Graal

I just don't remember anyone saying Conquest was bad because it lacked a theme or a statement about the human condition.

Takes me back to when I was accosted by a whole forum. But not the admins. And I didn't make the thread. And I was called disingenuous for a position I never stated. And said forum had a reputation for being biased on the subject. And nobody was ballsy enough to just directly confront so I just cut my losses. All in all, not much like this situation.

Hatred being bad is a little weak to hang an entire game on without really exploring the theme and all the ways hate infects or twists people. I feels like, based on how Conquest handled it, they made an entire game out of the kind of character gimmick you'd get in a support chain.

Late response obviously but while I don't agree Dorothea is a lesser person if she slept with someone I think the devs would know a lot of their audience would think that and tailor expectations accordingly. And she would be seen that way in a Medieval setting too. Her character would be written differently, imo, if she was meant to be "sullied." And the main insight we're given into how likely she is to do, or not do, this sort of thing is what she says about being propositioned. In real life I'd agree that her words don't necessarily forbid breaking her own rules. But this is a story where we're only given little glimpses and what's said in Support conversations is meant to be taken seriously. Many of her support conversations would be rendered fairly pointless outside of just their specific circumstances if she slept with a Noble to get in. And I don't think trading several conversations to enhance one with no obvious new payoff is a good trade (the message about dwelling on your past is served fine by focusing on her being an orphan). I think they could have her anger at being used by some Noble fuel her worldview but they don't. What fuels her admonitions of people like Sylvain and Lorenz is what she tells Hanneman and Ferdinand: how her father treated her mother and how the same Nobles who would never have helped her as a vagrant conveniently loved her. The subtext of all that is that Dorothea was better than the environment she found herself in. And this carries over into many supports. Even with Bernadetta/Felix she says she had to crack skulls because some men would not accept no. That's a high level of defiance running through many supports. After establishing she's not what she seems like this her iddle support with Lindhart is a bad time to throw a curveball there. I'd also point out the game is not so circumspect with Sylvain or Manuela. So I don't think the game is simply "too polite" to be up front about it. Manuela herself admits to doing unsavory things, and Sylvain is seen as a louse by everyone (himself included). Meanwhile with Dorothea it's muddled with her responding to the rumors with talk about how she's an orphan in over her head, but also nonchalantly dropping how she got in to Manuela in their C support. And Manuela is not upset by this in any way after telling Dorothea to avoid becoming like her because it's just a nice, positive scene about how far her little protege has come. So if it's an innuendo with Lindhart it isn't here for some reason. And this is also where Dorothea's easy time lecturing people comes in. The game never treats Dorothea as ever unworthy of her goal. But it does treat Sylvain like that. And even Manuela. Both have to change in ways Dorothea does not. With Dorothea she has to try being more genuine rather than trying to force or entice her way into find a good suitor. She has to "be herself" but Manuela and Sylvain have to admit they're screwups and basket-cases before being forgiven and then rewarded. Just looking at hetero pairings here to keep it consistent among the three. And because it's about how Doro/Manuela relate to men and Sylvain to women.

That is how Dorothea interprets the gossip as well. That she's in way over her head and fundamentally just of a lower class despite it all. If it is an innuendo then nobody in game seems to get it. And we have good reason from her other support chains, and this one, to disregard even a slim possibility (in my opinion). I don't disagree but it feels wrong for the character to me because of lines the one I quote below being her "formative experience." And it feels a little insane she'd need to sleep with someone just to get what sounds like a recommendation. Or that she'd be willing to instead of simply looking for another one. This is a girl willing to turn down marriage offers from distant admirers and scoundrels after all. Turning down what she most wants and would open more doors for her; and is attending school to get. She constantly speaks ill of those who try to bribe her affections, and not just as a lowly act but a fruitless one. I find this line the most telling: Dorothea: He'd had a child with a maid, but the child didn't have a Crest... So he threw them both away. Those were his very words. I can't prove that he really was my father, but... I suppose it doesn't matter. He didn't know who I was, and when he flirted with me, my feelings were something beyond fury. I was dumbfounded. In truth, I felt that way about all of the nobles who flocked around me, yet would just as easily have tossed me away should it better suit them. It's clear she learned from her own deductions (you could even say this is a prejudice she has, since it's tied to her dislike of Nobles) and the mistakes of others than firsthand experience. And I tend to feel we should prioritize what is definite over what is very tenuous. She has a lot of lines like the above, and they're always so much more important and emphatic than a vague innuendo, so it's clear the writers want us to see her this way. And they do nothing to subvert these expectations. In fact, they even bring along Yuri to all but tell the player that Dorothea is a good wholesome girl. That's probably not an accident. She wasn't that popular in Japan, probably because she's essentially an idol who is dating multiple men, so this was decided as the final statement on her. Because it's an A support with the main dlc character. And he's a guy who knows secrets and has a cynical outlook. His unvarnished praise and comparative shame toward Dorothea is pretty serious. Spoilering because I wrote too much but more of a direct answer is here:

Very nice. Anyway not on me to prove there isn't connotation anyway. Thank you for your help. I always found the assumption Dorothea slept with some sleazy noble because of a possible innuendo in English to be a little small-minded. I mean they give her carte blanche to lecture someone like Sylvain on love and commitment after all, and stress that she's allergic to being treated as a casual fling in at least half her supports. It would be a little incongruous.

Thank you. Looking it over myself. Google translate, while imperfect, is doing a good job. Getting recognizable sentences that are of a kind to the English with no big deviations. "incorporate into the aristocrats" in her B+ support seems to be to the critical phrase. If 'aristocrats' is indeed plural then it definite she's more guilty of sucking up and being accepted by them. Otherwise it comes down to if the verb has an ulterior meaning. Still the focus is on her being an orphan and unworthy to be around these rich, pedigree'd kids after that. I don't think に取り入って is an innuendo anyway. Since I do not know the language I use little tricks like breaking up the phrases into smaller bits to see what the 'components' are to infer what the meaning is and り入って is "to enter" which is a verb she's enacting and fits with the sucking up idea. Hopefully someone who knows better arrives. @Flying Shogi Yep. Also looking at her own explanation on B+ since it's her "confession" moment. EDIT: should post her whole line 私は自分のために、貴族に取り入って、 学校に来た。孤児だった私が、よ。 which means "I took in the aristocrats and came to school for myself. I was an orphan." of a kind with "Selfish as I am, I curried favor with a noble so I could enroll here. An orphan like me, here. Crazy, right?"

I remember someone somewhere once telling me that in Japanese it's "made clear" that Dorothea slept with, or kissed or something, a Noble to be enrolled at the Monastery. And I am curious if anyone knows more. It would be in the B supports between Linhardt and Dorothea. In English it's a vague notion of getting a favor, which is how it's described in her C support with Manuela as well. Using connections. The claim feels odd as the ultimate point of said chain (w/ Lin) was how Dorothea doesn't actually have anything to be ashamed of. And feels incongruous with how she's upset people know she's an orphan and really doesn't belong (in her view). Also just seems wrong for the character who is supposed to know better than trust some pervert's word he'll do right by her if she just gives up what he wants first. She's able to get gifts and favors just for existing after all so desperation shouldn't be an option either. As you can tell I'm skeptical. Largely because the one claiming this never elaborated when I asked for proof and my experience in fandoms is when someone says "I'm right in Japanese" they're making it up; but also it never fit tonally which I don't think translation can change too much. Not to mention how it seems every other translation inaccuracy is well reported but this one is not (despite being a bigger deal than if Manuela discovered her talent or not). But I figure I'd see if anyone knows better. Leif of Leinster on tumblr is taking a break and they've done the translations I've referenced in the past so I'm broadening the net. If anyone can answer or tell me where I can look I'd very much appreciate it.

Because she was the antagonist for a lot of people + "grrrr she's so popular!" Social Media has a tendency to destroy nuanced thought as well. And make people take their fiction too seriously. So rather than, say, evaluate Edelgard with respect to her role in something not actually real they just "hate her". And this sentiment is reinforced by fandom factions as well.

and she wants to do it while she's still young and can give someone her best years so expedience does matter. Taking it slow is a risk, as Manuela shows.

I think this matters too. I mentioned this. She was never gonna find someone, or it would at least take forever, in a situation like the Opera.

Probably because she can drop fire and is now a renowned war hero. Or maybe she thought rebuilding the opera was more important. She could already handle herself okay before, now she's more dangerous to them than vice versa.

I was wasting time indoors the other day and when listening to Yuri's supports something clicked for me. Dorothea's reasons for leaving the opera for the Monastery's Officer Academy always felt a little under explained by her. She wanted to find a husband she had actually bonded with, and follow Manuela after seeing she "made it" on the outside and didn't need the opera to thrive. But I also think Dorothea left because of the following: 1. Yuri is the boy from Bernadetta's past. The presumed cruel brutality visited on said boy made Bernadetta afraid of being friends with a commoner. 2. Dorothea reassures Bernadetta that she'll be fine. Having been targeted and survived kidnapping attempts (and worse) in the Opera. 3. Yuri, the same boy, in his support with Dorothea indicates that Dorothea was intensely desired by Nobles and since she refused to grant "access" to them would desperately seek out replacements 4. This would also explain why she was targeted. If she was willing to give the expected quid pro quo there would not be as strong a motive. And as time passed only more and more Nobles would likely be trying to take her for themselves or seek revenge for spurning them. While there's no confirmation of this connection it is an aspect of her past and decision-making that's often ignored, and the fact that the same character bridges these diffuse elements is at the very least a neat coincidence. I like it because it creates a strong reason for her to leave that she'd not want to trouble someone like Manuela with. Their support being a positive one about how Dorothea worked hard to reconnect with her surrogate mother. Makes it feel understated and subtle even if it otherwise would not be.