Wuzzy

1) I switched to Iron+ weapons once my units broke their training weapons honestly (or once they are able to double/not get doubled cconsistently with iron weapons). I use steel weapons for combat arts or to last hit enemies, I start switching to Silver around chapter 11. Killer+ weapons, Iron+, and Brave weapons are the best weapons imo. 2) I gave my speed carrots to my front line units, my Bow Knights relied on cooking Speed boosts and crits mainly so, Speed Carrots should go to your best front liner (that has good Speed to begin with, so most like your Wyvern Lord or Lord).

Japan idolizes the virgin, younger-looking (or just younger in general) female (which is probably why like Bernie/Lysithea are on top, though Lysithea is also a top tier unit so that could also be factored in). Dorothea is clearly not a virgin, and her surface level supports show her as a person looking for someone to sleep with. She's definitely more popular in the west than in Japan. Japan also isn't the most culturally diverse/accepting country imo, which explains why Dedue/Petra didn't make top 20, both of them are definitely more popular in the west as well.

Lol once again, I never said it was difficult to do a full-recruit. Like no kidding, monastery is pretty much the same (bar Byleth's seminar points are reduced a bit). I pretty much explicitly state that I do not find full recruits efficient, they are just flex points or for people who don't wanna take out other house students. Like if you think doing a full-recruit is efficient then that's your cup of tea and this is your tier list lol. Once again, MY opinion is that recruiting every single is possible and not hard but it's not efficient. Efficiency means maximizing productivity while trying to tone down waste effort, recruiting every single student is not efficient in this case because you aren't even going to use every single student which means wasted effort. Don't see how paralogue access is irrelevant when you're missing the fact that certain students are only recruited just for their paralogue, and not necessarily their performance. Cool, you did a full recruitment with Wyvern Rider Byleth but, why even bother stopping at WL requirements when you can go further? Ferdinand is a good unit but, there's literally other units that can do similar things without needing to waste AP on. Like why waste more money on cheap gifts when you can save money for better forges later on like? Do you reaaally think that people who do LTC/Efficiency w/e runs purposely play optional chapters if there is a lame/no reward at the end? Like I would do my best to avoid Night of Farewells or the Gaidens in FE11 personally but, I mean if you do believe everyone who wants to do an LTC/Efficiency run should play every single chapter (including optional ones) then that's your calling. Also, if you're gonna be defensive when someone challenges your criteria/opinions, then maybe this shouldn't be your project? IJS. Like I'm not saying you shouldn't defend your criteria and what you believe makes a great tier list, but you can't just get butthurt when someone challenges your tier list criterion lol. Also that quote wasn't even meant to challenge your criteria, I just said that most efficiency runs take turncount into consideration and that some units don't have paralogues that are worth doing.

The only benefit really is that her paralogue has 3 Golem enemies which give 3 Mythril apiece if you break all their shields, which is the ore used to repair Sacred Weapons (The Inexhaustible, Spear of Assal, etc.) and the Archanaea weapons. Seiros Shield is kinda ehhhhh, I really only do the paralogue for Mythril since Golems don't appear as enemies in BL/GD/SS (otherwise you gotta farm them from bird monsters).

mine would be Leif Ike Dimitri Claude Elincia Celica Finn Seteth Felix Python Catria L'arachel Felicia Robin Mae

Raphael's niche is mainly for Rally Str and his bulk (additional bulky units are nice to have in BE house, so you don't have to rely on Edelgard/Byleth/Ferdie, and Ferdie does take a bit to get going). Raphael isn't necessary in BL just because of Annette and Dedue being able to do what Raphael does but better since I wanted to make that distinction. Ferdinand is low not because his performance sucks but, mainly because his recruitment is out of the way (which is subjective in this thread and that's fine) since his B support is part 2 locked, and that there are other units that can be recruited an easier but perform similarly ish. But yeah, Ferdinand is a great unit, just I don't see him as a good cross-recruit. Getting C-Ranked armor is pretty easy but, Weight -3 isn't too significant for Byleth (never really felt Weight -3 made a difference on my Wyvern Lord Byleth due to Darting Blow, since I did do a full-recruit for BL house) which is why it is out of the way. Hmmm the Caspar argument is speaking to me, I'll definitely raise him since I quite like Rafail Gem (though I know many who don't) but, his inconvenient recruitment probs still put him at D-Rank for me at best.

Think if I did a recruitment tier list (with items/paralogues factored in, not ordered) mine would be like... S - Catherine, Lysithea, Lorenz, Sylvain A - Felix, Petra, Ingrid, Hilda (BL), Shamir B - Leonie, Ashe (SS/CF), Linhardt, Annette, Mercedes, Ignatz (SS/CF) C - Marianne, Hanneman, Manuela, Ignatz (BL), Raphael (SS/CF) D - Dorothea, Bernadetta, Alois, Cyril (BL/GD), Ashe (GD), Ferdinand, Catherine (SS), Hilda (SS), Caspar E - Raphael (BL), Cyril (SS) If performance is the only thing we're looking at then everything pretty stays the same except Ashe and Lorenz would fall to D.

I personally did not know that, and what is the restaurant menu you mentioned? He still does gain support points, just that the B support is locked out. Never tried to recruit him as soon as I believed he reached C+ support since I've always recruited him at C Armor/C Support.

Never really said it was difficult to recruit every single student, I'm just saying it's not efficient to do a full recruitment. Since full recruitment implies recruiting Ferdie/Caspar, and also recruiting units just to have and not use them. Full recruitment on Maddening just gives you flex points. Yeah it's not difficult to recruit Ferdinand (i've done it before) but, it's still again not efficient to recruit him. You could be spending those activity points to raise Armor (honestly, not even desirable to get Weight -3 if you go Falco/EO Byleth which are the most common Byleths on Maddening) when you could do them on meals, cooking, tournaments or tea time for charm. There are better uses to spend activity points on, and if you do plan on spending them on faculty, you might as well be spending those points on skills Byleth will use (considering this is a Maddening mode recruitment tier list after all). Also Ferdinand doesn't have a C+ support lol. Plus yeah, you do have to go out of your way to recruit Ferdinand if you have to waste points on a less than ideal skill since 9 activity points (amount is higher since Ferdinand's C+ support doesn't exist) is a pretty significant amount of time wasted, once again, because there are units who do similar things to him but have easier recruitment. You can get LoR early anyways by declining Rhea's offer after Miklan's chapter. Stat boosters is a fair argument but, there's also the flipside argument where it isn't worth doing since you can just RNG the greenhouse anyways.

Here's the thing, it's not efficient to recruit every single student, since this tier list follows Maddening mode (which means focusing on just a smaller amount of units and recruiting everyone means a lot of units will be neglected) and assumes efficiency. Also there's a contradictory point, you mention that why would you waste limited support resources early game, then you also mention that there's little reason to recruit everyone through supports? Yes, there is no opportunity cost to recruit every single student but, most paralogues aren't worth doing and they count towards global turncount (efficiency tier lists also do take turncount into consideration fyi) so there is a big reason not to do certain paralogues (Sylvain, Lysithea/Ferdinand, Ignatz/Raphael paralogues come to mind as ones that don't offer enough to be worth going out of your way for). Also, yeah there is a lot to gain from recruiting someone like Ashe or Lorenz early because you get more mileage off Thyrsus and Boots/Shoes of the Wind (misinterpretation), really the only student that's worth pilling all your support resources on early is Lysithea for Warp for any LTC runs. There literally is not much that separates this list from just a regular Unit Tier List that also focuses exclusively on performance, considering most unit tier lists also bring up recruitment as well (specifically with late-recruit students and KoS units). Lastly, if this is an efficiency tier list, it's not even worth going out of your way to recruit Ferdinand and Caspar because they lack a part 1 B support (Leonie's unlocks late but, she's better as a late recruit anyways). Also considering there are other cross-recruits/current house units that can do similar things to both of them.

Definitely 100% disagree on this notion, a recruitment tier list should 100% take this into consideration, considering quite a few units (SS route Hilda, Ashe, and Lorenz come to mind) are recruited either for their paralogue items or battalions. You might as well just call this a regular tier list (which only considers a unit's performance exclusively) and not a recruitment tier list, and there's already a thread for that. Also re: Hilda, her performance in SS route is pretty poor due to her late join time, which imo should also be taken into consideration with her ranking, in addition to her great performance in BL route.

oh i meant that Hubert promotes to Mage first to get Fiendish Blow, then at level 20 he gets certified for Dark Mage, and then Dark Bishop in the following week (since you can take 1 exam per week). Should've clarified

She can join Church Route (recruit option opens in Chapter 12) and can join the BL house around Chapter 4. She's only blocked in CF route.

Ferdinand is really high. He's a good recruitment but, it's also important to note that his B support is time-locked to Part 2 which means his recruitment is already harder and you have to invest into Byleth's armor rank to C (personally don't think Byleth needs Weight -3 if they go EO/Falcoknight/Warmaster, maybe it's beneficial as a WL). If you're talking efficiency, it's not worth it to recruit Ferdinand just because you're better off investing those valuable activity points into improving Byleth's skills that he will use, meals and cooking. Same goes with Caspar, though he isn't the best unit anyways so I'd bump him down to E (as a cross recruit). Both their Part 2 paralogue rewards or (Aegir Troops, Scythe of Sariel, etc.) aren't too worth it imo. Hanneman/Alois are free units albeit both join rather late, they can replace units that are falling behind (considering Maddening mode is the basis of this TL where it's harder to salvage stat screwed units) so I don't see them as E recruits. I'd bump them up one tier up (maybe 2 for Hanneman personally since he can still have valuable chip with Meteor/Thoron with his high Magic stat). Edit - I'd bump Ashe up, he is the only way you can get Boots early on in SS route (or at all in CF route) since Part 1 paralogues only require 1 of the 2 units to unlock them. Same with Lorenz being bumped up to B tier, he unlocks Thyrsus which a lot of LTC runs use and go out of their way to do since his paralogue only needs 1 turn to complete. Sylvain bumped up since he's free if you're female Byleth, nets you early Lance of Ruin, solid early personal (especially in waifu houses of GD/BE), and early bullion means more training weapons/bows Hilda bumped down imo due to her incredibly late join time in Church route but still a great recruit for BL house

Noticing a lot of arguments for Lysithea's top tier placement (Hard and Normal mode efficiency/LTC tier lists) are misinformed. Lysithea is top tier in Hard/Normal mode because of her earliest access to Warp, while also being the best Warp user due to her overkill Magic growth/stat. She isn't top tier because she can 1 shot the DK with Dark Spikes, which is like the main argument I see about her viability. Even then you don't even need to kill the DK, and by the time he's a required kill literally any Lance user/Brave Weapons/Killer+ Weapons/High Speed units can take on the DK with ease (read what Silly said above). Sure she is one of the easiest method to deal with DK but, it doesn't really matter when DK isn't even required the first 3 times you see him (Dark Seal isn't even worth the effort, and Hubert is better going off Mage -> Dark Bishop so you don't need the early Dark Seals anyways), and by the time he's required in the last 2-3 times your units will be able to deal with him. Also literally anyone can use Thrysus, they just don't get Pavise and/or take -10 dmg from lack of a crest. She's one of the best users of Thyrsus but it's not exclusively hers, it'll be a different story if Thyrsus was a personal item but it isn't. Those traits are definitely bonuses but, they aren't the ONLY reason why she's top tier. You can scroll through the descriptions of Lysithea within this subforum and guaranteed 70-80% of the comments will say she's top tier because she can 1 shot DK and/or can use Thyrsus. /rantover

FE4 Chapter 1 (specifically the forest portion where you recruit Jamke) - You spend like 50 turns just moving your units 1 square at a time and you have to make sure Aideen stays alive and not get dumpstered on in order to recruit Jamke FE5 Chapter 18 (if you want Xavier) - Recruiting Xavier is a big pain in the ass, also tried to get the Member's Card which is not worth it at all by saving/capturing all the Leonster soldiers FE7 Chapter 29 Hector Mode - Sleep/Silence/Berserk staff spam is always fun, doesn't help that the Valkyries are quite potent units since they have a randomly high amount of speed FE8 Chapter 11 Ephriam's Route - Ghost ship map is not fun (unless you just deploy Duessel/Ephraim/Vanessa/Seth), having to protect your squishies from Gargoyles and Evil Eyes is annoying, also trying to keep L'Arachel alive is also pretty annoying too FE9 Chapter 21 - Sleep staff spam again FE9 Chapter 25 - Boulder map is fun, also nice to have to deal with Ballistas and an onslaught of Wyvern Lords/Riders as well with your horse unit's move cut in half FE9/10 Great Bridge Chapter - Potholes that the game don't tell you where they are located (played this without a guide so that was fun). Also in FE10 there's always that one Sage or Bishop that literally places a Shine Barrier in the chokepoint surrounded by potholes which is also annoying FE10 Chapter 3-6 - Fog of War map with enemy Laguz as the main enemies, fun fun especially with your noob brigade squad (trying to keep anyone not named Zihark/Nolan/Jill/Sothe is a feat in itself, considering any Hawk/Raven/Tiger that gets close will take out the other units) FE12 Chapter 3 - Recruiting Bord/Julian/Matthis takes forever and you have to drag Marth around the map, bonus points in harder difficulties where you accidentally aggro the Dracoknights on the mountain area FE15 Chapter 25 Revelations - Elevator map is the worst designed map in Fates (and there are a lot but, this takes the cake for me) FE17 Chapter 13-16 AM/VW/SS routes - The game loves these maps so much they put them on every single route, without changing anything

How I feel about this game, is how I feel about Path of Radiance, solid cast but the gameplay leaves a lot to be desired. 3H has my favorite cast in the series so far, the characters feel like they have a purpose in this game (not like the filler characters like Nyx, Hayato, Orochi in Fates) and are pretty fleshed out for the most part. However gameplay wise... my main problems are that Class imbalance - Wyvern Lords have similar perks to Falcoknights (having similar Speed, Avoid through Alert Stance and Avoid +10, and Triangle Attack) but with a better weapon and tankiness which makes them absurdly broken. Bow Knights having really high range and close counter is also pretty op. It's unfortunate that a game that focuses on customization and reclassing your units, decides which units are top tier based on how fast they can reach Wyvern Lord or Bow Knight (and how they fare as those classes). Funny enough, like PoR the game is basically mounted emblem + 1 mage. Class progression - Class progression is awkward for Dark Knights, Falcoknights, and Great Knights to name a few. There's no advanced mage mounted class to ease the training of riding for Dark Knights, and there's no advanced pegasus knight class which will make the transition into Falcoknight easier. Harder difficulties - It's honestly kind of lazy to make modes difficult by either absurdly inflating stats and/or enemy count. There are other means of making difficulty modes such as improving AI or enemy position (maybe even change the means of getting to objectives). Turtling is pretty much the way to go in Maddening and you don't really get punished by doing so (compared to Fe11/12 that do punish turtling). Also having 8-12 Divine Pulse charges also does trivialize the difficulty as well (incoming jUst dOnT uSe iT tHeN comments) Similar maps - I'd rather not play the Myrrdin map, chasing daybreak, alliel, etc. maps 3-4 times (at least CF route changes that Myrrdin map dynamic but, it's still more or less the same). The maps being repeated sooooo many times is unfortunate since it makes the routes less unique. I'd be fine with it if the premise of the chapters were different (E.G. GD route requests reinforcements from Judith, SS route goes to Alliel for something else) but it's not. can't think of anything else atm

Crimson Flower is by far the hardest, yes it's the shortest but having less chapters means the difficulty spikes a lot more in between to make up for the lack of chapters. Chapter 13, 14, 17 and 18 are really difficult chapters (moreso 13, 14 and 18 imo with Bow Knight/Wyvern Lord spam in the first 2, and FalconKnight/Golem spam in the latter). Also doesn't help that Byleth and Edelgard are your only true tanks for the majority of the game until Ferdinand, Caspar (not worth using imo due to low starting speed and has mediocre bulk growths) and Petra (when dodge tanking becomes more reliable) get online, and even then, Edelgard needs to use an Iron Sword for the majority of the early game for more AS. Less paralogues in CF route (you don't have access to Hilda/Cyril, Lysithea/Ferdinand, Rhea, Mercedes/Caspar paralogues) which means less exp overall since paralogues follow chapter exp, not aux battle exp. Silver Snow also has the disadvantage because you don't have a lord character to invest in, which makes it harder but still not as challenging as CF. Azure Moon is the easiest, said it many times but to recap... Easiest early game (Dedue, Annette's Rally, Dimitri w/ Tempest Lance and Felix), access to good exclusive battalions (Kingdom Cavalry, BL Dancers, Kingdom Archers, Royal Guard, etc.), and the highest amount of paralogues for more exp and battalions (Goneril Valkyries and Fraldarius Soldiers come to mind). Also quite easy to cheese a few maps as well (Chapter 18, 19, 21 come to mind). Verdant Wind is also pretty easy with automatic Lysithea and a lot of solid Bow users for chip but, the early game is a lot more challenging compared to BL squad.

Petra, assumed she would be like Rinkah 2.0 (aka tribalist with an edgy, aloof attitude that wants to be left alone 24/7) and I did not like Rinkah as a character because that's all she did in her supports. Was pleasantly surprised when she was not like that at all, in fact she's quite the opposite.

I quite like Hilda/Cyril's paralogue, both story and gameplay wise it's pretty interesting and it shows you a decent amount about the Almyrans and why they keep invading Fodlan. Also interesting to see Cyril's relationship with Almyra and a bit on his life in the Goneril house. Leonie and Linhardt is also pretty interesting story wise but kind of hellish gameplay wise honestly.

BL route has the "easiest" (comparatively) time in Maddening, while BE have the hardest time (specifically CF route) In addition to the Rally point, could also add a subpoint about debuffing. Characters that have the earliest access to debuffs include Lysithea (Swarm -5 Spd) and Hubert (Mire, -5 Def). Though there are other units with Seal Stat abilities like Hilda/Ferdinand (Seal Spd) and Ignatz (Seal Str) which can be obtained in 2-3 instruct sessions, and they can proc them with Bows/Ranged Weapons like Hand Axe / Javelin. Also combat arts like Waning Shot (-5 Str) and Break Shot (-5 Def) that usually appear with C+ Bows on certain units (I believe Ignatz and Leonie receive one of the 2, and Mercedes unlocks Waning Shot through her Budding Talent if that's desirable). Encloser and in rarer cases Ward Arrow also have their uses but, they are locked behind A ranked bows for the units that get them. For the recruiting portion, in addition to Archers having weaker growths and benefiting from early recruitment since their Chapter 23 stats aren't very impressive... All the Mages benefit from an earlier recruitment just because you want them to unlock their good Reason/Faith Spells ASAP (Dorothea's Meteor/Physic, Lysithea Dark Spikes/Warp, Linhardt Warp, etc.) since they usually end up at like C/C+/B Rank Reason/Faith (usually, depends on what rank they start) in Chapter 12. Female Byleth is generally better than Male Byleth due to access to Pegasus Knight for early flight utility (and an easier transition to Wyvern Lord/Falconknight so you can train that Flight rank early on) and, it allows you to automatically recruit Sylvain to have an earlier access to the Lance of Ruin (if you deny Rhea after Miklan's chapter) which is another bonus. Also the extra Bullion Sylvain comes with doesn't hurt early on considering you will be spending quite a lot of money on training weapons / bows. Also this is a pretty big point but, I feel that Maddening mode doesn't really penalize you for going slow early on due to lack of reinforcements (Chapter 5 and Ingrid/Dorothea's Paralogue are obviously exceptions) and that enemies generally won't budge unless you deliberately aggro them/get in their range. Unless you're goal is to LTC, don't bother with worrying about your turncount and just take chapters slowly since the hardest chapters in Maddening are the first 4-5 ones (until Chapter 13, thieves chapter). Once reinforcements are a big thing in Part 2, your team should generally be able to handle them decently well for the most part. Adding on to the Gambit point, utility gambits, specifically Impregnable Wall and Retribution (obviously Stride is very useful as well) are also very handy and don't require too much effort to get since they need D Auth (BL route has the Kingdom Archers battalion which gives Retribution at D Auth, BE/GD houses need to wait until A Auth, GD House needs C Auth for Impregnable Wall too)

In addition to everything else that has been said... Black Eagles has a more difficult time in Maddening, specifically Crimson Flower route due to the limited access to resources. Less available units (no Catherine, Hilda, Seteth or Flayn), less paralogues (paralogues give Chapter exp, as opposed to aux battle exp), and an incredibly steep level curve in Part 2 due to CF route having less chapters overall. Black Eagles also don't have a reliable dedicated tank besides Edelgard and Byleth (Ferdinand needs time, Petra relies on dodging usually and can't take more than 1-2 hits, Caspar needs a lot more time than Ferdie due to low base Speed and mediocre bulk growths). Female Byleth > Male Byleth because she can go Pegasus Knight for early flying utility, and can transition easily to Wyvern Lord/FalconKnight Don't underestimate Rallies, rallies are incredibly useful in this game, especially early on. Characters with access to good Rallies early on include Annette (Str/Spd), Ignatz (Spd), Raphael (Str), Hubert (Magic), and Ingrid (Magic) are good. Situational Rallies like Dorothea's Rally Charm are also pretty useful later in the game as well. Debuffing arts/spells are also good. Spells like Mire and Swarm are very useful early, while arts like Break/Waning Shot are also useful but come a bit later. Seal stat abilities from units like Hilda, Ferdie, and Ignatz are also handy. Take advantage of late recruiting students so you can focus on just a handful of units early on, and then recruit students late since they'll join with pretty solid stats. Students that benefit from late recruitment include Leonie, Petra, and Ingrid. Training weapons are better than Iron weapons in most cases early on. The extra AS training weapons give > extra might iron weapons give, especially with jacked up enemy speed stats in the early chapters. Give every physical unit a bow, even those with Bow banes like Sylvain. Every unit really needs to have access to some sort of range chip to make the early chapters a lot more manageable. Tea time is beneficial because of more Charm, if you have leftover Activity Points, use them on Tea Times for your main units Maddening mode is a lot more manageable past Chapter 4/5 and gets "easier". The only chapters you need to watch out for is Chapter 12/13 (Thieves chapter) and the final chapter of each route. Hanneman is honestly better in Maddening than most people give him credit for, considering he's regarded as a "worse" Dorothea by a lot of people. He joins with pretty good bases for his level despite his late join time and has access to a very solid Reason pool. Lacks utility and speed obviously but, he makes up for it by having more fire power. Also since he has a crest, he can wield Thyrsus without the negative effects of it which is nice.

That's partly true but he also wants to be a crest scholar to help guide/work with Byleth and studying the Crest of Flames is probably a priority for him, Linhardt also confesses he loves Male Byleth anyways and talks about retiring together so there's a good amount of romance involved at least. Side note, choosing 2 non-widowed, married men with children (Alois says he has a wife and child in his monastery dialogue during the ball) for gay support options feels haphazard. Like if you're gonna go through all this trouble to promote diversity, at least do it right. (Also kinda sus they chose the top 2 most popular females and one of the more popular non-BE females for lesbian supports, and gave gay supports 2 married men as options). Sothis and Rhea make sense but are also kinda weird.

I believe so, the data miner who did all the Maddening mode stuff said they got the title screen on Maddening Casual

If you can survive the first 4 (maybe 5, I didn't find Miklan's chapter too difficult but, I know quite a few people who struggled in that chapter), then it really does get easier (moreso once you unlock saint statues if that's your forte). The only other chapters that are tricky is Chapter 12/13 (killing thieves chapter) and the final chapter. Also training weapons, swords, and bows are saving graces early on. You need other units to poke with Bows, and you need training weapons/swords for more AS Really depends if you have the patience since I've spent like 20+ turns in the early chapters since you move so slowly (and also needed to reset multiple times), I'd go NG+ Maddening or Casual Maddening if you aren't sure, then move on to Classic Maddening if you want more of a challenge.