Ottservia

The answer to this is relatively simple it’s because some people just don’t like it regardless of what messages it tries to convey. It’s just a matter of personal preference and there’s nothing wrong with that. My issue is that there are people like myself who actually legitimately relate to the themes and ideas that fates tries to explore but instead of trying to understand that perspective they dismiss it entirely saying Fates’s story is trash. No one can like it for any deeper meaning it has because it has no deeper meaning. Anyone who tries to find a deeper meaning is just over analyzing. The writers are too stupid to think of that. It’s fates its trash. It’s just garbage Japanese anime tropes meant to pander. Stop thinking so hard about it. And yes those previous sentences were directed at @joevar btw. I absolutely despise this. You wanna talk about shutting down others’ opinions that’s what that is. I am so tired of people dismissing these stories instead of actually trying to meet them on their own terms. There’s a lot of good to be found in fates but you’re not gonna see it if you’re just gonna dismissive and not even try to understand how the story is supposed to function rather than how you want it function. Stop looking at things from your singular perspective. Try looking at it from someone else’s perspective for once. If the story doesn’t make sense trying looking at it from a different angle until it makes sense. A lot of fates criticism doesn’t do that.

I’ve already addressed those same points numerous times in the past. Has he listened to them? No of course he hasn’t because he keeps making the same dumb arguments I’ve already debunked multiple times. Also it’s not like you’re much better in this regard. You’re rather dismissive of my arguments too. As I said before, how could my arguments hold any water when everyone knows fates is terrible? Like of course Fates can’t have deeper themes or messages. It’s all garbage. Actually meeting the story on it’s own terms and analyzing it for what it wants to say instead of dismissing on the grounds of popular concensus and subjective opinion? Pfffft fuck that that’s for losers. Why would I ever want to do that. The writers are all incompetent anyway who have no idea what they’re doing and I’m simply smarter than them.

You know maybe I would believe you if you didn’t sound so condescending about it but I think this discussion has gone on long enough

Right who’s the one resorting to insults now? Maybe it’s because people refuse that there’s the possibility that I maybe have a point but no of course not how could I? Fates is terrible after all. There’s no way it could possibly have a deeper meaning or message it wants to say. It’s all plot holes and plot contrivances that the writers are using to manipulate your emotions. But SoV? Oh no that shit is great because it doesn’t have those stupid anime tropes. It saved the franchise from the blight that was Fates. The characters are so much better because they’re not anime tropes and obviously anime tropey characters are all super shallow and can’t have anything deeper to them and anyone who relates to them are just horny or not thinking critical enough. God the double standards in this fanbase make me angry. I’ve had enough of this pseudo intellectual bullshit

Maybe I would if people actually acknowledged my points instead of dismissing them on the grounds of “fates bad so of course it can’t have anything meaningful to say” or whatever. Like it’s one thing to criticize it’s another thing entirely to be unreasonably dismissive towards it. And this is why I hate pseudo intellectuals.

I mean the fact that you criticize Garon and Corrin’s writing at all just proves to me that you did not get the point. Then again you can’t even understand the point of Naruto’s story and Naruto is even more blunt than fates in its messaging to the point of spelling it out for you every single arc

I’m not even just talking about tutorials. At the end of conquest Xander outright directly states the point of his character arc word for word and yet people still don’t understand the point of his character like come on it’s all right there.

You can get all that out of Tobin’s supports which are more one dimensional than Cordelia’s chest yet you can’t understand the themes of Fates’s story even though it blatently explains it to you every five minutes. Like I know I say this a lot but Fire Emblem stories aren’t exactly subtle. Fates especially beats you over the head with its themes every chance it gets. Like I was just replaying conquest recently and it really isn’t that subtle. I mean it’s not as blunt as Naruto or Persona 5 but it’s definitely close.

Well aside from the fact that it just makes sense for Cordelia’s character given her perfectionism and insecurities as a result of that there is evidence to suggest that she was originally planned to be the canon one. If you look at her concept art from the artbook she originally had Blue hair and bared a striking resemblance to Lucina. Also apparently I’ve heard from a few sources that sometime before the games were released IS held a Japanese exclusive poll asking fans to vote on who Chrom’s love interest should with Sumia as the one who came out on top. I don’t have concrete evidence for that one though

Actually that honor belongs to Sully because the only thing she gives Lucina are swordmaster skills without Galeforce which just makes her a worse Olivia in that regard. Maribelle is the second worse option simply because Lucina doesn’t benefit all that much from magic mods

Actually you could make the argument that Sumia!Lucina is better than Olivia!Sumia. Sure you lose out on Vantage and Swordfaire but Sumia gives her access to pavgise+rightful king combo which more than makes up for it. Cynthia also benefits from the pairing as well with both pavgise and good sustain with aether. It really just depends on if you want a more offensive or defensive Lucina really

I feel like that’s only the result of good voice acting and dialogue which credit where credit is due. 8-4 certainly did their job right in that regard. Personally I feel like Silas is just a better version of Stahl cause at least Silas has more of a personality and fun quirks that make him more endearing. I will admit that maybe Stahl was probably a poor example. That said, I would still disagree on the idea that Tobin is more of a character than Stahl cause at least with Stahl he has a number of decent supports that shed light on the better aspects of his character. His support with Cherche for instance is a rather wholesome one about them talking about the cultural differences between Ylisse and Rosanne. Or how in his Maribelle supports he admits to not having much of an ambition because he’d rather see others succeed before really deciding on his own goals. Honestly I would argue Tobin has just as much of a personality as Stahl. It only doesn’t seem that way because of Robbie Daymond’s excellent performance which Stahl doesn’t have. You take away that performance and that demeanor you spoke of kind of disappears or at the very least it’s a lot less prominent. On the topic of characterization though. I am of the opinion that the more tropey a character is the better their characterization usually ends ip being I mean that depends on the game and support system in question actually. In 3H I would agree it effects the pacing but in a game like Fates or awakening not really because you have to actively work for those supports

Personally I find them both boring as sin but at least I know more about Stahl than I do Tobin like his hobbies and such which is better. A lot of what you can say about Tobin isn’t very definitive because there’s so little to draw from. Sure, Tobin has something of a worldview(not much of one mind you) but that’s really it. Like what else is there to Tobin besides his inferiority complex? And even that aspect of his character is hardly ever shown outside of a few voiced lines. It’s also extremely shallow in its execution and only really serves as another excuse for the game to make Alm look better as if it doesn’t suck his dick enough as it is. At least Stahl is his own character with his own hobbies and life outside the main story. He’s a chill dude that likes to help people. Sure he’s got about as much of a personality as a stale piece of white bread but his character works because it bounces well off of other characters. It’s the same reason M!Robin works because they’re chill dudes you can have a cup of coffee with. Though I find Robin a million times more interesting than stahl but whatever. Honestly, I’m the last person to think you should show every minute detail of world building or a character’s life. Also that’s a bit of a false analogy(I think that’s the right term) because your argument only refers to exposition and the structure of a story not optional supplementary material. Fire Emblem supports more so fall into the latter rather than the former because Supports are optional(for the most part) short little character interactions that allow us to learn more about them and in that regard you wanna cram in as much as you can in those. and even beyond that, the reason we don’t show every second of a character’s lives in a story is mostly because it’s not interesting and doesn’t add anything the reader absolutely has to know for the story to function. Again supports are a completely different beast simply for the fact that they are mostly optional and the point of them is give more information on these characters. The reader doesn’t need to know anything found in supports for the story to function but the things you do find in supports help flesh out the world and characters. The point of supports is to learn what these characters do in their day to day lives, what their hobbies are, likes, dislikes, worldview, etc. that’s why you read supports in the first place. It’s to allow the audience to learn these mundane facts about them. And in that regard more supports is not inherently a bad thing

Finally someone fucking gets it

Or how Stahl is really nice guy who wants to help his friends in any way he can despite his own deficiencies. Or how he’s genuinely curious of learning of different cultures and perspectives. He doesn’t view himself as that interesting or have any real aspirations of his own but if he can be a shoulder to lean on or lend a helping hand when needed that’s all he really needs. He’s kind, soft spoken, and willing to work hard if it means he can better help others. He knows a good deal about apothecary too. In comparison to Tobin all I can really say is that he has an inferiority complex to Alm and works hard for his friends and family which is similar to Stahl but the difference is in the details. But I don’t feel like writing an essay right now. I feel like we played completely different games

This is a strawman. I never argued this

No cause I haven’t seen them and even if I said no to that question that’s not my point. I’ll admit I’ve been arguing my point rather poorly so far but to clarify myself I’m not saying longer stories are inherently better. That’s just not true. I more so agree with @vanguard333 in that a story should only be as long as it needs to be. However in regards to Fire Emblem supports specifically the more supports the better because more opportunities for fun characterization or development is NEVER a bad thing. And I want to make this as clear as humanly possible because people keep misinterpreting my point. When I say more supports are inherently better what I mean is that learning more about the characters is never a bad thing. A character with more supports is typically gonna be more fleshed out than a character with less supports. What can you tell me about Tobin as opposed to say Stahl. Do you get my point?

"a longer book/story is always better than a shorter one. It’s just basic logic. A character with more screentime is always gonna be more fleshed out and better developed than a character with less screen time" You sure about that? Well yeah in that specific circumstance yes Longer is typically better. Or rather a better way to phrase it is that more is not inherently bad. Like if you can craft a well written character in a single chapter just imagine what you can do with 2 or 3 chapters with that same character. It’s almost never a bad thing to learn more about your characters by giving them more screentime. It just doesn’t make sense to me when people say say less supports are better than the opposite because typically more supports is usually a good thing because more character interaction prompts more opportunities for development and characterization. If the goal of supports is to allow us to learn more about these characters then more is typically better because you can throw them into a variety of different scenarios which can prompt interesting characterization. If awakening or fates had less supports, we wouldn’t half the things we do about these characters like how Peri is a good cook, or Kjelle’s love of armor, or How Laurent is secretly a huge bottom that wants to be berated constantly. You know small stuff like that. They’re minor things but it’s all those little that really bring a character alive to me. There’s a lot that can be found in “filler”. Not everything needs to to be this deep meaningful conversation on the meaning of life or a character’s tragic backstory. Sometimes some light hearted slice of life works just fine.

I dunno you tell me. You’re the one who started it.

And I agree especially in regards to a visual medium but you’re still missing my point. It doesn’t matter what you use to tell your story. If you want more fleshed out characters then they need more screentime that should be obvious. Even if there is no dialogue that statement still holds true. I never said supports were a good system. I never stated that once in my whole argument because that’s an entirely different argument altogether. No I’m arguing the supports you said were “filler” can still be meaningful that has nothing to do with with whether the support system is a good system. That’s a whole different conversation than the one we’re having. My point is, and I am going to state this as clear as possible, is that if you want to further develop your characters then you give them more screen time and character interaction. In the case of Fire Emblem that means more supports because Fire Emblem uses the support system to develop its characters. Whether or not the support system is a good system is an entirely different argument

Oh it is because one of the reasons Dressrossa is so long is because of Law and yet Law is cited as one of the primary reasons people love that arc

I mean if One piece is any indication this is not true at all because if it were true then the series would not be 1000+ chapters long. Not that I necessarily disagree with this stance it’s just in regards to the argument being presented I disagree because less is more is a good piece of advice. If you can create an interesting character for the audience to get invested in with only 100 words or less yeah that is good but you can only do so much with 100 words and if you want to develop the character further then obviously you’re gonna need more words than that. Like that’s just how it works. How does less screentime = more development. That’s just inherently illogical. How does that even begin to make sense. A well written character with 100 chapters of screen time will always be more fleshed out and developed than a character with only 10 chapters of screentime. If you want better developed characters they need more screentime and thus in case more supports. my point in regards to those examples still stands. Counterpoint Trafalger Water D. Law

Well that has nothing to do with Quantity as much as quality. Like it doesn’t matter if there are 2 or 200 supports. If you have a shitty writer then they’re going to write bad supports no matter how many of them there are. It also depends on the character. If the character is one dimensional and the writer doesn’t intend to do anything more with them then obliviously more screentime isn’t going to improve much so it’s just better to give them less screentime. My point though is that more supports do present an opportunity for fleshing out seemingly one dimensional characters. Also repetition isn’t inherently a bad thing. One Piece arcs are relatively repititive but that doesn’t make them bad. Hell in a lot of cases the repitition is intentional. The same is true for Bleach btw. Like I said with Benice. This mind set just comes from being unreasonably dismissive Also I love how you’re not acknowledging any of my other points regarding what Oda and Kishimoto have stated in interviews about what determines the length of a story or arc. The hell are you talking about? Dressrossa is actually pretty widely loved among the community. Doflamingo is often cited as one of the best villains in the series and don’t even get me started on how popular of a character Law is. Also Wano is longer than dressrossa which means the length of the arc has nothing to do with its quality.

I mean I’m not trying to say longer is always better. Because there’s nothing wrong with a story of any length inherently. My point is as I said earlier longer means more opportunities to flesh out your setting and characters. To reiterate my point on Bleach. The arrancar arc is only as long as it is because Kubo decided to flesh out his side characters more which in turn required them to have more screen time which in turn made the story longer. One Piece is the same way. The reason the story is as long as it is is because Oda wanted to flesh out his world and characters. He’s even gone on record to state that the seven warlords are the part of the reason the story is so long because he felt it was unfair to to the audience to introduce all these characters and not flesh them out properly. Kishimoto even understands that a longer story is required when you have a lot of characters as he said in an interview with Horikoshi that whenever you’re planning out an arc always plan on it being double the length that you originally intended. This very thing happened to Horikoshi. The sports festival arc was originally only supposed to be 10 chapters long but wound up being over 20 because he realized he had all these side characters he had to give some attention too. You’re missing my point. My point isn’t that more is objectively better than less cause it isn’t. It’s that if you want to develop a character more then you have to increase the amount of screentime they get. Tell me how much can you develop a character in only 100 words? You see my point? In regards to this point I will say this mentality pisses me off to put it bluntly. Cause you can find meaning in literally everything in a story you just have to try to find it. To suggest a story has no meaning is stupid, disrespectful, and straight up false. You can find meaningful characterization in the most innocuous of places. The only reason you’re not seeing it is because you’re not trying to see it. You want an example? Take Severa’s father support for instance. the C and B supports can just be seen as Severa being a spoiled brat but when you look a little closer there’s a little more to it. There’s one line from Severa in the C support that sticks out. In that she says: ”Odd? Is there something wrong with that? Are you embarrassed to be seen with me?! You’d rather be with Mother, wouldn’t you?” Now this can just be seen as her trying to guilt trip her father into buying her stuff but it’s when you get to the A support that things become a bit more clear where she basically assumes that her father is disappointed in her for not being like her mother because that’s how people have treated her all her life. It adds more context to that line from the C support. Sure it can be her guilt tripping but there is some truth in how she feels in there. When her father says no she automatically compares herself to her mother because that’s how she’s been treated all her life. When someone expresses some kind of disappointment with her, they almost always compare her to her mother. Another aspect of the A support that ties into the first two convos is at the end where her father says: ”And hey-you have been doing all of your chores. So how about that reward now?” to which Severa responds: ”No. I don’t need it. I don’t need anything but you, daddy!” Now taking my head out of the gutter for a minute, this exchange completely recontextualizes the entire support because it shows Severa never really wanted all those fancy dresses and stuff. She just wanted to be acknowledged by her father and spend time with him but because of her low self-esteem she just kind of assumes he doesn’t want to spend time with her because she’s not Cordelia so she feels her only choice is to guilt trip him into doing so. Which by the end of the support, this mind set is proven to be false. you can even find meaningful characterization in more “filler” supports like Severa and Kjelle for instance. That support may just be Severa showing Kjelle how to be more girly but it reveals a number of things about both of them. Namely it shows how much they value appearance and things like that which also build on what was already established about their characters. Severa highly values her appearance and how she presents herself because 1. She’s Cordelia’s daughter who has more than a few support chains telling other characters to better clean themselves(namely Gaius and Sumia) and 2. Her sort of inferiority complex means she needs to validate herself in any way she can and her looking cute and pretty is one way she does that which is even outright stated in an event tile conversation. In regards to Kjelle well she’s a tomboy so she doesn’t really value that stuff and she’s more concerned with wanting to train and get stronger. Her appearance is also mostly covered by armor anyway so she doesn’t really feel the need to care much about her looks. It even ties into her support with her mother in that different people are good at different things and you shouldn’t force people to improve on things they’re clearly not talented in because Severa does end up failing in the end because that sort of thing just doesn’t fit Kjelle. Is all that not meaningful characterization? You can find a deeper meaning in any story. You just have to be open minded enough to look for it.

Wano is also the longest arc in the series so you know that kind of proves my point now doesn’t it