Wanderer11037

Ah my bad there I completely forgot that's what went down. Glad to see her getting to do some of that aforementioned politicking then. And actually it does sound really in character for her and (Innes XD) to react that way. Ephraim and Innes actually have a lot more in common than either would probably be willing to admit huh?

I've recently been dabbling in some Fe8 plot analysis and that got me thinking about Lyon's role in the story and his impact on Grado/Magvel. Personally I don't find him too convincing as a sympathetic villain for a number of reasons. One thing I won't deny is the fact that he's certainly an interesting character on paper. While I'm not a fan of the route split in general, it definitely provided some interesting characterisation for him as in Ephraim's route we get to see his "Demon-king possessed" persona while in Eirika's we see more of his "normal" self. As such with Ephraim we get an insight into his insecurities and the bottled up jealousy he felt towards his former friend. I've always enjoyed antagonists having a meaningful connection with the protags (assuming it's done well that is) so having a former friend who's turned against you out of a mix of despair and resentment is a super interesting premise. Meanwhile we see "Lyon" showing more of his old persona when dealing with Eirika, all to lull her into the false sense of security that the DK capitalises on when he swindles her out of Renais' stone. I do quite like how overtly possessed he is on the former route while in the latter by contrast we don't actually know how much of Lyon we're seeing or not. That ambiguity adds a lot to him imo. However, I feel like a lot more could've been done in the present-day storywise to build him up as a truly unwilling villain. Reserving all his normal behaviour (polite, reserved, kind etc) for flashbacks worked to his detriment. We needed to see more of him wrestling with his possession. I'm thinking along the lines of Robin at the end of the Awakening Future Past DLC where they're able to over-power Grima's control and paralyse him for long enough for Lucina to deal the final blow, except throughout the whole of the game. Maybe DK!Lyon issues an order of no quarter to the Grado 6 through his Vigarde-mouthpiece but then normal!Lyon breaks through briefly and rescinds the order. It'd also be great to see them in Lyon's mindscape and witness their back and forths,that way we'd get a glimpse of his thoughts on the current war and he'd feel like less of a none-character. We also need to see more of his remorse for how things have turned out. We know from his backstory and experiments, he was messing with the forces at be for the sake of saving Grado so we know he'd likely be horrified by how things are playing out. It'd be great to see this in his interaction with the Lords; perhaps he calls out to Eirika in desperation to save him or he goads Ephraim into finishing him off for the greater good. This would also do a lot of good for Formotiis, as he doesn't really have any presence in the story so it'd be great to see how he manipulates his vessel and the other Grado higher-ups; it'd definitely make him feel a lot more malevolent and threatening. As for Lyon's backstory prior to the game's events, his relationship with Eirika and Ephraim was fine, although it'd be nice to get more of his feelings of inadequacy compared to the latter and his pining for the former. His experimentation with the stone of Grado is where things become problematic if you ask me. So his prohetic dark-magic-induced dream is fine but I wish more was done with it. Yes it might be a little cliche but imagine if the earthquake that he foresaw was actually something he later causes himself in a fateful confrontation with Ephraim at Grado hall while he's under the influence of the DK? How tragic would it be for him, the well-meaning (albeit clearly naive) prince, unintentioanlly brings about the very disaster he was willing to give up everything to avert. Doesn't get more unfortunate than the classic self-fulfilling prophecy. (And if we follow through with the mindscape idea, we'd get to see the fading away/corrupted Lyon who's been trapped within his own mind finally snap. We'd see the meek prince finally furious at the DK for his treachery; this being the catalyst for him to slowly claw back control from the Big F. I think it'd do a lot for his character as it'd cement his selfless nature. Yes he might not retaliate if you slight/abuse him but the second his people are in the firing line you see the anger) Having the Grado-destroying earthqauke it's prince was willing to make a deal with the literal devil to avoid happen off-screen/in the epilogue is sooo underwhelming. We want to see CARNAGE His actions in response to all this however are questionable at best and completely illogical at worst. Why not let your stalwart allies in Renais know? It's unlikely they'll try to capitalise on your misfortune considering the character of the royal family. If anything they'll offer you counsel and support? Why note confide in your dear friends the greif and hopelessness you feel because of this, on top of what you're going through with the death of your father. Why bury yourselff in the dark arts in an attempt to revive your decseased father? Motivations aside, we needed more focus on Lyon's impossible mission to cheat death and bring his father back rather than being the afterthought that it was in the actual story. Building on that master-gaslighter Formotiis idea from earlier, why not have the big F start to "haunt" Lyon as he conducts his research; filling the prince's head with misery and despair. We need to see the big F corrupting the sorrowful prince's worldvoew, isolating him from his friends and family and preying on his insecurities. The seedlings of inadequacy and self-doubt are already there so the DK already has a good base to work from. Let's see Lyon convince himself that he has no choice but to revive his wise father as the man is the only one capabe of preparing the Empire for the oncoming disaster. Let's see him categorically reject his fellow researchers' and advisors' pleas for him to stop and assume the throne because he'd do fine. I suggest this all because I have no idea what in-canon could lead a sane person to bet his nation's future on the devil-incarnate faustian bargain-style. Lyon himself IIRC attempts to use the DK's power via the dark stone and that's what gets him possessed. Without any of this his actions seem pretty careless and that really detracts from the whole tragic villain-angle. And this way, we're building a character arc for him; the man who once ran from his responsibilities and chased a delusion unleashing chaos on the world in the process later owns up to his mistakes and acknowledges what he did was wrong. This leads me to the biggest gripe I have about him, that being that: The man shoud've survived! (and been playable for that matter) I have no idea how this would be executed but towards the end of the story, once Grado has fallen and we're approaching the endgame we need to see Lyon eventually expel the Demon King from his body through sheer force of will - maybe with some power of friendship shenanigans or via a Sacred Stone. His fate in canon gives me some major Pelleas vibes in that he dies and is practically exonerated for what he's done for no good reason. (In the same way I prefer the NG+ option of Pelleas being able to live and ride out the consequences of his failures as King of Daein, I envision Lyon going through the same thing). I want to see him grapple with what he's done, resolve to throw himself into the fight to restore peace and return home in shame and have to work himself back from the gutter Emmeryn-style. Why would this do anything for him? Well we'd get to see the sincerity and kindheartedness that we've been told he seems to have so much of on display for once. Yes he might be hated by his people, but he throws himself into his role as king because he knows that's his duty and that it's his form of atonement and maybe in the epilogue we learn that he does infact one day re-earn their trust. As the old saying goes, trust takes years to build but an instant to lose so let's see the once popular prince go through such an arc! This certainly deviated from an analysis of Lyon's failings as a tragic villain to a full-blown character rewrite but unlike the other GBA-era antagonists (other than maybe Zephiel King of Bern) he actually seemed to have a lot of potential as an effective yet sympathetic villain. I guess that's why I find his whole premise so captivating. So what do you good people think? Lyon bad or Lyon Good? (And a thank you to anyone who braved that thesis. Much appreciated!)

Yh I can see how having beings like Naga with poorly defined abilities/rule-sets can be problematic. I think SOV/gaiden deserves some credit there because Mila and Duma were pretty well defined in there philosophies - the former showering her bounty onto the faithful, the latter tempering the will to succeed through hardship and grit. (Duma's the parent that throws their kid into the river to teach them how to swim XD) Sure their powers aren't as defined either, but we at least have an idea about what they are and aren't willing to interfere in. Even Fe4 and Forseti come to mind as better examples of this being done - interference into mortal affairs but with restraint/within certain parameters. I think you've made me realise its more of an issue with Naga and the manaketes than with the future kids. The divine dragon's abilities do seem kinda nonsensical when you stack them up against each other. Want me to transport you to Grima's back, stop him from doing a barrel role and sending you and your army plummeting to your doom, restore you to perfect health, send you back in time or bring your friend back from the dead? Sure. What's that you want another Kingsfang? *Naga has left the chat*

Okay Grado's strategic blunders/nonsensical approach to the war definitely contributed more to their own downfall than Ephraim's counter-invasion I'll give you that. And yes Eirika being present in any form did take a lot of the heat away from Ephraim in terms of Grado general attention and the forces she tied up in the North of the continent. So she does play some role admittedly. I think my original point still stands however of her being too passive/reactive of a character. I know that the whole reason the route split happens in the first place is because she insists on aiding Jehanna/warning Rausten herself, I just wish she had a more interesting role in the plot. Imagine if we were to take the perspective of a Magvelian history chronicler documenting War of the Stones. I think it's pretty safe to say that any in-universe historical treatise or text would give faaar more spotlight to the Grado invasion than Eirika's skirmishes in Carcino and battles against North which would be a footnote by comparison. I think I'm a little spoiled by later games like Radiant Dawn, where we had multiple armies/factions all over Tellius with their own objectives and contributions to the wider conflict. To be fair to FE8, RD's plot was far greater in scope so I imagine it was probably easier to pull off the things I've been describing.

Valid(ar XD) points all around. I think the main reason I'm so caught up on all this (especially the lack of details) is because we've never really had a FE game that has done the doomsday scenario justice. I know things get super bleak in FE4's intermission but by the time the second half of the game has wrapped up all is right with the world again. FEA and Lucina's experience as her world's last hope always stuck out to me as something super unique Lord-wise so it's a bit of shame that those themes of perserverance in the face of unsurmountable odds etc weren't as fully explored as they could've been. Ngl didn't pay much attention to SOV so finding out Alm/Celica's house supposedly died out around the time of the og schism is a good catch. I can't argue that things undoubtedly ended up better for the main game timeline so the time travel certainly did save some worlds. However I don't think it's fair to say any of that was done with the future in mind. It always seemed to me that Grima following them back was unplanned so Naga was hoping he'd have been stuck there. Him chasing the kids back to the past, Anankos undoing most of the physical damage at the Fates trio's request etc were all merely coincidences. So yh things did turn out better overall, but I doubt that Naga in-universe could have taken all that into account. Ah the joys of retroactive continuity

I've always found it hard to believe that Lucina's timeline was completely doomed. I know we're told that one of the gemstones has been lost (would've been nice if we found out exactly how that happened in the future kids' supports or something but I appreciate that they themselves might not be aware of the details) so the Awakening can't be done but surely there were other options that could've been explored before dooming the timeline and jumping ship to the past. Does the Valentian falchion exist or has it been lost to the ages? What about dark magic? Have they interrogated any remaining Grimleal for any info? How do the Morgans factor into this? We know that Robin themselves has the power to defeat Grima but we never see the future children (main ones or FP timeline-ones) question if Morgan could do the same. When dealing with armageddon it seems like a sensible thing to explore. Even if the 12 don't know about Robin having children, Naga surely would but she doesn't seem to bring them up once. Even if they were clearly under Grima's sway in the FP timelines, we don't know if they even tried to reach out to/reason with them. We also know from the main campaign that Ylisse has no shortage of legendary weapons from other continents lying around. Yes they're implied to be thoroughly depowered due to their age but that's some serious fire-power not being put to use in the supposed war for the survival of the human race. While I know it's a work of retcon - the Thabes labyrinth is certainly something Naga should've been aware of. When looking to best a lovecraftian-style world ending threat, it seems a sensible move to investigate the ruins that it came from. Maybe you'll find something in it's origins that'll help you destory it for good. Another avenue that probably should've been explored was making a new contract with Naga over some other weapon rather than despairing over not being able to renew the existing contract with Falchion. Is it ever stated that Naga can't do this or is it something to do with her only existing in that ethereal form so she has no physical fangs left to forge a blade from? But that brings me to anther point of contention - in Shadow Dragon, if Marth fails to reclaim Falchion from Gharnef and Tiki hasn't been recruited to the party, you're whisked away to a gaiden where you recruit (the manakete of questionable canonicity) Nagi. She then gives the Hero-king-to-be a heavier lower Mt Falchion that was most likely forged from one of her own fangs. While I appreciate Nagi might not even exist in FEA, Tiki certainly does. Couldn't she produce a Falchion of her own and bless it like she does in the FP timeline when she ascends as that world's new Naga? Yes they don't have the completed binding shield but I always got the impression that the Awakening was there to RENEW the contract/re-bless the blade rather than empower it in the first place. Sure the peoples of the far-future might be a bit screwed what with no mechanism to re-energise this hypothetical Tiki!Falchion but hey at least Lucina and co are in the clear. On a final less relevant point, we're never told whether Naga herself knows that their universe operates on multiverse/many-worlds theory rather than linear back-to-the-future style time travel. Grima clearly thinks its the later since he thought he had to travel to the past to ensure the kids didn't jeopardise his existence . We also find out in Fates that because of some Silent!Dragon shenanigans and Grima's jump to and subsequent demise in the past, the future has been able to recover somewhat. I guess that kinda makes everything feel a little redundant by that point. Why doesn't Naga banish Grima to a desolate outrealm instead? He might be a destructive force of nature but he's seemingly unable to jump between realms so he'd be stuck there... I guess seeing that "resolution" to the original/future timeline just rubbed me the wrong way. Felt like a bit of a cop-out all things considered. I think what I'm trying to say is that I really want a prequel-sequel type game exploring Lucina's timeline XD

Ikr time really does fly huh? You're absolutely right in pointing out the Renvall and stone debacle as prime examples of her lack of political and strategic acumen. That's why it would've been nice to see her get more involved in Carcino's power-struggle. I can't quite remember exactly what went down but I don't recall her doing any major politicking with Klimt and the rest of the counci. I mean if you're a foreign noble who happens to be marching with your army through a minor neighbour that's busy tearing itself apart, you'd probably be making some demands before getting involved in the conflict. Why not offer Klimt your support in exchange for Carcino joining the war in support of Renais? You could argue that doing something that cunning is OOC for her but then why not have her secure a deal of food and material support in addition to a guarantee of neutrality one Pablo has been sorted out? Again this was a great oppurtunity to have Eirika show some initiative and as this is all going down about half-way through the game, would be a good indicator of her growing as a character. I like your idea of Eirika actually being able to make a sizable difference in Jehanna. On the military front, if she and her army (well militia but hey Seth is there and he alone makes the difference XD) were actually able to save Ismaire, recover the stone and stop Jehanna Hall from being burnt to the ground she'd have at least one major accomplishment to her name. It would also make her route feel so much less inconsequential. That way she'd be bringing 2 new allies to the war effort (Carcino in our new scenario as well as a non-destroyed Jehanna) and you could simply re-frame the reunion chapter as the twins regaining the initiative and taking out Caellach/Valter (pincering the pincer if you like, Eirika from Jehanna hall and Ephraim from the South with the Frelian army) Sure by that point the war is nominally won anyway with Ephraim's rampage through Grado, but at least this way Eirika has routed Grado in the North of the continent without even setting out to do so. It actually works out quite nicely because her making it to the desert in one piece would likely catch the Grado forces laying siege to JH off-guard and be the perfect excuse for her to relieve the siege. Even with the stone recovered it can easily fall into "Lyon's" hands as you've described so the wider plot would definitely be largely intact. Eirika definitely isn't as useless as some other unnamed Fe protags *cough Lyn* but I guess that's the reason I find her characterisation so grating. She reminds me a lot of Micaiah from RD personality-wise but I feel that of the two Micaiah is far more interesting of a character. While she's not perfect by any means she's pretty unique as far as Fe Lords go: You've got a well-intentioned optimistic young leader who successfully wins back her country's sovereignty (in paper unbeknownst to her at the time) and is later forced to enter a war she has no business being apart of. We then get to watch as she has to do increasingly terrible things in the name of her Daein until things eventually reach a breaking point. Now I'm not asking for that level of complexity or moral grey, just that my kind-hearted characters can be a little more capable in-lore! Eirkia's got the potential in the narrative to be impactful, the game just doesn't quite get her there in my humble opinion.

While I do see where you're coming from, I don't think that that assessment is completely fair. Sure the Grado troops were definitely over-extended with the occupation in Renais; fighting Ephraim directly on his push South and in attacking Jehanna but they weren't as spread out as you imply IIRC. En route to Jehanna, Eirika is primarily fighting mercs, monsters, Pablo's forces and then Grado. (On the topic of monsters I'm pretty sure Riev is the one who conjures the ghost ship Ephraim has to deal with so that's more attention being diverted away from Eirika). Yes she does encounter Grado troops, but those are only there assisting the Carcin(an?) troops under Pablo. As for Rausten, I thought Rasuten castle was only ever attacked by Riev and the Grado Remnants after the Lords reunite/Ephraim conquered Grado keep? Any other details about Rausten being attacked before that are left ambiguous. Also the assault on Frelia had already failed by the time the route split begins so Grado were arguably conducting a fighting retreat the whole time Ephraim was chasing them to the capital. Again I might be misremembering things but either way, in terms of the "War of the Stones" itself, she doesn't really play that much of a role. She's not even being much of a distraction as outside of Valter, Glen and Cormag, Grado aren't exactly hunting her, rather they're just attacking the places she happens to be (interfering in the rebellion in Carcino to install a friendly council and in Jehanna to destroy the stone etc) I think it's interesting to look at the Grado 6 as they're supposed to be the pre-eminent generals of their military and who ends up dealing with them: Valter & Caellach - Tie here as they're taken out in the reunion chapter (although as mentioned earlier I feel like with the siege setting and everything it's clear which Renais Royal is pulling more weight there) Selena - No arguments here, Ephraim deals with her Duessel - N/A as he defects Riev - Another tie as he's fought post-reunion Glen - N/A as he got Valter'd (but in fairness to Eirika he was assigned to deal with her, diverting attention away from Ephraim) All in all I still think it's fair to say that Eirika gets relatively little spotlight in the overall story when compared to her brother (in terms of sheer strategic importance/military feats at least). Yes she had a somewhat eventful route, but that doesn't take-away how detached she was from the wider conflict. (Ngl it's actually been pretty fun revisiting all this stuff. For a guy who's been ragging on this story, it clearly left more of an impact with me than I realised so credit where it's due I supppose XD)

I've got Fe8 on the brain now and something that always bothered me was how we start the game with Eirika but Ephraim's introduction and presence in the story from that point onwards just COMPLETELY invalidates her. Old point I appreciate but Sacred Stones was my first FE and I just remember finding it laughable how inconsequential her contribution to the story was. Even when I think back to the plot having not revisited the game for quite some time, I remember her list of achievements being: Going to Renvall to rescue her brother (who's "trapped" behind enemy lines in theory) but ends up needing saving herself First response 101: don't create another casualty for people to worry about! And Ephraim was going full Hannibal on Grado anyway, waging a pretty darn effective guerilla campaign with his merry band of men, so disrputing that's arguably on her too Hiking through the mountains, getting wrapped up in a civil war in a neutral nation that doesn't play a role in the wider conflict at all, rescuing Innes (who was fairly useless himself for someone in-lore meant to be an intelligent man, also this happens in both routes regardless) and failing in her main objective to secure Jehanna's stone . In other words she doesn't really achieve anything in her route. Admittedly a lot of this wasn't really on her but in that same timeframe Ephraim has conquered Grado off-screen, as you do I suppose, and found the time to make cross continent trek to her to break them out of that pincer attack between Caellach and Valter/siege of Jehanna Hall Handing over the stone to who "Lyon". While about as naive a choice you could make, I think it's fair to chalk that up to her trusting nature and her history with Lyon (that and it's more of a personal blunder rather than anythign strategic). Although Ephraim had to have the stone taken from him by force by comparsion, showing that even in the face of his former close friend, he put his duties as a leader before personal feelings. I actually really like the contrast in character between the 2 Lords, I just wish more was done with it. Yes Ephraim in-universe is just a bit too OP and some of the feats he accomplishes are ridiculous but even that could've been fine if we got that from him and Eirika's story was more of a coming of age story : Starting off naive and out of her depth but maturing as the story progresses and rising to become her brother's equal. Let's face it as they are now, Mr "I don't pick fights I can't win" is a static character but even that could work with some slight reframing of the story. Eirika was clearly intended to be the empath of the two (getting some major Alm/Celica dichotomy vibes here and like those two the former is presented by the story as being "correct" over the latter kinda defeating the point of their diverging view-points) so that should stay. Just have her become a little more capable and less in need of saving as the chapters go on. And arguably most importantly, if the early part of the story is kept intact, she NEEDS to have to come to Ephraim's rescue or something along those lines later on. That or she contributes to the wider campaign in some way that her brother couldn't. (Maybe she's able to pacify a brewing rebellion in the now-defeated Grado before they go after the Demon King through her inherent compassion, saving the Allied forces the trouble of dealing with the Grado Remnants). While not perfect at least in a narrative like that, her accomplishments would actually show that her world-view and methods are a credible alternative to Ephraim's brute force approach to all of his problems. Static characters work best when they encompass some kind of "Truth" which they have others acknowledge throughout the story (Goku and his insistence on showing mercy to each and everyone of his enemies being a good example of this). Ephraim definitely fits that more than his sister so having her turn the tables later on would've been sooo much more satisfying to see than the absolute Eirika dunk-fest the story actually was. (Spoiler tagging because I don't know what the policy on spoliers for an 18 year old game is) TLDR - Ephraim makes Eirika redundant by being crazily OP and that really grinds my gears.

I'd have to say the seeker of Missiletainn himself Owain. Does it count if his over-dramatic theatrics potentially influenced my own behvaiour in the first place without me even realising it? (I ask because I honestly can't remember if me finding this guy a riot brought this out in me or if I was always like that) My flair for the dramatic does tend to wind people up but those around me have largely accepted it by now. Then again in saying that, like the man himself, I fold like a wet piece of paper when someone calls me out on it XD