leesangstar10

How does she have 1-3 range?? Isn't bolt axe 1-2 or am I just missing something? You forgot how her str growth is only 30% and how any other physical focused unit can be wyvern lord but do better. It's not like she's garbage, but she is terrible relative to the other characters.

Huh that makes a lot of sense. But do you think it is just a reference?

Okay there are going to be heavy spoilers for three houses and especially Edelgard's route. In case you didn't know, but this song is talking from the perspective of Edelgard. I am going to be talking about her a lot(and Byleth) Hopefully you guys can help me with things I might have missed or misunderstood. These are the full lyrics btw Reach for my hand So this is referring to you, Byleth directly. I’ll soar awayInto the dawn It seems like she is basically asking for help to reshape Fodlan free of crest. Makes sense since in any of the other routes, she always lose. Only when Byleth on her side, she will be able to achieve her dreams.Oh I wish I could stayHere in cherished hallsIn peaceful days This is seems to refer to the Academy and how she wants to stay in this peaceful and happy state; however,...I fear the edge of dawnKnowing time betrays Knowing time betrays seems to refer how Edelgard knows that eventually Garrag Mach isn't going to be the same once the war starts and all those peaceful days will end. Not exactly sure what Edge of Dawn means/refers to. I think it might be the war?? Daylight pass through colored glassIn this beloved placeSilver shines, the world dinesA smile on each face This just seems to be describing how happy and wonderful it is at Garegg Mach. Everybody is happy and there seems like nothing is going wrong. As joy surrounds, comfort abounds and I can feel I'm breaking free For just this moment lost in time. I am finally me This seems to refer Edelgard's inner struggle and burden. While she is enjoying her time at Garegg Mach, all heavy burden is lifted up and she can finally enjoy herself. She doesn't have to hold a image and can just enjoy being a high school girl. This is evident by some moments we see such as her fan girling over Byleth, her A support where she imitates Hubert, and more. Yet still I hide Behind this mask that I have become This shows how while her time at Garegg Mach helps be herself, she still has to hold an image as a house leader and eventually empress. It also seems to refer to the secrets that she like her second crest and identity as flame emperor and I have become references the experiments that have been done onto her and eventually made her the way she is. My blackened heart Scorched by flames of a force I can't run from Blackened heart seems to refer to how detached she became after the experiments. In her route, there is a cutscene where she explains her fear of rat and the heavy burden and emotionally grief she has as she saw her siblings one by one die for her sakes. Scorched by flames seems to refer to the crest of flames she bear since they manually inserted that crest into her. They use the word scorched to further show the pain she suffered, almost as if this crest is like a scar. Force I can't run from seems to refer to Those Who Slither in the Dark. They are constantly around her since her childhood and she can't help it. Even after she becomes empress, she still needs them as she lacks the strength. As I live out Each peaceful day Deep in my soul Oh, I know I can't stay So I wish I Could hide away Hold tight to what I love, Keep cruel fate at bay Further emphasizing my point above how she wishes to stay and live out her peaceful life at Garreg Mach; however, she knows that she has a duty to do and eventually her time as a student is going to be over. As the rain falls on the path, I chase your shadow I don't feel a single drop, Or the ground below Again referring to Byleth. Not exactly sure what this is implying, but I think it is talking about how distant and unemotionally detached she feels as she walk her path(being empress and starting a war). Then you turn to me and I Stop before I know And the lie upon my lips I let it go This is talking about how as Byleth and Edelgard gets closer, she starts to revealing the secrets she keeps such as the crest of flames and family. Cross my heart Making vows I know will be betrayed Talking about how she swore to not let her siblings' death be in vain. She knows her path to start a war and free the world from crest will lead to betrayal, evident by the spies in her army leaking info. A sad girl's pleas Live only for a breath and then they fade Sad girl's pleas is referring to herself, hoping the cycle of suffering will end. Not sure about the next line. Don't ever take Back your kind hand Talking to Byleth hoping that he/she will stay with her through her journey. Lest precious love Slip away like time's sand I have no idea lol. Pls help. Only we will know All that was lost Talking to Byleth but not sure what "lost" refers to. Maybe because both have lost their family??? Scars that we can't erase Her burden and the crest of flames. Show us life's true cost These "scars" took everything that was important from her and due to it, she is unable to have a regular happy life. The blue moonlight Cuts across our sight As pure and clear as a ringing bell Reaching for us in the night As the wind calms my thoughts, I have strung on this terrace I feel at peace, Carried away by the wind's song No idea again pls help. Open the door And walk away Never give in To the call of yesterday I think it is talking about Edelgard's unwavering determination. Throughout the route, she always had doubts and felt guilt of the blood she spilled. However, despite all this, she still lead everyone to war. Memories that made Those days sublime These ruined halls entomb Stolen time Comparing her time back at Garegg Mach and the present where it is all ruin due to the after math of the war. If the war didn't start, everybody would be happily living their lives out as students. But the war took all that away. I look to you Like a red rose Seeking the sun No matter where it goes Again talking to Byleth. This is emphasizing how much Edelgard needs Byleth as much as flower needs sun. Whether if Byleth is in a different house, she still needs him. Evident by the cutscene where you kill her, saying how she wished to walk with Byleth. I long to stay, Where the light dwells To guard against the cold That I know so well Light refers to Byleth. He is the only one that can help her, evident how she dies and her plan fails in all the other routes. To guard against the cold that I know so well refers to the evil that crest created, the experiments to her and Lysithea, Rhea's sketchy methods in reviving Sothis, and the cruel society it has created such as Mikilan, Sylvain's older brother. Hopefully this help people gain a new perspective on Edelgard. My first play through I didn't like her much(played GD). But after playing her route and looking more in depth with the lyrics of this song, she definitely became my favorite villain all time and second most favorite character in Three houses(Claude is the best still). I am no English major so I could be wrong and if there is anything I missed that someone explains it, I'll do my best to update this post. Also fire emblem best soundtrack and theme.

Nerfing wyvern will make it less abusable as of right now. Enemy units don't take advantage of the dismount function so nerfing wyverns will affect the player much more than the enemy. So in a way it does make the game harder. I highly doubt that they will add a weapon triangle since it is kind of difficult to implement it right now.

I mean we were basing off of best builds for said unit and ignoring team synergy. So this is giving more of a chance for low tier units lol. Honestly I prob go that route(except pegasus) too since mobility and flair. I feel like Gremory is an overrated class. x2 magic use barely matters unless its for warp/rescue. x2 Fortify is nice ig but 4 feels like such an overkill, maybe 4 isn't enough for lunatic lol.

What about giving quick reposte on enemies 🤔 that definitely would encourage me to use war master and mortal servant for the extra damage.

yeah maybe I am punishing units a bit too much for player phase exclusive, but enemy phase is still more important. Also it is pretty much fact that she is the worst or second to mage in the game so honestly her tier isn't changing(maybe her placing within the tier might change).

Agreed. Then it would make quick repost relevant. 1. If you are playing kinda of slowly or grinding maybe, but we assume optimal plays so Annette as a mage isn't going to be healing much, especially since she doesn't even get physics and won't be entering combat that much since she is too squishy as an enemy phase unit. My first play through it literally took all 10 levels for me to master a class and I was playing kinda slow so it definitely will take at least 8. 2. True I was just pointing how the time to actually get to wyvern rider ur prob gonna be at least 25. 3. True nothing to really say. But I just don't see the real point in doing all this just so Annette becomes faster. Darting blow only works player phase so it doesn't fix her speed that much and she isn't going to double still since the axe weighs a lot. Also, being a player phase exclusive unit isn't that good and inefficient. Lysithea is an exception since she gets warp and a reliable boss killer. And wyvern lords are suppose to be enemy phase units so the class doesn't fit her that well. I rather just make her go through the mage route.

It usually takes around 8 levels to master a class so grabbing both fiendish and darting blow isn't reasonable, unless you skip the advance class. Weight -3 is kinda hard to get since Annette is bad at armor and she already has a lot to skills to work on so not sure if you want her to become a wyvern lord. If you are using canto to move out of danger, why don't you just keep her as a mage with Thyrsus. She's already squishy anyways so losing 10hp isn't that big of a deal.

I mean a lot of people ignore it because they don't want to be stuck with 4 move again. Brigand at least you gets 5 move and a really good mastery skill death blow on top of that. Weight -3 is a crazy skill, but there isn't really a reason to class change into an armor knight for that. You can have tutor up to C which isn't that hard. @Shadow Mir mention this and I just wanna add is that bolt axe is 15 weight and Annette has a 35% spd growth. She is in no way doubling, might get her double. Pegasus knight spd boost isn't enough since that's only 10%(basically your getting 1 extra spd every 10 lvls). She is also very squishy. Wyvern lords are front line units and she has base 25% hp and 20%def growths. Literally any grappler or axe enemy is going to one shot her. Her relic comes so pretty late in the game(also requires the Gilbert C support and blue lion exclusive). It doesn't really matter if her relic is really strong, she still dies in one shot on the front line.

Currently wyverns can kill anything, but in lunatic it might be a different story.

Quicker class mastery could help armor units like Dedue and Raphael since they can get quick reposte earlier and actually be relevant late game. Ofc this wouldn't help Mortal savant though. Buffing classes could work. I doubt they will nerf a class because that could cause backlash from fans or maybe include more better non mounted classes(hopefully it isn't dlc locked) since there is no good sword master class(mortal savant is pretty mediocre even without the movement issue). I didn't see anybody bring this up but buff weapons. Swords and gauntlets are pretty bad. Gauntlets are only good until brave weapons come in play. Swords are one range locked. Buffing them could give more of a reason for people wanna use respective master classes, mortal savant and war master. Probably not the best choice but... Make adjutant more like pair up, but only have it work with move. Like if I pair my war master with a flier, my war master will have 8 move like the flier, no stat buffs. This could allow more variety of classes since it fixes the movement problem.

Idk if you consider this a reward but: Annette and Gilbert C support unlocks a paralogue which you can get the hero relic crusher. C support with rhea also gives you a paralogue too with a shield as a reward(forgot the names). I know that usually characters with unique dialogues when doing activities together change based on their support level.

Huh someone told me they could kill ig they were wrong. I think whether having a crest for a relic should still matter especially for your front line units early game. 10hp is still a lot early game, around a third of ur hp. Fighting 2 units on enemy phase could get you killed or near death. Imo only early access to a crest weapon should really matter in tiering cause losing 10hp matters for there and there are sacred weapons that are somewhat on par with crest weapons later on the game. Crest weapon not killing might affect Lorenz's tier placement though. If we assume optimal play, mages should never get hit. So I can basically have a 1hp mage throughout a whole map. I do think I should award a unit's flexibility more in this tier list since I'm ignoring team synergy. But Marianne as a flyer isn't that great tbh. Early flyer is nice, but having a healer early game with physics is much better and provide more to the team than a flyer. In a GD run, Marianne is going to be your best and most reliable healer. Lorenz and Lysithea can't learn physics and with there crap move, they aren't going to being healing much.

I mean you don't want a team full of mounts. I am ignoring team synergy. Just rating the unit's best build. I did talk about some skills before like Ashe having access to death blow, which is the reason why I used to put him in A. However, I realized Ashe struggles in mid game if you make him go brigand vs Bernie who's personal is kinda like death blow that also works on enemy phase. I probably should include maybe builds, but that is too much work. Maybe if we all work together it is possible. Crest weapons is kind of the reason I am unsure about the placement within the tier because having early access to it makes a unit's early game potential insane. Some examples are Ingrid and Sylvain. Durability isn't even a problem too since time skip restores weapon durability. Annette just sucks in general lol. She has 4 move majority of the game, which hurts her score a lot.(Lorenz and Lysithea doesn't have this issue due to relic), the worst overall spell list imo, doesn't have the greatest growths, and late game crusher is just the icing on the cake. Idk I kinda hate her because I had a dumb debate with someone that thinks Annette is one of the best if not best magic user(her character is nice, but that debate made me frustrated for days). Like I said I am not considering team synergy. Basically judging on the unit's best build so that's why I just have everybody as a wyvern lord. Might give some points in flexibility if the other build is good. I do agree I should bump Sylvain up because of his early access to relic, but I wasn't sure where within the tier he should go. Marianna. The reason why I only considered her as a mage only because you won't be able to use physics if you are any other class. Her utility provides much more than her combat imo.

Tierlist v3.0 Tier is ordered This is a general tier list not a LTC or route specific. I tried to be as non bias as possible and consist of theory crafting/discussions from this forum. If there is something you disagree with tell me and we can have an insightful discussion :). Also take this with a grain of salt since this is still a new game. Rating criteria: This is Classic Hard Mode. Not new game plus. So no using renown to get class mastery skills I WILL consider the skills/art units can get as they class change or level their weapon skills. Ex. Getting death blow from brigand along the way to wyvern lord Availability for student is based on the house they are from. I did this because students outside your house availability can vary based on your Byleth’s skill level. This balances things out and will make it less complicated. Ex. Will not consider Hilda’s late available recruitment option in church route. However, I will consider Alois’s very late recruitment since he is recruited late in all routes. Will consider the investment into the unit. Like how hard it is to reach the minimum certification requirement for a certain class. Ex. Difficulty of getting Dorothea to a dark knight since she is bad at riding and neutral in lance. Canto/mount is broken. This will affect a unit’s rating a lot. Optimal plays. No luck based strats using divine pulse or killing one enemy each turn. Crest, Hero relic, and sacred weapons. Factors not considered: Team synergy Dancer class change. Anybody can be a dancer and can be really good. Grinding and new game plus features. Can make any unit good/broken Currently pretty happy with where everybody is tier wise, but I think the ordering within the tier can improve. D tier is just there for lunatic mode. Lots of units are probably gonna move down. S tier: Byleth: has one of the best and early access to a hero relic with great growth rates. Great reclass option with his unique class and flier class. Female is better than male due to pegasus reclass option. Claude: a broken flyer with a broken hero relic Edelgard: Best class is actually wyvern lord. Her combat art is kinda like gale force hence making it possible to cheese maps. Personally haven't used it, but everybody seems to agree that she is S. Lysithea is amazing with the hero relic and later on will be the best reliable way to kill the death knight in Lunatic. A tier: Petra and Ingrid: Serve as early game flier with decent growths. Pretty much the same with minor differences such as Petra is easier to become a wyvern rider, but Ingrid gets a hero relic pretty early. Catherine: Broken the moment you get her. Makes the mid game a joke. Reclass her to a pegasus knight and later falcon knight and she will be relevant all the way through. Ditmitri: Easily the best bow knight in the game. Great growths, bases, and weapon. Leonie, Felix, Shamir(bow knight squad A): Pretty similar but all really good. Leonie has good personal, growths, low investment, can become early game cav and provide stride. Felix has the best growths, but require the most investment out of all of the. Personal is really good early game, but will become useless after mid game. Bad in authority also hurts. Shamir good prepromote with decent personal. Also low investment and really helps mid game. Seteth: Great flyer with good combat art, growths, and starting class. Late availability hurts Linhardt: Best staff/faith magic utility. Can use warp and use physics. He can use gambits to make up the lack of not having an AOE healing spell. Offensively really decent too. Hilda: Good axe user with great hero relic. Can be early game pegasus. Bad in authority doesn’t hurt as much since flier batallions are limited. But still great unit. Sylvain and Ferdinand: Lol similar design and growth rates. These two are very similar since they both will end up as great knights or wyvern lords(personally think you should do this instead). Provide early game high mobility and could great stride users. B tier: Bernie, Ashe, Ignatz(bow knight squad B): Tier below bow knight squad A due to worse growth rates. All are basically the same. Cyril: Basically he screams needing lots of investment. Has potential to be good, but there are basically better units with less investments. Leonie is basically the same as Cyril as a bow knight (they both have 40% str and 60% spd but Leonie comes earlier) and Seteth when he joins you will have similar stats but with no investment and good personal skill. Still can become a solid bow knight or wyvern lord. Flayn: Great staff/faith magic utility. It is about the same as Linhardt, except she requires much more investment. Still rescue is nice to save the green units and could help move units that are behind forward. Still the investment cost makes her a tier below Linhardt. Lorenz: Basically a bow knight that targets res with his hero relic. He is lower than the bow knights because the difficulty to one shot enemies due to mediocre Spd. His magic growth isn’t high enough to one shot to and doesn't have like a brave weapons bow knights have. He at least doesn’t have a mobility issue unlike the mages below him. Hubert: A worse Lorenz imo. His offensive capabilities is better but Lorenz has the staff that gives him +2 range. Also Lorenz is easier to promote as a dark knight. Still solid unit. Dorothea: An average mage, but has access to meteor making her pretty good. But the difficulties promoting her to a dark knight and not that great faith spells make her worse than Hubert slightly. Also I KNOW SHE CAN BE A DANCER BUT SO CAN THE OTHER STUDENTS THIS IS WHY I AM IGNORING THAT RECLASS. So many people told me about and it is annoying to keep on telling them to read the rules. Mercedes: Best healer, but doesn't do much for her. Still a solid unit and can be your primary/only healer. Marianna: Okay combat and decent staff utility. Silence is bad since bosses are unaffected by it and the only useful spell is physics. Below Mercedes and Dorothea due to unable to provide something unique out of the three. Still great Manuala: Good staff/faith magic utility with warp. Unfortunately she is a big investment for her master class Gremory or Holy Knight. A tier below Linhardt since less of an investment and doesn’t have access to physics unlike Manuala. Caspar: Just decent all across the board. He can be a good wyvern lord but will require lots of investment. War master is decent and their class mastery skill is amazing, but at that point, you will be mostly finished with the game. C tier: Raphael: Love this man, but 15% spd just really hurts and he requires equal or more investment than the wyvern units above. He can be a good tank with possibility to self heal(personal +goddess ring) but tanks in general aren't that good. Great character, but bad unit. Dedue: Bad at both riding and flying. He is about the same as Raphael, but personally found Raphael better because he can self heal and neutral at flying. Might be necessary early game in lunatic, but now C. Hanneman: A worse Dorothea. Has similar spell list but with no physics and meteor is A+ reason, comes much later, and his spd growth is trash 20%. Still his thoron use and meteor is useful. Annette: Her spell options aren't that good. Terrible faith spells and decent/alright reason. Hero relic is blue lion locked, making her even worse in other routes in other routes. (I am still judging this from all routes, only availability is route based). Has the worst spd out of the mage students. Gilbert: Terrible starting class, meh growths, and bad availability. He is better than Alois just because it is easier for him to become a Great Knight or Wyvern lord and better personal skill. Alois: Terrible availability, terrible base class, and terrible personal skill. Also has bad proficiency in flying so he is basically has to be a War Master(which is the second worse master class imo). He could be a Great Knight, but that will require lots of investment and at that point of the game, you would basically be almost done.

Personally I think this should be experimented more. There is too much theory crafting and is possible for a not NG+ play through? Instead of wyvern lord you can be a wyvern rider. Pretty sure this is what Silly meant to say. Just because you're a wyvern rider doesn't mean you can't use bows. It's not like assassins give something extra when you use a bow(except skill proficiency) Well it is kinda the game's fault for making them so broken and breaking the balance. Fliers were always really good across all games and they intentionally buffed them by giving them the dismount option. At least they knew Cavs were good so they get a -10% spd, but fliers only get buffs.

^^props for writing that all out

If they have crappy defense, why don't you just use a combat art to one shot them?

It's because wyvern lord is strictly a superior class. Quick riposte is busted I do agree, but we kinda ignore skills you get from Master classes because that is so late game. You would only use it for at most 3 chapters. We assume optimal play and grinding exp to get Quick riposte isn't very optimal. Fist flair is garbage and +20 crit is decent, but canto and having +2 more move is much better(not to mention they get +10 avoid on top of that).

I do agree that Lorenz is underrated imo since he doesn't have a movement problem as much as other mages; however, he is still strictly worse than Lysithea. Let me break down the advantages listed. Smoother progression: Yeah it is smoother but her path to dark knight isn't that bad thou. She doesn't have to really worry about leveling up her reason spell rank due to her personal skill, so you can just set her goals to be riding and lances(C in lances is pretty easy despite being bad at it). As long as you start doing this early, by the time you get to master class, she will be ready to at least reach the minimum requirement. Defensive stats: Not an advantage you would want to have as a mage. They should never be in the front line and pretty much kill only on player phase. Additionally, his shaky spd growth could hinder his defense(spd is both an offensive and defensive stat helps you not get doubled) Lifetaker is a pretty niche skill. You can just use nosferato if you need her to recover health(not to mention she has the stats to kill with it too). Also use healers, that is what they are for. (Not to mention you kinda need Lysithea to defeat the death knight to get those seals). Additionally, you need to be able to kill the enemy to recover hp. He doesn't reliably one shot enemies since his spd and mag are all meh. Now I am going to list the advantages she has over Lorenz, which heavily out weighs the advantages he has. Spell list: Great reason and faith spells. She is literally the most reliable way to kill the death knight and for upcoming difficulties it is going to be super important since he moves. She also gets warp, which is an extremely valuable skill that she can get at B. Making her very versatile early to mid game. She can be an offensive nuke or a support unlike Lorenz who's best faith skill is recover. Growths: Statistically Lysithea has greater offense(60%mag and 50% spd vs 40%mag and 40% spd) and her growths are more specialized unlike Lorenz's average growths across the board. Yes Lorenz has better bulk, but mages should never be in the front line, they don't even have the move to go to the front line. If you are playing optimally, the extra bulk is not going to matter (maybe some cases) up until end game where you can promote to master class. Once you do reach that point, there's gonna be like 4 chapters left. Also Lorenz's growths are very shaky. He can easily get speed screwed and become pretty bad vs Lysithea who even if she gets speed screwed, she can usually one shot enemies. Here are two main and very important advantages she has over Lorenz. Like I said I also think Lorenz is underrated, but truth be told, he is strictly worse. The game right now is easy enough so you can use any unit you want so if you like Lorenz so much go ahead. Also this is kind of an unspoken rule, but we are not talking about NG+. You build doesn't seem reasonable to achieve in a regular play through.

Is it just me but I feel like Claude is better than M!Byleth? Not sure about female, but if wyvern lord is the best class for Byleth, then Claude should strictly be superior since he has a better legendary weapon? Idk maybe early game helps Byleth edge Claude out.

I mean how you train your Byleth will vary person to person so it seems more fair and make the whole rating less complicated. For example, say you want your Byleth to become a wyvern lord, then any magic users' availability is going to get worse.

Ig your correct since enemies aren't that hard to kill in hard. Idk maybe lunatic it might come in handy.

Sorry but gotta disagree with this one. She is easily worse than Hubert and Lorenz. Lorenz has his relic that helps fixes his bad movement early game and Hubert has better growths and can easily class change better. Punishing someone for being available for one route I feel like is unfair. I personally think you should rate a unit's availability based on the house they are from. Since Byleth's weapon rank and everything can vary so much and makes a lot of things complicated.