Super Potat

yeah thanks you filled me in on why Mycen could be useful maybe more so than Forsyth. It's still not so much clear cut as Mycen won't really save that many turns at all like Forsyth (they're both not the most amazing units with 1 being trash, and 1 for 1 chapter). Also with the Atlas stuff, nice information so thanks a bunch.

In the final chapter however he won't be able to 1 shot anything (correct me if I'm mistaken) even with Gravidus and you have people that would be able to (like Mathilda and any of the Falcon Knights with Gravidus) so why wouldn't you send those in instead as they can deal with them on enemy phase (they shouldn't die that easily by that point iirc) rather than Mycen who cannot 1 round, and with Duma he isn't that hard in general and any other unit will be able to do as good as him and since Duma is all you need to kill to beat the map it's better to use one of the bow knights that can reach him easier to damage him then warp Alm in for the kill. With everything else that seems to be right and never thought about the sending Atlas back down to avoid the enemy spawns but if I'm not mistaken once Atlas leaves after you head North you can simply recruit him again and head North and not have him leave (I remember this happening on my playthrough although I can't say for sure). The only other thing I'll mention is the "Atlas is also actually quite a big factor in an efficient run since in LTCs" as I'd say that rating units is more based upon efficient runs in general more so than LTCs because LTC tier lists are so flipped in comparison but I'm not sure if unit spawns are in LTCs or not (as going south would trigger lots more enemy squads to spawn from Greith's fort?), if not then it should work in non-LTC efficient runs too.

In terms of actually playing efficiently though atlas is pretty low down there maybe even at the bottom because first shrine if you don't go out of your way for him is in sluice gate (there is a shrine there right?) and he prolly won't reach tier 2 by lost woods. Archer does salvage him though as archers at that point are always good (and you have excess bows iirc in Celica's route), 4 range is pretty strong, which is prolly his saving grace.

I suppose this is more just a discussion of if average stats should be taken as the golden standard and RNG screwing should be taken into account or not. Because if you go by average stats there's no reason to use Mycen pretty much ever as all your other units are more deserving of the slots and even if you do choose to he won't contribute much as your other units can already do that far easier. In a 0% growths run for example Mycen would be amazing compared to normal play because bases are literally everything but how much do you want to take that into account really in terms of ranking units as it would be so minor. In the case that you happen to take both Mycen and Forsyth into the last chapter of course Mycen would perform better, even if you got Forsyth up to a Baron/lvl 7 same as him as he'd have more mobility but you probably won't deploy him over anyone else unless they did get RNG screwed, and if they did how much would he really contribute? Forsyth will always contribute doing at least something over the course of a playthrough as he's just there for so much longer it's almost impossible for him not to when his stats aren't exactly just dirt so he can damage something every playthough rather than Mycen which might every 10 playthroughs or so if you want to use him for his actual filler utility rather than just interest over how good he is. Basically what Forsyth contributes is not negligible, it is just a small amount, but what Mycen contributes is.

Forsyth is slow and unlike mages he isn't as good at dishing out damage as them, he also joins a bit late for his level and bases making him less useful than other units. It's mainly important to compare units to everyone else while trying to make more quantitative judgements rather than just those in their class, as armour knights in general are worse than every other class just due to their class which needs to be kept into account when judging them. Also compared to the other armour knights while he turns out the best eventually Lukas is better just due to joining earlier and being able to get more levels. Also grind is an important thing to take into consideration as while units aren't rated by LTC or speedruns, they are measured by their efficiency to clear the game faster/easier and how much they help with that, grinding of course adds turns onto the total game turns meaning you're less efficient, meaning that you'd want to avoid that typically. In grinding every unit becomes quite boring as it's pretty much just rating off of growths and removes much of the difficulty the game has removing much of the challenge and making it less interesting to rate units on, to play depending on the person it can be more fun or whatever but that's a different matter.

On my run of Echoes I didn't do any dungeon grinding until Act 4 on Alm's side and on Celica's side only did it for Atlas to make him fun to use and never encountered any exp problems from using Forsyth a little. For someone to have some level of usefulness it doesn't require them to be uber powerful or anything or having to contribute more than a smige, he doesn't need to promote by end of Act 1, I promoted him Act 3 myself by barely using him, I didn't slow down for him at all really and even dying to a witch is better than doing whatever Mycen does as he doesn't make anyone else get damaged and need healing or anything (as pretty much anyone will take damage from witches due to res being low all throughout the game), even if you used Mycen in terms of efficiency he won't gain you anything due to not being able to 1 round and being doubled by mages and as someone said earlier, have a high chance of crits against him making him more of a liability than an asset. Forsyth shares his 4 move with every mage in the game except lacks the range they do and I don't see them being held back as much even on any sort of ranking. In general I'd like to say however that you're right, Forsyth isn't a good unit at all, but since there's no opportunity cost unlike other games and having him get a random kill here or tank a witch means that he contributes more overall than what Mycen would, as I can't see how he'd contribute anything if at all during where he's available, he just seems like an awful unit due to this, and if you got Zeke and Titania then you'd miss any deployment slots for him at all, and idk why'd you miss those except for LTC. With the dungeon and maybe final chapter (assuming you do 10 units from each side), idk why'd you deploy him over the villagers, Silque, Titania, Mathilda, Clair or Python as they're so useful, or any of Celica's route unless they got incredibly RNG screwed but in terms of a units quality it'd be debatable if you'd include that since it's usually based upon averages.

when you get him the rest of your army is also moving at 4 speed with the exception of Gray, Clive, Alm, and Clair, and only 1 of those are have good enough combat to 1 round (being Alm or Gray with the thunder sword), you could be getting tier 2s on some of them after the siege but I don't see it before meaning he can keep up with your army at that point and contribute something rather than whatever Mycen has. Also vs witches Forsyth actually works quite well, he doesn't get 1 rounded like Lukas vs them allowing him to be left reliably at the back of your army to bait them. While this isn't much, again I feel it contributes more than Mycen ever will.

Exp isn't something that people struggle for like ever throughout the game, beyond promotion exps and for forsyth to contribute anything he doesn't need any levels at all, having an extra unit is better than having a none existent one and I gotta be honest with personal experience Mycen would be theoretically useless in the final chapter, due to warp existing and Alm being able to kill so much shit in the final chapter. Mycen can't be used for rescuing and maybe hitting 2 people once for half their HP in the final chapter. Witches do exist and Forsyth is pretty good at dispatching them, Forsyth has a marginal effect but he has almost 0 opportunity cost, and Mycen's effect is marginal even if at all, because I myself while I did grind towards the end to see everyone in their final class, I didn't use any of those that I grinded in the final chapter and struggled to find a slot for Mycen. While most of this is based off of personal experience I don't think that much of it would be different on any different playthroughs except if my Alm got stat blessed without me realizing so he was way better in the final chapter than for everyone else.

at the time you get him, Mycen will be better than Forsyth, pretty much no matter what unless you grinded Forsyth as he'll be stuck as knight otherwise by the time you get to the final shrine, even if you deploy him in the dungeon. But the amount he'll contribute in that final dungeon is gonna be pretty low, overall you can avoid every fight in the final dungeon (apart from Alm's fight but no one but Alm can fight there so no use counting) and be completely fine, it's not like doing that is impossible either, and unless you get jump attacked you're just gonna clear most of the dungeon units in your player phase at the start (if you hit them with your sword attack) and you can do this with your other units that aren't Mycen and it would be better to do so with due to them actually growing from the exp you get (RIP 10% in all stats but HP) and 1 rounding them with at least 5 of your units shouldn't be hard at this point. In terms of the final level even then his use would be minimal if at all if you do decide to deploy him as Alm and bows dominance there is high and you'd have at least 3 bows spare Alm and at least 1 teleport. Forsyth is definitely worse in the last chapters and literally anyone would be better than him, but he definitely contributes more before hand to be better than Mycen.

I really don't get why this is the case due to other characters, like Mycen being playable at all. Mycen joins at the end of the game, when there's a 10 character limit to bring him into the next chapter, even if you skip Zeke and Tatiana you still have 14 other characters (with Alm being forced) to bring into end game/the dungeon besides him as keeping characters alive in this game is easy as hell with the turnwheel. And since you can deploy Celica's army instead of some of Alms in the final chapter I don't see any reason to use him, personally in my run everyone else surpassed him/was more deserving of a deployment slot by the time you get him. And while Forsyth isn't exactly good (still towards the bottom of any tier list of course) he contributes significantly more just from being present in so many chapters for free rather than being unusable. And on the off chance you do choose to deploy him, what's the chances he contributes much, if at all, due to Alm's and the Killer Bow's dominance? Feel like in general this is because for pretty much all players he isn't present so they don't remember Mycen being useless but more so Forsyth because they saw him in every chapter

How would people feel about a more 'epic' style of fire emblem game being more grand in scale and having a lot more class trees and diversity in these class such a 3 tiers and perhaps 3 or more options when promoting. I feel like this game should have a longer story and lots of characters on a whole and should have lots of different 'stories' that it skips between to give most of these characters usage. Bigger maps and more stuff to do at each time to use 10s of these units at a time on a map. Would people like this or be against it? Are there any rom hacks like what a described (other TRPGs on a whole, haven't seen any like fire emblem myself (not counting tear ring saga))? What ideas would you like to see employed in this style of fe? Comments on my suggestions and on others below? Thanks to Jotari's class tree which gave me the idea to start this topic http://i.imgur.com/01CFaLo.png EDIT: I feel like I didn't make my point clear enough about size. By size I mean having over 100 characters. This might be an epic type of task to take on but they'res so many other games that manage to flesh out diverse amounts of characters and on tv/movies too so if they really put the money behind it it could work.

1st: Thracia 776 - Mechanics are rather solid and I like almost all of them and would like to see them in other games (apart from capture because that wouldn't work too well in others, at least how it's done here) but the story kind of pales in comparison to FE4 but is still rather solid 2nd: Radiant Dawn - Loved the 3 tier system maybe for just the fact it gave bigger numbers and the story expanded upon FE9's story greatly with only part 4's tower of heaven being a letdown and acting as kind of a lazy way to being it all together (unless I'm missing a message here?). Other than that liked many of the mechanics like ledges which worked well due to not being used too often 3rd: Genealogy of the Holy War - Loved the map design here and the use of large maps unlike the others in the series and my favorite plot wise due to having the best villain in the series who you could see two sides to accross the generations (Arvis) and I liked the whole story as a whole with the plot twist in chapter 5 being amazing 4th: Sacred Stones - Extremely easy but can be turned up with hacks and the inclusion of branching trees gives more troop diversity. The story is also my second favorite in the series (beat by FE4) having a great villain and plot in general 5th: Path of Radiance - This like FE8 is extremely easy but has many nice mechanics like bexp that can definetly help leveling the healers in the game who were a massive pain before hand and the story is my third favorite in the series (beaten by the two above) with quite a nice story of Ike's development throughout the game with the Black Knight seemingly looming over him the whole time 6th: Binding Blade - Mechanics didn't have too much going for it after removing a lot from Thracia and the story was a bit lackluster at times in depth (did they forget about Eliwood half way though?!?!) 7th: Blazing Sword - I'm on board of the "story is bad" train for this game and the gameplay wasn't really exceptional because it kind of had the same mechanics from FE6 8th: Awakening - Difficulty spikes were painful and map design was quite boring with abuse of the system almost needed to win (skills) and without was too hard (actually having a balanced party) 9th: Shadow Dragon - Hate having to sacrifice characters all the time and didn't really like the gameplay due to removal of features in prior games (e.g. rescuing) Have yet to play the rest of the Marth games and FE2 and will probably not come around to them but might play FE14 down the line

Leaf is good in manster often seen as the hardest part of the game due to him being able to have training before hand. For the duaration of manster only Brighton really comes close in usefulness due to his good bases(/good starting level)

Just putting it out here in the Hector vs Roy contest that you should stop comparing growth rates between the two characters too much. In FE6 the growth rates are lower if only slightly on average and growth rates aren't really comparable throughout any of the games (cross-referencing games at least e.g. like now comparing Roy (FE6) to Hector (FE7)) so Roy having 5% more speed growth than Hector for example is a lot more than it says on the cover.

Want to figure out if you are playing 'the right path' or 'the bad path'? Well just pay another £19.99 and you can see 'the other side of the story' Sorry for that. But seriously if they make another 'split path' game like the recent 3-part wonder I might as well give up in the series, or my wallet.