Wonderie

If you don't care then this discussion shouldn't have started in the first place.

I was referring to more in a visual aspect as opposed to diving into their personality. However I don’t recall Camilla being sexually assertive or have sexual conversation either. Her voice however (JP version) may appear sexually provocative though which, I admittedly enjoy. I did read somewhere that you haven’t played FEfates so I can see why you may not know the full details. Which is fine and one of the main reason why I was mainly referring more onto the physical appearance in case one party didn’t play the other FE platform. The main problem is when people have sour taste to the naked cleavage, etc which is fine, but what about naked men in the series? I see no heat in that area but suddenly there is for ladies? I disagree with the double standard and not with the choice or the intention of character design. And it’s made clear you support both gender to dress freely so I don’t see anything to go on from there. I can understand it can get tiring responding and I take no offence as I can empathize where your coming from. Even deleting it took a while just to retain my part of the reply; doesn’t help I am on an IPad though. In contrast I’m glad my part is shortened. I agree with the last point, I like to see more diversity in body type and both genders, or all genders in the game. Yes double standard is absurd. This is what I was referring to when I said absurd, the double standard. How can I type it in a way that will allows you to understand I am debating about the double standard? I’m sorry to hear that he is power fantasy and not empowering due to the patriarchal society that west have. I hope you know power-fantasy is somewhat derogatory. This is going along with what you stated and not what I know of to clear any future misunderstanding regarding patriarchy society of the west. I also wish to avoid any political debate so I will not delve deeper into this said subject. You have done exactly what I asked you not to do. But let me rephrase it in a way that may enlighten you of what I meant. When I typed: ”It will be helpful if you didn’t just highlight the word stereotypical to reply to me and and explain what’s women and men wants in their characters and how it effects character development.” I meant, please don’t go off topic by highlighting one word to reply so you can add in your input that have nothing to do with the main subject of debate. it is going off topic. I apologize as words of text can lead to misunderstandings however, this is what I truly meant. I am honestly not interested in diving into other topic other than how I felt about the double standard that was presented here in this particular forum. Yes. Good for you? And is this stereotype from the west? How unfortunate for you? I believe there’s Nowi? Nah? Laura? Cordelia? Fire Emblem certainly didn’t forget to include their body type. Also Fire Emblem is from Japan so maybe your fine for now? I hope you find the type you like from the selection of Fire Emblem Heroes. I can’t say the same for other gacha games though. I only stated why I like buff men as you kept insisting that women stereotypcally likes male such as Loki. Which is not always the case which, is why it is stereotypical and it does not always stems from the truth. Like you proven my point clearly, if you see that “straight men likes big breast” is the stereotype and you say otherwise, you clearly proven my point. This is going off topic once again, my main point is disagreeing with the display of double standard. I hope you sincerely understand the main debate I was having; and at this point me and you, can agree to disagree.

What is your argument? My argument is regarding the double standard. The double standard is absurd as Hawkeye is allowed to be shirtless due to what you justify as empowerment, while someone like Camilla is looked down upon as nothing more than a “fan service.” When she too, could be empowering to women. What Im saying is, perspective differs and what you may see as “fanservice” ie Camilla, may not appear so for someone like me. Hawkeye seems empowering to you, however to me he appears as eyecandy. Fire Emblem have successfully executed both genders to be appealing to both parties or however many parties there is, and people going crazy about Camilla etc pessimistically, while the male characters are seen as empowering as norm, seems rather odd to me. The double standard is there and I disagree at this very reason. You bringing up character development and so on, is very off topic for me. Have you gone through what @Alkaid have commented regarding your previous reply? It will be helpful if you didn’t just highlight the word stereotypical to reply to me and explain what women and men wants in their characters and how it effects the character development. 🙃 Also I like buffed men; please don’t assume for the rest of women out their that there taste is with someone like Loki. You can’t just “stereotypically” assume us to like one particular type; sure someone may have the taste for a guy like him but not every women. And there is a lot of women in this world. Business won’t just “stereotypically” assume what the consumers wants and design the character off stereotypical assumption either. However that is a whole new topic that I won’t touch and stay with the double standard debate.

Exactly. Once again the word stereotypical. Please read what @Alkaid have said previously. This is going in circles.

I can look at Hawkeye and believe he's sexy while you may think its empowering. You see skimpy clothes and large breast to appear to titillate men while I can look at it as lady confident in their own body. It's a mean of difference in taste and perspective; and also low key double standard. I've stated this before that was replied to you, that you didn't highlight but I will state it again: the justification you given to Hawkeye, someone else may put equal value justification for Loki and Camilla. I am here to say I disagree with the double standard which have been unfortunately normalized. You say Pent is stereotypically popular popular with women, and it is what you just said, stereotypically. I'll leave it at that. I'm sorry you go through withdrawal due to skin exposure or a close up of a female body parts. But at least it saved the series from being buried in the coffin.

(I have failed to see the other two reply so I am replying on this post, I apologize.) No it doesn't. First paragraph is meant to say I can comprehend that you are in a position where you want to give empathy to the said perspectives. Second paragraph isn't meant to be dismissal, it is me saying I fail to give sympathy even with the given perspective. It's not really a dismissal, its my point of view. They see it wild, I don't. You understand why there's two different perspective, I do too, but I am on the, no, Fire Emblem isn't a wild content. Look, if you are fine with Hawkeye's naked body due to your own justification, that's fine. If Camilla and Loki is offensive, censor it yourself by looking away or covering them up with your hands; I don't know. (I will add this here though, the justification you given to Hawkeye, someone else may put equal value justification for Loki and Camilla. I am here to say I disagree with the double standard which have been unfortunately normalized.) I can agree with this conclusion ٩(｡•́‿•̀｡)۶

I don't know if this will be considered unpopular opinion but, I miss Kozaki Yusuke as FE artist. 😭

Since I want to respect the site's guideline I won't add any more onto the said subject. How is it safe to assume he is not rendered a sexual object by the artist? By going along with the assumption the way you interpret it or have you talked to the artist himself? If his large muscles are more in line with the male power fantasy, then why can't Loki or Camilla be the same expressing their own confidence? The definition of how a character is displayed is up to the consumer and what you may think on one character may not be the same for others. The skin exposure is not a 1:1 comparison between men and women is due to the majority of society deciding what's accepted, which you have demonstrated very clearly in the beginning of your second paragraph. If men are able to be accepted for being shirtless, then ladies should be able to wear revealing attire as well. Fire Emblem have demonstrated on treating both gender fairly equally in this factor that I, for one do not see the problem with it. That is nice to see you support women in their right to express themselves, as I do too, including male to express themselves however they want. And that could be said same for the artist who dress's their character however they want with their freedom to choose it's personality. The double standard that have been normalized though, are which I find peculiar. To correct you, I looked at Camilla and said "it was finally nice to see a character with relatable body type"; not "finally a woman with big boobs". Even if one is to look at women with big boobs, it does not mean they have similar body shape, legs and so on. So clearly we can see the first body part you look at when you see Camilla lol, which is fine by the way but I would prefer you not to do that to someone who isn't fictional. Yes, there maybe countless of examples in all media forms, however Fire Emblem as a whole rarely have someone such as Camilla, with her body type (bonus to having empowering personality) as one of the main character. Which is an insight to what I meant.

I see what you mean if you are trying to comprehend where people are coming from. And I agree, I spectacularly fail to emphasize that said perspective because the fuss over the mild content that is Fire Emblem is pretty dramatic. If you look at the picture alone, Hawkeye is showing abs, his buffed arms and his whole upper body which media often define these factors as "appealing and attractive" upon males. What makes you conclude he isn't someone who isn't looked at as mere meat, per say. How do you consider male as sexually objectified? Because what you said about Hawkeye can be said about Loki. Is this design something we should also consider criticizing due to the amount of skin that is revealed? You say Loki's poses emphasize her chest and butt; but Hawkeye's pose and the lack of upper clothing also emphasizing his abs, chest and arms. Why is it ok for a man to show skin while if a female does it, it's suddenly a sin? As someone who have the same body type as Camilla (from FEFates) I did not mock or belittle the character that was shown in Fire Emblem. In contrast it was finally nice to see a character with relatable body type within a game. (Just because you know someone with big boobs say what you described, doesn't mean there isn't any other woman who will say otherwise.) From a personal experience, trust me when I say: even if I am fully clothed people will ASSUME I am being a hoe asking to be a victim of something vicious. Just like how you just ASSUME in your last paragraph to whoever you were replying to while getting your popcorn.

Fire Emblem Content is pretty mild; and if someone, as you described found FE to be wild due to different consumption type of media, than FE might as well be R16. Unless you were speaking on a general term than your reply is pretty invalid since this topic regards to FE content.