/Pieri Jakob/Charlotte or Benoit/Charlotte, can't remember which I like... Birthright: Shara/F!Corrin Subaki/Azura Ryoma/Oboro Saizou/Kagerou Hinata/Felicia Revelation: Xander/Corrin Ryoma/Azura for those parallels Saizou/Charlotte ??? Tbh, I've liked a good deal of the same-sex crossover supports, but most of the S-supportable crossover supports, I haven't really liked.

Ehhhh, I only really care about Garon in the context of Nohr sibs (and their relationship as it is, I think, benefits from ambiguity), so tbh, there's no love lost there. Nohr's story already has the Hoshidans for sympathetic antagonists. The biggest reason I don't feel describing human!Garon is particularly necessary is that, beyond maybe expanding on the Nohrian royals' 'loyalties,' which are explained in game anyways, it doesn't really do much for the story. I suppose it wouldn't be bad to have, but at the same time... it really depends on execution and exactly which human!Garon is canon, craptastic emotional abuser/manipulator (which is the interpretation I lean towards and really don't trust IS to handle) or predictably good human being. Tbh, Nohr's story is already so crammed with character drama/exploration, I'm not sure where it would fit without rewriting something anyways. Though if that's your idea (or you think it can be fit somewhere), more power to ya. It's a lot about personal taste, I suppose.

Okay, gotcha. Lack of a strict timeline means this is super dependent on what you think falls where. If you're of the mind that Marx's support with Sakura and this DLC line fall after Shenmei dies, then this is super straightforward, and human!Garon is a decent guy, slime!Garon is the emotionally abusive trash pile. Marx is approximately 10-ish, so still a kid, and everything fits. If you think one/both events fall before Shenmei dies... (This is a lil wordy, and lack of info means it trails closer to speculation/complete headcanon realm than my other stuff) tl;dr: Just like there's nothing to say human!Garon's doing anything atrocious, there's nothing to contradict that he was an emotionally manipulative lil shit really good at projecting an image and getting people to want to please him, minus his first wife, who got tired of his crap and left. Basically, it's the difference between Marx actively fixing messes when he becomes king, and human!Garon maintaining an image as a Good Person, while ignoring all the suffering around him. The crux of the issue is that we don't know what spurred Marx to completely reinvent himself or why he was so terrified of his father. He barely talks about Garon, period, and doesn't mention at all what so completely terrified him about his father (both of which are very red flag-y for someone he holds highly) so at this point, you've hit complete, unsupported speculation. Which I don't really want to go into. Point is, there are plenty of things that could fit here, even with the 'Father would never raise his hand against his children' Garon. If you're of the mind that story!Marx, support!Marx, and DLC!Marx are three different people, then I guess it is what it is. The writing feels cohesive enough to me, obviously, but the big, major thing is that story!Marx and support!Marx speak in very different contexts, about very different things, under very different degrees of emotional strain. Personally, I find it appropriate that he behaves differently with that in mind. If you think he should've been the same in both settings, then 'ey, that's got its own merits, too.

I'd need a reference point on where to look, mostly because I don't really remember that bit (sorry, it's definitely been a while) and context is important. Depending on where this is timeline-wise to everything else, it'd change how I'd approach it. For the DLC line, it's the Spirit Mountain DLC, if you've got a reference you can look at other than my summarizing. Marx doesn't say Garon ~did~ anything if he found him, just that the sight of his father in the halls terrified him, and he was sure something bad would happen if he wasn't back from the restroom. With a good deal of ellipses and commas to mark hesitations. Any rate, it's not out of line for victims of an unhealthy relationship to believe that the harmful acts of their victimizer aren't truly 'harmful,' and a lot of what it seems the Nohrian siblings did experience/are experiencing falls under emotional abuse. Garon not explicitly doing anything to Marx but still being terrifying to him/leading him to believe something terrible would happen if he was caught out of his room (not even doing anything wrong, just coming from the restroom) feels to me like a red flag. Particularly since Marx prefaces his whole little thing by explaining that, even as a child, things like tests of courage didn't terrify him. His father did. Edit: Ahh, forgot to tie in to the emotional abuse bit: The original point I was going to mention is that the Nohrian royals don't have much of a good reference for a 'normal'/healthy emotional state anyways. Between whatever happened to them likely starting young enough for it to be essentially normal for them and Nohr being kinda a trash kingdom where everyone has a different problem for each finger, there's nothing to say (particularly since the characters involved skate around explicitly labelling their relationship with their father) the Nohrian royals even truly grasp how messed up their relationship with Garon is. Not until the end, where Marx is just disgusted with the mess.

foxes) Yeah. You're into it or you're not. Since it ties all in with Kamui's over-arching issues, I enjoyed it, but I also enjoyed her over-arching issues. 7) I mean there's stuff that implies some degree of 'Garon did something to terrify his kids.' There's love in there, too, but there's also stuff that ranges across varying degrees of implication that led me to believe there's some sort of abuse or some relationship dynamic leading to a similar reaction that's gone on since they were children to some unknown (though the events in the plot kinda suggest to me present or close to) time. The royals relationship with their father clearly isn't familial, good, or healthy. Some good examples I'd pull would be some of the royals reaction to turning on Garon, pre and post reveal, iirc, how quick they were (or at least Leon) was to assume Garon sent the Nosferatu to kill them, same with how quick they were to take Garon's threats to Kamui very seriously, and a good deal of Marx's stuff (he seems to be the royal most tied to Garon) in general, like the DLC line where he says that as a child, the thought of being caught by his father out at night terrified him more than anything else. Like... I think there's love there, too... And it's pretty clearly some kind of screwed up relationship... But if I had to pick an emotion, I'd go with fear for Elise, Leon, and Camilla at the least, with Marx being a more complicated mess. It's more like a 'if I don't follow Garon's orders, something bad will happen' situation, imo, with a few nuances for each character and Marx, once again, being a more tangled knot. 8) Yeah, I dunno. It'd probably go like the Hoshido route, where he goes easy on Kamui, or the pre-route split, where Leon just whisks Suzukaze and Rinka away. Who's to say? As for Marx being flimsy/scared, I mean... yes, I think he is? I guess I don't really see that as bad, though. Once Marx knows the whole situation and realizes there's no fixing it, he's the first of the royals to act. Like I've said just up there, I find him a more complex form of his younger siblings' issues.

I'm going to put this under spoilers mostly because I was able to answer a good number of these... though there are certainly spoilers that I'd think you'd know about if you're in the thread, I guess? 1-2 7-12 13-14

Mm, yeah, it's hard for me to judge how overall the changes are so far. Tbh, everything pre-route split in the JP version felt 'detached' kinda to me from everything post-route split in terms of message/writing goals 'n stuff, so I guess I'm just waiting to see some post-route split dialogue first. Not to mention the only JP royals that had pre-route split dialogue in the chapters we got that was really, majorly formative of my opinion of them (as in, sort of nuanced how I felt they had been/would be presented or subverted what I expected them to be) were Marx and Takumi, so personally, they were kinda who I was looking out for those chapters, anyways. The potential changes in Hinoka and Ryoma are interesting to me, but at this point, I kinda wonder if it's more for pushing the emotional impact of the choice scene, ya know? If the changes do stick though, Revelations will either become more interesting or more improbable, which should be fun(?) to see. It's always rough when they change the lines that are important to you though. Like, it's kinda inevitable, but that's not really going to stop me from being salty if it turns out they've overhauled bits of my favorite character. And I'd bet the Hoshidans will get more love once the game is out. The royal guys at least are consistently plot relevant, so that helps.

I do think it is obvious to the player that Xander's a competent military commander. But I also think, least in my understanding, that it's to be assumed Ryoma knows Xander's the prince as well. He's the son of the man that killed his father/kidnapped his sister (and getting Corrin back is kinda an issue for him), a prominent military leader/Nohrian governmental figure who's been on the battlefield already, and known by the player to have been seen by Kaze and Rinkah before this, who certainly didn't treat him like a revelation/mystery despite Kaze reacting to Corrin and at the least, would've theoretically conveyed this important info had it been unknown. So rather, imo, it's sort of a choice between conveying two things both obvious, both supporting information relevant later in the story, both not directly stated up to this point but with plenty of reason to believe they're the case. (Edit: And there's also that Corrin demonstrated to the Hoshidan s/he knows Xander's the prince, but not a military leader, making it a lil more relevant to the whole 'stay away' argument as potentially new info. That would be an actual difference, though whether localization considered it is speculation.) The line certainly stuck out to me a lil, but I think that was more because I knew the JP line than anything else. I don't really have any problem about the old line, either, but this change tbh, I think makes the line... go somewhere, if that makes sense. Bummer about the headcanon, though. Still relevant for the localized version unless localization's changed something in the earlier chapters. 90% of people aren't going to know the line change anyways. And more could find that the line suggests Ryoma doesn't know Xander as a Nohrian prince than naught. This is just my opinion, after all. Just felt like mentioning it with all the various localization/writing criticisms floating around, seeing as this one can be seen as doing lil more than just reflecting on the one character, ya know? Tbh, some of the other discussions I've overseen do leave me a lil salty, so if I came across as such, apologies, because that certainly wasn't my intention. Feels to me like this chapter is a thing shippers for any ship involving some combo of Ryoma, Xander, and Corrin will pick apart any sort of way. And the same for character fans. I'm sure it'll end up fanfic-ed, analyzed, and headcanon-ed in all kinds of ways once the game's out.

Obviously, personal opinion ahead... Isn't being an enemy commander more relevant to the scene (and more particularly all the scenes prior about 'this is what Nohrians do' with regards to the destruction talk/scenes) than being simply the crown prince of Nohr, though? It more clearly marks Xander as the enemy in Ryoma's eyes and is a stronger way of convincing Corrin (and the player) that Xander's done the horrible military things mentioned by directly tying him in to a military position. Though 'prince' presumably ought to tie him into a military commander position, this is much clearer and has much stronger connotations. It's more suited to a persuasive argument. There's also no reason for Corrin (or the player) not to know that Xander's a prince of Nohr. When it comes to sharing information Corrin (and the player) may or may not know, dropping this lil bit that Xander's an army commander (which iirc, isn't something directly stated here or prior in the JP dialogue, though it's pretty obvious) actually confirms something. We already know he's a prince, which is obviously going to be quite well-known. Ryoma's lil bit tells us that Xander's also a well-known commander, speaking to his military prowess. And, even though it's something obvious to the player, in Kamui's interactions with the Hoshidan royals, it's not clear that he/she understands this (though we do know that Kamui does). Though Kamui conveys that s/he understands Marx is a prince, there's nothing in his/her discussion with the royals that suggests s/he understands he's a military commander (and should apply to Corrin, Xander, and the Hoshidan royals providing localization). So mentioning this could theoretically be a revelation for Corrin (and the player, I guess), while mentioning Xander's a prince ought not to have any reason to turn Corrin from him. Not to mention attaching the 'horrible military person' connotations to Xander more clearly has the potential to build sympathy/'but he's not really like that' towards him in the player than just 'prince,' which is more neutral/detached. Though it's just a word, it's a change that does affect what Ryoma's statement conveys/engenders, particularly for the reader. tl;dr: It's more suited to a persuasive argument, more relevant, and information dropping we (and Corrin, least in Ryoma's eyes) haven't had yet (depending on localization, obv).

Beruka is an actual name (not to mention the other legitimate romanization of Belka's name anyways), with a meaning that makes sense for her character, least imo. Looks like some of the other changes have been made to make sure the pronunciation of the names is unambiguous (and yes, I think people should be able to pronounce Tsubaki if they can pronounce tsunami, but whatever), then you've got some to fix up/change connotations to match localized versions, make sure the connection hits, avoid connections (Xander, Arthur, if I had to guess), and plenty of others to just make the names easier to remember. Gotta agree that localization's doing fine. The only thing that's kinda a mystery to me is why Yukimura inexplicably seems to have stayed the same, while we've got Kaze and Hana. I mean, I can think up reasons, but I'd rather like to hear theirs, ya know?

So Marx has a not!cat and Ryouma a not!dog... A comment on the differences between their personalities/how they get along, I imagine? And does that leave poor Kamui the chew toy?

Well, imo, Kamui's really not any worse than most other FE lords, so I'm really more neutral to him/her than anything else... but that wasn't an option (I'm sure I'm just being picky) so I tossed my vote for 'like' instead because I do really like how they handled Nohr!Kamui. Hosh!Kam's fairly generic, imo, and I haven't read IK!Kamui (or many of Kamui's supports), so really it all balances out to about neutral for me. Not really a fan of FE lords in general though. Kamui also gets a loooot of bonus points for letting me be a lady lord that gets actual consistent focus and stuff, so no matter how Corrin's localized they'll certainly get that benefit in my eyes.

Mmm, yeah, it's too early for me to tell for most of them. If it's well-written over the course of the stories, I probably won't mind the changes made (though editing my fanfic to match will be a pain). So far... I feel, for my own opinions of the JP vs localized characters, Hinoka and Takumi benefited, while Xander and Sakura may not have, with everyone else kinda not giving me enough 'important' material to decide. Hinoka, tbh, I think could use the color she'd get from being more anti-Nohr. Not that I really have a problem with JP!Hinoka, but I always kinda felt her character was a lil... flat, I guess? in the actual story. Giving her something to talk about other than Corrin I think should be good for her character. JP!Takumi was just a lil too childish/immature for my tastes. It was justified given his age and what not, but because of that, I actually never warmed up to him. Making him more sure of himself already helps my opinion of him. Xander... What I liked about Marx was that he was this stereotypical 'strong' character who was actually quite vulnerable... But some particular lines they changed for Xander, that one from the cutscene you mentioned and the line when he and Corrin reunite, make me wonder if they retconned that vulnerability? Or at least diminished its prevalence in his character? Which would be disappointing to me, personally, mostly because I liked how he deviated from that stereotype. Sakura, I think, was another character who really needed her weaker bits, more to make her strong moments really standout and to emphasize her insecurities. But like Xander, there's nothing to say they didn't change her character (or just make her strong moments stronger to compensate). Eh, who's to say at this point, I suppose.

Rather... it feels like localization just made everyone's personalities 'stronger,' per say? Like Hinoka was always anti-Nohr, but her dialogue was more reserved. And Takumi, instead of being kinda flustered when Kamui points out the issues in his one statement, is much more self-assured about the thing. Then you've got Marx, who's more certain about Kamui returning to him, seemingly viewing it as more of a definite. Even Sakura's more outgoing. The only person I kinda thought it hurt was Marx, but it's a lil too early for me to really decide anything.

Ahhh, the localization made the dialogue so much more straightforward. I quite like it. It definitely benefited my opinion of Takumi's personality (feels so much less childish already), though I'm not quite sure how I feel about Xander, atm... Not only is his VA's line delivery kinda curious at times (I like the use of the higher register, but it feels like some low lines should be high and high lines low, ya know?), but the way localization reinterpreted Marx's dialogue... I'm not so sure I like some of the changes... I guess I just need to see more to decide. I did like the VAs though. Hinoka was weird and Marx a lil off at times (but not bad), but other than that, I really liked 'em!