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Everything posted by haarhaarhaar

  1. Basically this. I actually don't use Alert Stance on this build because it's overkill, even on Maddening, and robs the unit of a perfectly good Player Phase (that's what gauntlets are for to begin with, right?). The massive investment required is an extra issue, although one that NG+ can sort for you easily enough if you're so inclined. Broadly speaking, I'm also not a huge user of EP builds, which is why the WM version appeals - I can maintain my Player Phase tactics, have the dodgetank WM kill an enemy on its Player Phase, and then leave it there for aggro afterwards, without any managing of HP thresholds/worrying about Breaker skills etc. Not having Alert Stance (+) also allows me one of the high-level gauntlet skills/another mastery skill, which I think are often better value for this play style. IIRC, some of the quicker enemies in the lategame (fliers basically) might have non-trivial hit rates against the build (30-40 Hit and doubling), but QR with Killer Knuckles normally ends them before they become a concern. Really good points from @Dark Holy Elf. I'm a huge fan of this build, but it is very binary for mages. You have to plug a significant amount of investment into raising bows (Mercedes' is a budding talent, so starting at E and with at least 3 sessions of no boon to Bows) while probably fielding her as an Archer adjutant and knowing the build won't come online before Ch. 9 at the earliest. For this build, you'd probably spend time as Mage to get Fiendish Blow, but that requires Reason rather than Faith. In other words, there's every chance you won't get Fortify before Ch. 13 if you're going to make use of her as a Magic Bow Sniper. Furthermore, Hunter's Volley is what makes this build a delete button, so leaving her in mage classes only means she gets another attack option (albeit one she can use much more freely than the limited spells). Magic Bow is nice, but isn't worth the effort without Sniper (unless you're somebody like Yuri maybe).
  2. Congrats on your first NG Maddening run! I've done basically this exact run as well, was very fun to compare your thoughts with my experience. I've been underwhelmed by PBV in general, as it doesn't fit with the normal advantages of bows/bow-specialising classes, and it comes out poorly in comparison with Swift Strikes because there are many more good lances to use. I also find Leonie pretty essential in the early game, where you're really struggling for reliable frontliners in VW. I'd say don't give up on QR just yet - Grappler is better than WM for Player Phase, but vice versa for Enemy Phase (where QR obviously shines). Balthus is a particularly bad choice for an EP WM build because of the bad synergy between QR and his personal, and his relatively low base speed/avoid. QR is part of the gauntlets user build that is one of the best all-round builds an infantry combat unit can get to (strong kill rate on Player and Enemy Phase, high survivability, can handle tanking duties/being outnumbered etc.), but really isn't necessary for Player Phase centred tactics.
  3. I've always liked Petra and Ignatz's support for the relative breeziness of it, and I get the feeling that it isn't viewed that much because people don't normally put them together. He's easily recruitable and requires little effort to be built as an archer or your Dancer. Even if you don't want to use him long-term, he has a high hit rate, rallies early on, and a very accessible paralogue if you're looking for cash/grinding. And, although he isn't a member of the Church faction, he does lean heavily towards them, so wouldn't be a ridiculous choice story-wise either. Hard is probably the difficulty mode where he shines the least, but otherwise he fits all your requirements. If the choice is between him and Shamir, I guess I'd still pick Shamir because I like her a lot and she's stronger, but I'm still happy to make the case for Ignatz here.
  4. Yeah the movement thing is critical. Less bothered about the other stuff though. Ignatz will find the ranks a bit easier to get with Assassin, but extra Physic (even with low mag and half uses) is still better having than not having imo. The point of it is mainly to top someone up/take up healing duties when your main healer is otherwise occupied, so it's not as if we're expecting Ignatz to have the same range/healing power. As for Fetters, it's at very least a case-by-case basis item. Not saying that you necessarily want to give it to this unit all the time, but given the role they're playing it certainly isn't a bad idea. Full rallybot Ignatz with Rally Strength is a nice idea, but it isn't really a must-have unless you can get it early via NG+, or you're doing some kind of challenge where you need everything you can get for the lategame. At least, I've never wanted to equip Rally skills outside of Part 1 (or for building support ranks) so I don't rate them much for the lategame. Moreover, I've already argued that Ignatz isn't the best for this build anyway - it wastes a lot of his other potential. You should only put a unit which otherwise has little chance of making your party through this build - and I don't think Ignatz is ever that unit, unless you have very particular rules about recruitment and won't use/recruit anyone worse. If you do pick someone else, they may or may not lean towards Trickster more. But ultimately, Trickster is not a good class, and whether you choose it over Assassin here is ultimately down to whether the extra support compensates enough for the movement penalty. I think it's still in the running, but it isn't the definitive choice here.
  5. Speaking of messing around with classes, I just remembered that Trickster also has Stealth, so would be better for this build than Assassin if you have the DLC. Ignatz works well for this, although still a waste compared to Anna. Admittedly she'd need work on getting Faith to B and Authority to D, which would delay her Riding focus to get Pass/Mv +1 a bit - but she's a free recruit with Lost Items and a couple of cheap gift options, so why not? Since the build's function is support and not getting hit, you don't need a Faire, Lethality, or the better Speed growth, and Chest Keys can replace Locktouch if you absolutely need to. Trickster has going for it the situationally useful Foul Play, and most importantly magic accessibility. The Faith requirement might need some work, but it's probably a net plus if you can help out on turns where you don't need the Wall strat. In the case of Ignatz, that'd be primarily with Physic. Anna gets Rescue, which can either function as normal (pulling back a unit that has gone too far/is pinned) or like a flexible Foul Play, moving forward first then bringing up a unit that hasn't moved. Either spell is very useful, and Ward is occasionally good (though worse than Impregnable Wall obviously). Whichever unit you use (and this build could also have a proper mage that you won't use in your main army, like Linhardt), the cost is only slightly higher than Assassin, for utility that doesn't solely depend on Impregnable Wall. Worth doing imo. EDIT: Forgot about 5-move Tricksters vs. 6-move Assassins. That alone makes it much more of a toss-up than written above. Go with your gut I guess
  6. I think it was a deliberate choice to make the late-joiners meh because they were only supposed to be replacements for students you lost/screwed up - Seteth and Jeritza being the exceptions, because of plot reasons (being a pseudo-lord/Death Knight respectively). If so, then a recruitable Judith probably shouldn't be much better than SS Catherine, and Nader would either be a worse Seteth (as people have already said), or at best this game's version of Renning (decently high strength and fairly hyped in-game, but not normally worth the deployment slot due to lack of development). By itself this isn't that satisfying, I agree. However, the standard is the massive variance in quality of late-game recruits across the previous games, when late-game recruits served a particular purpose (as opposed to 3H, where they don't really). Given that, if you still wanted playable late-game recruits but would also resent their eventual uselessness, maybe lock one/both of them behind some extra recruitment conditions, and then give them a strong unique item to justify their recruitment - like Stefan, although he was also a pretty good unit when you got him. It isn't quite fair compared to the other routes, because AM and CF get their characters for free and the Scythe of Sariel is very good, but strong items on recruitment + good rewards from a paralogue would hopefully balance that out. Hopefully this is the right level of compromise between recruitment/utility/satisfaction/completionism, while also meaning Judith/Nader don't outshine the students you've been training up the entire time.
  7. I don't totally understand how this strat makes Ignatz in particular OP. If anything, I'd argue that Ignatz is good enough in general that you'd want to pick a unit worse than him to use this build, because Ignatz can have solid utility in Maddening, and there are some units that can't by Level 20. Off the top of my head, Ashe and Anna would fit the bill here. I know that Ashe is neutral in Swords, and Anna is weak in Authority, but I don't think either of these are significant obstacles. Depending on when you recruit them, both can come with auto-Thief certification (and so only need to see a bit of combat with Bows to be ready to try classing into Assassin), and D authority for Impregnable Wall is not a difficult ask by level 20, even for Anna. Most importantly, both of them would function fine in Assassin independently of this tactic, but would still be worse than Ignatz in his other good classes (say, Sniper or Dancer). Because the main point of the build is to use Impregnable Wall, the unit involved don't massively need combat strength - if anything, the weaker of your army the better, so that you aren't making unnecessary sacrifices in combat potential (ideally, they aren't getting hit with Stealth anyway). If that's the case, calling Ignatz OP just for fitting this build the best is a bit contradictory, because it's actually admitting that he's normally the weakest of the units you'll have to hand. Actually, ignore that - I reread the first post, and it seems like you're just calling the build OP, so the thread is slightly misnamed. You can advance any unit you like as far as just beyond your Assassin (i.e. 7-8 range) and have the entire group survive the EP with minimal costs, which is stellar when you need to over-extend for any reason (like needing that extra firepower for a kill, or that extra range on Physic/Warp/Rescue, or I guess just charging into enemy territory for baiting or whatever). What makes this OP, though, is how little resources you commit to the unit, compared to its utility (theoretically, it could be a below-average Level 20 unit doing a very useful job during the endgame). There aren't many builds which you put in as little for and still get something continuously reliable from. Of course, the nature of the formation when Walling more than two units means that any enemy that can gambit you will, which can nerf a lot of the benefits of tanking the EP to begin with. And unlike other OP builds, it relies on your other units being at least decently strong. But I don't think those are critical weakness - nice build idea!
  8. Lucky Seven is a really hard skill to plan things around. Not impossible, but it involves the kind of pre-planning for a level that only tough challenge runs or (maybe) LTC clears would demand. So unless you're being really meticulous about the prep work, it won't affect your strategy, so it can't be a reason justifying equipping Duelist's Blow. The Duelist's Blow + avoid-boosting CA synergy is only worthwhile on a unit built for doing Player Phase melee chip, that you also don't want to suffer counters. But you very rarely need to build a unit specifically for this, because just about everyone can do it, and many normal strategies, like attacking bow users from one space and physical fighters from two or more, achieve the same effect on Player Phase. You also normally have options to mitigate counters received on Player Phase after the fact (like healing/good positioning), so avoiding counters on Player Phase is only occasionally a priority. Given that so many standard tools can make up for not having Avo on Player Phase, going through Trickster to get it, with all its other disadvantages, isn't worth the time. I only equip it if a skill slot would be empty otherwise. Dedue and Alois are the only ones to get One-Two Punch, and Trickster is a pain for both of them. Not to mention Avo +20 still probably wouldn't make enough of a difference to them on Maddening, and neither of them are desperate to avoid counters on Player Phase. The reason I think Duelist's Blow exists is, again, for magic CA users, to fix their survivability on the frontlines, thus making them more viable attackers when standard physical attacks don't work. Because the attack benefits of Trickster (or indeed, most hybrids) aren't strong enough to allow most characters to get OHKOs, these units are inevitably consigned to chip damage (and they rarely have the health to survive a Player Phase and Enemy Phase). But at that point, we zoom out and look at all the other things those people could be doing instead of being a Trickster, and decide it isn't worth our while. But then, there's Anna. Whose growths and proficiencies are built for Trickster, gets Pass, and a free Thief certification if you wait long enough to recruit her. She doesn't have supports, so will never be a top-tier unit, and doesn't have good enough Mag to one-shot things. It's a toss-up with everything mounted, but you could very well argue for Trickster Anna being one of her better classes, since she also can't do anything particularly well. Even still, Duelist's Blow is a hard one to justify her equipping because she has good access to Sword Prowess/Axebreaker/Bow Prowess/Darting Blow/Fiendish Blow/Pass/Mv +1/Mag +2/Res +2, which in my head all take priority over Duelist's Blow (Res +2 for Soulblade/mage-tanking, Mag +2 for Hexblade/boosting Rescue, and for me a small boost to damage > a big boost to Player Phase avoid). Maybe if a map has only a few axe users, it would replace Axebreaker - but that's still the only scenario I could imagine equipping it.
  9. Fair point, but since Jeritza doubles a lot of people on this map, and many of them are low-hit axe users, I think the Player Phase crit build is more than serviceable without Battalion Wrath. Wrath isn't even viable for Jeritza at this point (reaching B Axes and Warrior mastery in 4-5 weeks is ridiculous, unless you're grinding). I suppose you can guarantee doubling too with Killer Knuckles, although I wasn't thinking about that when I commented before, and it clashes with the benefit of being mounted.
  10. What I meant before was that you can still run swords on Death Knight, it's just that because Hero has Swordfaire, it's a better fit for swords than Death Knight. I agree with having Jeritza run swords on this map (unless you have him primarily use gauntlets, which is viable too), and Death Knight can still run all the other skills apart from Vantage, so you still have available a sword crit build that will be good enough to kill wyverns on Player Phase at least. Building Jeritza for Enemy Phase is fine, but it will take a while for him to get to a position where he can bait Nader, and I've never been that worried about baiting the other Wyverns - at least, there are plenty more tools for that. Yeah, so with the above I was trying to say that I don't bother clearing out many of the dragons around Nader (they're limitless, and like you say, they're tough enough to be able to cause issues). Most efficient is to Stride one or two fliers (ideally carrying bows, or maybe a Dark Flier if you have DLC) and have them beat Nader when it's convenient. When I get my positioning right, I beat Claude and Nader (and finish the map) on the same turn. You can clear them out if you want - I did the first time I played this map - but this method is just as powerful, while getting a lower turn count. When I play this level, I otherwise do very similar things to you, but the extra movement/Canto still matters (in your case, with that positioning in Turn 2, or for making sure you can position units to beat Hilda safely). It's entirely reasonable to leave Jeritza behind in the city if you want to, but after you deal with the first couple waves of reinforcements you don't have to - you can be in position to beat the map at that point, so enemy baiting isn't particularly important. Higher-Mv Jeritza allows for more flexibility in what he deals with (he can run down the Bow Knights once they get to the city, deal with the Warriors at the other city entrance alongside your main group, and/or kill the final city guard). To me, that flexibility is more valuable than the benefit Vantage gives to Jeritza's EP, as I'm not expecting anyone to have a significant EP on this map. Which, I guess, boils down in part to a play style preference - but I do still think Death Knight has the edge.
  11. Interesting! Thanks for doing the numbers as well. The level of set-up you've described here isn't anywhere near ridiculous - in fact, I'd say its relative ease here is a selling point (maybe some people don't recruit Felix on a BE run, but I normally do so that isn't an issue for me, and everything else there, including D+ Axes, because Jeritza still wants Death Blow IMO, is very achievable). Nader is also a fairly serious threat, where there aren't that many ways to deal with him - bow flier(s) +Stride, or baiting with a dodge-tank/Petra/someone with Impregnable Wall up are the two methods I use, because I never attempt to pass through the ships. I quite like this as a build, and I probably undervalued the possibility of this because I don't play Enemy Phase tactics in general. I'm still not totally convinced that I'd choose it over Death Knight here, though. Hero has Swordfaire (although would it get kills that a critical build DK won't on this map?) and of course Vantage gives him a life on Enemy Phase that he wouldn't otherwise have. However, the extra range of DK makes capturing Derdriu before reinforcements arrive that much easier, netting you the stat boosters, and puts you that much closer to A+ Riding (if you don't grind, you don't actually have much time to get it, even with Mastermind). There's not much in it though, and the Hero build is definitely worth thinking about!
  12. Arguably, Jeritza never wants to go Hero, because the early Part 2 maps (bridge of Myrddin, Derdriu) reward high-movement. I could maybe see it for Ch. 15 (Garreg Mach defense), but that map is a great place to get kills, so having a tank (and Jeritza, of all people!) absorb all that juicy EXP feels like a massive missed opportunity. Unless, of course, you were already planning on a Jeritza-juggernaut run, in which case you definitely don't want him to spend time in Hero. This is interesting - I've found the opposite, that mastering an Advanced Class, especially for only temporary benefits/as not part of my final build-plan, is a significantly greater effort than doing the same for an Intermediate class. Even taking into account the drop to stats. Then again, I don't use Defiant Strength, so what do I know.
  13. The gambit/spell charge/weapon use/battalion hp restoring normally pairs with level exp (IIRC you can get weapon exp, but not much or often). But yeah, definitely can come in handy for a run like this.
  14. Forgot about her banes, which would make Fortress Knight a pain even for her. Oh well, to the meme bin it goes. It's a shame, because before I bought the game I was really hopeful about the possibility of fielding armoured mages, which Edelgard and Lorenz particularly seemed to fit the bill for. Thyrsus would have fit right in with that fantasy version of Lorenz.
  15. I like giving it to tanks, who see so much combat that it inevitably triggers a lot. I also rate the Pavise/Aegis effects from relics (and Pavise in general), but chance-based activation means that it's always an uphill battle justifying the use of a skill slot for it. This could matter if you're running Lysithea as a mixed attacker. Soulblade can get off about as much damage as her top spells, except in dealing effective damage/Luna vs mages, and with a greater number of uses than those spells. Extra Pavise could mitigate the subsequent risk of leaving her in range of enemies. It probably isn't reliable enough to ensure she survives more than an enemy or two per phase, and Lysithea probably has a lot of competition for skills depending on how much she's mastered. But yeah I could see you using it for her in that case.
  16. Both of them are equally useless in my head, but Meg is completely free to recruit and has a bit more opportunity for deployment. Fiona is also free, but her AI in the map you recruit her on has been irritating for me (poor positioning relative to her pursuers), and there's less room to use her at all, let alone well. So Fiona gets my vote - which is a shame, because I actually like her design.
  17. I don't think most people would consider Mercedes/Constance for this anyway, unless they were doing meme/challenge runs with them. I would say that Fortress Knight is harder to get in reach of without a decently significant focus on Axes (B-rank at Lvl 20-ish when Axes aren't your main weapon isn't easy I think), and people who'd benefit from it the most would probably suffer relatively large opportunity costs.
  18. Thanks! And yeah, I'm learning all kinds of things about the game with this run. Write-up of Chapter 2 below! What Lies Beneath
  19. I feel like I remember someone doing this when I was last active on these forums (so a couple of years ago) although I can't remember who, which isn't very helpful. But you wouldn't need to do that much differently to normal runs. Movement is the big issue, followed by healing availability in middle-to-late Part 1, and the shitshow levels become that much more of a pain (i.e. Chapter 5, Chapter 13 non-CF). The A+ skills from movement (and the Dimitri build) can really help - but it's not as if you're locked out of the game without them. I can definitely see stat screwage making a difference, but probably won't destroy the run altogether unless it's on your lord/Byleth. Looking for a silver lining, students don't need class certs or seals so you save a little money and some teaching time? It isn't much, but it's something.
  20. Taking on board the ideas people gave me from a previous thread, I've decided to try a Cindered Shadows challenge run as a way of getting back into the game. I'm going to write up a log of every chapter on here - if people have suggestions/tips for how to handle what's to come, or just comments on the challenge run itself, then by all means get involved. Rules: True Novice If a character's proficiency is higher than E rank, they cannot use anything associated with that weapon/movement type. If an ability or class available required them to achieve a weapon rank of higher than E, then they cannot use that ability/class. (When I was thinking of challenge rules, I was trying to figure out what challenges I could do that CS in particular could be good for, then I remembered that skill ranks can't be raised in CS. I'd imagine it's quite tough to use these rules in the main game, just because your main units would get past E rank in everything pretty easily.) Difficulty: Normal/Classic (I originally tried Hard/Classic, but Balthus' personal combined with his pod of enemies wiped me out a lot so I gave up) Here's my write up of Chapter 1 - hopefully more to come! The Fourth House
  21. I guess this is the heart of the debate here. By the sole metric of victories/encounters, or enemies killed per turn, this sword flier build is surely up there. But while the OP has provided a perfectly acceptable way of approaching the game (invest well in a dodge tank in Part 1 then let them deal with the major difficulties in Part 2), the majority of commenters (myself included) don't seem to share all their priorities. This means that "optimising" takes on a different flavour for us. Few of the comments consider dodge tanks in a vacuum when they think about efficient or enjoyable play. In my case, I want all my deployment slots to contribute to my victory, so Player Phase matters a lot to me, and this influences my choices in unit development. From that, a valuable critique of the sword flier build (which is what the thread seems to be about) is that it does not align with the priorities and play styles of at least some players, as people have already said (and the OP acknowledges). This is probably a different kind of critique to what may have been expected (i.e. mechanical/practical problems with creating such a unit), and perhaps why the OP tried to head it off at the pass with their Q&A section. In attempting to meet the spirit of that and abstract from these individual differences in play, we get to considering a dodge tank's merits as 'objectively' as possible, i.e. their performance on Enemy Phase. Which is why the discussion here is going to be Enemy Phase centric, even though people may not actually play that way. Losing the anchor of how people actually play makes the discussion less practically relevant, but more in line with the intent of the author, who has been explicit about the thread being "academic". Long story short, the discussion here is about as Enemy Phase centric as you'd expect, given the thread.
  22. I don't think you "need" to one-round enemies on Enemy Phase on Maddening, let alone Hard. By this I just mean that, by the time that dodge tanks become viable, Player Phase-centred tactics are good enough to deal with everything to come in a timely way. Bait-type dodge tanks are very likely to do non-zero damage to most of the people that come its way, so the relative efficiency to soloing only depends on how much you advance. For example, if your dodge tank is designed to solo maps as much as possible, and where the win conditions are rout or kill the (human) boss at the end of the map, the speed of victory is reliant on the speed at which your solo dodge tank can move. However, this means the Player Phase outside of your solo dodge tank is fairly useless (mainly healing/siege tome/killing reinforcements normally unconnected to victory conditions). Let's compare with a bait-type dodge tank, which is less likely to kill everything that attacks it. This time, the rest of your army are engaged killing/gambiting whatever has been left behind. Provided that your Player Phase can deal with the leftovers*, the battle is still moving at the speed of your dodge tank. Even assuming a solo-type can one-round a boss and the bait-type can't, all the bait-type player needs is one more Player Phase to mop up the last round of enemies. That player has taken more real-world time to complete the map, but difference in turn count between the two styles is minimal. Other ways of using your dodge tank, such as engaging one particular front where multiple fronts are active, do not in principle rely on quick kills to achieve the dodge tank's objective, so sufficiently high avoid (which both builds can achieve) is good enough for these purposes. Other objectives (defend, monster bosses, save the NPCs) will require multiple units with strengths on Player and Enemy Phases to be cleared quickly and efficiently, so I haven't discussed those here. *If your Player Phase, even with its killing power/gambits, can't handle every enemy left behind a bait-type dodge tank, then it is likely you have advanced it too far, or have otherwise failed to get good positioning for your army. Handling this kind of situation would presumably be a merit of the solo-type dodge tank, in that it allows for less care about other units' strength and placement. The cost is overall responsiveness to the demands of a level (which can be mitigated by meta-knowledge, so isn't a huge cost after your first run/if you're prepared).
  23. Having tried all three of them in this class (with the same logic you wrote out at the top bar utilising Stealth), I've invariably felt like Trickster has let me down. All three of their selling points just felt watered down when they were in the class. More generally, being a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none in a game that encourages and rewards specialisation would already have been a hard sell. But when mages can use swords, the only things Trickster does uniquely well are the Foul Play and Stealth combo. In fact, I'd venture this is the way the devs imagined the class would be used (Foul Play to switch with a squishy on the frontline, Stealth so your tank(s) deal with the EP, and then repeat, or have them be extra damage with Duelist's Blow/magic combat art, or extra healing). Problem is, this necessitates a certain style of play to incentivise such a unit, one that isn't encouraged by the game more broadly (i.e. because of Master Classes and everyone being able to use the main weapons). It is, however, kinda encouraged by CS, which is another reason to praise those levels! Anyway, its growths are designed for magic weapon users, many of whom would prefer the extra damage from a Faire class or extra magic or whatever, and you then have to weigh up combat benefits vs maintaining this play style (spending a deployment slot as cover for the rest of your army). Trickster often loses that contest, which is why I think it's so unpopular (and of course all the other reasons people have mentioned above). As someone who also did this on NG+, really don't bother. Bolting on Manuela wasn't worth the effort even though she had A ranks with a few of my main units, and if you have the DLC anyway, just let Gremory Constance do the damage.
  24. I've done dodgetank M!Byleth on Maddening NG with the DLC - I imagine he loses out a bit on Avo compared to the build you've laid out above, but he needed almost no extra investment beyond mastering War Monk to be a good enough dodge tank (in both of @lenticular's senses of baiting and soloing). By good enough I meant Killer Knuckles/Aura Knuckles dealt with quite a lot, and I can count the number of times he got hit after Ch. 11 on one hand. Ch. 11 is when he mastered War Monk - it's been a while, but I don't think he used much of the Knowledge Gem before that point, although I did fight a lot on weekends (all the available paralogues/merchant quests, and one or two red marks to get ahold of rare weapons). Of course, eventually getting QR made his EP much better, and that only happens late on. Being a dodge tank though, he just needed more time to get the kills, on the admittedly few occasions nobody else was anywhere near him. I would say that I don't think Alert Stance was ever necessary, and the only particular flaw with that Byleth, if you can call it a flaw, is that he didn't fly. I think flight is more important for dodge tanks than for your regular unit, whether they're there to bait or kill. But because flying is already quite broken in 3H, it feels a little miserly to dismiss non-flying builds solely on the grounds that they can't fly. Big takeaways are: even less investment than the build you've labelled above (I suppose not counting buying the DLC hehe), is available to more people, and doesn't suffer from the breaker skills. The other thing is that you get a Player Phase with that unit, which I guess isn't essential for dodge tanks generally, but I guess this build is already for a different kind of play style to the one you've hinted at above (ie one which is more concerned with kill efficiency and EP effectiveness). Ultimately, the point about comparing these has already been made: I really appreciate this discussion from the theory-crafting perspective, especially since I wanted to justify Claude raising his Sword rank to use Sword of Begalta, but couldn't when Barbarossa exists. Bit of a tangent, but if you get a kill with FK Shamir (built like a standard dodge tank, with lances/bows), then dance Shamir and make her wait for her next turn, her personal kicks in alongside AS+. It's more gimmicky than standard dodge tank builds, because you're not guaranteed Shamir is in kill range and can Canto to dancer range every turn, but was a lot of fun to make work. EDIT to avoid doubleposting - I meant to second @Dark Holy Elf's point about dancers being decent bait-type dodge tanks just by themselves. They weren't good enough in my experience to deal with FKs and some late-game sword users, but very many other units were fair game. If you can get a Dancer who dances and utilises SA +20, then maybe that's a benefit that's at least competitive with investing everything into a dodge tank?
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