Imuabicus der Fertige
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Posts posted by Imuabicus der Fertige
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Guidelines:
2.1.) mention the diffculty on which you rate the unit
2.2.) what classes your unit went through, what skills they had and so on; don´t consider obviously suboptimal builds.
2.3.) no DLC rings, no non-unit DLC bonuses
2.4.) no grinding in skirmishes
2.5.) no rng abuse (no resetting for bond rings)
2.6.) cooking is allowed
2.7.) ratings to be given in the format X/10
2.8.) if it isn´t mentioned above, it´s fair game
2.9.) no "Kagetsu exists and obsoletes Lapis, 0/10", explain your rating
Unit: Panette
Class: Berserker
Lvl HP STR MAG DEX SPD LCK DEF RES BLD
Bases: 1 46 25 3 19 13 11 7 11 11
T. Bases: 16 17 12 3 13 7 8 5 9 2
Growths: / 75 45 10 40 25 30 15 20 15
Personal Skill: If unit’s HP is not at max after combat, grants Crit+10 as long as unit’s HP stays below max.
Innate Proficiency: Knife, Axe
SP: 1500
Support Bonuses:
C Hit+15
B Hit+15, Avoid+5
A Hit+20, Avoid+5
S Hit+30, Avoid+5Tools and mo stats:
Average Stats - Fire Emblem: Engage (FE17) (triangleattack.com)
Engage Numbers - Google Tabellen
Rating: 9
Next unit on Monday
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20 minutes ago, Jotari said:
The only one that really bothers me specifically is Knight. Since knights are just as much associated with their cavalry aspects (and indeed is the origin of their name and stuff) than the armoured aspects. So much so that most of the characters that are knights within the narrative of the games themselves are more often Cavalry and Paladins. And in Japanese, I believe, they've always been called Armoured Knights.
mrw no squire, no heavy bois
20 minutes ago, Jotari said:The issue with Sword/Axe/Lance Fighter that I see is that, in addition to being very generic, it's kind of limiting. By having more distinct (if not entirely accurate names) you get to have stuff like Myrmidons and Mercenaries. Two different sword infantry that nonetheless play very differently based on their stat lines. Even if Mercenary is a very generic term for a large variety of different soldiers and Myrmidon is a weird throwback to ancient Greece that makes no sense, it beats having Fast Sword Fighter and Bulky Sword Fighter.
Eh, Hinata/Hana, Arthur/Charlotte, Setsuna/Takumi, Effie/Bennie, Hinoka/Subaki, Odin/Nyx, Saizo/Kaze/Kagero, Hayato/Orochi (growth unit Hayato may be) are all pretty different units in my opinion, even when considering the quality gaps in retainer-lord (aforementioned Setsuna/Takumi, Hinoka/Subaki but especially Beruka/Camilla, Peri/Xander)
Emphasis on personal growths over class growths and correspondingly distributed high bases should make for Navarre/Ogmas scenarios aplenty, even with only one (base) class.
Though terrain costs, individual modifiers (think the Fates S rank classes bonuses) might get lost, though base classes got no business having the latter I think.
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1 minute ago, Jotari said:
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying you dislike both Myrmidon and Sword Fighter as names? If so, what should we call them?
I dislike "real world" inspired class names that go beyond the scope or have nothing to do with the real world implication, is a way I´d put it I think. I´m fine with Halberdier, Archer, even Sniper etc. but stuff like Troubadour, Valkyrie, Melusine feel strange. I also dislike it when they give names like Aura, Siegfried, Wille Glanz (a literal nonsense name), Excalibur and so on, to items though I wouldn´t be able to explain why. At the same time, Bishops wielding holy magic and staves is also fine with me, weirdly. Similarily I wouldn´t like Hussars, Curassiers, Landsknecht, Doppelsöldner, Dragoon, Keshig, Janissary and the like, because these names refer to more or less specific troops (or are just outside the time setting of FE´s so far anyway).
I´m fine with Sword/Axe/Lance Fighter/Rider/Armor at the same time I think it´s a tedious if not worse a boring naming system. I thought a base class Soldier with access to sword, axe and lance specialises into Sword/Axe/Lance Fighter who then promote into their final form of... whatever one choses.
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I´m kinda of the opinion that magic/physical hybrid classes should either be lore bound to a nation or as a personal class to a character.
So maybe Camilla isn´t a Malig Knight but The Malig Knight and her weapon could ´ve been the magic damage equivalent axe to Siegfried and the Raijinto (real strong Bolt Axe, I guess). Same with Hinoka but a Bolt Lance, though with another class.
I´m gonna say, the more I think about it, the less I like FEs using class names like Myrmidon, Paladin, Assassin at the same time, Axe Fighter/Rider, Sword Fighter/Rider, Lance Fighter/Rider just don´t have even remotely the same ring to it.
I also don´t think any healer class should be stuck with just healing. At least let them have a butter knife. For that sweet dodge stat.
I´ve also been thinking a new class of bows, the DS inspired Greatbow: high damage, high range, can´t double, a wee bit inaccurate maybe, impacting the enemies movement range.
Spoiler -
Guidelines:
2.1.) mention the diffculty on which you rate the unit
2.2.) what classes your unit went through, what skills they had and so on; don´t consider obviously suboptimal builds.
2.3.) no DLC rings, no non-unit DLC bonuses
2.4.) no grinding in skirmishes
2.5.) no rng abuse (no resetting for bond rings)
2.6.) cooking is allowed
2.7.) ratings to be given in the format X/10
2.8.) if it isn´t mentioned above, it´s fair game
2.9.) no "Kagetsu exists and obsoletes Lapis, 0/10", explain your rating
Unit: Timerra
Class: Sentinel (promotes to Pickett, with Class Skill: Sandstorm: While making a physical attack, may calculate damage with 150% of Def instead of Str. Trigger %=Dex.)
Lvl HP STR MAG DEX SPD DEF RES LCK BLD
Bases: 18 35 14 6 17 18 16 8 10 5
T. Bases: 18 11 6 5 12 11 8 7 7 1
Growths: / 55 25 25 45 45 30 30 30 10
Personal Skill: Inflicts Crit-5 on foes within 3 spaces.
Innate Proficiency: Lance
SP: 1500
Support Bonuses:
C Hit+10, Critical+3
B Hit+10, Critical+3, Dodge+5
A Hit+10, Critical+6, Dodge+5
S Hit+10, Critical+12, Dodge+5Tools and mo stats:
Engage Numbers - Google Tabellen
Average Stats - Fire Emblem: Engage (FE17) (triangleattack.com)
Rating: 5
Next unit on Thursday
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Guidelines:
2.1.) mention the diffculty on which you rate the unit
2.2.) what classes your unit went through, what skills they had and so on; don´t consider obviously suboptimal builds.
2.3.) no DLC rings, no non-unit DLC bonuses
2.4.) no grinding in skirmishes
2.5.) no rng abuse (no resetting for bond rings)
2.6.) cooking is allowed
2.7.) ratings to be given in the format X/10
2.8.) if it isn´t mentioned above, it´s fair game
2.9.) no "Kagetsu exists and obsoletes Lapis, 0/10", explain your rating
Unit: Bunet
Class: Great Knight
Lvl HP STR MAG DEX SPD DEF RES LCK BLD
Bases: 1 41 15 5 15 9 20 8 13 11
T. Bases: 16 15 6 3 7 4 7 6 10 3
Growths: / 65 30 10 40 35 45 25 40 10
Personal Skill: On eating a packed lunch, unit may obtain another of the same item. Trigger %=Lck.
Innate Proficiency: Sword
SP: 1200
Support Bonuses:
C Hit+10, Critical+3
B Hit+10, Critical+3, Dodge+5
A Hit+10, Critical+6, Dodge+5
S Hit+10, Critical+12, Dodge+5Tools and mo stats:
Engage Numbers - Google Tabellen
Average Stats - Fire Emblem: Engage (FE17) (triangleattack.com)
Rating: 2
Next unit on Monday
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Standing in terrain and moving (unit placed in forest at beginning of turn moves into another tile) should consume the additional Movement cost. No reason why walking through is more diffcult but standing in it is just fine.
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RIP Lae´zel, she squared up but she ain´t Her. Vlaakiths Will won´t be done. Maybe I should try speak with dead on her, just for fun.
Imagine getting the Nightsong before even getting to Moonrise Tower, couldn´t be me.
Fighting is good so far (normal, I think Balanced it´s called) but goddam do I have some accuraccy issues. The Meenlock fight was brutal. Feels like I´m missing 3/5 of my attacks.
Contrary to seemingly popular opinion, I´ve had my share of problems with visual bugs, things not loading in when loading in a new area or when returning via warping, cutscenes playing twice. Nothing nessecarily gamebreaking, but hella annoying when you want to go over the bridge or in a building that does not yet exist.
+1 for dog and owlbear
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Guidelines:
2.1.) mention the diffculty on which you rate the unit
2.2.) what classes your unit went through, what skills they had and so on; don´t consider obviously suboptimal builds.
2.3.) no DLC rings, no non-unit DLC bonuses
2.4.) no grinding in skirmishes
2.5.) no rng abuse (no resetting for bond rings)
2.6.) cooking is allowed
2.7.) ratings to be given in the format X/10
2.8.) if it isn´t mentioned above, it´s fair game
2.9.) no "Kagetsu exists and obsoletes Lapis, 0/10", explain your rating
Unit: Pandreo
Class: High Priest
Lvl HP STR MAG DEX SPD DEF RES LCK BLD
Bases: 1 34 7 16 18 17 8 22 14 8
T. Bases: 16 14 4 8 10 11 5 12 9 4
Growths: / 60 5 30 45 45 15 55 30 15
Personal Skill: Grants a bonus to Hit and Avo equal to 3× the number of allies and foes within 2 spaces.
Innate Proficiency: Staff
SP: 1200
Support Bonuses:
C Hit+10, Dodge+5
B Hit+15, Dodge+5
A Hit+15, Dodge+10
S Hit+15, Dodge+20Tools and mo stats:
Engage Numbers - Google Tabellen
Average Stats - Fire Emblem: Engage (FE17) (triangleattack.com)
Rating: 8.21
Next unit on Thusrday
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Eh, I gave up playing solo... planning the perfect ambush is too much fun and i wouldn´t know how to do some fights solo anyway.
What squad is everyone running? I reclassed Shoadowheart to a Life Cleric for more dakka everyone else (Lae´zel, Wyll) remains the same.
6 hours ago, Parrhesia said:I, uh, did not see any option for a non-Dark Urge custom character, so I'm the Dark Urge, and discovered this only after asking people what they thought about,
I messed around with a Dark Urge Lolth-Sworn Drow Bard and the dialogue options feel like they pull you in 5 different directions all the time: kill, insult, (racially) discriminate, use brainbug, bardthings.
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Re: inventory... yeah it´s getting pretty bad with scrolls, potions, items that seem important but I got no clue about them... would be pretty cool if 1) we could autodesignate containers for certain things and 2) the autostacking worked properly.
missing a roll in this game makes me relive Darkest Dungeon pains I had forgotten
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Guidelines:
2.1.) mention the diffculty on which you rate the unit
2.2.) what classes your unit went through, what skills they had and so on; don´t consider obviously suboptimal builds.
2.3.) no DLC rings, no non-unit DLC bonuses
2.4.) no grinding in skirmishes
2.5.) no rng abuse (no resetting for bond rings)
2.6.) cooking is allowed
2.7.) ratings to be given in the format X/10
2.8.) if it isn´t mentioned above, it´s fair game
2.9.) no "Kagetsu exists and obsoletes Lapis, 0/10", explain your rating
Unit: Fogado
Class: Sentinel(Promotes to Cupido, with PS: When countering, unit may deal extra damage = half of damage taken. Trigger %=Dex.)
Lvl HP STR MAG DEX SPD DEF RES LCK BLD
Bases: 17 33 12 7 17 18 10 11 8 8
T. Bases: 17 12 7 6 8 11 6 8 6 2
Growths: / 60 30 25 30 55 30 35 25 10
Personal Skill: During combat with a foe who was also unit’s most recent opponent, inflicts Crit-10 on that foe.
Innate Proficiency: Bow
SP: 1200
Support Bonuses:
C Hit+10, Avoid+5
B Hit+10, Critical+3, Avoid+5
A Hit+10, Critical+3, Avoid+10
S Hit+10, Critical+3, Avoid+20Tools and mo stats:
Engage Numbers - Google Tabellen
Average Stats - Fire Emblem: Engage (FE17) (triangleattack.com)
Rating: 7.1
Next unit on Monday
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11 hours ago, lenticular said:
Stuff like inventory management is a frustrating chore,
I´m using backpacks and the like to group items together to help a bit with that. It´s probably way worse with 4 characters though.
11 hours ago, lenticular said:Or the overall balance seems off; without much (any?) disincentive from taking long rests whenever you like, a lot of resource management from the original DnD rules just isn't there, and it can feel weird sometimes.
I´m not familiar with either BG or DnD but so far I haven´t seen a reason for resting, but that´s probably more important for spellcasters.
My character is constanly saying they´re tired, but like the show must go on.
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...or so he says, the game having been in EA since... 2020?
Granted I haven´t touched the game since... patch 6 I think and I haven´t gotten very far thanks to an unholy download (still in druid cave) but how´s the game treat you all so far and what are you playing if you don´t mind sharing? I´m playing a basic human ranger, though solo.
I will say it looks a lot less... glitchy, especially the cutscenes but the game still feels kinda wonky with the transitions between gameplay-cutscenes and I just had a Bugbear t-pose on me for the entire fight.
I also made the mistake of glancing at the steam forum... naw.
I may have accidentially blown up Lae´zel. -
13 hours ago, Integrity said:
It used to be basically-impossible - when the studio was solvent, one of the achievements was to have a beer with the devs in real life and give them your Steam profile so they could award it to you.
lifehack for free beer tho
5d chess move, tbh
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7 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said:
You think that's bad? Check this out. Took this photo at the supermarket a few weeks ago and never got around to sharing it.
Austrian confectioneries: observe
Mohr (moor) being the og term for the muslims of iberia as I understand. Today not so much.
17 minutes ago, BrightBow said:It's not as bad as "Gift" meaning "poison.
I tried looking it up, gift in medieval german still means both poison and gift ("something you give").
It apparently also means the date on which a document was signed? That I don´t get.
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Guidelines:
2.1.) mention the diffculty on which you rate the unit
2.2.) what classes your unit went through, what skills they had and so on; don´t consider obviously suboptimal builds.
2.3.) no DLC rings, no non-unit DLC bonuses
2.4.) no grinding in skirmishes
2.5.) no rng abuse (no resetting for bond rings)
2.6.) cooking is allowed
2.7.) ratings to be given in the format X/10
2.8.) if it isn´t mentioned above, it´s fair game
2.9.) no "Kagetsu exists and obsoletes Lapis, 0/10", explain your rating
Unit: Zelkov
Class: Thief
Lvl HP STR MAG DEX SPD DEF RES LCK BLD
Bases: 17 35 15 3 19 19 14 5 7 9
T. Bases: 17 13 10 3 9 9 8 3 5 5
Growths: / 65 35 15 40 35 35 15 25 10
Personal Skill: If foe initiates combat, inflicts Hit-10 on that foe during combat.
Innate Proficiency: Knife
SP: 1000
Support Bonuses:
C Hit+15
B Hit+15, Avoid+5
A Hit+20, Avoid+5
S Hit+30, Avoid+5Tools and mo stats:
Engage Numbers - Google Tabellen
Average Stats - Fire Emblem: Engage (FE17) (triangleattack.com)
Rating: 5.375
Next unit on Thursday
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7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:
I was inspired to catch up with all the ratings I've missed. If these ratings are too late to "count" that's fine, but I figure in case they are still being counted, it'd be better to put them all in one place than post a separate rating in each thread. So with apologies for the wall of text:
I do update the beginning post and was thinking of doing the unthinkable and necro it when done, but I don´t include ratings given after the day the next unit is posted.
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I only got 2 games to 100%, that being Brotato and Thronefall
Thronefall ( 12.2 hours, Grizzly Games)
The name of the game is short and sweet, you control a king and build your castle and defend it from preset waves of enemies of differing varieties of speed, damage, range and HP. By playing and scoring you get further unlocks, those being 2 additional weapons, a bunch of meta-perks chosen pre-map as well as enemy modifiers, which affect total score and upgrade paths for your buildings on map. There´s some fun stuff in there, like trampling the enemy under the hooves of your horse.
You don´t chose what to build where, that´s preset, but you do chose what to build when and that boils down to more money sooner, everything else leads to pain. There´s 4 maps, one being a preset tutorial map, every other map you can choose what you wanna do; however each map has some quests, challenging the player to play through it with certain enemy modifiers and sometimes specific weapons or reaching a ceratin score.
Fuck the enemy HP modifier, all my homies hate the HP modifier.
There´s 9 achievements, starting with kill a man, win every maps quest and ending with win everything. The achievments come quite naturally when playing.
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On 8/8/2023 at 8:48 AM, Eltosian Kadath said:On 8/7/2023 at 11:31 AM, Imuabicus der Fertige said:
how macabre
see, the more you hold yourself to what´s being told instead of headcanoning what you want, the better, because you wouldn´t come up with these takes
I got that take entirely from you, in the OP
On 7/24/2023 at 7:49 PM, Imuabicus der Fertige said:instead of having to deal with scavenging of your favorite units corpse.
the macabre was referencing your comparison of cutting scavenging to cutting before copious amounts of sex, a worrying comparison
do not worry, your tendencies are safe with me 🤫
On 8/8/2023 at 8:48 AM, Eltosian Kadath said:Gameplay is a form/part of storytelling, the same way text is, the same way video is, the same way music is, the same way voice acting is, etc. I have tries to point out how obvious it is that there are massive story holes in these games if you pretend gameplay is incapable of telling a story. Take the example I used just a moment ago of Path of Radiance, where there is no fancy cutscene for Ashnard's death, or lines in later dialogues pointlessly confirming his death, even his death quote doesn't make clear his death, he only dies in the gameplay; are you really trying to contend that this means Ashnard doesn't die at the end of Path of Radiance's story? Who even killed Ashnard in "the story", if you ignore the story told by the gameplay? As I said before, if you actually believed this, videogames would be a terrible medium for storytelling, but you do present yourself like you are capable of understanding the stories gameplay is telling, despite these claims.
What do you mean Ashnards death isn´t confirmed? Ashnard has a death quote on his map, death officiated, story told. Haven´t witnessed the after battle dialogs I suppose? What, the player army holding a fucken speech in the enemies castle isn´t reason to think so? These are things the writers directly tell you through dialog.
Who killed Frederick II. of Babenberg he asks and who killed Ottokar II. of Bohemia he wonders. Answers he will find, not.
If gameplay tells stories, then what story does it tell when I dodge in a souls-like? What story does it tell, when Corrin takes with them a Vulnerary?
On 8/8/2023 at 8:48 AM, Eltosian Kadath said:Your OP indicates you know what stories are being told by permadeath, despite your nonsensical claims about gameplay being physically incapable of telling story. Plus, I already pointed out a handful of instances where the story outside of gameplay already does engage with permadeath in my earlier post, you just didn't actually care about that, and doing the research for a multipage long list seems like a real waste of time, especially with how insistent you are in burying your head in the sand.
From a gameplay perspective you miss the key point that units, even in the same role, are not simply worse, but generally have other difference between them. Almost always they have stats, or weapon ranks, or personal skills, or classes, etc. that give them a slightly different spin on the role, so permadeath forces you out of your comfort zone to explore the differences between units. Additionally you might get into situations where you really don't have someone that can fill the role you lost and instead have to use a unit that fills a completely different role (or you chose to use someone that fills a different role for other reasons), which then changes up your strategy going forward.
Underlined: I accounted for this in my second paragraph, the very same paragragh you dismissed with "uhm, akschually itsh shuper hard to softlock", which naturally your argument didn´t extend beyond the games that involved fails safe such as Athos, Shadow Dragon, designed to prevent or alleviate such scenarios.
Your inability to comprehend that I have not made an absolute statement, outside of gameplay is not story, in this regard and your insistence to make my own story, in essence telling me I may as well just take a couple dirt piles, give em names and shove em around and see that as a story, something I tried to tell you I wasn´t interested in as they are my stories which I know and not other peoples stories, which I don´t know and are thus of interest to me, has seemingly severly hindered your ability to engage with the question I loosely defined and posed to this forum. That being the question of how much, if at all, unit death in both story (death quotes, changes in supports) and gameplay (unit loss, inventory loss, inability to access events) are used in combination to create yet a new path (as told by the writers behind the game) in both story (one example could be actual events of mourning such as burials) and gameplay (classes, skills, weapon ranks, scavenging your prized equipment reminiscent of SD 24x) the answer to which was a mix of not really, an example of this stance being Integritys answer and well it does have changing supports and then there were AnonymousSpeed and you with answers that boil down to "just don´t reset bro" and "DIY storytelling", which is a reduction of what has been asked to such a degree, that in hindsight it has me stumped as to how these are conclusions you two could have reached, because these so clearly miss the point.
And you are right, I did not give any and all examples of FE scripts changing with a units deaths, because firstly that goes simply beyond the scope of what I am willing to invest in terms of time, secondly it would probably drive away people otherwise willing to engage with the thread and thirdly I would have assumed and from my experience with interacting with the members of SF and outside of select examples, that the good people of this forum would generally have the intelligence and awareness to understand from what has been posted over the course of this thread beginning with my OP and having pretty large scale answers within the next 6 posts. I did not think that a discussion like this, fueled primarily by my curiousity what other people think and written up in the span of an hour, would need this sort of 100k signs with quotes and receipts kind of effort.
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Guidelines:
2.1.) mention the diffculty on which you rate the unit
2.2.) what classes your unit went through, what skills they had and so on; don´t consider obviously suboptimal builds.
2.3.) no DLC rings, no non-unit DLC bonuses
2.4.) no grinding in skirmishes
2.5.) no rng abuse (no resetting for bond rings)
2.6.) cooking is allowed
2.7.) ratings to be given in the format X/10
2.8.) if it isn´t mentioned above, it´s fair game
2.9.) no "Kagetsu exists and obsoletes Lapis, 0/10", explain your rating
Unit: Kagetsu
Class: Swordmaster
Lvl HP STR MAG DEX SPD DEF RES LCK BLD
Bases: 1 35 17 5 22 22 14 10 17 9
T. Bases: 16 14 11 4 13 11 10 7 13 3
Growths: / 60 30 15 50 50 40 25 40 10
Personal Skill: If unit initiates combat, inflicts Avo-10 on foe during combat.
Innate Proficiency: Sword
SP: 1000
Support Bonuses:
C Hit+10, Avoid+5
B Hit+10, Critical+3, Avoid+5
A Hit+10, Critical+3, Avoid+5, Dodge+5
S Hit+10, Critical+6, Avoid+5, Dodge+5Tools and mo stats:
Average Stats - Fire Emblem: Engage (FE17) (triangleattack.com)
Engage Numbers - Google Tabellen
Rating: 8.58
Next unit on Monday
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Easy, just give the enemies 0 dmg so noone can die.
I don´t see why Marth dying should be the end of the story. It´s the story of the war against the Shadow Dragon and not of Fire Emblem: blue-haired-boy-who-lost-his-kingdom-goes-to-another-kingdom-finds-allies-and-acquires-the-means-of-dragon-slaying and unless I´m misremembering the Falchion is by no means an Anri-family exclusive. Hurr-durr, Tiki and Naga being more failsafes. Malledus is still there, Jeigan too, Caeda, Hardin, Nyna, Minerva once her lil sis is safe... the show can go on.
Permadeath would be meaningful if there was a game over ending and not just a screen telling you to not pass go.
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41 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:
This reminds me, we were also like the only country that protested quite strongly at the Anschluss.
... which, I actually don't know why.
Just the general principle of respecting a country's sovereignty? Lingering guilt over the Maximiliam thing?
I don't know...
Some reasons I found:
-) Mexico saw itself as some sort of solidarity with the oppressed state and pürotesting against something that happens on another continent... free prestige I guess
-) Mexico apparently had some weapons/ammunitions deals with Austria, which apparently these weapons then went to Spain, but I can´t really find much more than short notes on the side.
-) The protest note was delivered the day after some foreign oil refineries or similar was nationalized and intended as a stay in yo lane to the US of A.
Funnily enough, Mexico protested at the UN in French:
Spoiler
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Got any interest in Thronefall, EA as it is?
Looks a wee bit like Bad North, but more limited in scope.
Jotari's Three Tier Branching Class Tree (now with Engage classes)
in Concepts
Posted
Hero has Handaxe, SM has... Rutger?
I´m looking at the og Ogma/Navarre and Navarre seems like an almost strict downgrade? Aside from weapon level. And in SD, they even have the same weapon level, but Navarre gained 8 Lck and Ogma +2 lvl and +2 HP? The hell happened here?