blinkingbrave

Kamui's the most popular character tag on pixiv associated with the tag I use to snoop on Japanese fanart for the game, so the reception must not have been too bad... I dunno that much about the Fates poll, so maybe he/she just wasn't on there? As for Kamui's inclusion/role in the story itself, yeah, I'd read it for yourself. Opinions are pretty mixed, and I've heard everything from praise to criticism and all the spaces in between. Localization may also end up retconning his/her personality some, a la Eliwood and Marth, because that 'extremely naive protag' thing is apparently a mildly popular Japanese trope? It appears in unlocalized (and localized) stuff beyond FE. Or it might stay in because it fits with the plot, so I guess we'll see.

Juuuust given what I've experienced and seen flit across my tumblr/AO3/pixiv page, kinda? Sorta self insert-y in terms of supports, really not in terms of main plot (excepting when you're making a decision). While I've seen people refer to Kamui/Robin as 'them' in terms of who they married and befriended and Morgan/Kanna as 'their' child, the plot points I've seen people associate with themselves instead of Kamui/Robin are the choices the game invites you to make, not the ones Kamui/Robin makes on their own. People also tend to note their custom MUs in fanart/fanfic as different from Robin/Kamui, OCs, etc. Given that Robin makes decisions on his/her own, without the player's knowledge, I'd think that's rather telling, as well, at least to what the original intentions were. How self insert-y a character feels is also kinda up to opinion. Personally, neither Robin or Kamui ever really 'felt' like me in the main plot, Kamui even less so. For that matter, the only thing it ever felt like I did was marry someone. If that screen cut in thing wasn't there, I probably wouldn't have associated that with me either.

The actions themselves make sense within the context of the plot. But the writing decision, itself, still comes across as a lil... problematic to me, just given the details surrounding the plot point, and the fact that it feels generally unnecessary. So much of the plot is about politics, why not reference Adean's status or Lachesis's importance as a hostage to knock Eldigan down a peg? Both would be just as scummy and fit in better with the whole political focus. Why do we have to go straight to sexual potential? When Eldigan is tossed in jail, it's all political. When whoever the enemy is goes to steal away a female unit, it isn't. This is why I don't have an issue with Leen's circumstances, which is very similar sexual exploitation. She's a dancer who doesn't have much else going for her. Adean and Lachesis though both could have been used to up the political drama and purposefully weren't. It's probably just a nitpick, and it's more directed at the employed trope than anything else. The issue with Deirdre isn't that she's overly defined by her relationships to Sigurd and Arvis, she's completely defined by them. It's her entire personality and all her dialogue. The Fates/Awakening examples have their own personalities and dialogue that doesn't just profess their love for their object of focus. I haven't played anything from Tellius, but good female characters are a series staple. Since you mentioned a comparison between FE4 and Fates/Awakening specifically though, I just figured I'd go ahead and address that particular one.

They are in terms of the writing. Neither are particularly good in terms of costuming, but FE4 most prominently features Dierdre, who's entirely defined by her current relationship. You also have Adean's kidnapping, for the sole purpose of sexual reasons, and Lachesis's attempted kidnapping, also for sexual reasons. I dunno what the intention of that all was actually to be, but it... does kinda read a lil sexist. I wouldn't say anything is dramatically bad (except Dierdre), but it is kinda problematic at parts. Part of it could just be that the game is older. I dunno. I usually just kinda spare it a lil eye roll and move on. Given the game's age, it's really not indicative of much about series direction so it's not really worth getting worked up over, imo. Awakening/Fates really is noticeably better on the writing front here at least, though.

I remember the Elise/Effie support mentions that they played together in the past. But Elise... plays with everyone, and I don't remember it saying anything indicative of Effie's age. I guess I just assumed Effie humored her.

Yeah... I've always wondered if newer fans would... like older games the same? I started with Awakening and went back and played older games, but I also like strategy games in general. A lot about the story and the characters is very different, and it... feels to me like the larger pull for the people I know (which I guess would be fanartists, fanfic-ers, and people more on tumblr) is the character and story component. I wonder if it could just be indicative of a fanbase shift in that direction...

We know some relative ages, but I doubt they'll give us real numbers because then there's no sliding certain characters by. The only thing I can think of is that Elise is confirmed the youngest royal out of everyone (the support that supposedly confirmed her at 10 was a mistranslation though) and Leon (and probably Takumi, too) is likely close to Kamui's age.

The translation that popped across my Tumblr said that they had received some rather harsh criticisms of the game from long time fans (kirokan's might have said this, too, but I don't think that's the one I read). Even with that counted for though, the game was still received overwhelmingly positively, and a lil number crunching says 59% of people put it 90/100 or higher. With that in mind, Famitsu not publishing whatever these harsh criticisms were was probably less about trying to sell the game (though I'm sure that was part of it) and more about displaying the majority opinion. Story seems like it might have gotten mixed reception given as it's the only thing to receive a slightly snippy comment alongside praise, but everything else seems to have been received generally well. There's even a lil blurb hoping the MU will appear in the next game as well. The poll was also a lot more about how you used various features instead of opinions (minus children, which seemed popular as well). You can kinda surmise some stuff, and there are some more opinion-y comments in there, but whether these are the majority opinion is kinda speculation.

I dunno... Some of it's pretty dated. Buuuut how much could actually be revamped without messing with what was originally there is hard to tell. Like I think they could fix up that miserable narrator just fine, but trying to work with Deirdre could be trickier. The barebones plot is still solid overall, so there's not much reason to go into that, at least. And there's really no denying some character building would do wonders. I think a lot of moments that were meant to be emotional really just missed me because of the way they were presented and a lack of attachment to the characters in them. Also, actually explained game mechanics and some of those other quality of life things would be a nice addition. And the music would sound amazing. Between the map layout not being suitable for a handheld and the implementation of the second gen (I don't want to call it dated, but it's not something done now, either. No matter how they handle it, I don't see it being terribly well received), I don't really see a revamp happening soon-ish though.

I guess I don't see Robin and Kamui as self-inserts, so their existence doesn't terribly bother me (not that there's really anything wrong with self-inserts either). I tend to keep it all the canon set-up anyways. Not to mention Robin and Kamui are better than Mark, which was just plain awkward.

Hmmm... How to explain... I think it's relevant at times... There's enough stuff there where I can see why it could be called a theme, but it doesn't really have consistent overarching relevance to me and it doesn't feel like it's explored so much as exploited to pull on heartstrings. There are some exceptions where you get this look into characters' heads, but on Kamui's end (minus the choice chapter), it doesn't stretch terribly far beyond 'I can't fight brother/sister.' For me, there are too many missed opportunities (Garon, Mikoto, Kamui's sudden bond with the Hoshidan siblings, particularly if you go Nohr, actually, Kamui's familial relationship with the royals relatively unexplored in the main plot, period) and conflicting things (Hello, Hoshidan s-supports and Kamui/Marx shipbait main plot dialogue) for this to be a theme. I dunno. I can see where other people get it, but there's just too much squandered for me, personally, to embrace it. If it was more generally present perhaps (beyond the 'brother/sister' calling and 'I can't fight XYZ!', which is a lil too superficial for me), instead of just relevant on some of those chapters where you happen to fight a royal... Or maybe if it felt like Kamui should have the connection to the Hoshidan family she suddenly just... kinda... has... I dunno. Something like this is just super-dependent on how you read things. Perhaps localization will iron it out and push it more clearly for me one way or the other.

I thiiiiink we just have different interpretations of the choice scene. I didn't particularly think Hoshido had any pull from the family side (iirc, actually they kinda make Kamui lowkey uncomfortable at first) or Nohr on the moral side (hellooooo, Garon), so I understood the choice scene as loved ones vs morals. Kinda like that guy in the beginning of the thread who mentioned how the Nohr choice was intended to be selfish. Family strikes me as the common thread between Kamui and the royals, but not a theme. While I haven't gotten completely through both routes (so perhaps my opinion will change), it really hasn't been explored in any capacity, despite having plenty of opportunities (that Saizou/Suzukaze reunion, Marx, whose character insight focuses on his ideals instead of all the family theme we could have gotten involving his father issues, the meeting of all families together that only resulted in some banter and highlighting of the foils, etc). While Kamui still calls everyone brother/sister, the definition of that isn't terribly explored. I get that that kind of exploration isn't typically a thing in FE, but it is on the Nohr route this time around, at least, and they didn't take the opportunities they could have. Given that I'm almost through the Nohr route, even if they were to change something around in the last handful of chapters (and slime Garon's existence doesn't bode particularly well, because if family were a theme that would be a fantastic way to explore it) it still wouldn't have the overarching 'I prioritized my loved ones over the people who were right and the fallout sucks' from the chapter split. I feeeeel like I've already discussed the moral issue? Maybe? I dunno, but Garon's existence kinda... made that feel like a non-issue. One side's clearly right, the other's clearly wrong, and Kamui quite clearly understands that as a thing, given that Garon's plan was to kamikaze her in Hoshido, among many other giveaways pre-choice scene. Without knowing more about when Garon was possessed, I feel like it's kinda down to fan theory how legit any reason for Nohr starting the war truly is. I'd say it's more about Kamui adapting to Nohr and working through the moral dilemma of her own moral code vs her and her loved ones' skins. Floundering is a natural side-effect, and it'd be a lil strange for this cloistered girl (who's so sheltered from Nohr she doesn't even know her siblings' retainers names) to suddenly be down with the murder of innocents come chapter seven.

They're left in the dimension, and then if you do their gaiden chapters you go back to visit them, recruiting them for varying reasons.

As I read it, her whole deal wasn't resolving to help the people of Nohr (Kamui's pretty openly all about helping anyone and everyone), her issue was with Garon and his shady tactics (killing all these innocents, blackmailing parties into surrender, disguising as neutral political leaders, etc). She didn't feel comfortable working alongside him and his men, and this issue was exacerbated by the fact that the Hoshidans didn't use these same tactics, instead meeting them honorably on the battle field like Marx tells us the Nohrian way should be. If Kamui comes to understand that Hoshido actually operates the same way as Garon on the Nohr route, then a large portion of this issue with working alongside Garon is gone, because the Hoshidans aren't actually innocents after all. If both sides are morally equal in the war, then there wasn't really a 'wrong' decision for Kamui to worry over making and there's no need to fear that because she made this wrong decision a bunch of innocent people die because as it turns out, no one's innocent after all and there is no wrong decision. I imagine she's still more jaded by the end, but it's a much easier process, instead of the more conflicted 'all of these innocent people are dead because of me but I can't let my loved ones die so...' issue she currently struggles with. Like I said, I would've liked to see grey Hoshido on the Hoshidan side, though, because as it is, the story's so far been pretty smooth moral sailing for Kamui. The only reason I'm glad it didn't show up on Nohr is because Nohr already has its own moral issue and this kinda feels like it actually solves that issue instead of providing more conflict. No point in adding something in if it'll nip the pre-existing storyline in the bud from the Ice Tribe chapter. My suspicion is that on the Nohr route (at least the way I'm picturing this to be written. maybe as a chapter or two once you get to Hoshido, seeing as you're the aggressors on this route and the Hoshidans don't really leak into Nohr too much) is that it would come mid/late plot, by the time Kamui's whole regret monologue has already happened. In this case, it'll feel like a 'get out of jail free' card, which... kinda isn't good. Alternatively, it happens early game, meaning that there's no moral dilemma at all, because as I already mentioned, showing that the good side is actually shady only makes you feel better for picking the blatantly shady side. Either way, it's not doing good things for the Nohr plot, when it could actually help on the Hoshido one, which already has an issue with the Nohrians being the more morally/emotionally compelling characters and limelight stealing.

As for the lack of Hoshido inner issues, I'd say that falls more as an flaw on the Hoshido route. It makes more sense to focus on it there, where we can see the royals and/or Kamui overcoming it than on Nohr, where a large portion of Kamui's issues stem from this apparent dichotomy between Nohrian and Hoshidan morals and doing this kinda plot twist thing trivializes that entire conflict. It'd be a similar to that cheap Garon plot twist doing away all the emotional conflict we could've gotten from the Nohrian royalty. I get that you're replacing Kamui's original issue with the whole 'no one's good or bad' type deal, but that seems like it'd be more appropriate to bring up on the Hoshidan route, where it could spark conflict, as opposed to the Nohrian one, where all it's going to do is make you feel better about your decision and handwave Kamui's original moral dilemma. I get that it's interesting in theory, but to display Hoshido as grey, particularly on the Nohr route (where we aren't likely going to get the same insight on Ryouma as we can on Marx and his justice), kinda clashes with the moral issues already present. If anything, I'd think it'd make more sense to let Hoshido appear white on the Nohr route like they currently do and then show them as actually messy on the Hoshido one. You don't have to wreck the moral dilemma on Nohr, and you actually get to introduce one on Hoshido, which is kinda lacking in the moral dilemma and character development departments anyways. Not to mention it has the potential to make that choice scene a lil wonky depending on how it's executed. Which would be another reason to put it on Hoshido so you can get a better handle on controlling how it's presented. tl;dr: I'd blame Hoshido route's writing for this, not Nohr. Because it's an issue (and one of the things I'm definitely finding kinda disappointing on the Hoshido route), but not really Nohr route's issue.

Ah. Yeah, I think we just formed our opinions on different things. I can definitely see where you get that impression based on... actions? Plot points is maybe the word I'm looking for? I dunno, but that makes a lot more sense.I'd say, like a couple of other people have already kinda pointed out, that the dialogue itself really mellows this out. I think it could have been the focus of those events, but the actual dialogue doesn't read like it is. This has kinda been discussed to death and we all know where everyone stands on it though, so I'll just leave it at that. Either way, I get where you're coming from a lil more now.

FE4's a different beast, mostly because the playable characters... aren't really developed. I mean... I guess you could ship them, but unless you pick one of a very specific set of pairs for your female character of choice, your ship... isn't actually going to talk. Like at all. FE4 has so little interaction between and development of the playable cast, you're kinda just basing your pairs on faces, stats, and/or getting that one extra bitty conversation you can maybe unlock pairing them up if you've picked one of the correct three/four pairs (which is... pretty much nothing). I guess that's why no one has an issue with it? (Well, that and Awakening/Fates recency). I like the new direction, mostly because there's just sooooo much more character material. It feels like they're trading world-building focus (I guess? I dunno if that's quite right, but it seems closest out of the options I can think of) for character-building, and I'm a fan. Buuuut I'd say it's still a lil too early to see if it'll stick. IS usually does their games in sets of two, so I'd wait til the next one to see what's still there after Awakening+Fates and that'll probably answer all your questions. Personally, I'm super curious to see if Kozaki will stick around.

The plot definitely has issues, but this particular one, I don't really see... Like I said, an example so I can see where you're getting this interpretation from would be really helpful. I don't terribly want to argue against it, because we seem to just have fundamentally different views on the matter, but getting some of the reasoning behind your opinion would really help me appreciate where you're coming from.

Oh. I agree with you there, then. It's definitely a 'best for my country' and/or 'all to save Father' kinda deal. How much he's actually intending it to be full on rebellion is up to interpretation. It still reads to me like an 'act of rebellion' though, despite Marx's potential lack of rebellious intent. Leon's (and he's pretty clearly the most pragmatic one between the Kamui-Marx-Leon trio) gotta cover your tracks at one point because he can't have news of your and Marx's escapades getting back to Nohr, you're killing Garon's allies, and I, at least, thought it was pretty clear Garon would not be cool with it.

@Alazen: Eh, fair criticism. I think Nohr focuses a good deal on Kamui and Marx (with some Leon and Aqua) over everyone else, but all the royals, including Elise and Camilla, still get pretty consistent talking bits, despite not always driving the plot. Camilla probably gets the shortest end of the stick because Elise has a few chapters headstart without competing royals and Leon joins right on her heels, but she still gets her bit. It's not like the game forgets about them a la Lilina. They definitely have too large a sibling cast for them all to be equally important. Personally, I get why a few were focused on because it helps the plot stay directed, but I wish that they at least would've picked the opposite pair to get more attention on the other route. Since the girls do all have fairly frequent talking bits (and these aren't just ship bait talking bits, even for Camilla), they don't really feel just there as marriage fodder to me. Except Aqua, who frequently feels... forgotten once you have enough royals for them to interact amongst each other. And gets those ship bait talking bits. But, nah, I agree that the sisters should've gotten more focus. They get some... but it's really not the same level as Marx and Leon (which was surprisingly good for what FE usually shows in main plot). I'm kinda hoping they'll get some exploration on Hoshido because I know they're supposed to get some chapters, buuuut given that I haven't run across the same exploration of the Hoshidan brothers (Takumi's gotten some but it's... different) as I have Marx and Leon on their own route, I'm not really holding my breath...

It's definitely flat, I agree, but I guess I don't see it as a detraction from the main story, mostly because of how little time you spend in Hoshido. I'm at chapter eighteen on Nohr and we still haven't made it to Hoshido, and you're outta there by... chapter nine on the Hoshidan route itself. It'd be more an issue if they went the political drama route with it or spent more time in Hoshido, but since soooo much of the Nohr focus is on the individual characters and the Hoshidan on fighting Nohrians, it feels like to devote time to that would be a lil... out of place, especially on the Nohr route, which is already dialogue heavy for an FE game. I think it'd just end up feeling like filler... I wouldn't even say past FE's have done this better. They usually tend to go the one-off boss route or the FE4 style walls of text, neither of which I find terribly engaging. There's definitely more content there, but I dunno if that's always a good thing in terms of main narrative (just take LotR as an example. hellooooo, pace/mood ruining elf songs). And Nohr's super dialogue heavy already. It works in older installments because political drama's already the focus and/or the main plot's light anyways so padding it with extra world-building doesn't really impede on what's already going on. Just looking at Nohr, there's just not much room, given that every chapter pushes the war with Hoshido (focusing more on Hoshidan royalty drama, not general Hoshido), develops a character, displays some act of rebellion from Marx and/or Kamui (sometimes feat. Leon), and/or reminds you IK is a thing. In Hoshido, there's some more wiggle room. Some of those chapters are pretty light on dialogue, and that route is more typical FE plot anyways. Buuuut the thread's about Nohr route, soooo... Discussion for another time, I guess. And it might just be a difference of taste. ASoIaF-type lore makes my eyes glaze over, but all the ASoIaF character drama is totally my jam. I kinda prefer the Harry Potter/Mortal Instruments 'share it as it's relevant' deal. Might also depend on if you consider world-building separate from storyline. Edit: Juuuuust now realized that the lack of Hoshido at all could be your issue/part of your issue/whatever? In which case, yeah, no, there's really just not much focus on Hoshido at all. I don't really mind it, obviously, but that's fair and yeah, the story doesn't focus much on them. I'd say that falls more on Hoshido than Nohr, though.

Yes, based on canon. No one else is even presented on the Hoshidan side as a person of power (even despite given opportunities to introduce someone), so there's not a person to pick from, nor reason to believe someone with more leadership power than Ryouma exists. He's heir to the throne when the king and queen are dead. Unlike on Nohr, where Kamui and Marx can be told to go buzz off because the king outranks them, there's no one who outranks the royals on Hoshido. As for going behind Kamui and Ryouma's backs, the Hoshidan culture is generally depicted as one that values bloodline. We aren't led to believe that King Sumeragi had any siblings or surviving family outside his children, so there isn't anyone left to claim the throne from that angle, and without that tie to the king's blood, there's not reason to believe loyalty will be enough to lead a rebellion. Grannvale is a different situation entirely. Arvis and all the main players were introduced in the beginning, and backstabbing and betrayal was a common theme, even from the first chapter. Can't speak on Thracia or Crimea. It's a combo of a thematic thing and simply... not knowing any other Hoshidans. It's a simple matter to write something in for a headcanon/fanfic, of course, buuuut based on what the game showed me, I'd be inclined to think that there isn't anyone to betray Ryouma in canon.

I dunno... I don't think there's anything inherently wrong/poorly written in presenting the Nohr/Hoshido conflict the way it is. It serves its purpose. IS could've taken the story in that direction, but it doesn't really feel like they did. Not to mention depicting your playable cast as unsympathetic like that is incredibly risky. IS covered their bases by showing you that the playable Nohrians and Hoshidans are all good guys, actually fighting the same enemies for the purpose of justice (hence that whole chapter where Kamui and Marx even turn on their own ally, not because he turned on them, but because of his tactics/motivations). If the true enemies aren't the same on both routes (or leader of the 'evil' Hoshidans isn't in a similar situation to Garon), then one set of playable characters isn't as truly good as the other. No matter how it's written, I don't see how evil Hoshidans will reflect well on the Hoshidan royals. The Nohrians have the excuse of being under Garon's thumb, but Mikoto and the playable Hoshidans form the highest command in Hoshido, making them either evil or incompetent. With the connection to Mikoto being a large part of the pull to join the Hoshidan side and evil/incompetent really not being something you want attached to the Hoshidan royals, their retainers, or Yukimura, I'm not sure how this could be written to preserve the goodness of the playable cast, in the same way that the Nohrian playable cast is still good despite Garon and his crew. Sure, in theory, people want gritty plots and darker characters... but in practice, far fewer people actually want to be placed in that situation. Much less be the 'bad guy.' Plenty of people criticize Kamui/Marx participating in the war and not rebelling against Garon, and they're the sort of grey characters I think you're asking for...? Being grey isn't necessarily good from a playable character point. It works when you can pick your decisions or in the situation where you're depicting a non-playable character, hence the popularity of the Camus archetype, but people... don't always want to be forced to do bad things. If this were a book and not a video game, I think it'd be one thing, but since this is a medium where people are going to associate the playable characters' actions with themselves, it's a lot trickier...

Ryouma: Aqua, Kagerou, Orochi, ??? I think I'd rather just give him Hana instead of Camilla or Elise... Hinoka: Asama, Tsubaki, Suzukaze, Camilla Takumi: Oboro, Setsuna, ???, Elise (but only if it gets a rewrite) Sakura: Tsubaki, Tsukuyomi, Cyrus, Leon Elise: Flannel, Benoit, Harold, Takumi Leon: Nyx, Luna, Zero, Sakura Camilla: Zero, Joker, Belka, Hinoka Marx: Kamui... and maybe Nyx, I guess? His supporting person (minus Kamui and Nyx) never brings up any of his very obvious screwy mental shit so I don't have many pairs for him...

Takumi's tricky because whether or not his development makes sense is super dependent on how you interpret various bits of his character and where you allocate blame for certain plot points. I guess since I viewed him as a more childish version of Leon, what with them being foils and his behavior in other supports, his chitchat with Kamui didn't really stand out to me as odd because it still fit in with how I had understood his character. If you tie all his blaming Kamui stuff as more central to his character or you don't see him as childish though, I can see how that lil blurb would be jarring. Since Nohr's all character drama-y, different character interpretations are bound to change stuff. And then since there's really not an overall 'right' interpretation, it all comes down to opinion, regarding whether or not something makes sense.