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samthedigital

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  1. It doesn't cut their movements indoors. If you do a quick youtube search of a speedrun or something you can confirm it for yourself. I'd provide a video myself if I was sure that it didn't mess with the formatting, but it shouldn't really matter. PoR is really not favorable to unmounted units. It's easy enough of a game that any character can kill enemies, but mounted units are far superior to just about every other unit in the game. Magic units have their place, but otherwise mounted units have some of the best combat stats and a broken form of canto. It doesn't help that Paladin is the only class with a good Occult skill besides Ike's. The only thing that unmounted units have going for them is that they don't need to see that much combat to be functional combat units because of bonus experience.
  2. If we don't nerf mounted units in any way it's tough to balance unmounted units. Some flying units are weak defensively, but not all are, and they're the kinds of units that are worth investing into heavily anyway if they don't already have good combat to begin with. Once a unit reaches a certain threshold more stats don't really matter, so even if we give unmounted units better stats it doesn't fix the issue. It doesn't help that Paladins generally have good control of the weapon triangle on top of everything else. Thracia did it pretty well. They have enough maps where mounted units are really strong, and they are effectively neutered indoors. Giving more enemies anti mount weapons doesn't really fix the issue (too many and mounted units don't get used for combat, and without enough of them it becomes a player phase issue to solve rather than being much of a real nerf), and it would require intricate map design and specific mechanics to accomodate unmounted units while not nerfing mounted units.
  3. It's not that they're bad because of how 'difficult' it is to train them. They're bad because it's not very efficient to train them. Ross is a bit of an exception because he does join early and has a specific niche, but he's not amazing. If you want you can look at their average stats and compare them to similar characters by the way; you'll find that their stats aren't that impressive.
  4. If you're playing on Maddening this is largely going to be true. Otherwise the enemies aren't really threatening enough most of the time. It's also important to note that 3 Houses can promote many different kinds of viable builds and playstyles. The older games are a lot more simple in that way; turn counts mattered more, and a unit didn't change a whole lot from where they started to where they ended up.
  5. FE9 is a bit of a special case to be fair. Growth units in that game are at a significant advantage over every other Fire Emblem game because of the bonus exp mechanics. Eliwood is going to compare at least somewhat more favorably to units that aren't going to be good from the get-go.
  6. I haven't played HNM in a long time, but I'd imagine that Eliwood would have more opportunites to level efficiently in HNM. That is also true of other characters to be sure, but HNM Eliwood should be better than HHM Eliwood.
  7. The problem Eliwood has is that his stats need to be within a certain threshold for him to perform well, and there's a limited amount of time for him to gain those stats before we get a plethora of other units that have the stats, movement, or weapons to do whatever he can do better. If he does grow well initially that might not be true; Eliwood can snowball into a decent unit, but if it takes effort to train him his utility doesn't outweigh the time it takes to train him.
  8. I would suggest keeping a handful of door keys around as they are needed for several chapters. If you do that and swap between saves every chapter you should be able to avoid softlocking anywhere. Otherwise just keep the typical Fire Emblem related things in mind and you should be fine.
  9. If you're trying to play efficiently you don't try to optimize anything else, and oftentimes real time and LTC do intersect. Pure LTC is not very efficient in general though; the only reason to bring it up is to show that Ike can still be shoved bonus exp without any real worry. Edit: The other problem is that "efficiency runs" don't exist. Generally speaking people aren't as interested in that sort of thing, so there are no concrete videos or examples of such a run. I don't understand the fascination people have arguing about it because people just don't play with that in mind, and the casual player is not going to say that X character is good because they save Y turns in a map on average. They say that the character is good because they help finish a map consistently. You can alternatively just use the Ward staff to train her, and healing isn't incredibly useful. It's definitely not as good as other FE games anyway. Read my post earlier about it. The point is that he can be trained without costing very much when playing at maximum efficiency. In most defend maps the amount of useful units is 1. In an escape map generally speaking it's two. It does not take maximum deployment slots to accomplish most tasks in this game. I would guess that Lord+Jill/Marcia, 2 Cavaliers, potentially a mage are enough, and even then it could be done with less. That's 6 units that need help with bonus exp. As I said earlier I don't really need numbers. I don't really need to waste my time when evidence suggests that we don't need it. I would also like to point out that you've completely ignored any other lord, and this is what we've been arguing about in the first place. This is true in FE6, but there are so many chapters where Lyn and Eliwood are not force deployed in HHM (besides the fact that they aren't really needed for anything) that it's not worth training them. I'd also argue that in FE8 it's simpler to just not train Eirika so that she never faces chances of death since she can not die at all costs, and her defenses are shaky. Oh, as for this point. Defensively mages are bad, and they don't have high movement. Mounted units do not have damage problems most of the time, so targeting weaker defenses isn't that strong of a point. Mages are mostly used for Rescue and long range magic, and I would guess that they don't see that much combat outside of that (Actually, interestingly enough Soren is the most used combat unit, but Ike is still comfortably top 7 in the run I am looking at... He does abuse level ups and such though, so as with you I'm going to question the reliability of a mage surviving EP and getting that much combat somewhat.). More to the point though Ike is still trained in most of those LTC runs, and arguing that Ena can do it too is not really an argument given that most runs just feed experience to Ike and call it a day. You can't say that Ena exists and therefor Ike is worthless; it doesn't work that way.
  10. Right, because a 0% growths LTC is a good indicator of how well growths units do. A speedrun tries to finish the game as quickly as possible, so it's going to be a good test of how to play efficiently. If you bother to look there are LTCs that also get Ike to 10 or so promoted on Maniac mode, and that difficulty actually has limited resources especially because money is also limited. Ironman runs give Ike bxp too because it's far easier to give Ike bonus experience than the alternative. On the other hand FE7-8 lords largely stay at their base level in their own games. We often don't need to train 10 units to play the game efficiently. It also doesn't help that there aren't that many mounted units to pass bonus experience around. In the end this doesn't really matter though. You can try and provide evidence why Ike shouldn't be that useful, but actual gameplay goes against it. edit: I also want to bring up forges again because they matter in this discussion too; we've been talking about bonus experience exclusively. I was alluding to them when talking about money in the Japanese version. On the English version we can forge every single chapter and still have a lot of money left at the end of the game. It's basically impossible to run out of forged weapons if we play reasonably quickly, and that's while wasting a bunch of forges on weak enemies. I'm going to assume you haven't watched a speedrun. Otherwise reroute it and prove to me that Ena is faster, but it still doesn't change that Ike would be likely nearly as efficient as Ena while also being servicable throughout the game; it makes the whole process easier so that he doesn't die. Mist and the mages aren't very good units. Why would you even mention them? We also don't need 10 units to play through the game quickly. It's possible to get Jill and Marcia to promotion instantly while still giving Ike sufficient bxp. We can even level Oscar and Kieran and whatever crappy early game unit we want to along with Ike. Not all units are created equal, and having 7 mounts is not going to be that different from having 6. There's also a lot of time to actually give Ike bxp, and we don't have that opportunity in the GBA Fire Emblems. I also wanted to get an edit in for this point. Keeping all Laguz alive in chapter 15 isn't very difficult even while getting Stephan and such. The nice thing about that and having a good strategy for chapter 10 is that after we find a strategy it can be done fairly consistently every single time without having to think about it. My strategy for chapter 10 does not involve all NPC units escaping granted (they don't need to for recruitment), but it's good enough. edit: I should probably summarize the actual point of this whole thing. You could potentially find a run that clears the game really quickly and doesn't train Ike, but the fact of the matter is that fast runs also exist that do level Ike (I'm not sure where you're coming from when you say that we get a lot more out of training another character over Ike, you really need specific gameplay examples than just posting numbers. Perhaps you could show me an example of where having every single mounted unit deployed and trained saves time over having a few less.), so as I stated earlier those resources aren't actually as important as you think they are. If this is the case at near optimal play it only goes in Ike's favor when playing more casually since there will be more time for him to get kills. FE9 is an incredibly generous game for any unit with decent combat potential casually because of bonus exp. Even if it was giving Ike preferential treatment the cost is literally just the time it takes to give him a bunch of bexp. The cost of making Eliwood good for example is finding a lot of enemies for him to kill, and he is stuck in a game where a lot of enemies deal enough damage to him that he needs to be careful to not die. Anyway, if you want to talk about this further maybe we should open a thread on the PoR forums or something? It's probably a bad idea to go on too much with this here given that this is not that topical.
  11. Yeah, this just isn't true, and if you read my edit you can look at an actual example instead of using assumptions. The easiest way to explain why you're wrong though is to consider what say 8 Ike levels nets us if we distrobute it among other non Ike units. It's probably about 1k bxp which is maybe 3 levels for a single promoted unit or not even a level for several. It doesn't mean very much. The difference is that it costs time and efficiency in other games and not in FE9. As I said before your assumption that resources are too limited in FE9 is just flat out wrong. There's just no other way to put it. If you're not willing to accept that then there really isn't any point to the discussion; you're going to have to show me some evidence that the extra experience matters in FE9 if you want me to change my mind, and I doubt you have any.
  12. It's possible to invest heavily into mounted units and still feed bonus experience to Ike. I'm not sure why you're under the assumption that the two are mutually exclusive. We don't need to slow the pace down or suffer for Ike to be a competent unit. This doesn't work for the other games because you can't reasonably assume these things when it might just be better to not train the lords or have them babied to the throne. (Edit) It doesn't help that Eliwood promotes too late in his story and doesn't do those things in Hector's story. Eliwood isn't that durable either. I'm not sure if it's the quality of enemies or the fact that he is not able to get the same kind of treatment that Ike gets for free, but he definitely has durability issues in many different chapters. HHM is a far different beast compared to FE9 HM. I don't know FE8 that well, but I'm going to assume that Eirika's defenses are low enough that she isn't a reliable frontline unit even if she wanted to be. Double edit: If you're interested in examples you can look at the respective speedruns of the games. They are generally done on the easier difficulties, but it's not going to be terribly different on hard mode. They will probably do a better job of showing you than my wall of text trying to explain it to you. If you can't be bothered then I'll just note that Ike gets to 20/15 or so whereas the FE7/8 lords are hardly above their base level at the end of the run.
  13. You either misinterpreted what I said or I did not say it clearly. I was referring to experience and not in terms of catching up to enemies. The game hands us so many resources that we can reasonably assume that Ike will be on level with some sort of forge most of the time. The lords in FE6-FE8 do not have this luxury. You're also simplifying this a little too much. There are certainly situations where Ike is a servicable unit. He has all game to contribute. It can be reasonably assumed that he is going to be fighting some enemies given that he sometimes needs to get to the boss to seize, recruit a character here and there, or he can clear a secondary objective where movement isn't as important.
  14. Ike has access to forges and bonus experience. The other important thing to consider is that it takes time to get supports in the GBA FE games compared to FE9. You don't want to look at stats in a vacuum because it doesn't really show us anything important. If we spam maps with Marcus/Seth or whatever the lords just don't have any time to catch up either; Ike doesn't have that problem.
  15. It really depends on what you're trying to do. In an LTC context for example Lysithea needs all of the resources she can get to have a high warp range, and consequently there isn't any room to build any other magic users for combat. In a speedrunning context Lysithea is not that useful (I am aware that she is useful in some categories, but she isn't a combat unit), so she could be considered to be overrated in that context, but people don't generally consider this when talking about overrated characters and the like. Otherwise it's going to depend on what the individual player wants more in a unit. That logic doesn't lead us anywhere. Even if she was only good because of Thyrsus we can break down any character that way.
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