aku chi

Considering that the DB chapters are still the hardest in the game, I'd say it was for the better that Nintendo buffed Edward, Leonardo, Nolan, Resolve, and Wrath. I'm less fond of the auto-promotion and forge changes, because they probably benefit the Greil Mercenaries the most.

You should be comforted, if anything. Rescue is probably most useful in C26, C27, and C28. I doubt you could cut a turn using Rescue in C23 or C24 (though it might make them more reliable). I have no idea how you're going to tackle C25, but Rescue doesn't seem super-useful. Even with Elincia's mediocre 6-range Rescue, it might be worth a Hammerne use so you can use it a couple times in Endgame to get Ena and your royal to Ashnard. Do you have any other plans for the Hammerne?

Before you use your Energy Drops and Speedwings, make sure Ena can actually kill Ashnard... Axes definitely deal bonus damage against doors. I thought is was a flat +20, but it could be a multiplier.

Don't worry about Door Keys, you should be able to break the C27 doors without too much trouble. Haar can probably take out a door by himself, and you'll have two solid siege tome users in Calill and Bastian to finish the doors, if needed.

Have you tried using a Laguz Stone to tranform Reyson? Have your 4 best mounted units (Tanith, Titania, Kieran, and Jill?) do the following each turn after the first: Advance with all four mounted units, killing enemies along the way. End in a diamond arrangement that Reyson can vigor. Vigor all four with Reyson. Have two mounted units advance as far as possible and kill enemies. Have the other two rescue/take/drop Reyson as far as possible whilst forming a wall. Recruiting Shinon is an added complication, to be sure. You'll need to somehow ferry Rolf and Ike to Shinon before Shinon can get a shot at Reyson. But with transformed Reyson, I still suspect that a 6-turn clear is possible.

Epic last turn!

Some units. Other units, like Titania and Seth, would be made comparitively worse. Here's another FE9 example, lower down the tier list. Mist is made much better by the existence of Bexp (it takes a loooong time for her to promote without it). Lethe is made comparitively worse by the existence of Bexp (Bexp allows the Cavaliers to match her combat earlier). Or even further. Elincia is made much better by the existence of Bexp (it greatly increases her Rescue range). Janaff is made comparatively worse (it's much easier for Marcia and Jill to outclass him with Bexp). Need I go on? Your general principle does not hold.

That is not an accurate generalization. Consider if FE9 had no Bexp. With Bexp, Marcia and Titania are both great units. Without Bexp, Titania is comparatively better (it takes much longer before you can get a unit to replicate Titania's contributions) and Marcia is comparitively worse (she can't make her super-flier contributions in C12 and C15 at the very least).

I'm not attempting anything duplicitous. Your intuition should confirm that (non-perishable) goods are more valuable (or, at least, no less valuable) when received earlier. Going through your simple example and determining opportunity costs was not trivial; I made a couple mistakes myself before correcting them. This rather highlights your point that the full and faithful way to compare Mia and Zihark (each receive their optimal resource bundle and each pay the opportunity cost associated with it) is error prone and more work than is needed. So let's discuss some alternatives that can demonstrate Mia > Zihark that are just as accurate. One approach is the one I've already mentioned that I'm quite fond of. If Mia is better when given Zihark's optimal resource bundle than Zihark is when given Zihark's optimal resource bundle, then Mia is more valuable than Zihark. This approach can be tweaked to make agreed-upon divergances from Zihark's optimal resource bundle for Mia. For instance, if we can suppose that 300 Bexp in C9 is worth no more than 400 Bexp in C12, we might suppose that Mia gets the former instead of the latter. I also like the approach you brought up: that if it can be shown/agreed that the cost of giving Mia X Bexp in C9 is no greater than the benefit she receives from it in chapters 9-11 alone, we can assume she receives the Bexp, ignore the costs of it and any contributions Mia makes before C12. Then, we compare Mia (+X Bexp and assumed Cexp) and Zihark's contributions from C12 on. It might not be possible to find such an amount X, so we can add another value Y, such that: The opportunity cost of giving Mia X Bexp in C9 is no greater than the benefit in chapters 9-11 that Mia receives from X Bexp plus the opportunity cost of giving Zihark Y Bexp in C12. Then, we assume that Mia gets X Bexp in C9, Zihark gets Y Bexp in C12 - and compare their contributions in C12 and beyond. These comparison approaches are no less accurate than a full and faithful anaylsis, but it may be easier to reach a consensus conclusion than quibbling about different opportunity costs (which I certainly don't enjoy; I'd rather discuss how different units contribute to an efficient playthrough).

If you're uninterested in reading the rest of the (very straight-forward) arguments, appeal to your intuition: is Bexp earned in C28 as valuable as Bexp earned in C1? Would you be indifferent between receiving all of the game's Bexp after completing chapter 28 and receiving it all before chapter 8? Assumptions: There are only two (unconditional) sources of Bexp: 300 Bexp awarded after C9 and 300 Bexp awarded after C12. Jill getting 300 Bexp in C13 is more valuable than Marcia getting 300 Bexp in C10 is more valuable than Marcia getting 300 Bexp in C13 is more valuable than any other allocation of 300 Bexp, including giving Marcia or Jill both sets of 300 Bexp. There are two ways to evaluate the opportunity costs of Boyd's two Bexp dumps. The first approach is to consider them in isolation and assume that the other Bexp goes to its optimal recipient. The second approach is to assume that Boyd will receive both sets of Bexp. First approach - in isolation: Opportunity cost for giving Boyd 300 Bexp in C10: We otherwise assume optimal allocation, so Jill will receive the C12 Bexp and giving the 300 Bexp in C10 to Marcia is the opportunity cost. Opportunity cost for giving Boyd 300 Bexp in C13: We otherwise assume optimal allocation. As per our assumption, Jill receiving 300 Bexp in C13 is the most valuable assignment of 300 Bexp, so we assume that we reserved the C9 Bexp for this purpose. It is not possible to give Marcia the C12 Bexp in C10, so the opportunity cost is equal to giving the 300 Bexp in C13 to Marcia. Second approach - in conjunction: Opportunity cost for giving Boyd 300 Bexp in C10: Boyd is assumed to receive the C12 Bexp. As per our assumption, Jill receiving 300 Bexp in C13 is the most valuable assignment of 300 Bexp, so reserving the C9 Bexp for this purpose is the opportunity cost. Opportunity cost for giving Boyd 300 Bexp in C13: Boyd is assumed to already have received the C9 Bexp. Jill receiving 300 Bexp in C13 is the opportunity cost. In all cases, the opportunity cost for the C9 Bexp is at least as great as the opportunity cost for the C12 Bexp.

In this tier list: how valuable it is to completing the game efficiently. Imagine two efficient playthroughs. Suppose that in the first playthrough, we have access to some chunk of Bexp, but in the second playthrough we do not have access to that same chunk. The value of that Bexp chunk is however much the first playthrough is more efficient than the second. Opportunity cost is a related concept. While value as defined previously results from giving the Bexp chunk to the most optimal recipient(s), opportunity cost is a way to evaluate the value that we lose by giving the Bexp to certain recipients. The opportunity cost is the value we would have received had the Bexp chunk gone to its next best alternative(s). I was insufficiently precise: the value of 300 C7 Bexp is at least as great as the value of 300 C11 Bexp. In almost all cases, the value will be greater. I believe you have erred here. I will try to demostrate this using your example. Suppose that the 300 C12 Bexp did not exist. The only (relevant) Bexp we have is the 300 we have in C10. If we are playing efficiently, we will use this Bexp in the way that helps us complete the game most efficiently (it's optimal use). This might be to give it immediately to Marcia. It might be to give it to Jill in C13. Assuming those are the two best options, the second best option is the opportunity cost of that 300 Bexp. Now let's add back in the 300 C12 Bexp. Suppose, as you have, that the optimal way to distribute Bexp is to give 300 to Marcia in C10 and give 300 to Jill in C12. Let's consider the opportunity cost of those distributions. When considering the opportunity cost for giving Marcia 300 Bexp in C10, we cannot ignore the fact that we will receive another 300 Bexp in C12. Whether or not Marcia gets the C9 Bexp, that 300 C12 Bexp will exist. As per our assumption, the best use of the C12 Bexp is to give it to Jill. The opportunity cost of the C9 Bexp then, is giving 300 more Bexp to Jill, or giving it to some other unit. Likewise, when giving Jill the 300 Bexp from C12, we've already given Marcia 300 Bexp. The opportunity cost of the C12 Bexp is giving 300 more Bexp to Marcia, or giving it to some other unit. Under no circumstance can the opportunity cost of C12 Bexp be higher than the opportunity cost of C9 Bexp. It's the marginal costs that matter when considering the opportunity cost of Bexp. I've made this mistake myself, in the past.

We seem to be doing a very bad job communicating with one another. Let's try to identify our initial point of diagreement. Do you agree or disagree with the following: 300 Bexp earned completing chapter 7 is more valuable than 300 Bexp earned completing chapter 11.

Have you stopped beating your wife? If we're comparing the opportunity cost of Mia (or anyone) getting 350 Bexp in C8 and Zihark (or anyone) getting 350 Bexp in C12, the former cannot be less than the latter. Mia's Bexp must come from Chapters 1-7. Zihark's can come from chapters 1-7 or it can come from chapters 8, 9, 10, or 11. Bexp from these later chapters is strictly less valable than Bexp from chapters 1-7 because C1-7 Bexp can be used in all of the ways C11 Bexp can be used - and more. Concerning the opportunity cost of 350 Bexp in C8, I don't know what it precisely is. It might be giving more to Boyd or Oscar, it might be saving it to give to Marcia. It might even be giving it to Jill. Whatever the case may be, the opportunity cost of 350 Bexp in C12 must be lower, because we now have more total Bexp to give to their most valuable recipients. We've already given the Bexp to, for instance, Boyd or Oscar or Marcia, or saved it for Jill. So the next best use might be giving it to Kieran or giving more to Marcia/Jill, or saving it for Astrid/Makalov. I agree. But if we give Zihark 350 Bexp in C12, it can be from the less valuable C11 and/or C10 Bexp cache. Capiche? Both units getting one or the other's optimal resource bundle is a fine approach when comparing units with similar availability and similar (enough) optimal resource bundles. It is a poor approach when comparing units with very different availability and/or very different optimal resource bundles. (I would not recommend it in a Mia vs. Geoffrey comparison. I would in a Mia vs. Zihark comparison.) No matter the comparison approach, Mia must be penalized for the resources she receives in excess of Geoffrey. Likewise with Zihark, if you so choose to compare them with different resource bundles. You contradict yourself: "The op. cost is the SAME. Whatever you do with that 350 bexp in chapter 8, whether you give it to Mia or save it for Zihark, the best alternative is whatever the best alternative is. It doesn't change." But, as I explained above, an amount of Bexp given later is necessarily less valuable than the same amount given earlier. All else being equal, Bexp used earlier is more valuable than Bexp used later. Don't you see: that also increases the opportunity cost of using Bexp earlier! C1-7 Bexp can make Boyd or Oscar more valuable in chapters 8-11 (and more). C11 Bexp cannot. C1-7 Bexp can be used in all of the ways C11 Bexp can be used, but the reverse is not true. Therefore, C1-7 Bexp is more valuable than C11 Bexp - it has a higher opportunity cost. If Mia takes 350 of the former and Zihark takes 350 of the latter, we pay a higher opportunity cost in the former scenario. (But, I repeat myself.) But all else is not equal when we consider the value of Bexp when used. The recipient of the Bexp determines the value of the investment. Would you agree that it is more valuable to give Rolf X Bexp in C9 instead of saving that X Bexp to give to Marcia in C10? Of course not - that would be absurd. But that conclusion would be warranted from your naive application of PV/FV. If I'm understanding your application correctly, Bexp given earlier provides a greater investment than Bexp given later by virtue of it being given earlier. What a unit can actually do with the Bexp is not considered in your analysis.

Tauroneo can wreck the Generals, get into Resolve range, and ORKO Ena with the Laguz Lance. I think you can clear this in 2 turns. Tanith and Calill (Meteor) kill Shiharam and Janaff (or Jill) arrives. All on turn 2. Getting Tanith and Janaff/Jill to survive the Wyvern Riders on turn 1 enemy phase will be a challenge, perhaps. A 1-turn clear will be tough here. If some subset of {Stefan, Muarim, Lethe, Titania, Kieran, and Jill} can clear a path to Schaeffer, Tanith and Calill (Meteor/Bolting) might just be able to finish the job. Edit: Very impressive C14. I didn't know you could recruit Makalov on turn 2.

You're assuming your conclusion. Mia gets Bexp and Zihark doesn't because Mia is better. Therefore, Mia is better than Zihark. If you're so confident that Mia is more valuable than Zihark, compare them when they both receive the same resources. (See this post and surrounding conversation for evidence of the rigor of this approach.) It's only "all square" if Mia's contributions in chapters 7-11 are exactly offset by the resoures she received in those chapters. In the case of Mia receiving all of our pre-C9 Bexp in order to make possible a silly C9 LTC clear, this is obviously not the case. That massive Bexp dump is much more valuable than Mia's potential contributions in chapters 7-11 (especially since Boyd can take the same Bexp and be almost strictly more valuable). In the case of your modest 350 Bexp bump in C8, it is debatable whether that is offset by Mia's potential contributions. Of course there is, I explained it in the linked post above. It enables us to engage in a rigorous comparison - even if it's unrealistic. You have this exactly backwards. The opportunity cost of giving Mia Bexp in C8 includes saving the Bexp for later use (on Marcia and/or Jill, for instance). The opportunities for alloting pre-C8 Bexp is a superset of the opportunities for alloting C11 Bexp. Therefore, the opportunity cost of pre-C8 Bexp cannot be lower than the opportunity cost of C11 Bexp. I'm glad you brought up the economic concept of present value/future value, but I'm baffled how you think it aids your claim that Bexp given to Mia in C8 is less costly than Bexp given to Zihark in C12. C7 Bexp has a higher value than C11 Bexp because it can be used for the exact same purposes of C11 Bexp - and more! That means that the opportunity cost of giving Mia 350 Bexp in C8 is greater than the opporunity cost of giving Zihark 350 Bexp in C12. Instead of considering costs, you inverted the analysis to try to prove that Mia must receive greater benefits from pre-C8 Bexp than Zihark, because she has more time to make use of the investment. This is very likely true, but would be revealed more intuitively in a Mia vs. Zihark comparison where each unit received Mia's optimal resource bundle. Contributions to completing the game are seen. Costs are not seen. We must do our diligence to ensure that we are properly accounting for resource costs. Mia can make contributions before Zihark joins, and those should absolutely be factored into a comparison between the two units, but it is absurd to claim that Mia can take Bexp before Zihark joins without paying an opportunity cost. I agree that this particular potential contribution of Mia's is very silly. Mia shoves somebody twice en route to an efficient clear. That isn't worth a whole lot. It also reveals the absurdity of the "turns saved" metric. Who is "saving" this vaunted turn in C9? Mia? Well, Rhys and Boyd are just as important in their ability to shove Ike. Ike himself is pretty important for recruiting Marcia and having some movement of his own. Oscar is pretty darn important - he carries Ike part of the way. So does Marcia. Or how about Titania, who carries Ike furthest and clears >50% of the enemies in the map to boot. I guess they all share credit for this vaunted saved turn. But their contributions aren't all equal, of course. Titania is doing most of the work to clear the chapter. Rhys, Boyd, and Mia are just shoving a couple times. I also want to mention that this particular contribution of Mia's is irrelevant if we choose not to recruit Marcia.

Generic enemies in this game have 0-5 luck. Swordmaster Mia often has 20-25% crit with generic weapons. With a Killer Edge or the Vague Katti, her crit is over 50%. Swordmaster Mia crit-killing enemies with Vantage is not a rarity. Vantage pairs nicely with Guard (low demand), Adept, and Wrath (and Resolve, but Mia is not getting Resolve). I don't put much stock in supports, but Zihark isn't very frail in this game. He has 34.5 HP and 12 Def at 20/1. Muarim has 45 HP and 14 Def with the Demi Band. There is a difference, but it isn't huge. It takes close to all of your pre-C9 Bexp to promote Mia in C9. All to shave one turn off of a chapter under certain conditions. That is what has been discussed. Opportunity cost must be taken into account when Mia receives resources, so whether or not Mia supposedly gets a giant Bexp dump before C9 is irrelevant to her ranking. Any Bexp Mia takes before Zihark is recruited has a lower cost when given to Zihark, so any comparison where Mia gets more Bexp than Zihark (and Zihark is assumed no other resource advantage) is silly. As for my opinion: Mia and Zihark are so similar that I believe they should be adjacent but I don't much care who is ranked higher. Aiene and I have (relatively) recently discovered a couple significant contributions that Mia can make that Zihark cannot, so I might lean slightly towards Mia > Zihark at this point.

Wow, I never realized that there was ground near Seeker. Nice job getting a 5-turn clear without a trained Marcia!

Except Edward can double enemies from the get-go, isn't locked to 2-range, and has great Str and Spd growths. Edward can actually grow into a good unit (though it generally takes more time and resources than it's worth). Leonardo cannot. Also, experience given to Edward is generally a better investment than experience given to Micaiah. Micaiah 2HKOs everything without resources and takes tons of resources and a little luck to either double or survive more than two hits.

LOL exaggeration.

Couldn't a trained Boyd replicate Sonic Sword Ike's performance in C25? Basically, Boyd would do what your Ike did and Ike would do what your Mia did on the chapter.

The Black Knight starts on a Cover tile.

Seeker equips the Demi Band, so Marcia only needs 17 Str and 20 Spd to ORKO Seeker with an Iron Lance forge. It is necessary to ORKO Seeker to 2-turn C12. It looks like Marcia needs to be promoted to get the 20 Spd needed to double Seeker. Alternatively, 14 Str and a glitched Slim Lance forge will enable Marcia to crit-kill. Marcia will need to be very close to promotion to reach 14 Str, though. And unpromoted, her durability will be a problem (the Laguz Guard is unavailable in C12). I mean: to recruiit Jill in C12, you must not complete C11 in fewer than 5 turns. If you aren't recruiting Jill, you can likely save one turn in C11.

An Energy Drop on Soren seems a waste. He's unlikely to ever double with siege tomes and a Thunder forge will more cheaply address any 1-2 range Spd loss issues. Better to use the Energy Drop(s) on Titania, Marcia, and/or Tanith, I think. I think the most critical question is whether there's enough Bexp to get Marcia to 2-turn C12. If so, she can save more turns than Jill (and Jill shouldn't be recruited). If Marcia cannot be promoted by C12, it's probably worth recruiting Jill (you'll probably only lose one turn in C11). But at that point, I don't know if it's worth it to invest in Marcia, Jill, or both. A high-level tier 1 Marcia might be able to speed up C12 by 2-3 turns. But it will probably cost 2 turns to recruit her, so... I think Mist would be better if you're getting either the C10 or C11 seal. The +2 mov and canto is quite valuable.

Huh? Oscar has pretty solid durability. By Chapter 5, Oscar is likely to match Shinon's Def and trail HP by only 4-5. I'd also like to demonstrate how poor Shinon's Steel Bow Atk of 18 is by listing when his contemporaries match his attack: Titania with Javelin (her weakest weapon): immediately Gatrie with Javelin (his weakest weapon): immediately Boyd with Steel Axe: immediately Boyd with Iron Axe: level 7 Oscar with Steel Lance: level 7-8 Oscar with Short Spear: level 9-10 Ike with effective Regal Sword: immediately Ike with Iron Blade: level 9 Ike with Steel Sword: level 11 Soren with Wind vs. Generals (Def-Res gap: ~10): immediately Soren with Fire vs. others (Def-Res gap: ~5): level 8

Titania and Oscar get a lot of benefit out of the Seraph Robe. They appreciate the extra durability and it allows them to Bexp for more valuable stats. Absurd. Adept is one of the more valuable skills. Mia generally makes better use of Soren's Adept. There are fast DBs that benefit from Zihark's Adept (most notably Volug). Ulki (especially if denied an Energy Drop) arguably makes better use of Adept than any other unit. And even beyond those excellent candidates, pretty much every unit benefits from Adept because nobody (except perhaps Ike(T) in 3-11 and beyond) can ORKO all enemy types at 1-2 range with certainty. It's almost as much Bexp as Ulki needs to get Tear, which is pretty significant. Indeed... I suppose it might be worth considering Boyd (T) taking the 3-9 Speedwings and a little more Bexp. Nephenee (T) might develop some notable combat leads in 3-8 and 3-10.