Nightmare
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Posts posted by Nightmare
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2 minutes ago, Snike said:
Bolded and
all
of
these quotes are appeals to emotion (ate), where the defense (or case) isn't based in reason but more emotion/tone wise. It's kinda like trying to guilt someone into not suspecting you; and it is not really good play overall imo. I usually (and do in this case) find it suspicious bc I feel like town most of the time has logic backing their defenses.
I'm subbed out, but I have permission to post this.
Bolded: I don't really understand the first part. How is a pre-conceived notion not a logical failing? The second part I can see how it can be read that way, but it wasn't my intention so sorry about that. What I'm saying there is that it feels like withholding from comments like the things I said (which honestly seemed completely innocuous to me) feels stifling, and I don't think that's a productive way to do things.
The other quotes: the first one is just me giving up. Again it wasn't my intent to AtE you or anyone, but sorry if it came across that way. The other two I thought were obvious as jokes.
By the way, Mack hasn't read the thread so give him some time to catch up. I've given him a summary, but still.
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20 minutes ago, Snike said:
aand sf ate another post
what bbm said + missing macho is big
+Why would you claim Town? That's kinda superfluous because it's a given unless you're claiming third that you're assuming you're town. (Nitpick but capital T implies it's part of rolename; if he meant factional he saw that it was Upright and so should've used that)
-ate is ongoing. Ate is strong. I am not interested in addressing it right now.
It was just how I had it in my mind at the time. Like I said, I hadn't read my role PM in a while.
Is this second point addressed to me? If so, you can tell me what it's about whenever you feel interested in addressing it.
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Same man, but apparently that makes me scum, so you're my scum buddy now. Sorry Refa.
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Joke's on me if you turn out to be scum.
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You seemed townish to me, so I wanted to protect you in case any negative actions were targetted at you. @Refa
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I didn't "miss" it, I just hadn't read my role PM in a while.
But sure, go ahead and vote me.
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My mistake. It says Macho Martyr.
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@Snike Whoever has the role will understand, but basically I have a two-way, private conversation open with one other player here, who shall go unnamed. And yes @ your second post. The flavour is something about Marth being unlucky and Marth Isn't Allowed To Have Fun.
I'm too lazy to address them directly by quotes, but the cases on me are I think pretty weak as far as scum reading goes (advocates so far: kirsche, Shinori, athena, Via, kindasorta Snike). They're legitimate in terms of play style criticism because I haven't been putting as much effort as I should have (and I haven't played in a long time; I only have one effort game under my belt), but otherwise it's just low hanging fruit. It feels like a lot of them are being informed by pre-conceived notions (on the fence = absolute scum) and other such oddities (am I not allowed to voice concerns about Snike or that I'm hopeful for a scum lynch? Perhaps it's not how it usually goes around here, but I think it's strange to use that as a crutch for a scum read). I feel like we're blowing this way out of proportion here, and there are bigger concerns we should be looking into instead.
##Vote: Junko
I'm falling back on this until there's something better to be had.
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I'm being subbed out, but I'll let you all know that I'm actually Marth @Vi-astra the Town Martyr. Last night I targetted Refa and got a walkie talkie.
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You seem a little over-eager to push the Bartozio lynch, Snike. I know we'll need a lynch by the end of the day, but it's making me a bit uneasy.
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If I had to say, I'm less bothered by athena for gut reasons (though the cases against him remain relevant, so it's not that I'm not bothered at all), and Bart's roleclaim makes me more suspicious than athena's for reasons already mentioned. I guess a Junk turbo isn't happening right now, and since there's only 30 minutes left...
##Unvote
##Vote: Bartozio
Fingers crossed it's a scum flip.
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Eesh, I'm late.
Having read the past few pages, I'd like to do an ##Unvote on JB. There's more content now, but he's not entirely off my radar as scum. I think there are bigger priorities right now, but man I kind of feel bad about most of the current wagons. I don't know, maybe I missed something. Most of these people are blurring into each other as far as I'm concerned.
Junk is an interesting case though. Honestly as I said before, it seems he's just being himself and I can't really tell if he's town or scum just from this. This post, however...
15 hours ago, Junk said:So turns out I mainly missed page 18 not 17 and 18. Kirsche's new post doesn't change my mind. It's just null. Some stuff about bibbon (btw what do you actually think of the slot kirsche) and then a minor read on eclipse and his read on nightmare seems more like pressure to get him to talk which isn't significant.
For the rest of the page I pretty much said what BBM already said in my post and eclipse's logic is pretty good in regards to marth. Snike's posts about athena are also pretty good.
So yeah p18 in general just reaffirms my reads.
How exactly does kirsche's new post(s) reaffirm your reads on him? Why doesn't it change your mind? I'd like you to expound on that, because it doesn't make much sense to me right now.
9 hours ago, Eurykins said:> Chewing into Nightmare's Post @Nightmare A few questions if you don't mind:
1. You seem to dismiss Zeus's plays based on being inexperienced town- okay. Why not as newbscum? Which alignment benefits more from not bothering actually attempting any sort of meaningful content, activity level/quality, or scum hunting? And if he is inexperienced as you say he is, why would he attempt to crumb something like a vig role? (Why attempt to do something like that, but not employ generic townie mafia gameplay of trying to offer reads or look for suspect things? Seems odd to me.)
2. Bibbon town read notion seemed fine (though I'm not sure I agree with it) until you seemed to doubt yourself with a backpedal "might actually be scum Bibbon" comment. Kinda dropped weird vibes there, in terms of not being sure if you wanted to commit to that town read or not?
3. Both the notions on Satsuma and Marth basically just note spectating reactions and not offering any reads currently. Also not quite sure what you meant by "interesting" regarding cases around Satsuma. Care to elaborate? Are the cases on Marth making you start to lean towards a semi-scum read on him? Or is he (and Satsuma) still in the null zones?
4. Regarding JB- you said his attempts to "escape the scum reads"? As in, avoiding giving/making scum reads for association tells? Or trying to avoid having other players looking at him in a scummy light? Wording was a bit weird for me, sorry, but trying to figure out why the vote you chose to make is on JB in this post.
5. Lackluster posts from BBM, but still seems like town. Lackluster in what way, and is it something that you feel would be considered noteworthy enough to influence your read at all on his slot?
Sure thing.
1. It makes sense when you put it that way. In general though, I feel like it could also be someone who's very unmotivated as well, in addition to the other things. Granted, it's more productive to think of it as a scum play than a newbtown, which is why I'm not entirely against a lynch or a vig on him.
2. I just don't really know Bibbon personally, and don't know how she usually plays. In general, pretty much all my current reads are on the fence and I can't honestly commit to any of them. I'm having trouble thinking of a good vote right now too.
3. Satsuma is still more or less null. I was honestly expecting more, but what I saw let me down. I'm not overly impressed with his reads (mostly surface level stuff; granted, I'm guilty of this too), but it's not enough for me to consider him definitely scum. I've been slow to read the new content, but what I saw of Marth made me lean more towards town for him than scum, so that's a no go as far as wagons go for me.
4. No worries. He just didn't really give any good rebuttals or defence for his behaviour when he was called out, and what he did give was very lacking and thin. He has been posting more and with more content since, as I mentioned.
5. No, not particularly noteworthy. I was just not especially impressed with his content in the first couple of hours (I think, not sure about the time frame, but early D1), because he didn't seem to say much of note. It was the first couple of hours, however, so I don't really blame him. I think he's gotten better since then. The town read was mostly from tone and the activity/engagement he did seemed like something more townish than not.
Whew. With all that out of the way, I guess if I had to do a comparison of cases presented vs. defences for them, I guess Junk is the most suspect one. He hasn't really tried to defend himself or anything (at least, as far as I saw; I was rushing a bit because I was scared of the deadline), and his posts just don't say much in general, besides all the things he's got against him (flaky, etc.), so I'll stake my bets here.
##Vote: Junk
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Sure, I'll cop to that @Shinori. I'm not exactly doing my best with scum hunting (or playing this game in general), but the town reads also help me to better identify scum vs. town, especially in the long run. Telling other people about it will also be helpful I imagine, though I will try doing more.
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54 minutes ago, Shinori said:
Underlined is his, what appears to be, only actual scum read. I actually really think this is weak as well. I also know JB hasn't really done much either so there isn't much there to make a strong case or anything but that's what makes it weird that this is Nightmare's strongest case. I feel that there should be other people who have done worse or sparked bigger scum reads than this.
Maybe there should be, maybe there shouldn't. I know some people have acted worse (e.g. Marth, zeus, and Satsuma/athena in some instances), but for now I'm waiting on a defence from Marth. If we don't get it, or a satisfactory one, I'm switching votes to him. But for now, I feel strongest about JB. He hasn't even really tried to do anything beyond the surface level to repel the accusations against him. While this could just be a lazy/busy townie, I'm staking my bets on it (even though I doubt we'll lynch him today) until I can see something more convincing from him. Why is this so alarming to you?
Although I'll say this, Snike makes a good point with athena. I didn't notice that before.
58 minutes ago, Shinori said:Oh it's answered here. This is weird and I still feel that it's too wishy-washy or swingy for my taste. I'd like to request you to look into Athena if you could a bit more and give me some more reasons for why he's either town or scum.
I don't really see how it's wishy washy or swingy. I'm just saying I'm fine with looking into and seeing if my reads on him are correct or not. I think you're misreading my intent.
1 hour ago, Shinori said:The more I think about Nightmare the more I dislike him currently.
Hey now, that's getting personal.
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2 minutes ago, Nightmare said:
I wouldn't be against an athena scumread as he proposes.
I think I misunderstood this now that I think about it. I'm not especially keen on lynching athena, but I wouldn't mind reading further into his posts and interactions to determine his scumminess. I might just do that if I'm not feeling lazy.
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3 minutes ago, Snike said:
I can understand that, but Imo even when you do pop in, you could just take pieces and ask people specific questions. I'm kinda guilty of this too but Athena hasn't really responded to my opening stuff yet either, so I'm waiting on that.
Sure, I'll try to do that. I'm just not very experienced with NOC so I'm still trying to get my bearings here and a better feel for the game and the players. I guess I could do that with asking too, though, but I just dunno where to start.
1 minute ago, Zkirsche said:@Nightmare what are your thoughts on Junko? The list post isn't really doing a lot for me. Would like to see some more engagement. I know you say you're not around for discussions but you're not really asking many questions or particularly bold insights and that's more than worrisome. You don't need to be around much to make content. What about Athena's content makes you like him more, what do you make of Weapons' thought process on Athena and why do you disagree (or does it change your mind?)
Junko...I don't have that much of a read on him. In general he's kind of a flaky person, and I basically see that in how he's playing right now. We have similar thoughts on you, but I don't particularly care for his content otherwise.
athena's content isn't super stellar or anything, but the feeling I get from his posts and tone is making me drop my suspicions on him. He's been more engaging, even though most of it was focused on Bibbon and zeus, which might be a cause for concern, but that's generally it. Weapons' argument for athena's scumminess makes sense, but he admits it's not good enough to nail him. I wouldn't be against an athena scumread as he proposes.
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3 minutes ago, Snike said:
Nightmare needs to do more than just listpost.
I'm not around when most big discussions take place, so I just want to give my thoughts on stuff that's happened. If anything happens and I have something to say about it, sure.
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4 hours ago, Zkirsche said:
What is really annoying is how little people seem to want to comment/draw from it. Shinori just dismissed it and Walrein/Nightmare didn't even comment on it or the resulting cases on me. They don't talk about about what they agree/disagree with and why in terms of logic or whatever. Look at Refa, he has said what he thinks of my interpretation, what his interpretation is (the type of townie he thinks BBM is) and his thoughts on me as a result of that interpretation. That is a very townie analysis. By not even attempting any kind of interaction with that you're avoiding scumhutning/analysis so I want to ask @Shinori @Nightmare in particular why the above interpretation on BBM's actions in the early game is not agreeable, if my case comes from scum and why. Then if you woudl be so kind as to do the same for the cases on me that would be fantastic. Walrein is defo town so it's not enough to convict someone alone but it's annoying.
The worst offender is Nightmare who is voting me on gut without making these comments. He has said that he doesn't agree with my case (or isn't convinced at least) but doesn't explain why or why that means I'm scum. He is also voting me only after being prodded which I don't appreciate. Is anyone else scum? Anything on me more than just gut?
Yes, actually. I don't think your case on BBM makes you 100% scum, since it doesn't seem tunnelly enough. It was bothering me because it looked like you were doubling down on your case based on not much but tenuous (though not entirely unjustified, I'll admit) reads, and your analysis of his behaviour read as nitpicky to me more than anything else (but that might just be me not being aware of the greater meta of the universe). Of minor note is that I wasn't particularly fond of your tone, but your recent post reads more townish to me.
Regarding the vote, I did mention that I was already going to post. BBM just happened to do it before I did. Anyway, with that out of the way...
##Unvote
I think the pressure cooker did its work.
Current reads:
zeus I'm not entirely convinced on. His dismissive and flippant attitude really doesn't win him any points, but like others said he could just be an inexperienced town. The vig comment has me thinking though. Is that a softclaim?
Bibbon's reading town to me. She's been contributing a fair bit of content and sparking discussion, and the tone of her posts seem pretty good as well. Who knows, maybe that's actually scum Bibbon and I'm unaware of the greater meta.
athena has pulled himself out of suspicion for me for the most part. I won't say 100%, but leaning town for him. His recent content has been quite alright.
Fable's definitely leaning town for me.
The case on Marth being scum doesn't have me convinced all the way, but I will admit he's not doing much to get it off him. I'd like to see his defence in light of recent events.
Satsuma's case is proving to be interesting. Will watch how it unfolds before judging.
JB made a post, but it feels more like he did it out of obligation to escape the scum reads. Not feeling good about him. At best it's just bad play for a town.
Via seems town to me, and he's making some good reads that I agree with.
BBM also seems town, but there's something lacklustre about his posts in general.
Not much to say on everyone else.
##Vote: JB
This is the best use of my vote right now, I feel like.
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Fair enough.
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2 hours ago, Walrein said:
nate's intro post is really thin and i haven't decided if it's disinterested town after a prod or disinterested scum in general. i do get decent tonal vibes from his "sheep me" post
I thought it would be obvious the sheep post was a joke. I'm not that stupid.
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3 minutes ago, Refa said:
I'm really not motivated at all. YO NIGHTMARE-SAMA, you were entirely right about me seeming distant because I am.
See everyone, my read was correct, so you should all sheep me from now on.
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9 minutes ago, BBM said:
fable's attitude isn't exactly good but JB's vote on him gives me the same issues as Bibbon's thing about weapons. jb didn't exactly have any content before that post either. he didn't even give basic opinions on other people. feels like he saw something that was obviously bad and easy to push and jumped on it.
Also this is a good way to put it. I can agree with this.
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I don't feel too good about athena either, and it's between him and kirsche. I was actually about to
##Vote: zkirsche
Before you posted. Let's turn up this pressure cooker, shall we?
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I have been prodded. I would have preferred to wait longer, because all the reads I would have had have already been had, but let me give a few anyway:
Satsuma: Same old same old, either newbtown or scum. For what it's worth, I'm leaning a slight bit towards scum, but that's just a gut feeling, and those have been wrong in the past.
athena: Some of his arguments and posts seem a little confused and inconsistent. I'm not entirely convinced he's town.
kirsche: Something about kirsche is bothering me, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Call it another gut feeling. I guess because I didn't find his content to be all that compelling for the amount of words he used for it.
Refa: YO REFA-SAN. Pretty good so far. Reading town, but slightly detached, which makes me question my read. Could just be D1 malaise. Agreed with most of his reads, for what that's worth. Not that there's that much to go on, but.
eclipse: Good ol' eclipse. Seems pretty proactive and town-ish to me, but only time will tell.
Shinori: A little off, but nothing to write home about.
Walrein: Agreeing with eclipse, seems pretty town.
Fable: I'm not unwilling to take him for his word. Pretty null on him, but it does make u think.
Elie: His vote seemed more like a pressure/meme vote than anything, but we'll have to see once he's back. I'd like to hear his thoughts so far.
Junko: Honestly getting confused readings on him, which probably isn't a good sign.
Eurykins: This is the first time I'm seeing the legendary Eurykins wall post. Bravo.
Null: on everyone else.
We Need Serenes Forest Mafia Mafia 5 After All! - GAME OVER
in Mafia
Posted
This is fair. I'd say more but it might influence the game, so I'll leave it at that until postgame.
Good luck everyone.