Ottservia

No I’m saying Madara stole that chakra from Hashirama himself. He has Hashirama’s cells therefore those cells would naturally react to Hashirama’s chakra. Remember sage mode is a mixture of physical, spiritual, and natural energy. Madara wasn’t just absorbing nature energy from Hashirama. He was absorbing all of Hashirama’s chakra which the cells in his body reacted to appropriately. Why else did you think Itachi said he needed to steal Sasuke’s eyes. Blindness caused by overusing the Mangekyo can hinder its abilities. Itachi outright explains this to Sasuke when they fought. Yes I can to an extent but the fact that you don’t like it doesn’t make it a narrative flaw. That’s just a matter of personal preference Cool in the meantime I’m just gonna leave this video here

His exact words were and I quote “so that’s all there is to it, this will be easy to control” which could have a couple of implications but the primary one being that he figured it out pretty quickly when he absorbed it which makes sense because: 1. Sage mode doesn’t immediately take you over that fact depends on how much natural chakra you possess and this is Madara we’re talking about 2. he has Hashirama cells already so obviously those cells would react to his sage chakra in a natural way and not take over madara. It makes perfect sense You see it’s this kind of criticism that I despise for a couple of reasons 1. Yeah Kaguya is a plot device but so is literally everything else in a story so that criticism is moot cause you can apply it to literally everything 2. So fucking what if it’s another one of those situations?! There’s no rule in writing to say that you can’t or shouldn’t do that. If you found it annoying that’s fine that’s your opinion which you’re free to have but that’s not an objective narrative flaw of the story. It’s your personal taste which isn’t critisiscm 3. She contributes everything to the plot and themes of the story. If you think otherwise, then I’m sorry you have to go rewatch it because you clearly did not pay attention to what was happening. You failed to understand what Kaguya is supposed to represent and what she adds to this story. To say she adds nothing is false because she does add something. You either aren’t seeing it or simply don’t like what she adds. Like I said she basically is an extreme representation of Madara’s ideals as well as those of the shinobi world as a whole. Madara wanted to become a god that rose above the contradictory world of shinobi. What is Kaguya? A god that exists above the contradictory world of shinobi. The parallel is blatantly obvious. Come on this shit ain’t rocket science. Itachi was also practically blind by that point should weaken his Susano but he was still able to use it and to a pretty advanced stage too. And the Shisui thing I believe is also in the light novels which are canon I believe or at least they were approved by Kishimoto himself. In regards to Kakashi and Obito, the story states you need both eyes to unlock it not use it and yes there is a difference. Hey if you can present an argument that doesn’t essentially boil down to “Sasuke too mean/edgy therefore bad character” or “Sasuke should’ve protected the leaf after learning the truth of Itachi. It makes no sense why he’d want to destroy it therefore he’s a bad character.” Like 90% of all Sasuke criticisms I’ve heard I’m all ears but otherwise I can write multiple paragraphs to prove both of those statements wrong because I’ve heard them a million times by now. Because he kept acting as if it was objective narrative flaw of the story when it wasn’t and that’s what pissed me off. The Uchiha clan are an extremely important part of the story and the fact this guy can’t realize that is simply stupid. I will admit I got a little heated with that one. I apologize but I’m still sick of hearing this shit because I can hear that take every other week.

Naruto is my favorite manga of all time perhaps even fictional story of all time period. And excuse me for being blunt but reading the posts in this thread make me want to vomit for how blatantly all these takes completely misunderstood the story Kishimoto was trying to tell. Let’s start with this fucking stupid take. The Whole point of Naruto’s narrative rests in that destined fight between Uchiha and Senju. Naruto is a story about trying to find an end to the cycle of hatred which all started with Indra and Asura. The uchiha’s “curse of hatred” ties into that theme perfectly. And if you think otherwise, then I’m sorry you weren’t paying attention to the narrative at all. Like it’s literally outright explained that the uchiha’s power comes from losing love and discovering hate. The sharingan is said to ONLY AWAKEN in response to losing a loved one which then further evolves into the Mangekyo when that hatred grows even further. That’s the uchiha’s curse of hatred. We see this with Characters like Madara, Obito, and especially Sasuke. The sharingan itself is also symbolically linked to perception as whenever Sasuke’s view on the world shifts his sharingan evolves. This idea is further emphasized by how the mangekyo causes blindness. We see this with Sasuke during the five kage summit when his character is so far gone and consumed by his own darkness that he literally is unable to see the world for what it is anymore. Thematically it’s a literal representation of Sasuke losing himself and being consumed by hatred that he’s losing sight of the world around him. And that’s not even getting the thematic meaning in regards to how the Uchiha clan massacre is what drove so many of the story’s events into motion and how the after effects that event had on Sasuke’s character forces him to learn more about the shinobi world and how twisted and fucked up of a place it truly was. To say the uchiha don’t fit into the themes of this story is simply false. I could go on and on about all the thematic meanings and nuances of Naruto’s story but then we’d be here all day Yes because as we all know the ONLY way a female character can have worth in a story is if they can fight. If they can’t fight then they’re worthless and should stay in the kitchen. I am so tired of hearing this take Honestly I have yet to hear a good argument as to what makes Sasuke “poorly executed” because 90% of the time the argument boils down to “Sasuke too mean and edgy therefore I don’t like him therefore he is a bad character” when that’s not what makes a bad character. Sakura was always an amazing character the hell are you talking about? Kaguya is probably one of the best representation of the story’s themes besides Sasuke and Naruto themselves because she essentially represents that idea of shinobi as tools taken to a faraway extreme. Itachi was able to use his susano while he was near blind and with neither of his sharingan active. Also if you want to use filler Shisui was able to use his after Danzo took one of his sharingan. So it’s not difficult to imagine that the ability sticks with you regardless of if you have your sharingan or not so long as you have already unlocked it. I mean Nagato wasn’t able to use Susano even though those rinnegan were Madara’s. It isn’t a hige stretch to assume Madara understands how Sage mode works. He fought Hashirama countless times after all and after so many clashes with the same guy you would probably grasp on how all their abilities work. And besides Madara does his research. You think he was just bumming around in that cave nothing? No he was gathering intelligence so again it’s not so much of a stretch to assume he knows how it all works.

My favorite anime/manga(though mostly manga) are 1. Naruto 2. One Piece 3. Bleach 4. Black Clover 5. Mha

I’d be down for this

I might pop in to give it a shot here or there. Been a while since the last one and I think I’ve improved somewhat since then

I mean lots of people do if popularity polls are any indication. Though this leads into my unpopular opinion in that Xander is one of the better instances of the Camus archetype simply because of how relatable his situation is. That feeling of wanting to speak out against a family member but not being able to due to your own insecurities and fear is feeling we can all understand to some degree

No, I do understand what the intentions are. I just don't dismiss the bad execution because there were good intentions somewhere. Divining what the intentions are with a scene is generally a very easy thing to do with Fire Emblem. The only scene in the series where I really don't know what they were trying to do is Kronya's death in Three Houses. Then prove that to me because you haven’t done that so far. You keep going on and on about bad execution this and bad execution that but you never quite explain what that means. Because from my understanding said “bad execution” you keep droning on about doesn’t really exist at least in the way you think it does

Well yeah because that’s kind of what you are saying because you’re just being dismissive towards it. Once again you’re completely misunderstanding what I mean when I say you’re being dismissive. Once again, don’t dismiss things for not mattering when you could instead aim to find out why they do. Or to put it another way, just because something bored you or failed to grab you emotionally that doesn’t mean it’s devoid of narrative value. I’m not arguing the execution of the ideas I’m arguing about the existence of those ideas in it of themselves. You just look at Lilith’s death and go “it doesn’t work because Lilith is an underdeveloped character so I don’t feel anything therefore it’s bad writing”. I look at Lilith’s death and say “yeah she’s an underdeveloped character but this was put here for a reason and how does that relate to the story as a whole?” Lilith’s death doesn’t do anything for me personally on an emotional level because like you said she’s an underdeveloped character(DLC aside anyway) but that shouldn’t limit my ability to meet the story on its own terms and understand what it’s trying to say regardless of my own personal feelings. It’s not about judging whether the story was able to get me to feel emotionally invested because that’s entirely subjective. It’s about being able to understand the story regardless of that. There’s a difference between being critical and being a nitpicky dismissive asshole. You are the ladder. Being critical does not mean blatently ignoring the context of what the story is trying to say and calling something bad due to arbritrary subjective personal standard. There’s a big difference between criticizing a story for what it is trying to do vs critcizing it for not being what you want it to be. A lot of fates criticism falls into the latter category. I’m glad we can agree on this matter but like I said there’s a difference between good criticism and bad criticism and it’s your job as a writer to discern the difference. Like I said before, if you show ten different people your story and half of them hate it while the other half love it. Work on pleasing the people who love it rather than those who hate it. You can’t please everyone no matter how hard you try. You shouldn’t have to sacrife the “purity” of your work to conform to the opinions of others as the legend, himself, Tite Kubo puts it.

Imagine if someone said that to you regarding something you created. How would you feel? That’d be pretty darn rude if you asked me but that’s just my personal opinion This isn’t the gotcha you think it is because I never said you’re not allowed to dislike something. What I am saying though is that you shouldn’t be stupid. Don’t say shit that isn’t true. If you’re gonna make a claim then back it up. There are plenty of ways to criticize something while being constructive and in good faith. You shouldn’t have to lie or misconstrue context to make something look worse that’s just bad faith criticism. Saying Fates bad because Corrin is a mary sue is an example of that sort of bad faith criticism. Or saying Lilith’s death is dumb because it adds nothing to the story is another such example of bad faith criticism. The same goes with saying Moral gray can’t exist in Fire Emblem because IS is too afraid to make people’s waifus look like bad people. It’s a stupid criticism because it makes no amount of logical sense. I just ask you give criticism in good faith which so far you haven’t done. All you’ve done is point at things and call it bad storytelling without really explaining why. Lilith’s death scene works in the context of the narrative the story is trying to convey as Lilith herself is thematically similar to Azura in her role in the story. Both are strongly related to Corrin, both know more about the greater context of what’s going on, both of them follow corrin regardless of their chosen path as well as help and support them along that path, and both die in BR and CQ as a result of the inherent flaws of Corrin’s character explored in each route. These similarities are made even more apparent in the heirs of fate DLC where both Azura and Lilith help guide the kids into doing what they need to do. Lilith helping them use the teleportation crystals and Azura teaching Shigure the final verse as well as giving Kana the dragon stone. Lilith being Corrin’s actual sibling adds weight to the whole family theme the story explores especially with Lilith being the one to help repair the Yato which is repaired thanks to Corrin’s belief in themselves and their family which is what Lilith helps them realize. No that’s exactly what people are arguing just not in those exact words. Again you’re just being pedantic. You are arguing Lilith’s death is dumb because it adds nothing to the story which might as well be the same as saying it has no deeper thematic meaning. This happens every single time you start losing an argument you just start crying strawman fallacy at me because you can’t think of any other way to counter me can you? Cause so far you haven’t posed a strong enough counter argument. Instead you keep trying to say I’m strawmanning you when I’m not. You see the key difference between common fates criticism and my criticisms of SoV is that I’m able to frame my arguments in a way that does at least respect what SoV is trying to say as a story. It’s a story about duality where two opposite yet complementary ideals must come together in order to achieve true prosperity. It does that very poorly mind you but that’s the idea it’s going for and it’s not at all subtle about it. I mean that’s quite literally what Duma says when you stick the sword through his head at the end of the game so again I don’t see how you can be any more blunt that. Problem is that story doesn’t showcase that idea very well with its protagonists. Instead opting to portray Alm as the most generic light novel protagonist you’ll ever see. One thing I will concede through is that Alm refers to himself with “Boku” in Japanese both in gaiden amd SoV which I find to be an odd choice of characterization considering what his character is supposed to represent. You would think “Ore” would make more sense but I guess not. Regardless, my point is that I’ll never say a plot point in SoV is pointless or adds nothing to the story because every plot point has some kind of thematic value be it big or small. I’ll say that in regards to supports though because the supports are so barebones even a skeleton has more meat on them but I digress.

Yes, to you but that doesn’t apply to other people like myself. Just because you can’t see a deeper that doesn’t mean it isn’t there. I’m just gonna keep repeating myself. Don’t dismiss things for not mattering when you can instead aim to figure why they do. Yeah because the criticisms people make towards Fates are usually completely stupid if I’m being honest. It reminds me a lot of Naruto discussion where people will actually lie or misconstrue context just to make it look worse than it actually is and that’s what really bothers me here. Because people completely disregard what fates is trying to say in order to create their dumb criticisms. Corrin isn’t a mary sue. Not everyone loves Corrin unconditionally and in regards to all the royals trusting Corrin that’s kind of the point. Fates’s narrative deals in themes regarding trust and family. It’s directly stated multiple times mind you that the Yato only grows in power when Corrin gains the trust of other people. Like literally in the heirs of fate dlc Kanna directly states that Yato didn’t transform into the omega Yato because she doubted Shigure. I don’t know how you can get more blunt than that. It’s also stated and shown multiple times that Corrin’s Naivete is both a strength and a weakness but oh no people just say “oh that’s player pandering worship” completely disregarding the themes of trust, truth, deceit, and betrayal the story tries to set up. This is what I mean by people being dismissive. They completely ignore these things about the story in order to make Fates look worse. I don’t mind criticisms of fates. In fact, I have plenty of my own but my criticisms respect what the narrative is trying to say and how certain things go against that point like being able to S-support the royals for instance. Also you still haven’t provided a good counter argument for my previous point. instead, only pointing out that I’m strawmanning which ironically is a logical fallacy in it of itself. The fallacy fallacy to be specific. And even I’m not even strawmanning, you’re just being pedantic to say that I am

And my point is we should respect the author enough to try and find meaning in their story even if we don’t personally think it’s there. Because how do you know there’s no deeper meaning present? You won’t know until you try to find it. Dissmissing something as having no meaning simply rude and arrogant. It’s so easy to say there’s no meaning here because Lilith is underdeveloped character when the death in question does have clearly visible effects on Corrin’s character and that is something worth looking at. It’s something worth looking at and analyzing. Corrin is clearly distraught by it and something like that inherently carries meaning. Any character action has meaning because every character action is a form of characterization which informs us about the character. Which again is meaning!! I am so so tired of this rhetoric that you keep saying you’re only analyzing what’s there because you’re not because if you were then you wouldn’t be saying it has no meaning when it clearly does. It may not be much and you may not like it but it is there whether you agree or disagree. Stop saying the story itself is being dismissive because it’s not, you are. If the story was dismissive then Corrin would not feel sad over Lilith’s death nor would they expand on her character in hidden truths. Not to mention the fact that she also appears at the end of the game and helps Corrin restore the broken Yato. So no the story is not dismissive of Lilith’s death, you are

And my point is who says those two things are mutually exclusive? Why can’t something be both thematically meaningful and there for marketing reasons. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. It can fulfill both and I’d like to give the the writers the benefit of the doubt in regards to that and try to find that meaning.

That if a writer goes out of there way to bring the audience’s attention to something then there is always a reason for it. Sure the curtains may just be blue but why would the author go out of his way to describe them as blue. If it was truly a meaningless detail that ultimately didn’t matter then the author would not have made the decision to describe the color of the curtains in the first place. This should be especially true if you’re working on a deadline. Why would an author waste time on seemingly meaningless details or plot points without good reason? So maybe instead of saying the curtains were just blue maybe try to figure why the author tried to describe them as such in the first place

Who said I was praising it? First of all I agree that Lilith’s death is poorly executed though it is retroactively made better thanks to hidden truths. Secondly, I’m gonna repeat what I said. I mean you could the say the same for every weekly manga magazine. Under weekly serialization, mangaka are constantly under pressure of getting their series canceled if they under perform but that doesn’t mean their stories don’t have thematic meaning. That’s just inherently false so this argument is just plain stupid.

That’s not at all what I’m trying to say. I just think it’s rude and disrespectful to say a story has no meaning when it clearly does because otherwise there wouldn’t be people who would legitimately feel sad over Lilith’s death. To say her death is meaningless and doesn’t contribute to the story in a meaningful way is simply wrong. The writers still made the conscious choice to put that death there when they could have easily not have done that. And to that end, it should have meaning because no plot point is done without any kind of thematic purpose well executed or otherwise. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. Like or dislike things on their merits and for what they offer just don’t dismiss them for not mattering when you could instead figure out why they do. I don’t think something the author thought was important enough to show should be dismissed because of personal bias.

Okay first of all, Kubo does not have a bad relationship with his editors. That is just straight up false. He even goes on record to state numerous times in interviews and volume blurbs to say he and his editors are good friends. He even congratulated his editor on getting married in one his little volume blurbs. So no he doesn’t have a bad relationship with his editors. He just has a unique view on criticism. One I actually agree with in that you shouldn’t try to please everyone. If you show your work to 10 people and half of them love it while the other half hates it, then you should work on pleasing those who like it because you shouldn’t have to compromise your artistic expression to please people who will never enjoy what you write. Write what you want because it’s your story and you shouldn’t have to conform to the opinions of others if you feel it doesn’t align with the story you want to tell. In regards to shonen jump, yes the industry tough and grueling but artistic passion plays a part in that as well. Shonen jump does allow breaks if the mangaka isn’t doing so well healthwise like recently with Gege and JJK. SJ even allow series to end on the author’s own terms instead of pressuring them to continue because they found it leads to better stories. Even in regards to Kubo, specifically, he only continued on despite declining health because of a letter from a fan who was terminally ill and wanted to see the conclusion of Bleach’s story or at the very least wanted Kubo to reach the desired conclusion of his story. I’d recommend reading Bakuman it’s a pretty good look into how the industry works even if it’s not entirely realistic. Which is why I also recommend doing your damn research instead of continuing to spread misinformation like this. And you just proved my point thanks

Is it really so hard to not assume the worst intentions in a piece of fiction. Just because something seems shallow that doesn’t mean it actually is. The reason that people do feel anything for Lilith’s death means that there is meaning and depth to it. Instead of dismissing it as some shallow attempt to manipulate the audience, how about you actually respect the author’s intentions and try to understand what the story is trying to convey with that. You can boil anything down to a shallow barebones poor intent description. It’s so easy to do, watch. Naruto only lost to Sasuke for the first time at the valley at the end just as a subversion of expectation and the series was supposed to end there but his editors pressured him to continue the series so they could make more money off of it. You see how easy it is and almost everything I just typed is not true. First, yes it could’ve been a subversion of expectation but it does not take away from the deep thematic conflict of Naruto only lost to Sasuke because he failed to understand Sasuke and contradicted himself in the process. Sasuke was alone because he knew the pain of loss while Naruto didn’t but instead of trying to understand Sasuke just forced his will onto him thoughtlessly. Secondly, Kishimoto continued the series of his volition because he felt he could do more with these characters and thought the story was not finished by that point. His editors had nothing to do with it. A better example would be Kubo who ended bleach on his own terms. Shounen jump never told him to rush the ending. He decided to end the series early due to his declining health. The man was literally dying writing and drawing the last arc of bleach so it makes sense he’d cut the ending short instead of kicking the bucket without being able to end his story. I just think authors deserve a basic level of respect, you know

You understand all this yet you can’t seem to understand what I mean when I say storytelling is inherently contrived. Well alright then. Even disregarding, I don’t like this way of thinking to some extent because it just assumes bad intent by the author which is just the definition of bad faith. Because you’re assuming the author did this knowing it was a bad idea. When first of all, again that’s the definition of bad faith assuming the worst in something from any kind of authoritative voice. Secondly, I have met people who were legitimately sad over Lilith’s death. They exist and I think it’s quite arrogant of you to assume that no one is capable of feeling sad over her death just because you personally didn’t. Unless you want to argue that they’re stupid for feeling sad over the death which is just rude plain and simple.

Personally I’d like to give writers a lot more credit than that. I doubt it’s simply surface level window dressing. I mean in one piece the tiger and dragon symbolism is meant to convey how the lowly tiger is only able to beat the mighty dragon once it has stagnated and grown passive. I mean literally the guy is named fisher tiger who frees slaves from the celestial dragons. It’s pretty obvious what Oda is trying to for here. And even in Toradora its used to show how Taiga and Ryuji complete one another. In true daoist fashion they have pieces of the other within themselves and can’t exist without each other. Like I said I don’t like to believe these writers are stupid that’s just disrespectful. Hell, Naruto and Sasuke can be equated through Yin and Yang and the doist symbolism in there runs pretty deep because it’s outright stated numerous times how Naruto and Sasuke’s roles could have easily been reversed had circumstances been only slightly different. One has the potential to become the other. While Sasuke has the potential to see light, Naruto has a nest of darkness sleeping inside of him. And I highly doubt it’s simply Kishimoto is just using as surface level window dressing. Even in Naruto, Sasuke is considered the more active and relentless one at least by the end of the series what with his whole revolution plan but I digress.

Try telling that to Taiga but this isn’t the thread to talk about the themes and morifs of Toradora so I digress. Even so it’s not just fates that inverts it so does literally every other story I’ve seen use this symbolism. Why does Zekrom have such a masculine design if he’s supposed to be Yin?! Also if Yin is supposed to be more passive then why is the point of Phoenix wright(Ryuchi in Japanese) supposed to point out contradictions by only striking at the right statement? You know passively waiting for the right opportunity to strike! He’s supposed to be the dragon or yang. Shouldn’t he be more active and aggressive? Like I said I feel like there’s something missing here and I wish I knew what it was. Cause after doing some more research you’re right. Yin is supposed to be the passive one but that doesn’t explain why it’s inverted everytime I see it used in Japanese media. Also technically speaking, you could consider the endings of Birthright and Conquest bad endings because not all the plot threads were resolved. Each one has a bitter sweet feel. Throw in the fact that Rev was always supposed to be a thing. The developers have confirmed that the game was to have three paths from the outset so it makes sense. I tend to view Fates’s route split much like Fate/Stay night. The two stories share a lot of similarities actually.

really? Cause every time I’ve seen the symbolism/motif used the tiger or yin is always depicted as the more active, relentless, and idealistic one while yang is usually depicted as more passive. I mean it’s like that in Toradora, ace attorney, Pokemon, Naruto, and One Piece. And every source I read on the subject when I went to fact check myself said the same so there’s something that’s being lost here. I couldn’t tell you what it is though. The doaist symbolism is still pretty blatent in fates though even disregarding that. I mean it’s even in the titles of each verse of lost in thoughts. In conquest it’s titled “land” while in birthright it’s titled “sky” referencing the other things yin and yang represent those being heaven and earth. The daoist symbolism also explains why Valla is empty and desolate because it’s supposed to represent wuji or the absence of yin and yang. There’s also the Yato which only fully awakens when the powers of light and dark are combined into it. It’s like a kyurem situation from Pokémon

This actually feeds into the daoist symbolism that Fates is trying to showcase. Nohr is supposed to represent Yin or darkness and earth. And when you look at it from the tiger and dragon idiom present in buddhism it starts to come together. The tiger in that idiom also represents Yin and tigers are said to be ruthless, relentless, tough, and indomitable. They stick low to the ground and are utterly relentless in their assault. Sound familiar? Yeah it sounds a lot like Nohr and Garon doesn’t it. Yang or heavenly dragons by contrast are more passive and wise. They bide their time and only strike when the opportunity presents itself much like how Hoshido is not the aggressor in this conflict and plays a more passive role until provoked. The daoist symbolism is even present on the covers of each game. Yin is represents more feminine qualities which is why Female Corrin is on Conquest’s cover art while yang represents masculinity and is why Male Corrin is on Birthright’s cover art. You see the story makes a lot more sense when you understand the religious symbolism behind it. Fates’s moral ambiguity comes from its daoist symbolism where the solution to the conflict isn’t in destroying one or the other but rather finding balance between the two which Corrin does in Revelation and that is the reason he’s able to kill Anankos the representation of wuji or emptiness. Like I said Fates that makes you question what you perceive as the truth that is reflected on the water’s surface. In that way I’d consider the story morally ambiguous.

I like to think of it as a sort of “everyone’s a victim” sort of deal. It’s when a story delves into the question of what truly drives a person to act in the way that they do be they hero or villain. True moral ambiguity is when you get the audience to really question who the true villain of the story is and the answer to that question is a lot more complicated than you initially realize. Something I believe Fates pulls off relatively well if I’m being perfectly though it may not seem like that at first. You just gotta dig a little deeper. I mean hell the whole point of Fates’s narrative is that there is no such thing as black and white and that the answer is in the shade of grey between. I mean it’s in the freaking song lyrics for crying out loud not to mention all the blatent daoist symbolism present in the story. Seriously the fact that most people don’t see the blatent yin-yang and wuji symbolism in regards to Hoshido, Nohr, and Valla is beyond me. Like the story is not subtle about it

Starting to think a lot of you don’t understand what “moral gray” actually means