aku chi

Let me theorycraft. Chapters where Boyd being rescue-dropped by fliers is potentially better than what the Paladins can do: Chapter 11: Marcia can save some time by cutting across the houses in this chapter, but she can't deal with some of the tougher enemies near the Arrive square. She can drop Boyd, let him do the toughest combat (including ORKOing the Knight on the Arrive square) and arrive. (Of course, if we want to recruit Jill, we can't clear this chapter too fast, so this isn't a big win.) Chapter 13: Jill or Marcia can drop Boyd onto the enemy ship on turn 2 to speed up the rout. This probably isn't necessary for a 7-turn clear, but it could be helpful. Chapter 15: If you don't have Super Marcia or Super Soren, Boyd can be dropped near Muarim (on turn 2 at the earliest) to help one-two Muarim with your flier of choice. Chapter 17-1: While Jill can probably clear the north on her own, dropping Boyd isn't a terrible choice if Jill can't handle it. Chapter 20: If Boyd is durable enough (probably needs skills), dropping him up near Shiharam is an option. Shiharam is one tough dude, Boyd is one of the few units who has a chance to ORKO him. Chapter 25: Dropping somebody at the top of the cliffs is the way to go. Boyd has the best offense, but Tauroneo or Wrath/Vantage Nephenee are more durable. Boyd being rescue-take-drop ferried by mounted units might be valuable in other chapters, but he doesn't have any advantages over the Paladins there, which was the topic at hand, I believe. Good point. I'd rather ferry a Restore Staff user to deal with Sleep shenanigans. Tauroneo, Ike, and the fliers can handle the throne room and Ena well enough. Probably not. But dropping Sage Soren or Ilyana or Boyd or Ike or Mia or Zihark to one-two with a flier is much more realistic, more realistic than banking on an uncertain ORKO from Super Marcia (the Laguz Lance has low hit), as well. Nevertheless, Bexp is not so abundant that it is valueless. The amount of Bexp Marcia needs to reach her potential is substantial and giving it to her deprives other units the means of improving themselves. It is a cost that must be considered.

Or Janaff or Haar or Tanith. I've already explained that Boyd is the best rescue-drop candidate and Marcia is one of several flying droppers. More credit should be given to Boyd when he performs well with a flying rescue-drop. 1) They exist in rout chapters. They must be routed. Boyd can ORKO most enemies at 1-2 range. Maria can't. This is a point in Boyd's favor. 2) Boyd's ability to be rescue-dropped can give him an advantage over every unit who doesn't have the best movement. So while he never has any mobility advantages over Marcia and the other fliers, he can get to places that the Paladins cannot. The best examples are Chapters 15 and 25, where Paladins are slowed down by the terrain, but Boyd can also be rescue-dropped over the moat in Chapter 21, for instance, to get to the throne room faster. Boyd needs a flier to carry him, but he has this option and the Paladins don't. This is an advantage. And since of the fliers, only Jill can come close to matching Boyd's ORKO at range utility or boss killing utility (and she still falls up short), ferrying Boyd with a lesser flier is often worth it. I've never argued to the contrary. Giving Marcia a bunch of Bexp may be optimal, but it is still costly: that Bexp could otherwise have gone to other units who can make good use of it. This should be considered. I agree. Radiant Dragon doesn't seem to agree, though. You're rather proving my point. There are several units other than Marcia who really benefit from a large Bexp dump. Marcia taking that much Bexp is a negative when compared with Boyd, Kieran, and Oscar. I know this is not a draft, that was my original point, directed at those who would use draft experience to suggest that Marcia was more useful than Kieran or Oscar. While this may be the case with a certain popular draft ruleset, I could (and did) craft a hypothetical draft ruleset under which Oscar, Kieran, and Boyd would be comparatively more valuable. I wasn't suggesting that this draft ruleset was any more relevant to a no-unit-restrictions tier list. So let us drop the draft talk. I did it on a recent draft run, so it's possible. It's not realistic with most unit compositions, hence my "More realistically:" segment which I talked about a lower leveled Soren contributing towards a Muarim kill on turn 3 with a flier, neither of whom need 21 AS to double Muarim. But this is still irrelevant.

The Paladins can't be dropped. With the assistance of a flier, Boyd can get to certain locations faster than the Paladins. And Marcia has difficulties ORKOing at range, even with a forged Javelin. She doesn't stand a chance against Generals, Wyvern Lords, and Tigers, for instance. Boyd does (although they're still a difficult forged Hand Axe 2HKO). Marcia is also much more likely to come up short against other enemies like Soldier/Halberdiers, Fighter/Warriors, and Cats, which Boyd doesn't have any problems with. To be fair to Marcia, she is more likely to be able to double and ORKO Myrmidons/Swordmasters and Ravens. Of course she does. She needs a bunch of Bexp to be a viable combat unit. She needs an enormous amount to be able to pull off her really impressive stuff like LTing Chapter 12 and 2-turning Chapter 15. She misses ORKOs at 2-range on a bunch of enemies and she can't ORKO some bosses or Generals that Oscar, Kieran, and Jill can. Throw in Oscar's crucial early chapters (with no Titania) and Oscar is an obvious first pick (or second pick if Titania is drafted). Kieran is more arguable, but if I could use Jill and not Titania or Oscar, I'd prefer Kieran. Okay, so this tier list doesn't recognize Super Marcia's potential performances in Chapters 12 and 15? That doesn't do her any favors. And on the other point, Marcia does need a bunch of Bexp (>500) to ORKO anything except Priests and Mages. Tormod's combat is much better than Volke's, and he has good siege tome utility. But being able to heal at 1-range in the latter half of the game isn't particularly impressive: that was my point. He can. He needs to be promoted, of course. He can get there in 3 turns with a shove or two. I believe he only needs to tank one laguz attack (it could be two). To ORKO Muarim, he needs 21 AS, which isn't trivial (he gets it naturally around level 20/9, but can get it around 20/4 with a Speedwing). His Magic doesn't need to be too high if a forged Fire tome is used. So it's possible. More realistically, he can one-two Muarim with a flier on turn 3 for the win. If you're worried about his durability, you can drop him on turn 2. If he has a tome equipped and your flier doesn't, the flier (probably Jill) can tank the hit. This is all pretty irrelevant, but, yeah...

I'm an interloper here, I'm not about to suggest how this community should tier characters, especially when it concerns thieving and staff utility (always difficult to weigh). I'm only interested in pointing out facts or points of view that might otherwise be overlooked. I wanted to point out, in the event that readers of this topic weren't aware, that Tormod has significant difficulties raising his staff weapon level (moreso than Soren and Ilyana), so his staff utility is lower than might be supposed.

Any scrub flier whose combat isn't good enough to get the job done themselves. This is only Marcia for the first half of the game (unless you haven't trained Jill enough to ORKO at range), but it can be any number of fliers (including the Hawks, if their lack of canto and -1 mov isn't an issue) in the latter half of the game. So Marcia shares her role as one of the best droppers, but Boyd stands alone as the best drop candidate until Chapter 28. But so is Jill... True enough, but even in PoR, there isn't enough Bexp to dump >1000 on Marcia, Jill, Astrid, and Makalov (all good candidates) and still have some for other deserving units like Kieran. Maybe you should re-read them; there are relevant differences.

Regarding Marcia vs. Boyd, I would like to bring up two points: 1) Boyd is, by far, the best 1-2 range droppable unit until Chapter 28. Boyd has good Speed and excellent Strength, letting him double and 2HKO most foes with ranged Axes. Boyd can also develop sufficient, if unspectacular, durability to withstand a lot of enemy exposure. This is a huge help in rout maps. Early on, only Titania can reliably pull this off. Later on, Kieran, Jill, Makalov, and Oscar might also be able to pull this off, but they aren't rescue-drop candidates, and only Jill among them can fly. The next best 1-2 range droppable unit is Nephenee, who struggles to 2HKO at range. Marcia, even with a ton of Bexp, struggles to 2HKO at range and is a little more fragile, so she can't match Boyd's utility in rout maps. 2) Marcia has a lot of potential, but one musn't forget the enormous amount of Bexp Marcia needs to reach that potential. While she uses it well, this is Bexp that could go to other units (of which there are several great candidates). So it isn't accurate to simply compare Marcia's optimal performance with Boyd's optimal performance and discount the different resource needs they require to reach their optimal performance. That being said, Marcia's utility might just be too great for Boyd's performance to beat. But for those using draft experience to argue for Marcia above Kieran, or even Oscar, consider these two points: 1) The nature of the popular Serenes Forest draft rules will tend to undervalue Paladins, due to everybody getting to use Titania. Consider how different a draft would be if instead of Titania, everybody could use Jill. I can almost guarantee that Oscar, Kieran, and probably even Boyd, would be drafted over Marcia. Having two fliers (and a flier in Chapters 11 and 12) is not as valuable as having a lower maintenance 9-mov canto unit with noticeably better combat. And as for Boyd, and especially Oscar, their early-game contributions would be considerably more important without Titania. 2) Drafts in general will tend to encourage resource concentration, so in a draft situation, Marcia getting >1000 Bexp doesn't have nearly the same opportunity cost as in a normal run. When all units are available, Jill, Astrid, and Makalov all greatly benefit from large Bexp dumps. So Marcia getting her Bexp dump is more costly than in a draft scenario where you're likely to be using 0-1 of those other units. Eh, Tormod's stave use is pretty poor due to weapon levels. C Staves for Restore in Chapter 21 or even Physic in Chapter 25 is unlikely, and B Staves for Rescue is pretty much completely out of reach. A much better case could be made for Soren over Volke. Soren (and Ilyana) can get those crucial stave weapon ranks with an early promotion (via Master Seal or Bexp dump), and so has that utility plus (lackluster) siege tome use in addition to normal mage 1-2 range attacks before he gets left behind. Soren also has Chapter 15, where he can pull off a 3 turn clear (if trained enough), which is as good as it gets without Super Marcia.

I feel your pain. I've had that happen before, too.

I meant that there are no playable thieves. But I suppose that you could take advantage of the enemy thief to get a treasure (ideally the Ward staff) and save a Chest Key use. But beware, don't non-fatally damage the thief or he may steal your Vulneraries! That will break his AI (he'll just stand there) and you cannot get the Vulnerary when you kill him. It has happened to me, it could happen to you!

Impressive. Kieran and Brom's cell can also be opened on turn 5, I think (maybe turn 6). Nephenee's cell, I believe, requires turn 8.

9 turns, I believe (assuming Titania can clear the chapter if she escape while carrying Ike). You can recruit all of the characters with a 9-turn stealth strategy, but you can't get any treasures or kill Danomill for the Master Seal.

Understandable. It's not at all obvious that in this chapter alone, opening all of the treasure chests is necessary for an efficient clear (it also isn't obvious that you can't clear it in fewer than 7 turns by game design). But it's also worth pointing out that not all of the Chest Keys in Chapter 10 are easily attainable in an efficient clear or stealth run, and that the Chest Keys in Chapter 27 probably can't be used efficiently.

Let us consider your claim that Chest Keys can cover all of the important treasures. Chapter 7: We can get two sets of Chest Keys in Chapter 7. Because this is a rout, these are guaranteed. No thieves exist during this chapter, so if we want any of the treasures, we need to use Chest Keys. Of these treasures, the Ward staff is probably the only one worth getting, if we're stingy. In hard mode, this is the only Ward staff in the game. In addition to being helpful for its ability, it is also a great way to increase staff rank or get Sexp, so we'll definitely appreciate this one. 3 Chest Key uses left. Chapter 10: There are three possible chest keys here. However, these are unavailable altogether if we're completing the chapter using stealth. If, instead we're LTCing, we might not have the opportunity to get more than one set of Chest Keys. Getting a second set is possible, the third is probably not. As for the treasures here, they're all pretty underwhelming. Only the Short Axe is tempting, since we can't forge Hand Axes yet. It probably isn't worth a Chest Key, but if Volke is deployed, he can nab it for 50G. 3-7 Chest Key uses left. Chapter 13: To clear this faster than ~10 turns, we'll need to loot all of the treasure ourselves. There are seven chests, so we can only pull this off (sans thieves) if we managed to get at least two sets of Chest Keys in Chapter 10. One thief alone can save us 3-4 Chest Keys here on route to a 7-turn clear. Deploying both thieves, we can probably get away with only one, or perhaps even no Chest Key uses. 0 Chest Key uses left. Chapter 16: The good news? There is another set of Chest Keys here. The bad news? There are more than two valuable treasures. The Full Guard and Dracoshield are both valuable treasures, and attainable in a LTC run. The Physic and Bolting are also tempting, but not attainable in an efficient clear. Deploying a thief makes it easier to nab both Full Guard and Dracoshield. 0 Chest Key uses left. Chapter 18: No Chest Key uses left. What are we passing up? Recover, Silence, and Wrath. Wrath is pretty useful, it would be nice to have a thief grab this... Chapter 21: No Chest Key uses left. This time we could have gotten an Energy Drop and the Brave Sword! My, it would be nice to have a thief (for the Energy Drop) and the Chest Key uses they saved (for the Brave Sword). Chapter 22: There are two Chest Key sets here. Unfortunately, an efficient clear makes it impossible to get those Chest Keys (and the treasures). Actually, with a thief and Reyson's help, we might be able to nab either the Sleep staff or Tomahawk on turn 1 (assuming our Tormod/Calill can 1RKO Schaeffer). We'd need a Chest Key saved up to otherwise get these valuables. Chapter 27: The is one Chest Key set here. Unfortunately, it's nowhere near the treasures and so is probably not usable in an efficient clear. Boy would we like to use it, though! The Resolve Scroll is hugely desirable and Fortify is certainly nice. The thieves can get them. 2 Chest Key uses left, with nothing to use them on. So, how are those Chest Keys keeping up? BTW, I recently completed a normal mode draft run in which, on Chapter 13, I nabbed all of the treaures and routed the enemy by turn 5, using a team of Ike, Oscar, Lethe, Soren, Rolf, and Volke. I expended 5 Chest Key uses. I could have saved one or two if I had known that the chapter wouldn't end before turn 7 regardless. This was normal mode, but I expect a 7-turn clear of Chapter 13 should be easily achievable on hard mode with a decent team.