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Kipor

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  1. Hey, everyone! Thank you for all the attention this topic been getting! I'll answer you all again as soon as possible - at the moment my college is kind of taking quite a bit of my time, but I'm already going through some supports of Peri to get a feel of her character and making some notes about her. I'll try to make an analysis as soon as possible. By the way, Tucking, feel free! You can post your analyzes whenever you desire, buddy (that a gender-neutral word, right? I'm pretty sure it is). Also, I didn't forget about your request; ages are a bit more complicated since I have to go through several characters for that, but I'll try and make the analysis after the Peri one, since that one requires a bit less in terms of research. But again, thank you all!
  2. ... I need to stop trying to guess people's gender's by the avatar and start actually looking at the gender thingie, haha! Sorry about that, my mistake! But the sentiment remains! Your words are appreaciated, good lady! Thank you! And yeah, it's really not that easy to betray your country or king, especially if you had respect/admiration foi them in the past. Taking the Sacred Stones in comparison, for example, we have Duessel, Glen and Selene as the original generals of Grado - all respectable soldiers with a good moral compass. Of the three, only Duessel eventually defects; Glen is killed by Valter when he tries to go back to Grado and question the Emperor, while Selene remains loyal to the end and dies facing Ephraim. And none of these were kin to said Emperor. Hm, truth be told, the priorities are something I thought considerably on. It really seems that way sometimes, yes, but I believe that if it was really that way, then he would not defect in Revelations upon hearing about how his father wants to destroy Nohr. That scene, in my impression, made Xander defect since it breaks his delusions about Garon while at the same time putting the one thing he cares the most in danger. In my opinion, if his father was really a priority over the nation, he would keep deluding himself or following his orders nevertheless. In other words, I get your point and it's a really good point, but in the end, I do still think that he considered the country a great priority over his father, while at the same time he deluded/convinced himself into thinking that his father had the best for the country in mind. Not exactly a smart thing to do, but somewhat humane in my opinion; I can see people doing that. Sure! Truth be told, she was someone I was planning to analyze later. I'll be going through her supports and all later, try to dig up what I can on her. Loki, sorry, the system didn't quote your post among the other ones for some reason, my apologies. Yeah, I heard the theory about the Tournament of Harrenhal being made so that he could meet up with lords and all, but it wasn't really confirmed, was it? I'm not following Westeros or GRRM that close right now, so I can't say for sure, but I think it's still a theory (even if a very possible one). Regardless, yeah, there's enought evidence for you to say that Rhaegar was conspiring to take Aerys off the throne, but, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's also known that he had a lot of hesitation in acting against Aerys; his last talk with Jaime before leaving confirms that, if I'm not mistaken. Besides, while Rhaegar may have been conspiring against Aerys, it wasn't as if Aerys had shown signs of madness for quite some time (the Duskendale incident being a example), and while he may be conspiring, I do not recall a instance of him challenging his father's decisions or anything like that. Also, in regards to the rebellion, I think Robert was only really made it's leader after the Trident, no? Before that he was quite a prominient figure, yes, but not that different from, say, Eddard Stark or Jon Arryn. And yes, while he was really pissed and probably wanted all Targaryens death, I do not think the same would extend to the other leaders. If instead of marching against them Rhaegar had, for example, taken his father in chains, deposing him and sent a raven to the rebels asking for a parley so that they could negociate peace, even if Robert was against this, Jon and Ned would certainly be in favor. In other words, I believe he could have taken a different course of action in regards to the war and his father, but he chose to first win the war to only then call a council to decide what to do with his father. Not exactly the same circunstances as Xander, sure, but it seems that two were very unwilling to go against their respectives fathers, even while knowing how dangerous they had become. By the way, did you ever participate in the Westeros forum with a avatar of a cat attacking a finger that tries to click something? I feel like I remember someone at that forum with a similar name to yours, but I may be mistaken.
  3. Thank you! Hahaha, I'm afraid a good part of that is paying attention to auto-correct and using google translate whenever I have a doubt about something. I went through that post several times before posting, so I hope there weren't a lot of mistakes. Sure! I never thought about that in depth, but I can see why it can be interesting. Gonna start doing some research on that, see what I can come up with. Hmmm... I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think what went on is exactly what you're saying in those two options (thought it does lean considerably towards the second one). Personally, I think Xander agreed with the sentiment of what Elise asked - stop figthing his family - but I don't think he necessarily thinks that this is the right thing to do. What I mean by that is the following: he is the crown prince. In his mind, this estabilishes a certain sense of duty that he must follow, certain things he must do. Being loyal to father and country is one of those things, and while I think that he knows Garon is more-than-a-little-off-the-line, the respect and admiration he had for him, joined by this sense of duty, made him so loyal. So, in his mind, following his father's orders (at least where they are sensible) and protecting Nohr (both crown and country) is the "right thing to do", because of his position. So, basically, what I think is that while he, Xander the Person, wanted to do what Elise asked and stop figthing, Xander the Crown Prince still thought he needed to keep his loyalty and defeat Corrin. In other words, he was conflicted, and that internal conflict made him unable to go all out on Corrin. Like I said, it leans towards the second, but differenciates in that he's not putting a show: he really is trying, even if he ultimately can't bring himself to give his all. And, of course, there is the whole "depressed state after killing sister" to take into account too. Thank you! Your kind words are appreaciated, good sir! Yeah, like I said to Seafarer, I do think this played a role in it, but that at the same time the issue with Xander was deeper than that, you know? But it's cool! I'm just trying to explain (and at the same time, understand) his motivations for what he did in various points. Ooooh, boy, that is going to be a long one. 1: #sorrynotsorry 2: Wait... how does that change anything in what pertains to the discussion at hand? I mean, we're discussing Xander's character here, not the story of Birthright, Conquest or Revelations. Sure, one of the things I tried to do is explain his behavior at certain points of the story, but those are relevant to his character. The discussion is not exactly about how good is his development through a particular campaign or how is the development of a particular story, but about trying to understand his character in a general sense and trying to figure out why he acts in a particular way at certain events. I understand what you're getting at, but I don't think the fact that the story-telling is not great is particularly relevant to the issue at hand (with the exception of we never seeing the kind Garon. I agree with you that seeing this kind Garon would help in understanding and empathizing with the character of Xander, though, that said, the lack of this doesn't decharacterizes him (I'm half sure there a easier word for that. Blame Google Translate)). 3: True, Nohr is the agressor and, while it's hinted at other motivations besides Garon for the attacks, it's not really elaborated so much on them. But, does that really change things that much? Xander is the crown prince. As the crown prince of any nation, duty and honor demands that you follow the will of that nation and defend it's interests. Granted, you may choose to not do so if you disagree with said interested in a moral or ethical point, but in doing that you are going against what your duty demands of you. While it's true that Nohr attacked Hoshido, the fact that Hoshido is attacking Nohr doesn't change. It's not so much a question of who is in the right or wrong; Xander has loyalty and duty to his nation, and regardless of whether Nohr is on the right or wrong, defending Nohr and it's interests is one of his priorities. And, like I said in the analyzes, he believes (even if deluding himself to it) that his father have Nohr's best interests in mind, which motivates him to work towards it's goals. 4: You speak as if turning against your father is a easy thing to do. It really is not, especially when you’re in a position such as Xander – when said father is someone who you admired and respected for years. Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying that what he did is the right thing or anything like that, but I’m explaining his motivations. Knowing that there’s something wrong with someone does not mean you will want to act against said person, especially if said person is someone dear to you. For example, take Rhaegar from GRRM A Song of Ice and Fire. He knew his father was dangerous, knew his father was mad, was known for being brave and noble and kind, but never acted against him. Even after his father burned a man to death, had another strangled while laughing, called the heads of people innocents and started one of the greatest civil wars in the history of the kingdom, he didn’t come to the capital and put his father in chains. Instead, he personally commanded the royal army to battle with the rebels. Whoa, actually, Xander is a lot like Rhaegar in regard to their fathers… 5: Now, you’re taking a lot of things out of the equation here. For example: Xander defends his siblings from his father a lot of times, both in indirect ways (sending Elise and her retainers to help Corrin, for example) and in a lot more direct ways (outright calling his father out and saying he won’t kill Corrin for him). As I tried to explain in my analyzes, Xander’s threat to Corrin is because, if proven false, Corrin would have been trying to incite the siblings to rebel against Garon, which would go directly against two of his priorities – and like I said, his father and country are bigger priorities for him than his siblings. Similarly, he doesn’t simply ignore Elise’s death; I’m not going to repeat myself since I feel I’ve already elaborated on this particular point, but things go deep in regards to that, and even if they didn’t, it’s not like the character doesn’t literally show himself to be deeply saddened by her death. 6: No, that would be a just man. To be brave is not to stand against injustices, but to not fear your enemies, to face challenges head on, to show no fear. You can very easily be a brave man fighting for an unjust cause. Likewise, while one of the meanings of noble truly pertains to an exalted moral, the word has many meanings, and Xander falls in a lot of them. Like I pointed out, he displays several noble traits, both in the way he acts and in the way he carries himself. True, you may try to make a point of questioning his nobility in regards to his morals, but even so he displays a sense of morality and honor at several points: insisting on a duel without assistance, granting Ryoma the duel he asked, defending Corrin from things like the Faceless or Iago and Hans… hell, one can even say that sticking to your nation and following your duty and sense of loyalty, regardless of your sentiments about it’s ruler and what he does until the bitter end is honorable. So, there’s that. Also, Tactician D., I forgot to quote you - sorry about that! Thank you for taking the time to read this, and yeah, I can see your point. Though I feel like this is something kind of inevitable with this kind of characters. In Xander's case, I believe his loyalty to his father causes him to believe that following him is the best for Nohr, but we know it's not and it seems sometimes that he is deluding himself to think in a particular way. I can understand why he acts in this particular way, but, while I would not necessarily call it cowardish, he's definetly not acting in the most brilliant way in the situation. Understandable, but... y'know...
  4. Hello people, and welcome! To a “Kipor Analyzes Stuff in Fates”. I’m your host, Kipor, and today we shall begin the analysis! ... Did that sound like a youtuber intro? Yes? Woohoo, success! So, now in all seriousness, welcome everyone. This little topic right here is one in which I... well, analyze stuff. But! That doesn’t give you a really good idea on what I’ll be doing here, right? Well, allow me to try and explain myself. Now, as some of you may know... Fates gets a lot of shit. Let me repeat that, slowly: a LOT of shit. Now, it isn’t as if that’s undeserved per se: the story has some pretty considerable faults and, well, let’s say it’s not exactly what most people were looking for and leave it at that, hm? But, thing is! One of the things I noticed, and some may have noticed as well, is that many of the points raised against Fates seem to come from... misunderstanding, so to say. It may seem weird to say that, but characters and events in Fates sometimes are a lot more complex that they may seem at first. What is deliberately shown to us is, many times, no half of what is really going on. You need to analyze something so that you can truly understand what is going on and why is it going on, why things are that way. Want a example? When, exactly, is it explicitly said that Anankos possessed Takumi in Conquest? Now, to explain a little more in what I’m going to do... it’s pretty simple, truth be told. I will try to analyze things. Characters, events, you name it. Tell me something you would like to hear an analyses on and, well, I’ll try to do it. I’ll try to explain what happened, I will try to explain the motivations and reasoning behind some actions. “Try” being the keyword here, folks. Keep in mind, the point of this is to discuss said things and to make the story better for everyone in a way or another. Also keep in mind that this is my explanation, based on how I interpreted things. And, this may seem hard to believe, but I’m not the “Lord of Truth”. What I say isn’t necessarily right and you don’t need to agree with it, and that’s fine, I won’t push it down your throat. What I’m offering here is no more than a point of view, a way to look at things, a different perspective. If you agree or disagree with that, or if you want to discuss something… well, that’s up to you. Also, I feel I must put this here before anything else: not a native English speaker! I’m born and raised in Brazil, buddies, and I’ve had no formal training in English besides verb to be. So, if things are a little hard to understand, well, my apologies in advance! Now, with that said, let us proceed to the very first thing I want to analyze… CROWN PRINCE XANDER OF NOHR Now, this guy is hated, I must tell you that. At least in what pertains to the story itself; seems like people like him a lot more in supports. But, what I’m going to get into is story. So, ahem, let’s go! The oldest of the Nohr siblings, Xander is – and correct me if I’m wrong since I’m not checking this particular piece of information – the firstborn son of Garon, before all the others born to his other wives and mistresses. One thing that is a pretty big part about the character of Xander is that, unlike everyone else (including us), he saw and lived with the actual Garon. Not the goo monster that twirls his mustache while training his evil speeches, but the actual, living and (supposedly) good Garon. Now, we don’t know really that much about this Garon since we ever saw it, but no-one can deny that he was very important to Xander. Described as a intimidating – but nevertheless kind – father, Garon was a very important piece in shaping who Xander is. Throughout the story, it’s made pretty clear that Xander had a lot of love, respect and admiration for the man that Garon was. Fast forward a couple years and we have a Garon that is not exactly that lovable. I mean, if you don’t enjoy guys who eat kitten-soup, then I guess you won’t be a fan of Garon. But, as far as Xander knows, that evil Garon was the same Garon he loved. And, as we can see, he thinks he is sick. Not, I can’t remember if this was during Birthright, Conquest or Revelations, but one specific scene shows that: one where Xander is speaking to Leo and talks about how their father is sick and how he would get better after Hoshido is conquered. Now – is it just me, or do we have here one of the main motivations for Xander during the war? But, let us establish somethings now. Let us talk about loyalties, hm? As with the rest of the siblings, Xander displays a strong sense of loyalty towards his siblings. He loves them, after all, but, unlike the rest of the siblings, he doesn’t love them above all else. In fact, as much as Xander cares about them, there are two things that he loves above them: his father – for the reasons stated before – and his home: the Kingdom of Nohr. If we were to organize things, we could say his loyalties and priorities are the following: FIRST – THE KINGDOM OF NOHR SECOND – HIS FATHER, GARON THIRD – HIS SIBLINGS (CAMILLA, LEO, ELISE AND THE AVATAR) Now, let’s take a moment to analyze this, shall we? Let’s consider these priorities and think about how they relate to the story. During the Birthright campaign, Xander displays a lot of hatred towards the Avatar. Well, maybe “hatred” is kind of a strong word, but he is definetly angry at the Avatar, and this is because of the betrayal. By siding with Hoshido, the Avatar betrayed both his family, his family (well, Xander’s father at any rate) and the kingdom of Nohr in Xander’s eyes, which motivates that hate. Xander consistently shows himself determined to follow the orders of his father – even if that puts him at odds with his siblings. That is something that makes sense for his character, not only because his loyalty towards his father is greater than the loyalty he feels towards his siblings, but also because he truly believes (or deludes himself to believe) that his father have the best interests of Nohr at heart, what makes him think that whatever his father orders is for the greater good of Nohr. During the end of Conquest, Xander threatens to kill the Avatar after he tells the siblings about goo-Garon if his claims are proven false. Again, that is in character with Xander; he loves Avatar and is loyal to him, but if what he’s saying is a lie, then he is trying to incite the siblings to rebel against Garon – which would be an act of treachery both to his father and the kingdom of Nohr. At the same time, during the end of Conquest, Xander is the first of the siblings to take up arms to fight against Garon after seeing the truth in what the Avatar says. That is because at that point he realized that he was never following his real father during this time and that whatever that thing was, it was manipulating and sabotaging Nohr for it’s own ideals. That makes goo-Garon an enemy to Xander, since that means he goes against the three things Xander holds dearest. During Revelations, Xander eventually betrays Garon. That is the only route in which this happens, and that is motivated by one thing: he hear Garon talk about how he wished to destroy Nohr. This, at the same time, made Xander realize that this Garon was not the same Garon he knew and triggered his buttons by going against his kingdom. And now, now we’ve reached the juicy part: Elise’s death in Birthright. One of the biggest things that make people hate Xander is how he insisted on fighting the Avatar, even after killing his own sister by accident during said fight. A lot of people wanted Xander to stop fighting at that point, to realize the mistake he was making and to turn against Garon… but it’s simply not that easy. Remember the priorities of Xander? Nohr, father, siblings. Nohr, father, siblings. Even if Garon was a cruel tyrant who killed people on a whim and declared a invasion upon Hoshido, Xander still saw the man he admired and loved. He thought that Garon was sick, he thought the war was for the good of Nohr, and he was loyal to the bone to this cause: Hans himself praises his loyalty to Nohr in Revelations. Turning against his father or simply doing nothing would both be a betrayal to the two things he loved the most: his country and father. Does that mean he didn’t love Elise? That he didn’t care about her death? No, not at all. Xander loved her a lot, he loved all his siblings. His anger toward the Avatar is built both upon his feelings of betrayal and on the love he had for the sibling that turned against the things he holds dearest. When Elise was killed by his blade, Xander broke: it really is as simple as that. He was sad, he was depressed, and he wanted to die. But still, he felt like he had to defend the things he cared about. It was not a matter of simply ignoring the dying wish of his sister, but a matter of Xander not being able to follow that wish: to stand down would mean that he would let the forces of Hoshido reach (and as far as he knows, kill) his father while, at the same time, mean that he would let Nohr, the country that he loves, lose the war. He would let the two things he held dearest to his heart down if he were to follow his sister wishes, and that is something that he was unwilling to do. During the story, Xander is repeatedly described and brave and noble. And, at the end of the day, he was. He never feared any enemy or any situation, always charging into the thick of battle regardless of the odds (as shown during Conquest, when he fights the Faceless while the Avatar makes his/her escape). And he was noble; that was shown in his sense of chivalry (ordering Peri and Laslow to not interfere in the duel against the Avatar), in the regal and imposing way he carried himself (very much what one would expect for a king or prince) and in his sense of duty towards the crown and king, carrying his missions in the best way possible (while at the same time trying to damage-control his father “madness”, as Leo says in Conquest by pointing out how the Nohrian siblings try to deal with Garon’s orders, as well as shown in the prologue with sparing Rinkah and Kaze). In the end, the conclusion I reach upon trying to analyze Xander’s character is basically this: he is very complex. He is a man with a great sense of honor and a strong code of morals, but with misguided loyalties that lead him to do things he would otherwise not do. He isn’t blind to how evil Garon is, but he can’t bring himself to go against the father he loved and admired so much in the past, nor against the nation he was born into. His sense of duty to father and nation guide his actions and hand, but he is not without his own way of thinking; while he tends to avoid going openly against his father wishes, he has no qualms against acting on his own at times when he feels so is needed. And, despite being very loyal to his father, Xander’s ultimate loyalty is to his country; if his country is on the line, he would go even against his father, and if he feels that something his father orders is not in the interest of Nohr and said thing goes against something Xander himself holds dear, then he is willing to challenge his own father for it (as shown in Conquest when he refuses to kill Corrin for no good reason). … So, uh… I hope this is legible? And I hope this was actually enjoyable. So, um, that said, I… well, that’s basically it I had in mind for now so, uh… be sure to… y’know… recommend a character or… stuff… you would like me to analyze! Yeah! That would be cool, I guess… I mean, at least reasonably cool as far as things go and… well, like I said, I hope this can be fun for you guys since it’s definitely been a lot of fun for me and, I, well, hope I’m not doing anything wrong with this and all, so I, uh, I hope to… ... Y’know what? I’m just gonna shut up now. See ya.
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