Mjolnir

Ohh, my apologies! I totally missed what you were trying to communicate. My bad. After you pointed it out, yes, I see the 9 damage now. Hm, do we know if this is a bug on all monsters or is this special to that one in that paralogue? I'll be interested to try it myself the next time I fight a monster. This would be very unfortunate if it's widespread, since Poison Strike should be all rights be at its strongest in monster situations. Is it maybe glitching in part because he did break one of the bars? Like would the result have been the same on that bar if he had not broken it? This does need further testing. That said, I would not be surprised if the company that shipped this game with glitched out adjutant mechanics (a pretty big deal) would have also shipped it with something like this and never bothered to fix it. :/ Thanks for bringing it to light!

Wow, what an amazing write up! Thank you for sharing your insights. You've made me rethink perhaps putting shields instead of rings on grapplers. I typically like to keep them light and evasive instead of layering PRT but maybe the shield strat makes sense in some contexts. Also a great tip on the minibow, tbh I've just been overlooking them since my newb days and never revisited them but what you say makes total sense. I can also see your point on the range weapons like hand axe and javelin perhaps not being worth a slot on a physical unit, but I have found that I encounter some instances where I'll get a kill at the edge of a unit's movement with a range whereas I wouldn't be able to if they didn't have one. But I won't say that that's necessarily optimal... You may be right, it may not be; especially since, granted, the situations where they are truly useful are somewhat rare. I guess one other way I use them are to lead with a ranged attack so as not to risk a counter, then clean up with a heavier hitting unit. That way neither takes damage. The rest of what you described is basically exactly what I do (including the forgetting to repair weapons before battle and having to restart frequently because of it 😉 ) "Mini convoys" is a great way to describe the function of mages! I agree with that a lot, and should have added in my OP that I will often keep a spare chest key on them too. Oh and sometimes anti toxins if there will be poison on the map. And in FoW they carry the torches (and some other units might get one as well, but I keep extras on the mages just in case). My Byleth also often end up quite wonky since, yeah, their inventory is the whole of the convoy! Byleth is the only character of mine that sometimes ends up with free slots in their inventory since they can just reach in and get whatever they want at will so there's no need to keep a full inventory. I'm curious as to whether you always run bows on all of your Non-Sniper, non-Grappler physicals. I do this sometimes, but only with units that have a proficiency in bows like Cyril or Petra. Do you think it's worth it to do it for a unit like, say, Ferdinand?

Huh, that's the first I'm hearing of this / noticing it. That's very unfortunate and does bump PS down in terms of helpfulness if true. However, I don't see evidence of that in either video you linked. The first one doesn't even really show Lorenz doing PS (maybe your timestamp is wrong?) and even if it did, like you say the boss' ability could account for the damage reduction. In the second one the guy is joking about "get that 9, get that 9!" (from poison strike) but then Lorenz hits for 17 damage when the enemy only has 15hp left so PS doesn't activate at all. I haven't been able to play for a few days so I'm still at the stage of the game where PS should be doing 9 lol, so I can't speak from recent experience as to whether or not it's glitched (my recall from past playthroughs is that it worked as advertised, but I took a break for a while so those memories are not fresh). I think those two (Mangs and Chaz) are a more famous for being more hilarious than methodical in their FE play, especially Chaz. I think if it were a Mekkah video explaining why Poison Strike is glitched I'd take it at face value, but since I didn't see it happen (because he just destroyed the last health bar w/o poison strike activating) I feel like the jury is still out. 😉 ETA: I did just test it on an enemy with 60 total hp, and Poison Strike did 12 damage. This is in line with my (admittedly not super clear) memories of running Lorenz w/ poison strike in late game; from what I recall it works correctly. Excellent point! It has not been mentioned AFAIK, so thank you for bringing that up. I do think that ally boosts should be taken into consideration. Supports should be a part of optimal play. Agreed, this topic was made by an OP who wanted help with his game it seems, not one who was interested in theory. It doesn't have parameters so it does make it harder to get a good list going. Cool, it would be great if you made the thread! But maybe consider making a general one, with a request for tier lists for all four routes, including an averaged overall tier list would perhaps be more useful just so it's all in one spot. Or maybe it's more useful to make them for each route? Hm.

I'll describe my strategy for this but I'm mostly very curious to see what others do, so don't feel like you need to read before posting your own method! For reference I'm talking about Maddening NG, but feel free to discuss other difficulties if you like. In the early game options are a bit limited and the strategy is bit different than late game. In the early game on my physical attackers I carry: Light, accurate weapon (training/iron) Combat art weapon (steel) Ranged weapon (bow, hand axe, javelin, etc.) Secondary weapon type that I'd want to train the unit in for a later class change (for example, a sword on a unit that will later become a peg knight) Healing item or maybe even two (vulnerary in most cases, concoction if available) Maybe an extra from any category above if available Mages tend to hold less stuff in the early game. On mages: A light, accurate 1 range weapon (usually iron for them, in the wep type they prefer) Maybe a bow if available (in case they run out of magic (only applies to the first few chapters)) The rest is healing items if available Of course, sometimes you don't have enough items to fill all six slots in the early game, but if you do that's what it looks like. Mid game to late game the strategy shifts. After getting at least one ranged healer and 1-2 pinch hit healers (attack mages/the dancer with spells like Heal, Recover, Physic, or Fortify in their arsenal) I find it a waste of an item slot in most instances to carry healing items on physical attackers. This is an average physical attacker loadout: Light, accurate weapon (training + (although I find they drop off mid game), iron+ or silver+) Killer weapon+, Wo Dao+, Cursed Aiyisha Sword+ Combat art weapon (steel+ or often I just use same silver+ as the light weapon for CAs to save space) Ranged option (bow, short spear, short axe, Levin Sword+, Bolt Axe+, etc.) Utility weapon (brave, horse/armorslayers, Rapier, etc.) a weapon of some other type other than the main one as to be able to counter x-breaker skills (usually something like a lance due to many advanced/master classes requiring lance, but ofc a sword or axe on a lance user) A Relic or Sacred Weapon (often not carried at all in non-threatening battles, but usually replaces utility in relatively more difficult battles) On very rare occasions healing items like concoctions / elixirs (only in difficult chapters like VW 13, or in situations where I might want to send a flier off on a solo mission out of physic range) Ring, gem, or in very rare cases a shield (imo most shields are too heavy and are likely to push most units under the "getting doubled" spd threshold in Maddening NG so don't make sense to use) Obviously this will be juggled a bit map to map. Primarily magical loadout: If the unit has a magical combat art (Soulblade, Frozen Lance, etc) then a few weapons to use that art with. Maybe Bolt Axe+ or Levin Sword+, or an attack weapon Relic in rare cases. Magic Staff, Thrysus, Caduceus, Heal Staff depending on the unit, maybe sometimes another accessory like the March Ring in certain circumstances Healing Items. Mages are my heal bags, they're loaded with Vulnerarys, Concoctions and later Elixers. Along with access to the convoy via Byleth, IF on the very very rare occasion that something goes unexpectedly wrong and there's not enough healing power on the board in the form of spells usually any unit has access to trading a weapon in their loadout for a healing item from a Mage if need be. I find trading weps / relics / staffs / etc. too annoying and a buzzkill to consistently do it, even though I acknowledge that it is probably the superior style of play technically speaking. I've never had trouble getting through maps in ways that are satisfying to me without trading, though. But if I were to try a Low Turn Count run, then I would certainly do it because you can get better results if you do. So that is pretty much how I handle my inventory! I am very curious to hear how others manage theirs (again esp. re: Maddening NG but other difficulties are fine to discuss as well). FWIW this post was prompted by a discussion in the Tier List thread, wherein one person basically managed theirs in precisely the same way as mine and another had a totally different strat. I wondered how many different strats are out there and what the dominant one might be, and it was a bit off topic for that thread so I made this one. 🙂

Hm, you do make some good points there. On reflection, I think you are correct and it is probably most efficient to trade them between around as you describe (I've seen that behavior in Low Turn Count videos, although I can never quite be bothered to do it myself!). So in truly optimal play, yes, they are traded between units who need them. However, if they are being traded they're still being used by Lorenz and Lysithea and therefore it does seem like they should factor in their ratings since they do both have easy access to +1 or +2 range in the form of those relics, which both arrive fairly early in the game.

Yeah, I really disagree on the weapon loadout. I use basically the same exact loadout strat as AxelVDP does, so I guess just refer to that post for how I think it ideally works. I would have figured everyone did, but that's probably a discussion for a dedicated topic since it's a bit off topic for a tier list. I may ask though since now I'm curious: one person thinks the way I do it is wrong and another does it pretty much exactly the same as I do. While it is true that horse canto is < flier canto (this is Flier emblem after all), it's still better than lower move + no canto in most situations.Speed is not super important for mages in Maddening NG, as others have explained. Maybe in Hard mode or something you would have a point. Holy Knight is not recommended since most units prefer to attack with Reason rather than Faith, ergo White Tomefaire < Black Tomefaire. He does not require many points at all to pass the dancing test. Around that time, he'll have around 8cha base. His birthday is on 7th of the Red Wolf Moon (11th month) and the dancing contest is the month after that. So that's one free tea time and usually +1cha unless you get unlucky or mess up. So that's 8 + 1 + 5 = 14 already enough to qualify most times, but to be safe 2 more points should be added. Those can come from Golden Apples (which drop very often from DLC yellow aux battles) or from 2 more tea times. 2 activity points in the grand scheme is nothing, especially with the way I tend to play I often end up in mid game with many extras (after gifts become available and Byleth is comfortable in their skill levels). My Byleths tend to end up with S or S+ in their favored skills anyway, so feeding one or two measly action points for the huge long term benefit of having a Dancer with warp and decent cha is very worth it imo. I'm glad I'm not the only one ITT who isn't remotely threatened by the Death Knight. It's a fun challenge, nothing more. Unless you're playing Iron Man, if you are playing anywhere near optimally it's not an issue at all. This is precisely how I manage my inventory! Except ofc add in Relics (which I shuffle in and out depending on how important / difficult the battle will be). It seems super wasteful to keep healing items in a physical attacker's inventory in most instances (with rare exceptions like ch. 13 VW), since a physical attacker healing themselves to me means I've messed up my strat somehow. Usually minimal damage should be incurred, and most maps save very difficult ones only call for one long range healer. If an emergency occurs and a healing item is needed, in most cases ime a mage carrying Elixers, Concoctions, and Vulneraries (and perhaps also anti-toxins if the map has poison) is near enough to go trade for one and heal. I also completely agree re: speed in Maddening, and about the assessment of cavalry vs. infantry and DK being a great class. I basically agree with all of this (well the parts I'd thought a bit about anyway, the analysis re: Hanneman was new to me (why is he so forgettable, him? I think it's part down to when he arrives perhaps?) so thank you for that). One thing I do think should be factored into these discussions are range boosting relics, however. I think that Thyrsus elevates Lysithea from very good to "DELETE". I always give that to her, to me that's "her" relic. However, if he's in play Lorenz gets Caduces since it helps a LOT with his being locked to 2range spells by default. It is very true he wants to rush for Black Magic +1 on top of that, and when that does come in he's even more deadly. I just really think Poison Strike is super useful. One thing I really love it for is feeding kills to new recruits, or those who have fallen a bit behind since you can very easily control the hp in Maddening NG to fall in the 1-9 range for any unit to sweep in and mop up. Being able to get something down that far is still useful generally, imo. I agree that it gets more and more useful as the game goes on and enemy hp totals skyrocket. Also, the higher the hp something has the more likely it will take several units to kill, and the more likely Poison Strike can make the difference between getting that kill in one turn, or face an enemy phase against a powerful high hp enemy.

Did you make a couple of typos and mean to say: "you CAN always make someone an adjutant to a bulky self sustainable unit like Felix or Alois and have them solo the map while the unit HAS the knowledge gem and masters the intermediate class"? It feels like you did from the rest of your post. 😉 So if you are saying that it's very easy to master multiple intermediate classes, I totally agree. I usually don't even need the knowledge gem or an adjutant for magical units since they get class exp from supporting spells which are easier to grind (like healing 1pt of damage or later spamming Ward for no reason). It's almost like an afterthought, really. I always master Bishop and Mage with basically every magical unit on NG Maddening because there's no reason not to since it basically happens on its own ime.

Simple: most of my characters end up mastering more than one class in Maddening NG+ due to the exp nerf being so harsh, and the class exp nerf not. So for instance Marianne is ALSO going to be mastering both Mage and Priest. It's no difference at all, really.

Hanneman has some availability problems which is part of why he's often forgotten I think. He'll also pretty much never double, which is fine if he is one shotting but ime in Maddening NG he doesn't usually. Maybe he should / could with help, but by the time you get him you've already invested in other units that will outshine him without a lot of babying. I guess he's good to have on hand if someone gets RNG screwed. I like Ignatz and think he's another unit that, like Lorenz, often gets crapped on despite having a lot of utility. I'm more meh on Alois but could be convinced! Getting both Poison Strike and Fiendish Blow is trivial on Maddening NG, even more so on Maddneing NG+. Tea time is a thing. It didn't take many to get his charm to 16 (or was it 17?) before taking the dance lesson. He's admittedly RNG blessed in this playthrough but 10% growth from Dancer does help a lot. Every unit of mine that's melee has one ring/gem/shield and a boatload of weapons. They have diverse loadouts since every situation is a bit different. Sometimes you might want more accuracy, so take the iron lace+. Sometimes more power so choose the silver lance. Sometimes range so choose short spear+. Sometimes a gamble on a crit so choose killer lance+. Or you're fighting an armor or calvary unit so reach for rapier or mace+. Can you play through the game, even on maddening ng, with just an iron sword+? Sure, but ime it's better to have a wide array of weapons at your disposal so you rarely if ever feel the need to use a healing item or buffing item. I remember when I first started playing FE decades ago, I would keep healing items on everyone but now I feel like that's just a waste of a slot that could go to a weapon that could put you in a situation where a healing item is unneeded. Right, so this puts Lorenz up a peg: getting into Dark Knight is a PITA for any other mage. This works heavily in his favor in a game where canto is quite broken. Doesn't factoring those in just cancel out? It adds +6 and +5 respectively to both. i didn't include it since it didn't seem necessary, since they should both have both of them (I decided that staying in DB for heartseeker is not ideal, Lorenz does want to quickly go through that back into Warlock then into Dark Knight). Annnete's spell list is, imo, the worst one in the game. Yeah, excalibur is nice but do you really want to get her anywhere near the extremely dangerous fliers in NG Maddening as a Gremory or Warlock? I mean, be my guest but it's dicey and she has issues entering Dark Knight. Otherwise her spells are light and accurate but less damaging. She'll double more in the early game (but that's when you want her as a rallybot), but that drops off towards mid and disappears near end game. Huh, I actually did miss that somehow. Going back to look now. I'm glad it's not just me. 🙂

We're going to have to agree to disagree on the ease of getting Dark Seals. I think it would present a problem on an Iron Man run, but it's not that hard even on NG Maddening imo. We will also have to agree to disagree on Linny's viability as an offensive gambit user. Again, I think the investment is trivial. He's currently my highest lv. character at 31 and has 27cha, on par with Claude who at lv. 30 has 28cha. I think it's very useful to take a unit who would otherwise not be able to get off offensive gambits and make them into one that reliably can instead of taking a unit with already high cha and driving that cha into the sky. There's a point past which added cha is a bit redundant. In Maddening NG chip and maim damage can certainly be useful. Again, even Byleth will do chip or maim sometimes in some circumstances (I just got through ch. 13 and she was chipping and maiming there). Is Byleth useless? I never want to replace an inventory slot with an item if it can be at all helped past very early game. I did put elixers, concoctions etc on most for ch. 13, but that's a special circumstance. If I can avoid toting it around, I will. Pure water is an annoying clutter when you could have a weapon that might be more useful there imo. One other thing that I have totally neglected to bring up about Lorenz is that his personal skill gives +2 damage when he has a battalion equipped, which he always will past the first few chapters. +2damage is nothing to sneeze at, and is part of why he like Lys is often able to one shot enemies. That was a major oversight on my part. So re: Annette he is outdamaging her when comparing their basic spells. Comparing the average Lorenz to the average Anette at level 24 we get Lorenz with 21mag and Annette with 27. The damage forumals are as follows: ((magic + might) + (up to 20% of max hp if you have poison strile)) - resistance 27 + 2 - 6 = 23 (21 + 3 + 9) - 6 = 27 + 2 from Distinguished house = 29 The might of wind is 2, the might of fire is 3. Lorenz is out damaging her by 4pts due to poison strike, but then add in his personal and he's hitting for 6 more damage. Granted, she is perhaps more likely to double due to her spells generally being lower in WT but even that is questionable because Lorenz has decent str growth to make up for his slightly heavier spells. He also has a slightly better speed growth (40 vs. 35). And even mages sometimes have trouble doubling on Maddening NG depending on the mob. He outdamages her due to poison strike and his personal, despite his lower average mag stat, and get gets on horse much easier. He's a better attack mage. She's a far better rallybot.

Oops, lol, I meant Ares. One of those blond dudes on a horse. Whichever! 😉 ...Although I guess Eldigan would fit more with the other two, but he's not a PC.

Haha, yes, this was absolutely ridiculous. One way that I've enjoyed Fire Emblem over the years is by not taking its (almost always at least in part) silly and convoluted storylines very seriously at all. So for me this was an eyeroll, but I also got a genuinely big laugh out of just how incredibly STUPID it was. So personally, I had a lot of fun with the moment. But I can see how people who want a serious story that actually hangs together and makes sense would find this utterly enraging! I will say that from my perspective I found SS to be fun and interesting to some extent, but it certainly could have been better. I think that sadly both of the Black Eagles routes are the worst written and least developed in the game. I don't know why that is, if the team assigned to that part was simply less competent or if the had less time/budget. One other thing with SS in Maddening is that the difficulty curve at endgame was a bit... Unexpected. It was totally doable, but it wasn't a cakewalk like the rest of the maps and took a while. I suppose the rest were so easy in part because one plays versions of them in Verdant Wind. Overall, I wish they had delayed the game further and written BE better AND made more maps but oh well, maybe the sequel will be more polished due to the good reception 3H had overall despite its faults.

They do typically do stuff like that, yes. But they did give us Claude in this game, so in theory it could have been possible that they could have made her class comparable. One other reason to give us three OP lords would have been that 3H is explicitly partially based on Genealogy, which featured Sigurd, Levin and Beowulf [correction] Ares: three very overpowered characters. Granted, none were hybrid. However, there's no reason besides tradition that a mixed class couldn't be very OP. But yeah it's moot at this point since it will never happen in 3H, but maybe in a sequel if they make one. And if they do make a direct sequel it would make sense that the Lords would be even more OP in it. Or their children / parents as the case may be.

Are we talking about Iron Man tiers? Maybe then Dark Seals aren't the best idea, but you can always reset if something goes wrong and you lose a unit. I haven't lost one to him in ages though. Assuming ideal play, Dark Seals aren't that hard to get. Poison strike helps ensure a kill via a second unit if he doesn't just delete (which is a possibility we have to keep in mind). Her 4 base magic isn't that much. Lorenz has Ward and Recover. Ward can be useful in many situations, as can Recover. I realize Annette also has Recover but she lacks ward. Her rallybot utility is nice but falls off after early game. Seems like we're going to have to agree to disagree then since "I think that's false" without supporting evidence isn't much of an argument!

This is very true, which is why it's funny that some are reacting like it's not possible for a mixed magic and armor class to be OP. If IS wanted to, they could give us an Edelgard whose final class was on par with Claude's. I don't see why the implicit assumption should be that the class change would only involve spells. I would assume that it should involve stat boosting in mag and also imo res would be godly. Imagine an armor knight who could actually tank mages too. I agree that mounted Edelgard doesn't feel right, even though a magical great knight class sounds interesting. I think she should get +1mv and additional growth rates in mag and res. That'd be pretty good. Added speed would be nice too. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

Good point about talking about average stats vs. an individual playthrough. Luckily for me, in this instance I am basically talking about a Lorenz with average magic who's been fed +2.5in mag boosters, which is almost exactly what happened in my game! At level 24, according to this calculator, Lorenz should have oops correction: 21.6 magic if he goes the class progression I took him down. In my game, I fed him one +2 booster and got lucky with RNG to the tune of 2pts. I think he's worth the bump up, since Lys will 1HKO most things without help, and Marianne doesn't need it either really as she's mostly a healbot (with some support attacking thrown in sometimes). After seven playthroughs (albeit some with Lorenz benched 😉 ), this Lorenz felt like an average one to me and I wasn't too far off. So right now, my Lorenz is a bit better than an average Lorenz but not that far off, at least at this point in the game. Some will be better, some worse of course. While it's true that early game Lorenz gets doubled by most everything, that's also true of basically all mages so I don't see how that's a point against him specifically. All mages take a while to get off the ground, especially in the early game. The first few maps are rough on them when they're running out of spells and not being able to do much damage. As a noble with balanced stats, though, you can use Lorenz to safely sweep up stragglres if you don't put him in harm's way with his lance and Tempest Lance. He's helped a lot in the first few maps by this utility, which is better than any other mage other than Hubert. My argument for Lorenz doesn't so much center around Lifetaker (I agree that it's a bit nerfed, which is too bad but it's ok in a pinch sometimes) as it does around Poison Strike + easiest entry into Dark Knight for access to canto, black tomefaire, move +1, etc. I've never been so fond of rallybots in this game and while it's true Annette and other rallybots are useful in early game, they do drop off in later game. And isn't this the same as what you were criticizing Lorenz's maim damage for earlier? You said: "That requires one more unit to attack that enemy. You are wasting a unit's player phase turn". So doesn't rallying require basically the same thing? "Wasting" a unit's player phase turn? Why isn't it considered a waste when it's a rally that helps another unit get a kill vs. a maiming that does? Because rally might help on enemy phase in some situations I guess? But in Maddening NG you don't want to be getting enemy phased by more than one and two max so I don't think it's that big of a difference really. It's also safer and easier to control to maim first than to rely on rallies I think. While it's true he'll always lag Lys mag wise, he can make up for that in many situations with Poison Strike, as demonstrated above. I don't agree that maiming an enemy is useless in NG Maddening. Maybe in Hard mode sure, but in NG Maddening even Byleth will be doing maim or even chip damage sometimes. Is Byleth useless? And ah yes, my bad on misremebering which class got fiendish blow as a class skill. It doesn't matter too much though since he should always get it from mage anyway. I agree that Dorothea and Marianne having physic is very useful. But Dorothea has the same exact mag growth as Lorenz, no access to poison strike to make up for it, and a bane in riding. in a Maddening NG run she's not getting on a horse. Marianne has a boon in riding, a hidden talent in lances, and better mag growth, true, but in ideal play imo she is best use primarily as a healbot with some attacking thrown in if she has a spare turn with no one that needs healing. You sacrifice a lot by using Marianne as primarily an attacker, and again she doesn't have access to poison strike. Also, a 50% growth vs. a 40% growth certainly can add up but it's an average of 1pt per ten levels of difference.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on a few points. I just don't think it's as big of a hassle to get dark seals in Maddening NG as you do, and I think if the tier list is one for "optimal play" it should assume that the player in question feels more like me than you on that issue and presumes they're up to the challenge. I find poison strike quite useful against a wide array of enemies. Few things will work on all units so I don't think the fact that it doesn't makes it somehow useless. I am curious as to how you think my assessment of Annette is wrong, and how she's a better attack mage than Lorenz. I do like her as a character (and she kicks ass as a WL on NG+ w/ Holy Tomb farming for Arcane Crystals in early to mid game) but I think she ends up in the bottom spot as far as attack mages go. Well, we are discussing but I made my statement about Linhardt as being a good candidate for dancer generally and I think it's true. It makes a lot of sense to give a unit like him who would otherwise have trouble ever getting off successful gambits a free boost, there's minimal investment needed, he's not that amazing as a support unit, he can still make full use of warp in dancer, he really only trades a bit of healing off of physic for it. Ah, ok. Well I always think of "chip" damage as well, like the real world version: removing a relatively small part. What Lorenz does with Poison Strike is more "maiming" than chipping. 1-9 hp makes it more likely that the mob will die ime than a true chip damage, like if Ignatz doesn't have access to Hunter's Volley and can't double and doesn't crit he'll often do 0.25 - 0.33 of total hp worth of damage. That's more in line of what I think of as "chip". And sometimes multiple units need to clean up after a chip, depending After a Lorenz "maim", only one will need to IF he doesn't 1HKO or 1RKO, which again he can but just not as often as Lys. I think the delay is small and well worth it over time. Plus you get access to Fiendish Blow in Dark Mage as a class ability to make up for it, so in fact he gains earlier access in a sense. But I do now think you are right, and that Heartseeker isn't really worth staying in DB for (I was debating that myself since I sorta like the idea of it on Maddening since things like assassins are so hard to hit, so thanks for helping me decide!). Once he masters DB, he should reclass to Warlock until he can access DK. Dark Knight is very good for him and in general, and he just gets it so much more easily than any other mage that isn't Hubie due to having a boon in Lance and Riding.

Hubie is also useable on SS. Yeah, it's not a great idea to divert a ton of exp to him over the whole game, but an argument can be made for getting Dark Spikes on him. I'm sure there are other strats too. I did SS Maddening on NG+ only though so not totally sure. On BL you can use Dmitri + Ingrid and pull it off probably (tbh I forget exactly how I did it on AM NG Maddening). It's really not true that he's a shadow of the other mages though. as demonstrated, his damge output can in some contexts be higher than Lysithea's and he's the best candidate for earliest Dark Knight. Blue lions has the worst attack mags in the game, imo. Annette imo only shines as a rallybot or magical wyvern, and the latter is prohibitive to get into on Maddening NG. Mercy is a healer combo, not a true attack mage. Neither get into DK easily. And again, no female mage can get poison strike which ups the damage output a LOT in maddening. Try it out, then get back. TBH I also used to bench Lorenz but I've changed my mind in recent playthroughs. The dance lesson should be counted in a tier list though since it's a free +5 that everyone has access to. Even Raphael easily qualified for Dancer when I gave him the dance lesson in a joke run. If you use it on Linhardt instead of a naturally high charm unit, then instead of adding extra charm to an already decent charm unit, you're giving yourself another viable gambiter since the Dancer class gives a 10% boost to charm growth. That's a pretty good deal.

Sure, I meant they should all have broken classes like Claude's class. Edelgard is great as a Wyvern Lord but her end game personal class is terrible. Her relic is probably my favorite due to the galeforce effect. Soloing CF's end boss with her is fun.

Well I'll be! I remember hearing that they all had to escape or it didn't count. Well, that helps a LOT. I'll try that next time, thank you! 🙂

I wouldn't exactly call consistently leaving enemies with 1-9 hp "chipping. Also, again, in my playthrough he CAN delete some enemies as well with Ragnarok or Agnea's Arrow or doubling. Again, if we assume optimal play we also pick up Fiendish Blow from Mage on the way to Dark Knight. This is not hard to do in Maddening NG, I had them both relatively early. It's normal for me that my magical units will master both Bishop and Mage so it's basically the same thing. Dark Knight gets black tomefaire. He gets into Dark Knight easier than any other magical unit besides Hubert; this is part of what makes him good. Canto is just as good as range in many instances, and I always give him Caduceus (Dorothea benefits more from a Magical Staff imo). I think he's the best candidate for it. I don't like to sacrifice Thyrsus for him, but that'd help him a lot of course. Maybe, however, you have a point about switching him to Warlock after mastering Dark Bishop. I do like heartseeker but you may be onto something about mastering DB, then reclassing to Warlock for Black Tomefaire and 2x spells... Still, ultimately imo he's best in Dark Knight. He'd be amazing if you could get Indra's Arrow for him, but you can't (not really, even though it's in a late GD chapter) so oh well.

True Chivalry (Felix) is my least favorite one. It proves, once and for all, that Green Units are the one true Fire Emblem enemy. This was very hard on Hard, when Felix's Daddy was OP since it was tricky to keep enough enemies alive to allow the other green units to escape when he just mowed everything down in one hit. On maddening, you have the opposite problem since Daddy's stats are nerfed in comparison to the enemies so he CHARGES to his death if you can't distract him / get lucky. I always find myself using stride on the Green Unit most near the starting point and also often using draw back to try to get that one just a bit closer to the goal. It's best if Daddy decides to head towards the corner to the bottom left but if he goes for the upper right it's a nightmare. I got around it last time by baiting an enemy to the door of that little square area in the upper right and spamming Impregnable Wall on three of my units there, which stymied Daddy's suicide attempt for long enough for that slow ass green unit to escape.

Well, they could just add some movement and speed. Or maybe even give her a horse and make her a magical great knight or something. All of the Lords should be broken imo. There would be ways to make a mixed magical Edelgard OP in a complimentary way to how Claude is ridiculously OP.

The OP of this post was very unclear as to the terms of the tier list. IMO tier lists are interesting both as overall and as route tier lists, I was talking of an overall one since it wasn't specified as a route specific one. Overall, Lorenz simply has more availability than Hubie since it only makes sense to use Hubie on one route. But yes, we can certainly agree that Lorenz is a better pick in SS than Hubie and Hubie would be by far the better pick in CF. Ah, but the thing is you don't have to run him as a jack of all trades. Make him a specialist and he'll do well; his stats ime fall into line (less str and more mag) if you do this. The newb mistake is to try to use him both as a physical and magical attacker. I actually just ran some numbers from my playthrough. If I'm not mistaken, the formula to calculate magical damage is: (Magic + Might) - Resistance = Damage However for any unit with poison strike that calucaltion is as such: ((Magic + Might) + (up to 20% of max HP)) - Resistance = Damage The might of miasma is 5. Let’s use a lvl 28 brigand with 47hp and 6 res as the test subject. Lorenz in my playthrough does ((26 + 5) + (9)) - 6 = 34 Lysithea does (31 + 5) - 6 = 30 Please correct me if I'm mistaken somewhere, the formulas aren't listed on Serenes and I got this from Gamefaqs. So Lorenz in my playthrough is actually doing more damage with poison strike on one hit. I think poison strike only applies to one round of combat howerver, so if there are two rounds then she'll do more damage in total (but it won't matter since they will both kill the unit in question (he will do a total of 50 base damage in that situation whereas she will do 60). The issue becomes one shots where she can delete and he can only reduce to 1hp (or thereabouts). Which of course means he's not better than her. But when you look at the math, he does start looking better. However, of course poison strike isn't as useful on Hard or Normal since enemy HP is lower and therefore 20% of max HP is obviously also a lower value. Lorenz has actually gone up in usefulness in Maddening imo. Again, Hubert is better but he's (basically) locked to one route. I think we'll have to disagree on how difficult it is to kill the Death Knight. Yes, it's hard as hell the first few times but it does become easier over time. And if we are assuming "optimal play" (as another poster suggested) then we should assume the player is capable enough to kill the death knight with relative ease. Planning ahead to get Dark Spikes is a perfectly viable strategy! The amount of resources (tea times, stat boosters, dance lessons (not even really a resource per se) you have to put into Linhardt to get him to win the contest is minimal imo as compared to the benefits. Also, it's good to use the free +5 from dance lessons to fix a unit like Linny with low charisma in case you want to put a damaging gambit on him (which is sometimes a good option in Maddening NG).

Byleth and your dancer will often have high enough charisma to hit him, esp. with linked attacks (snipers, mages with relics, etc.) Why would it have to be a half assed class? It certainly could in theory kick ass. I made her into a Dark Knight last CF playthrough and she did pretty well in that. But they could make her final class have crazy mag growth pretty easily. It's a shame that her class is currently so bad. I've never finished a CF playthrough with her in it since it just sucks currently.