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-It's because he instantly can promote to Wyvern the chapter he is recruited (go all in on flying) which raises his base strength to acceptable levels (21) at that point. If he has a silverbow+, he has a way to kill any flier very reliably, and assassins if already weakened; you can also gamble with PBV killer bow+. This a period of use where I felt like he was just really solid filler, I just didn't really have with Ingrid. I don't think he's a good long term investment unit though. Ingrid isn't bad-because any flier with C axes can do the Smash Killer Axe+ strategy once they reach C axes, to destroy something 50% of the time, but it'll take her some investment to get there: -Petra has better offensive stats, bane of monsters for Wo Dao+/Killer sword+ monster kills and battalion wrath for lategame enemy phase kills. She also has bow proficiency which is nice as well for ranged killer bow stats. She also starts with C axes and D flying and transitions easily into flying classes without effort. -Felix has better strength and temporarily powerful between his crest activation and his personal skill which is still really strong until pretty much time skip. -Ferdie/Sylvain have good personal skills and swift strikes. -Cyril's PBV gives him a good niche for midgame and promotion gains patch up his weak bases. -Caspar late recruit has high enough strength he can pretty much killer axe+ smash kill pretty much anything as a Wyvern. D authority isn't THAT hard to get even with a weakness. -On VW: Ignatz and Raphael (and Annette) are nice drop in utility for on demand Smite/Rallies/Retribution for most of the game when you need it. -Once again, I believe mages should all be C tier unless they are your route's early game healer (Marianne, Mercedes, and Linhardt--who should be A+ IMO) or offer a movement spell. Because using them solely for combat is very inefficient. I do think Hubert should be above Dorothea, but I don't think an entire tier. IMO, Dorothea is best on BE and SS, but still probably B tier a most with other "utility characters" The issue with the tier list now is it mixes up utility and combat and doesn't look how it can be applied into a team. E.G. sometimes you need 3 warp users + Rescue and sometimes you just need Lysithea; some characters are best just recruited really late or just for mid game and then dropped at some point. I think tiers should define the roles they play throughout your playthrough and compare how well they accomplish those roles. IMO if a character with worse stats can still kill the same enemies should they be a tier below the character with better stats? Here is a sample: S tier: Byleth, Claude, Dimitri, Edelgard, Lysithea (Strong player phase AND Enemy phase/Warp-These units define how fast you can complete maps) A: Lindhardt, Manuela, Flayn, Seteth, Catherine, GOOD starting house members for their respective route (Hilda, Leonie, Petra), Dancer character (S tier, but less powerful-almost as strong as S tier with investment) B+: Shamir, Felix, Sylvain, Ferdinand (missing out on pegasus really hurts their EXP gain midgame), Caspar (late recruit non-SS/CF), Petra (non-CF), Leonie and Hilda (non-VW) (Strong player phase/limited enemy phase power-As strong as A tier with investment, good mid/lategame filler without investment) B: Annette (rallies/Authority), Marianne (VW), Mercedes (AM), Raphael (VW-rally/smite, AM/CF/SS-lategame filler), Ignatz (VW), Alois, Ingrid, Cyril (mid game filler) (Rallies/Authority bots/Early game healer/Combat outclassed to B+ -Drop in situational utility, can be as good as B+ tier with investment) C+: Hubert (CF/SS), Dorothea (CF/SS), Bernie (CF/SS), Ashe (AM) (Earlygame contributions- helpful early on, but would require significant investment if you want to use efficiently past earlygame) C Dorothea (AM/VW), Hannemann, Marianne (SS/CF/AM), Mercedes (VW/CF/SS), Caspar (CF/SS), Bernie (non-CF/SS, Ashe (non-AM), Ignatz (non-VW), Lorenz (Inefficient/outclassed to use for intended role - completely outclassed, main contribution is to be the strider when force deployed)

-Keep in mind this is pretty much the only way to do this map quickly. EX: Byleth deals 4 damage with sword of the creator as a Wyvern, Cichol wyvern maxed, and windsweep. -Other examples of combat: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dsJb-lbInaXaBpDVB4aLL3AAglc5gODUopL8ns-iNJ8/edit -Chapter 5 boss and killing an entire shield herself with Seraphim -Chapter 9: basically soloing the right monster -Sylvain paralogue: soloing the Warrior/Brawler corner -Seteth paralogue: soloing the female Bishop corner -Ashe paralogue: soloing the cavalier corner -Caspar paralogue: soloing the armor knight group on the left side of the map -Petra paralogue: soloing the central enemies below the starting area (sniper, armor knights, general, etc) -We are also ignoring 10+ range warp is game-changing late game in...so many ways that make things like chapter 17, 22, Manuela's paralogue, Ingrid's paralogue, Rhea's paralogue, Claude's paralogue, etc: 1 turn-able, gets you DOTG without wasting several turns...there's just so many applications. -I think B+, I'd still argue that he's better than Ingrid (if recruited at level 21). -Petra starts with D flight and C something axes so she doesn't actually have any trouble reclassing into Wyvern (or pegasus either). She also has bane of monsters, battalion wrath (for enemy phase), and bow proficiency, and slightly better stats. I'd say she's easily a tier above Ingrid.

No crits needed for Nemesis. I don't think anyone would advocate for something as extreme in a legitimate argument. This is honestly one of the most LTC friendly (but least friend speed running) fire emblems because it's all about preparation and planning. Hit 1: from 3 range had ~70 displayed hit (Lysithea survives after Blessing and equipped with a guard Adjutant); Hit 2: 1 range had 100 displayed hit. Luna has 65 hit; 20 hit from A+ reason; 30 hit from maxed; Macuil Evil Repelling Co; 50 skill +17 luck (after meals, dance, skills) for 33 hit; Linked attack: A Raphael, A Byleth, B Marianne, Seteth (not shown) for 30 hit=178 hit (188 hit with an accuracy ring) Nemesis has something like 120 evade after you kill like 2 of his sub-bosses.

I'm going to reference my own playthrough for GD route as grounds for the claims I'll be making (61 turns main game, 31 turns for all paralogues, 3 aux, 11 quest): https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/88993-golden-deer-ltc-playthrough-maddening-new-game-all-quests-and-paralogues-no-dlc/ Even if you ignore my crit based LTC strategies, I would say it's pretty optimized for efficiency goals as well. I think there's some assumptions made when looking at the game in theory that do not hold true in practice when playing the game "efficiently": 1) Enemy stats benchmarks are really high and honestly swiftstrikes/pointblank volley even with high might weapons will not automatically 1RKO enemies like hard mode (honestly killer weapon+ with crit+ combat arts and battalions are the most reliable ways to beat enemies for most "decent stat characters") 2) In general, mages past early game who do not offer movement based skills (warp and rescue) are REALLY inefficient as combat units (compared to a wyvern rider) 3) Similarly, physics "healers" are simply not necessary beyond earlygame (which gives Marianne a pass) 4) Dodge tanking lategame is really the only way to have any decent enemy phase for any rout map lategame (Petra's paralogue, Ferdinand's paralogue, etc); battalion wrath IMO is the strongest battalion since 1RKO's on enemy phase are pretty reliable if they can survive via dodge tanking. -Lysithea should be S tier for huge range warp; 1 turn endgame being possible via 2 hits of luna; 1HKO potential and valid Nosferatu tanking in some situations (AKA warp and good combat utility). -Manuela learns Warp around the same time as Linhardt and should be in the same tier (1 below Lysithea) at A+ -Flayn should be B+ because rescue tangibly saves turns and gives Seteth and Byleth + might supports. IMO she should be A if this was LTC. -Marianne should move down to B because healing is really only relevant chapters 2-7, but not further because she is actually available for healing when it mattered unlike the other mages. Also not that it matters, but due to her position in chapter 13, she is probably your best choice for dancer. -Caspar can be recruited late and offer solid combat as filler Wyvern should be moved to B+ (he also has battalion wrath if you put some effort into him). Keep in mind he comes back at level 26 if you recruit him at the last possible month. -Petra is probably the best recruit and should be A for access to battalion wrath and probably worth using throughout the game. -Ingrid down to B+ or B. Honestly the only thing good about her are rally magic and free flier; her stats do not compare favorably to other recruits used for combat: Caspar, Sylvain, Ferdinand, Felix, Catherine, Shamir, Petra, etc; she as not good combat arts: no swiftstrikes, no PBV, no battalion wrath, no crit+ combat arts. -Sylvain (f) to B+ (if you use him), he honestly isn't really any better than the rest of the mid/lategame combat fillers in this tier. -Cyril to B+, honestly his stats are worse, but he's functionally not that different from the rest of the characters here in practice (you should recruit him at level 21 IMO). -Hanneman, Dorothea, Lorenz, and Mercedes to C tier; the combat and healing is in general not worth the deployment slot over another Wyvern rider (lategame) or pegasus/cav (midgame) by the time you recruit them -Annette to B, her rallies and authority rank alone should bring her to this tier (same reason you have rapheael and Ignatz here) -Ignatz, Raphael, and Alois to B as well: might as make B tier the rallybot/Authority bot tier IMO S tier: Byleth, Claude, Lysithea A tier: Leonie, Catherine, Hilda, Petra, Seteth, Lin, Manuela (warp and strong combat units) B+ tier: Midgame and lategame combat fillers (good stats, but poor enemy phase) and Flayn (though IMO she's a A tier unit just for her support boosts and Rescue though I think people might disagree) B tier: rally bots, authority bots, and Marianne C tier: Mages/healers/Ashe/Bernie

Here's some self advertising for a helpful resource if interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/ef5pl1/verdant_wind_maddening_ltc_92_turns_14_from/ Depending on how much you are grinding, it's not a great idea to use so many members of your original house. You just don't have the EXP to spare early on and may find yourself soft-locked if you spread EXP too thinly (like any fire emblem). IMO the best members of your original house are Byleth>Claude>Lysithea>Hilda or Leonie. You can round out your combat members with Seteth. Then choose 1-2 of Catherine, Felix, Petra, Shamir. Then round out your team with Linhardt and Manuela for support. Add Flayn/Alois/Caspar/Ferdinand as filler depending on your chapter per chapter needs. You should also save 1-2 spots per chapter for a rally user/Retribution user/Stride/DoTG user: Annette, Alois, Ignatz, Raphael being the best ones. IMO the most efficient option for all combatants is Wyvern rider/Lord and Cavaliers/Paladin/Pegasus/Wyvern for Rally/Authority users. Lysithea doesn't get dark tome flair from Warlock so she would probably be better off as a bishop for more warp midgame Marianne is probably the ideal candidate for dancer because chapter 13 is terrible and you probably should just make Byleth a pegasus knight with Sword breaker and alert stance, and make a dash to the boss. On turn 5 kill the boss and just Lysithea to warp Marianne to Byleth to kill him again.

Here's a tier list for people into that. Ordered within tiers. S tier are vital throughout the game and set the standard for what is possible in this game. They are the best at combat on both phases and Warping. A tier contribute utility or combat that cannot be replicated easily. FYI Marianne was my dancer character. The combatants have both player phase and enemy phase potential with some set up. B tier are solid filler characters at various points of the game with combat worse than A tier. They have decent player phase potential, but mediocre enemy phase combat. They might offer minor forms of utility that is semi-unique to them. C tier are the rally/authority bots. D tier are basically your stride bots. They don't have as much time to invest in authority as C tier and are outclassed as rallybots compared to C tier.

Only problem is getting her too early she will be too low of a level to reach Peg instantly. Not really a big deal either way. I just waited to 6 because I didn't need her until 7. -I'm not sure this is that true, barely anyone except lords, Felix and maybe Leonie/Petra will be 1RKOing until around chapter 5. -Bolt Axe also has 15 weight...which unless she is 1hkoing enemies isn't a good way to do enemy phase. Annette is not fast enough to overcome that with a good speed growth (unless you rig I guess). There's also the issue of getting to level 20 to begin with. Is the progression Mage-->Wyvern? -I'm not sure, but I'll have to study this closer. I'm open to the idea though. -I think Felix isn't that bad with cross recruit; I think it's hard to justify starting him from scratch, but it's easier to make up weapon levels for a combatant than it is to make up stats for benchmarks. I still got Felix to Cav before Sylvain's paralogue after recruiting him in chapter 6 for what it's worth. Swords also give him valid weapons to use like Armorslayer that lances and Bows don't give him. -I'm still not fully clear how she is being used? Aren't blue Lion Dancers a ground battlion? Is she training in lances/riding too be to a cav? It also has heavy attack penalties so I guess she isn't using it full time? -I do agree it is interesting. I think it depends on benchmarks, but I'll keep an open mind. I already raised her from like E to C so we'll see. Some of the paralogues are not boss kill though and same for most the quests (which I do agree is a borderline if they should be considered or not); I'm just doing them for research I guess.

I only have insight for Golden Deer, but here is my playthrough by order of recruitment: -Byleth (F): Get Pegasus (before chapter 5) Get C bows (after chapter 6) Try to go for Wyvern but IMO you can stay in Peg if you want to focus on recruitment requirements/Authority End in Falcon or Wyvern. Male is similar, but you might want to just settle for Bow Knight (which has it's own advantages) -Claude: Reach 15 str/11 speed or 16 strength/10 Speed for chapter 3 Get C bows before chapter 3 Get requirements for brigand before chapter 5 Get to Wyvern pretimeskip -Lysithea: Get B Faith by chapter 4 Get 16 magic before chapter 5 Get Lorenz's paralogue weapon before chapter 7 Monk-->Mage-->Bishop-->Gremory-->Dark Knight (optional) -Hilda: Awaken armor strength skill by chapter 5 Get B armor by chapter 7 Pegasus-->Wyvern-->Wyvern Get C bows/D authority at some point -Leonie: I went Cav-->Paladin-->Bowknight because I had too many fliers and needed a few cavs Also never needs investment outside of goal setting which let me focus on other character benchmarks easier -Raphael: Get D authority during chapter 3 Get B armor before chapter 4 Brigand-->Wyvern (can stop here)-->Wyvern -Ignatz: Get D authority before week 1 of chapter 2 Get B authority/C lances/D riding (and level 10) before chapter 7 Grab Sylvain's battlion before chapter 7 Cav (can stop here)-->Paladin-->Bow Knight -Lorenz: He was kind of just my stride bot for early game >_> -Marianne: Ended up as my Dancer, but had a good spell list that was sometimes helpful to have on a dancer. Went Bishop at some point just for some stat boosts and changed back... -Sylvain: Recruited before chapter 5. Prioritize getting A lances. I went Cav-->Paladin-->Dark Knight (optionally) Brigand-->Wyvern is a better option individually, but probably worse for your team overall. -Felix: Recruited before chapter 6 I went Cav-->Paladin-->Bow Knight He was comparable to Leonie-more strength, less speed, durability, and authority You also don't want to fight him as an enemy -Petra: Recruited before chapter 6 I went Peg-->Wyvern-->Wyvern She hit her stride after getting to C bows/D authority and Wyvern. You also don't want to fight her as an enemy -Catherine: Recruited before chapter 6 I went Peg-->Falcon Knight Pretty good once she hits C bows -Flayn: Save her a magic herb for 4 range rescue I needed B faith/D reason before Sylvain's paralogue Went Priest-->Monk-->Bishop-->Gremory (optional) -Shamir: Recruited before chapter 7 Went Peg-->Falcon Knight Minimal investment, sometimes would reclass to sniper for certain maps (like the Sylvain or Sothis paralogue) -Ingrid: Recruited before chapter 7 Went Peg-->Falcon Knight Minimal investment character. Kind of fell off at some point, but still useful. Prioritize getting D authority early for rally magic (and a battlion) and C bows -Lindhardt: Recruited before chapter 7 Prioritize getting to A warp Went Priest-->Monk-->Mage-->Bishop--> (Dark knight optional) -Dorothea: Recruited before chapter 7 Mainly so I didn't have to deal with her next chapter... Prioritize C Physic and A reason for someone who has some interesting utility Went Mage-->Monk-->Warlock-->Gremory -Manuela: Recruited before chapter 8 Went Monk-->Bishop Prioritized A Faith Kind of okay with a Levin sword if she needed to kill something -Hanneman: Recruited before chapter 8 Honestly just here for a stridebot during his paralogue Prioritized A+ Reason Went Mage-->Monk-->Warlock -Ferdinand: Recruited before chapter 8 Prioritized C bows then B lances/Riding. Then A lances for the combat art. Went Cav-->Paladin-->Bow Knight Good filler. Mercedes (she okay I guess), Caspar, Bernie, Ashe, Cyril, Alois are kind of just there for the paralogue and research purposes and recruited at the last possible month. I didn't recruit Annette...though she probably would have been somewhat more useful than the above. -Seteth Wyvern-->Wyvern Prioritized C bows Good filler.

I did it on the last free day before chapter 7's main battle (because I needed a second Stride). I recruited Catherine the same time I recruited Felix and Petra which was during chapter 6. It didn't take much resources because I made sure to hit level 12 at that point and got her C support. She comfortably hit pegasus requirements before this deadline. I'm not super impressed by the Frozen Lance/Bolt Axe/Soul Blade in practice because they are not strong enough to 1HKO enemies and are only usable from 1 range. Her enemy phase is not great as a Wyvern since she can't use magic. I'm not sure how viable it actually is TBH. I'm not sure just being able to get her to A authority is enough to move her to S tier though. I think she's comparable to the other C tier characters who offer movement and other utility, but not as viable at combat. I mean the ideal team will include 1-2 of the C tier characters just for support IMO. I think I probably have Bernie and Ashe too high though and will probably move them down. I think that's fair, I'm convinced since enough people brought it up that. The issue is, I'm not fully sure if Bow knight/Paladin is outright worse than flier as a movement type because you likely will want both types of movement for most maps since you don't have enough flier battlions for everyone to be a flier >_> (and bowflair). You're probably using bows anyway for route maps and durability does kind of matter for that. I also find speed benchmarks less difficult than strength ones around mid game, because enemies start weighing themselves down and becoming more durable. I also admit I'm not sure myself since I haven't properly done a BL LTC before and kind of extrapolated Dimitri would be about as good at that time I made Blythe a bow knight my first playthrough. That being said, his authority strength helps him from a utility angle though which characters in the tier below can't replicate. I will also admit, I biased myself with this list since it's from the perspective of someone who only LTC'd GD route. Felix is much worse there because he autoleveled poorly, but he's still one of the best recruits even then if you get him early enough (managed during chapter 6 for me). His bad authority eventually bites him though.

These will eventually be updated to the topic I posted elsewhere and ended up in the let's play forum I guess... Chapter 4: (note I'm leaving out the parts where Leonie and Hilda basically clear out the Left and Right sides on their own after getting rallies from Ignatz and Annette for exp) Raphael needs B armor Lysithea needs B faith Turn 1: Stride Byleth move 1 step behind the DK. Make sure Lysithea is 3 steps away Smite Lorenz (who has stride) Turn 2: Stride Byleth Warp Byleth over the Death Knight. Kill boss with Byleth (really low benchmarks so not too hard). Sylvain Paralogue: The Forgotten 2 Turns Deploy: Blythe (peg), Sylvain (cav), Felix (cav), Shamir (sniper), Ingrid (peg), Leonie (cav) Claude (Brigand), Lysithea (mage), Flayn (monk), Catherine (Peg), Hilda (peg) Put Stride on Sylvain Made a Steel Bow+ and Killer bow+ for Byleth; Byleth needs C bows Turn 1: Southside: Stride Shamir, Leonie, Felix, and Byleth Shamir heads west toward the archer corner Felix and Leonie each take out a thief. Byleth gets in the middle of the armor knight corner Ingrid moves next to Sylvain Northside: Flayn rescues Lysithea forward Lysithea heads west to the fighter corner and attacks the brawler (from 4 range) Claude takes out a nearby mage in the mage corner of the northeast and gets in range of the dark mage Hilda (mace+) and Catherine (steel lance+) move down Enemy phase: Shamir takes out all the archers of southwest Claude takes out the mages in the north-east Lysithia takes out the fighters in the northwest Byleth clears all the enemies in the southeast (steel bow+) Hilda kills a brigand and armor knight Note: it's important enemies do not have less than 1/2 HP after this enemy phase because they will no longer aggro after the sectional miniboss dies. Turn 2: Needed a crit on the armor knight mini-boss with killer bow+. The archer, fighter, and mage mini-bosses are reliably killable by Shamir, lysithea, and Claude respectively Leonie heads northwest to kill another thief Ingrid takes out a thief (thunderbrand) Felix takes out a thief Hilda finishes off the last thief Enemy phase: Clean up the last few enemies (2 mercenaries left) Chapter 7: War of Eagle and Lions- 4 turns Deploy: Claude, Byleth (peg), Lysithea (mage), Hilda (peg), Ignatz (cav), Ingrid (peg), Leonie (cav), Sylvain (cav), Petra (peg), Felix (cav) Adjutants (for some extra hit): Marianne on Leonie, Raphael on Claude. Need B armor on Hilda Need B authority, C lances, D authority on Ignatz Need the relic from Lorenz’s paralogue and the battlion from Sylvain’s paralogue Turn 1: Everyone gets Stride turn 1 Byleth takes out the nearest Cav and canto's rightward. Hilda uses Smite so Byleth is in range of Ferdinand and one of the Pegasus knights. Claude takes out the Cav blocking the ballista. Lysithea takes out Bernie Ingrid takes out the furthest Cav near the ballista Left side: Felix and Leonie take out Ashe’s group after getting stride from Ignatz. Turn 2: Left side: Leonie moves in position to counter the Pegasus knight from 2 range (Steel bow). Felix and Ignatz follow behind Right side: Set up another stride (I needed Warp and then Smite on Lysithea to get this position right). Take out Ferdinand. Enemy phase: Pegasus knight dies to counter on Leonie. Turn 3: Left Side: Stride Felix and Leonie again. Felix 1HKOs Annette (Steel lance+) Leonie 1RKOs a Cav with a steel bow (Sylvain?) and is in position to 1RKO Mercedes on enemy phase Right Side: Stride Byleth, Claude, Hilda, Ingrid, Petra, Lysithea Petra heads in range of the last pegasus knight to the east (equipping a bow) as bait. Claude takes out the thief (Petra’s replacement-needed a +hit battlion) Byleth 1HKOs a mage (Dorothea) with Curved Shot Steel bow+. She is now in range of Caspar, Edelgard, Hubert and a generic Brigand. Lysithea, Ingrid, and Hilda head upward toward Dedue’s armor brigade Lysithea takes out the sword fighter (Felix) Ingrid takes out a Cav. Hilda equips a bow and baits the armors forward (they won’t use a gambit if you can’t counter them Enemy phase: Byleth 1RKO Caspar, Hubert, Edelgard, and a generic brigand. My Byleth needed to dodge 1 out of the 4 attacks. Fortunately they all have around 40-60 ish % hit. Felix is attacked by Dimitri (important because Leonie would die if Dimitri and Mercedes attacks her) and defeats a generic armor knight that attacked him. Mercedes attacks Leonie and is 1RKO’d The Pegasus attacks Petra equipped with a bow (for some reason this Pegasus knight will normally run away after Edelgard dies if you can counter it at all). The armor knights are aggro’d by Hilda. Turn 4: Byleth needs a curved shot critical kill on the priest (Linhardt) behind Edelgard because it won’t attack you on enemy phase ever and I can only reach it from 3 range (77 hit and ~39 crit with my Killer bow+). Petra 1RKOs the Pegasus knight that attacked her on enemy phase. Claude KOs a mage straggler that moved toward Byleth last enemy phase, but couldn't reach her. Hilda and Ingrid kill the 2 armor knights that atteck Hilda and canto out of range of Dedue. Lysithia kills the 3rd armor knight and is on the edge of Dedue’s range. Leonie and Felix team up to kill Dimitri. Ignatz can finish off the armor knight if Felix didn’t KO it on enemy phase. Enemy phase: all that’s left is Dedue who suicides on Lysithea on enemy phase and a fighter that dies to Hilda.

I'm not sure how to address this. At what point are people actually getting death blow and should that really be prioritized over getting more of things like shove/reposition earlier? That being said I think there's something to consider given Dimitri is extremely strong without needing skills and A rank lances. I think the strength lead Dimitri has is definitely relevant because it makes his enemy phase stronger during rout maps where you want to be wielding bows to clear everything (Sylvain's bow weakness is definitely a point against him, but he has other things to make up for it). This is also why I think Leonie is better than Ingrid for what it's worth.

I think someone managed to beat you to it quoted below, but required certain level ups. I think BE was possible as well as SSDenis posted earlier, though it sounded very unreliable (especially without divine pulse access at this point. GD might be impossible though, you don't really have great power options since you don't have Edelgard, Felix, or Annette in that route to power through it. Maybe with Male Blythe and Hilda's smash things might work out in 5 turns? Reposting Silly's Link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jl0TjTVp32KyfZpEvTIEw9hjusQnyzgbOMEF5XSmYRk/edit?usp=sharing As an aside updated the OP: -Chapter 4 for GD is 2 turns. -Sylvain's paralogue in 2 turns. Chapter 7 can be done in 4 turns (Need a very optimized team tho). I can go into details if anyone is interested.

It is possible. It's not as useful as you think when you get it though.

The 5 turn involves Leonie taking the left side, Claude the middle, and Byleth the right side. Everyone else kind of just supported them. I didn't figure out the B support thing at that time so I only had Ingrid as a good recruit (and Sylvain I guess). I want to say optimizing with a second Stride user (Ignatz) and having Petra and/or Felix available might make a difference. We'll see though The 2 turn is pretty simple, you pretty much just need a dancer...or do it early with 2 warpers, Flayn, and 1-2 Smiters I actually took out the FOW mage on turn 2 enemy phase. I used the Lure gambit with Byleth after using stride on turn 2. The boss was taken out with Claude (with a rally strength) and Leonie following up with a steel bow curved shot. Oh I see. Getting to Smite is pretty difficult by chapter 4 . Going from D to B is 580 exp. You get 7 weeks of training IIRC. 54*7=378. You likely get 6-7 tutoring sessions where you should average 34 exp (if 6). That said, I can now see how GD is 2 turns. In fact it's completely reliable...you need to get Raphael to B armor and Lysithea to B Faith by chapter 4 which is ...possible with some resetting and planning (it's a little challenging because you also want Raphael to D authority for chapter 3 since Ignatz or mission assistance Annette struggles to survive turn 2 enemy phase) You can just ignore DK entirely and just warp past him on turn 2. Also probably impossible on BE route since you might need Edelgard to do something else and reaching warp is impossible at this point.

I understand where you're coming from. I don't think you sound facetious either. I definitely don't think optional auxillary battles for grinding purposes are allowed. The reason is something that should be discussed though. However, I'd like to subscribe to a philosophy of only looking at maps rather than just not allowing for resources to be used altogether (even if the auxillary battle maps are technically resources as well). For example in my Golden Deer, hard mode, new game had a turncount of 52 (depending on your threshold for reliability it can probably hit around 49; I can write out the specifics turncounts of my playthrough if you want) if you ignore all optional maps. However, now you miss out on physically playing ~1/2 the game by not playing the "optional" story/quest maps solely for the lowest number to populate on the screen which I feel misses out on the bigger picture of why we might want a tier list to begin with. I'm not sure a tier list that requires us to ignore half the maps of the game is useful (we go from 41 possible maps +quests to like 23). My current playthrough I'm aiming for all the paralogues which in thier own right are worth discussing as well. E.g figuring out how to route Sylvain's paralogue in 2 turns is legitimately more interesting than most of the warp+stride+boss kill maps later on. That is to say I think we should include paralogues towards LTC, but I don't think they should be viewed as a penalty either because you are definitely not making that turncount up later since most maps are 1 turnable. Like make a goal turncount per map, but with the stipulation that you can't spend turns grinding on other maps to make that turncount possible. We are not minimizing time per map. I think the game should be considered within a single playthrough. E.g. chapter 4 is easy to 2 turn if overleveled, but you won't be if all previous chapters were LTC/Efficiency. Unless you can make up that turncount spent grinding elsewhere.

This is lowest turn count (aim for reliable arbitrarily: no required low hit rate, low crit rate kills).This is not NG+ because it makes all characters essentially the same. I think any character can reliably be recruited from a different house by chapter 4 (except Sylvain) if you aim for them and know what you're doing (and willing to reset for B recruitment randomness). I think chapter 6 for Catherine/Shamir/Cyril is probably fair as well. But the assumption in this list is that students are tiered base on Byleth starting in their house. I think Paralogues are fair game. I don't think literally playing a map should count against anything in itself. I think a better standard should be lowest turn count per map rather than lowest total turns in a playthrough (since if we just ignore paralogues we miss out on learning how to complete them efficiently; since everyone will just skip them otherwise).

From my perspective in addition to what is mention is that he has no time to work C bows in. This means compared to the other characters above him, he is unable to do certain things in rout maps you would want him to. Like you've eluded, his enemy phase isn't reliable compared to characters you had from chapter 1-6ish to work around and optimize. I think that's usually how we play, but it's hard to evaluate characters meaningfully if we just evaluate them with the assumption we will be dropping them once we recruit the "good" characters in the other houses. That being said maybe there's a happy medium between the two. For example, I previously had descriptions for why characters were in certain tiers, but left it off since I know there are many ways to play the game. B- was for characters with weaker combat potential and difficulty snowballing, but offered something unique that might merit deployment in LTC or efficiency more than the 10th best combatant (this is of course dependent on accounting for how team synergy works). If we ignore their combat/stats completely: -Flayn offers Rescue almost right away and eventually fortify -Manuela offers Warp (eventually) -Ignatz offers rally speed by chapter 1 and a 2nd stride user after chapter 6, -Annette offers rally speed by chapter 3, strength by prologue, and a 2nd stride user after chapter 6, -Raphael offers rally Strength by chapter 1 and smite after chapter 4, Hubert offers rally Magic and a 2nd stride user after chapter 6. -Deadeye from Bernie and Ashe has an interesting impact on certain AI and easily fit into bow knight or wyvern with a bow. I'm not convinced tiers C-E have meaningfully different combat when used since they are all sub-optimal combatants long term. Personally I would tier it like this: C tier: Manuela, Flayn, Ignatz, Raphael, Annette, Hubert, Bernie, Ashe (they do something useful that tangibly saves turns throughout the game) D tier: Caspar, Lorenz, Cyril, Dedue (they do not save turns, but exist early game) E tier: Alois, Gilbert, Hanneman (lategame and outclassed)

Out of curiousity does anyone know how this game calculates accuracy from range?

Are you crediting Sylvain for Lance of Ruin? Technically it is tied to him and makes death knight less RNG in chapter 6; anyone can use it though. His versatile recruitment is a point in his favor, but as others have mentioned lysithea can be recruited pretty early as well so really he just simply things Hmm...from my subjective experience playing BL i'd agree, but I didn't even attempt to LTC it since I didn't have a good warper in play or could figure out how recruitment worked back then. That's true, but so do characters in B. I mean compared to Shamir and Catherine who can be recruited at chapter 6-7 without too much trouble and are pegasus knights and maybe C bows and some supports by the time he's recruited...I'm not sure Seteth really outclasses them. I didn't try it personally, but he can hit Cav for midgame (and have smite) and function okay up until chapter 8 (dismount for player phase combat gauntlets since it's a free action), though I admit it might not be a good idea longterm since he won't be hitting any decent advanced classes. I can agree to this. I'm not sure anyone is arguing that he needs to be dancer; dancer is probably wasted on him since it denies one of your mages a 6 move option. If he isn't a starting character he would definitely be C tier or probably D+. If you start with him, he's not that hard to salvage since he can focus on working toward bow knight right away (C lance isn't too hard to hit). While he doesn't have deadeye he does have rally speed and will easily fit into B authority (for the 2nd stride after chapter 7) which I find to be just as situationally useful as deadeye. As an aside, I'm not sure how I feel about the 2 turn option for chapter 4. The only way I can see this happening is a low accuracy and low critical deadeye from Bern or Ashe (you can go for either critical or accuracy since no battlion starts with both). Though it's only 2 turns to try to reset for I guess...and you have divine pulse at this point. The other option is killing the death knight somehow on turn 2, following a curved shot critical from Byleth on the boss with also seems unrealistic. The other option is trying to kill the death knight (Maybe sacrifice mission assistance Ferdinand?) and THEN a Curved shot critical hit which maxes out at ~20 percent. We are looking at sub-5% success rates at best for chapter completion at that point... The 3 turn assuming this game is 2RN is over 80%.

That's a fair point. Even I don't go for absolute low turn count. I'm not sure where to draw the line, but I arbitrarily set it to where a LTC strategy can be reliably replicated. The strategies I use have almost always reliably yielded the turn counts I listed earlier (before you start hitting the 1 turn boss clears where it's not that hard to figure out). The chapter 1 strategy in 5 turns is hard for me to justify because in addition to those low crits and crest procs, you need the levels ups to cooperate to hit certain benchmarks for the next few chapters (although it's really just preventing low side of averages). You also don't have divine pulse at this point. I'm not sure what the crest proc rates are as well at this point. It was already hard enough to rig killer weapon critical hits and making sure sub 70s hits don't miss even with divine pulse for 2 turning Sylvains paralogue with chapter 7 units, I can't imagine doing this. FYI my chapter 7-5 turn is probably suboptimal as well and Ingrid's paralogue is probably 1 turnable with a dancer later on as well (and massive magic herb Lysithea abuse). I now understand chapter 3's 5 turn, it's reliable as well on GD. If you can get Leonie, Raphael, and Claude strided on turns 2 and 4 (Claude needs 16 strength/10 speed minimum with iron bow before rally strength), have Leonie behind him use curve shot afterward (Marianne likely doesn't have Thoron at this point). On BL you can use Felix and Ashe and Annette. On BE you can use Edelgard, Bern (needs deadeye and personal skill) and Hubert/Dorothea probably. I don't understand the 2 turn for chapter 4 strategy or why Felix and Dimitri need rigged strength? Isn't the limiting factor movement? I'm pretty sure Lysithea can hit warp by then though (Which requires resets so she gets both choir events and lots of perfects on teachings). I'm still not sure how to reliably get the statboosters either. I've tried to influence the RN when before planting the week before, but it didn't work. Same. And also interested in knowing. BTW: is it Bern getting a deadeye critical with steel bow?

It's worth noting that Ignatz also has a strength in authority and was able to reach B during chapter 7. This was relevant because it meant I had 2 sources of stride for chapter 7 (after doing Sylvain's paralogue) which was really useful for chapter 7 when he was a cavalier (making a 4 turn feasible...probably). Honestly your comment about Ignatz should probably extend more to Lorenz than anyone since he doesn't really offer anything unique and does mediocre as both a mage and physical unit. At least Ignatz's unique things have been really helpful in route maps in most paralogues.

Thanks for reading. Been working on this on/off since Maddening mode came out on the Best Route. The rules for the run: -Playing on New Game. -Monastery is used to its full capacity, no DLC, no deaths. -All Paralogues and quests must be completed. -No Aux battles except the mandatory one Monastery usage RNG: -Rigged 100% bullhead capture rate for chapter 2 and 3 maps. -Rigged Lysithea getting both Choir events and getting at least one perfect per tutoring prior to chapter 5. Rigged Raphael to get at least one perfect per tutoring prior to chapter 5. -Characters recruited with RNG: Linhardt, Annette, Petra. Everyone else recruited via requirements -Rigging gardening stat boosts to make sure I met benchmarks throughout the game. -Some rigging required for Byleth's weapon levels early on -I also rigged level ups (within reason) where I prioritized Strength>Speed with Byleth, Speed>Strength with Claude, and Magic with Lysithea, Linhardt, Manuela, and Flayn. -Hit A+ professor level during chapter 11 WEXP benchmarks: -Byleth: C bows, C lances, D flying, and C Armor before chapter 7; B lances, B flying, B authority before chapter 13; A+ flying, A authority ASAP after she meets requirements for Wyvern Lord/Rider and Falcon Knight levels post timeskip. Need to have A swords by Endgame. -Ignatz needs D authority before the chapter 2 Aux battle; A authority before chapter 11. -Claude needs to be a Wyvern Rider before chapter 11. -Lysithea needs to have B Faith and 16 magic by chapter 4; Bishop and 32 magic before chapter 11, will need ~13-14 range lategame -Raphael needs D authority before chapter 2, B Armor by chapter 5, level 10 and C axe or Gauntlets before endgame -Hilda needs B armor and Pegasus by chapter 7, D authority by chapter 9, C authority before timeskip -Flayn needs B faith and 16 magic before chapter 7; She needs 28 magic by chapter 21 -Annette needs C+ authority by chapter 7, C lances and D flight by chapter 11. -Linhardt needs Warp before chapter 11, bishop after timeskip, and incrementally increases to range with 32 magic by endgame. -Manuela needs Warp before chapter 11, bishop after timeskip, and pass Wyvern Rider before chapter 19, with 24 magic by endgame. -Felix and Sylvain need to be Cavalier before chapter 7 -Petra needs to be a Pegasus before chapter 7 -Ingrid needs Rally Magic before chapter 10. -Marianne needs to have 14 charm before the dance competition -Leonie needs to be a Pegasus before chapter 13 to ensure she survives. EXP allocation/Optimal Recruitment times: -Prioritize EXP Lysithia > Byleth > Claude and then Hilda or Leonie (depending on who you choose to use longterm) chapters 1-5 -Recruit Catherine and Sylvain during chapter 5. Consider investing EXP in Catherine for longterm. -Recruit Petra, Shamir and Felix during chapter 6. Consider investing EXP Petra for longterm. -Recruit Ingrid and Annette during chapter 7. Start investing in authority for both. -Recruit Linhardt at chapter 8. -Recruit Manuela during chapter 10. -Recruit Ashe, Dorothea, Hanneman, and Bernie between chapter 8-11. Literally just stridebots for their paralogues. -Recruit Cyril during chapter 11. Good filler for chapter 11-14. -Recruit Alois, Ferdinand, Mercedes, and Caspar during chapter 12. All are good lategame filler except Mercedes. Further optimization: -Did not prioritize EXP during mid-game with plans for lategame in mind very well. I allocated too much EXP to Sylvain, Annette and Felix when it should have been prioritized more to Petra, Catherine, Flayn, and Hilda instead. -Recruited Alois and Ferdinand in chapter 11 instead of chapter 12. -Doing the Merchant and the other chapter 5 quest later would probably save 2 non-tracked turns. Unit review here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AefGq6XD4na3Co_BbcusCh-hy5ZOsbDV5yf-1bVivsA/edit?usp=sharing Strategies are outlined here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dsJb-lbInaXaBpDVB4aLL3AAglc5gODUopL8ns-iNJ8/edit?usp=sharing Turncounts are here: https://imgur.com/a/LrZj37q Some Endgame unit stats here: https://imgur.com/a/gYlaMeg tl; dr Main Game: 61 turns; Paralogues: 31 turns; 3 mandatory Aux; 11 from quests.

Yeah your mage is probably better early on, but Rally speed was needed for certain boss kill stat thresholds and route maps. That being said I can see why that seems like a weird thing to value. I guess I rated B- and C tier as characters that struggle to 1RKO in some way for most of the game (and Flayn and Manuela) and ordered it by how they might be able to contribute something else useful and potential. Lorenz, Hubert, and Annette may be a bit better on foot, but I think characters in B- are better because they are more functional on mounts (if losing magic). Ignatz is better on a horse than they are which is still 2/3 of the game. I'm also just not sure that Ashe and Bern are a tier better than he is... Also regarding Raphael: I just think SMITE on a dragon with okay combat and durability is at least as useful as Flayn's Rescue or Manuela's [Very late] Warp which is why he's where he's at. If he had good speed he would be probably where Sylvain and Ferdinand are. I do admit B- and C might need to be reordered. Any thoughts what your order would be with your experience with these characters? I understand why people dislike LTC. Although this game is one of the most reliable ones to LTC. Rigging boss kills with crits are pretty rare and the stat benchmarks are in general not hard to hit (although sometimes it requires rigging certain characters to not get stat screwed). Hubert is good early. Raphael doesn't 1RKO on enemy phase reliably. Ignatz isn't great, I agree. However, after he grabs a mount (neutral in lances and riding), he's at worst functional and specializes in the best weapon type and somewhat more useful than the mages below him on the list. I'm not sure I would rate him a tier below Bern and Ashe is the reason, but I'm open to discussion about it.

BTW characters within tiers were just alphabetized, not ordered by strength. I'm working on ordering characters within tiers now. I've now reordered it within tiers to fine tune it now. Controversially, I put Dedue higher because he can function as a Cav (with SMITE) and maybe Paladin someday? You can start since day 1 at least; D riding/C lances is definitely achieveable by chapter 5 when everyone is promoting. Bows are neutral for him as well so C is doable pretty quickly. I feel like it's overall better than the mages with bad spell lists.

That makes sense. I think Lysithea, Felix, Ashe, Ignatz, Raphael are hit pretty hard by this and would maybe move down a tier? But if you work toward getting a B rank quickly you can probably get them by chapter 5. I'm not sure if the list would change THAT much though. Lysithea maybe to A. Felix maybe to B (basically Catherine level of stats with wrong growths). Ashe, Ignatz, Raphael, Caspar since they basically become Cyril level of not being useful--maybe C+. That makes sense. I understand now that aggroing requires all the enemies to be defeated by player phase 3. I redid the prologue with a slight alteration to give Byleth an extra kill that makes sense. I think chapter 5 should be doable with the movement battlions like lure to move the boss closer.