aku chi

1. Which main issue? Her crappy Spd, her mediocre Atk, or her mediocre starting durability? A Gregor support helps Nowi a ton, but it doesn't solve all her problems. His +Spd prevents her from being doubled and it lets her double slower units, but Nowi cannot reliably double faster units (Heroes, Tricksters, Assassins, Swordmasters, Falcon Knights, Dark Fliers, Valkyries - borderline on Berserkers, Paladins, and Griffin Riders). Gregor's +Def helps Nowi survive enemy phase during her training period and makes her close to invulnerable to physical attacks once she's in her groove. Gregor doesn't directly help Nowi's offense, but he can occasionally chip in to finish off enemies Nowi doesn't quite 2HKO. The Armorslayer gives Nowi some additional help against the tough-to-2HKO Generals and Great Knights. 2. No opinion. Stahl's in about the right position, IMO. 3. Baffling. Concerning permanent support partners, Lon'qu comes up short. Cherche is his best option, but she joins late. Sully doesn't need much Spd to double unless she goes Wyvern Rider. Even so, she prefers Avatar, Chrom, Stahl, Gregor, or Gaius. Wyvern Rider Panne doesn't need that much Spd to double, and would prefer a support with Avatar, Gregor, Gaius, or Stahl. Nowi prefers Gregor or Gaius. There are more males that prefer a Pegasus Knight support (which, BTW, gives a better bonus than Myrmidon: Res > Lck). Frederick, Stahl, Vaike, and Kellam would all love a Pegasus Knight support and give Str and Def back. Cavalier Chrom works well with Sumia. Henry would love to support Dark Flier Sumia. Ricken, Donnel, and Gregor also need Spd but don't give much back to Cordelia. And as primary units, the Pegasus Knights are clearly better. +2 mov, flight (has its drawbacks, but is a net positive), and 1-2 range. Lon'qu needs to drop. 4. Maybe Gregor should move down, instead? I haven't tried to use Gregor as a primary unit but it seems a challenge. 6. Sage Anna isn't great, because she has to work her way out of E tomes. Anna is an underwhelming combat unit in my experience, but she has a lot of utility.

I actually haven't trained Vaike either, so this is theory-crafting, but Hero Vaike will have Sol, enough Spd to double, enough Atk to 2HKO (potentially with 1-2 range weapons) and solid physical durability. He just needs to stay away from magic users (especially fast magic users like Valkyries).

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Cherche can be useful as a solid filler with no effort. She can ORKO Generals with a Hammer throughout the Valm arc (with 7-8 mov and flight). I'd argue that this provides more utility than Vaike's early-game pair-up boosts. And as you note, it's harder to seriously train Vaike than it is Cherche. Hero Vaike might have superior potential, though. I find that Cherche has Spd issues even with a +Spd support. Edit: Nowi has been overhyped, but she is a solid tank. I think she could move up to right below Tharja. Gregor is difficult to use as anything but a pair-up bot - but he's a darn good pair-up bot! I think he's fine where he is (between Gaius and Vaike).

11 chapters is Prologue, C1-7, P1-3 Nobody can best Frederick's mov. Sumia and Cordelia are the only units with any potential mobility advantage. Nobody can best Frederick's Atk. 27 Atk at base with Silver Lance. Full weapon triangle control. 1-2 range access. High weapon ranks. Avatar might have better 1-2 range Atk at the tail end of these chapters. Nobody can best Frederick's durability (with the possible exception of +Def Avatar at the tail end of these chapters). Frederick can double almost any unit with a +Spd pair-up - of which there are several: Chrom, Sumia, Lon'qu, Gaius, Panne, and Cordelia.

The Frederick, Edward comparison is absurd. Edward is the best of 3 units for one short chapter. Frederick is the best of 10-15 units for at least 10 chapters. Edit: Frederick does have competition from Avatar in the latter half of those 10 chapters.

FYI: Henry was one of my most valuable units in my brisk, no-grind Lunatic playthrough. He had a slow start (literally and figuratively), but he dominated most of the lategame chapters. A Dark Flier Sumia pair-up works wonders for him. And, of course, Nosferatu is too darn good. I think a Lunatic tier list is inevitable. The chief problem, in my mind, is not that most units have no value, but that the early chapters are so inflexible. I anticipate a bunch of uninteresting debate on the best way to distribute exp in these early chapters (along with inevitable quarrels regarding how much reliability matters). Where is Seven Deadly Sins? Sumia & Cordelia > Lon'qu seems unanimous, and Vaike > Miriel seems to have a lot of support.

It's not difficult to train Miriel with an Avatar support. Whenever enemy phase isn't needed (generally on the last couple turns of a map), Miriel can grab the player phase kill. With +Mag and +Spd from the Avatar, Miriel can ORKO most anything. This doesn't hurt Avatar much, because Avatar is likely to level cap by C8 anyway. I did this on my first playthrough, BTW. Foolishly, I promoted Miriel to Dark Knight. She had an arc of usefulness due to the +7 Def, but the swords were worthless and she just wasn't durable enough lategame. I should have gone Dark Mage -> Sorcerer.

Nosferatu is transformative for a unit like Miriel (high Mag and Spd, low Def and Res). Without Nosferatu, Miriel has a terrible enemy phase. With it, she has a great enemy phase. Sorecerer Miriel has the offense to ORKO most units with Nosferatu (Focus, Anathema, and Vengeance let her ORKO tougher foes). Nosferatu lets her take on an infinite number of enemies (excluding Counter Warriors, Longbow Snipers, Mire Sorcerers, and enemies with Killer weapons). That said, Miriel does have early-game troubles. The only units who want her pair-up bonuses are Avatar, Lissa, and Maribelle. But Miriel can't grow with a Lissa or Maribelle pair-up. Avatar has a lot of great pair-up options, but one shouldn't discount Miriel. Miriel's Mag boost gives Avatar the Atk he needs to 2HKO all enemies at 1-2 range. With or without an Avatar pair-up it's tough sledding getting Miriel to gain levels. 1-2 range makes it easy for her to get in on the action, but she doubles little without a Spd pair-up and she has poor durability no matter what. Come mid-game, Miriel has viable support partners in Libra and Henry. Vaike has an easier time getting experience early on, but he's still in a tough spot. None of his supports boost Spd and Def (except Sully, who doesn't boost Spd enough to get Vaike doubling). If he gets the +Spd support he needs to double, then he has to deal with that 5 Def and 0 Res at base. This limits his enemy phase for quite a while. But while Vaike's early-game is a little better than Miriel's, his mid-game is worse. While Miriel can re-class to Dark Mage and Nos-tank by C14, Vaike needs to get to level 5 Hero before his enemy phase becomes close to as good. It's a tough call between these two. Maybe Vaike ought to get the nod, because this game throws +Spd supports at him - making him easier to train. Edit: On the topic of Second Seals before C16. Chapter 8: Renown Chapter 8: Village Chapter 12: Enemy Drop Paralogue 12: Chest Chapter 15: Village Paralogue 5: Enemy Drop Assuming we recruit Morgan, there are 5-6 Second Seals available before C16. If Lissa was married, we're likely to recruit Owain in Paralogue 5 before C16. The first two Second Seals are the most valuable, and I wouldn't suggest that we use them on Miriel. The C12 and P12 Second Seals are moderately valuable, and I would suggest using one of these to re-class Miriel to Dark Mage. The C15 and P5 Second Seals are very nearly worth 2500G, because purchaseable Second Seals are right around the corner.

I disagree. C10 is a boss-kill chapter, so +2 mov is definitely helpful. One also needs >5 mov to chase down the Thieves with their loot. Flight helps the Pegasus Knights moderate their enemy phase exposure by using the bones terrain on the map. While there are more axe enemies than sword enemies, 25-35% of the enemies have 1-2 range, so Lon'qu doesn't even have a clear weapon advantage here.

I fully support Sumia & Cordelia > Lon'qu. The three have very similar join time and stats. All three are useful for their +Spd pair-up. Sumia provides +Spd earliest but has a limited support pool (but it includes the important Frederick and Chrom - and later Henry). Lon'qu provides +Spd early, but he doesn't support with many units that need the Spd. Sully quickly out-grows her Spd needs and has better options in Chrom and Stahl. Miriel can also shed her Spd needs fast, has a better option in MU, and doesn't help Lon'qu at all. Vaike is a decent partner. But it isn't until Cherche joins that Lon'qu has an especially good support partner. Cordelia joins last, but has the best support pool: Stahl and Frederick being most notable. Sumia and Cordelia also provide a better secondary boost (Res > Luck). But the big difference between Lon'qu and Sumia & Cordelia is that the Pegasus Knights have +2 mov, flight, and 1-2 range. And while flight carries its downsides, it's better overall and the +2 mov and 1-2 range are unmitigated advantages. Can someone make the case for Lon'qu > Sumia or Cordelia? Edit: On Sumia vs. Cordelia, it takes a while for Cordelia to develop a notable Atk advantage. They're going to have nearly identical Str when Cordelia joins, Sumia has had time to build up a Frederick support, and Sumia is likely to be closer to wielding Frederick's Silver Lance. I think Sumia has the superior offense until Cordelia develops an A support. Sumia is also viable as a Dark Flier, if her magic grows comparitively better than her Str. I'm still undecided on Sumia vs. Cordelia...

Haar is a great unit in PoR, he just joins late. IMO, the following units benefit the most from (realistic) transfers: Jill Boyd Nephenee Marcia Ike Oscar Titania Ulki Soren Ilyana Roughly in that order. Happily, most of those units are great in PoR.

Yes, weapon exp is granted for each attack, not each round. No idea. Sorry.

Very impressive! You're doing some really creative stuff, like Janaff shoving and cantoing with the Knight Ring to fill a chokepoint. I don't think I would have ever considered that!

Endgame dump! Chrom - Paladin Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 53 30 3 27 25 23 24 15 10 61 34 4 33 28 28 27 17 Avatar (+HP -Lck) - Sorcerer Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 69 20 22 21 21 15 19 20 13 80 25 29 24 26 21 24 25 (Capped HP at level 11) Libra - War Monk Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 40 15 16 13 14 11 12 17 13 52 23 21 19 19 19 16 23 Anna - Trickster Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 37 13 18 23 22 27 9 11 10 42 17 21 27 26 35 11 15 Henry - Sorcerer Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 59 18 35 35 32 22 29 21 14 71 24 40 40 40 24 35 27 (Capped Skl at level 8 and Spd at level 13) Lucina (Avatar (+HP -Lck)) - Paladin Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 66 31 11 29 29 26 25 17 16 80 39 14 37 38 31 32 23 (Capped HP at level 16) Morgan (Chrom x Avatar (+HP -Lck)) - Hero Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 64 29 14 33 31 26 23 22 16 77 37 20 41 43 32 32 29 Tiki - Manakete Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 20 49 23 14 20 22 24 20 17 36 69 33 23 28 31 35 28 27 (Actually 30/7) Cynthia (Henry) - Dark Flier Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 52 25 25 32 33 25 21 21 10 60 27 29 35 41 32 24 24 Tharja - Sorcerer Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 52 10 31 23 33 18 30 17 7 57 10 34 25 37 20 34 19 Olivia - Dancer Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 18 3 1 8 9 5 3 2 12 27 7 1 18 15 15 4 4 Cordelia - Falcon Knight Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 45 21 6 24 25 15 16 16 18 60 30 11 35 35 24 26 22 Cherche - Wyvern Rider Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 12 33 16 2 14 13 10 17 2 19 40 22 3 19 16 15 24 3

Sumia - Dark Flier Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 37 18 14 24 26 20 10 18 20 55 29 18 39 42 30 17 26

Would that all posters were as courteous as you! I wish that the Serenes Forest community was more receptive to alternative tiering philosophies. I think it healthy to challenge one's assumptions every now and again. A new topic is absolutely the place to make such suggestions. Your criticisms of a LTC tier list are well-argued. A LTC tier list necessarily limits the scope of the discussion to certain strategies. As you explain is point (1), this is displeasing in an aesthetic sense. It is also less interesting for most people, as you note in point (2). I would clarify that the population that plays the game is not the relevant population, but the population that debates how valuable certain units are. That latter population embody the people who might contribute to a unit tier list. I think point (3) is the weakest of your criticisms. A goal of any FE game is to complete it. Units need to do certain things to complete the game (defeat enemies, reach certain locations, etc...). From those premises, we can evaluate how valuable each unit is towards completing the game. But there are innumerable ways to complete the game, so this is a very fuzzy metric. One way (perhaps not the best way) to solidify the metrics on which to judge unit value is to introduce a third premise: completely the game more efficiently (swiftly, reliably, and with less resource expenditure) is better. This is a defensible metric for a tier list, I think. A LTC tier list solidifies the efficiency metric further by: (a) simplifying swiftness with the number of turns it takes to complete a chapter and (b) placing little or no value on reliability and resource expenditure. However, I believe that the FE:PoR tier list is still an efficiency tier list. There is a conflict between more concrete metrics and interesting discussion. Over time, we have trended towards more solidification of the tiering metrics, but it is not yet a LTC tier list. I think an efficiency tier list avoids some, but not all, of your criticisms. The purpose of a tier list, in large part, is to promote interesting discussion. A tier list where only one or two strategies per chapter is considered does not promote interesting discussion. Also, it's been explained many times that "turns saved" is a non-sensical metric for judging a unit's worth in an efficient playthrough. The ridiculousness of "turns saved" is laid bare in scenarios like the 6-turn C9 strategy where at least 7 units are essential to the strategy. Do they all save a turn? Only if the other 6 units are being used. Is their contribution equivalent? The "turns saved" metric would indicate that it is. That is a ridiculous conclusion, though, because all Rhys, Mia, and Boyd do is shove Ike a couple squares while Titania clears over half the map of enemies and transports Ike 9 squares to the seize square. Mia should get some credit for her potential contributions in C9, but not in the form of some mythical "turn saved" by shoving in accordance with one extremely restrictive strategy. Edit: I didn't realize how old this topic was until after I posted. Whoops.

Tharja - Sorcerer Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 39 8 20 16 19 9 19 14 20 52 10 31 23 33 18 30 17 Henry - Sorcerer Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 44 9 23 23 19 14 20 15 20 59 18 35 35 32 22 29 21 Stat boosters were used, but they're captured in both the before and after.

Lucina (Avatar (+HP -Lck)) - Cavalier Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 44 19 5 18 17 15 16 7 17 59 28 10 27 27 26 22 11 I believe Lucina only capped Str, Skl, and Spd at level 17.

Henry - Dark Mage Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 12 31 7 15 16 10 11 14 6 20 39 8 20 21 16 14 17 10

I expect you'll want 1-2 Sorcerers for the lategame rout maps. Avatar and/or Morgan are good candidates.

Might it be better to pair Lon'qu with Vaike instead of Kellam (before Cherche arrives)? Kellam gives a little more Def at the start, but Vaike can actually support with Lon'qu, and so should be more helpful later on. If you can get a support rank per 2 chapters, that's C by C6, B by Paralogue 3, and A by C9. At which point, Vaike will be giving at least +7 Str and +4 Def and dual striking frequently (especially useful when Lon'qu gets Vantage).

Seconded. Whenever Stahl is not the lead unit in his pair, equip the Bronze Lance. Weapon exp will build up every time he comes in with a dual strike. Or, if you get a Log, you can forge it to Iron Lance strength for the cheap.

Chrom - Cavalier Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 28 13 1 13 13 13 12 4 19 46 27 2 25 23 23 21 9 Chrom capped Str at level 16. Avatar (+HP, -Lck) - Grandmaster Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 51 18 15 16 17 8 14 14 15 66 25 22 24 24 15 19 18 Frederick - Great Knight Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 28 13 2 12 10 6 14 3 18 46 26 3 23 21 15 25 5

Tharja - Dark Mage Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 10 26 4 12 5 13 3 10 7 18 34 7 15 10 18 5 14 9

I got Lucina (Avatar) in my Lunatic playthrough. Here's her base stats, for reference: Lucina (level 10 Lord) - 42 HP, 18 Str, 6 Mag, 19 Skl, 19 Spd, 15 Lck, 15 Def, 8 Res Lucina (level 10/1 Cavalier) - 44 HP, 19 Str, 5 Mag, 18 Skl, 17 Spd, 15 Lck, 16 Def, 7 Res I had a 11/15 Cavalier Chrom and a 20/12 Grandmaster Avatar after C13, so I imagine my Lucina is a little better than might be expected in this tier list. My play experience with Lucina (Avatar) on Lunatic might not be relevant, but at least these stats will be grounds for theory-crafting.