grandjackal

I have voted for you to be an edgelord. I have not played an ogre game, nor have I even seen one. I think I rented an Ogre game WAY back, and it was like this weird RTS with tarot cards, or something. I was pretty young, and at the time it all kinda went over my head, so I wound up not playing it. Seeing this though, it looks like a GBA Ivalice game. The sprites look strikingly similar in style. Your other playthroughs were quite entertaining, so I shall continue to watch you work. This will be interesting, since I don't know a damn thing about this game, or Ogre in generall.

I do not recall anything after returning Reis to human form. I certainly don't remember the next pope fight. Must be WotL stuff. Man, that was stupid. That was incredibly stupid. Mindnumbingly stupid. WotL didn't do shit to make this game any better, it's just a translation that isn't on drugs with a bunch of advertisement cameos for better games.

Luck increasing growths basically makes things a wash. Your characters could just skyrocket because you got lucky and got a bunch of luck early on. The amount of number tinkering you would have to do to make that work in the typical FE fashion would be too much work for something that is ultimately silly. The history of luck is a weird one. In FE1, I recall luck's use being comically narrow (I think it factored into avoid solely against magic. I don't recall it even effecting crit avoid. Sure didn't feel like it did). FE3 it definitely was crit avoid, along with hit and avoid in all scenarios. However, you couldn't really depend on avoiding attacks in that game since hit never got low enough to be dependable, so it didn't feel impactful. FE4, luck was low impact since critting involved skills or a weapon. FE5, luck almost FE1 useless because combat in FE5 might as well be a game of yahtzee. It's basically been FE3 homogenized since FE6 onward, up until Fates decided luck needed to be really high in order to feel safe. Luck tends to be more a stat that's important to the enemy rather than your characters. Most characters have the luck to never get crit, and the few it do usually have comically bad luck, and it is their primary flaw. This is fine, because the punishment for low luck is to randomly restart the chapter because the game said so. No stat punishes you harder. Fates made that flaw a lot more noticeable. I wouldn't say it's useless, just that it feels like you never have enough of it. You need like 25 to feel safe. FE5 and 1. That's when luck was useless. Also yeah, luck skills. Very neat, and I like them. Another reason luck isn't useless.

I vote to keep it normal. Going to video may make it feel wildly different and lose it's charm.

Adremmalach obliteratomizes Zalbaag with a thought, then doesn't do the same with you. I'm counting that.

Meliadoul was just a faceless nuclear bomb. Quick, shoehorn a random fight that doesn't even evolve her character! I used to be kinda ok on this game, mostly on gameplay and atmosphere. The story sucked, but I wish we could have another FFT that had this atmosphere instead of cutesiness. I then stopped liking the gameplay, and not much is left. This playthrough has been entertaining, but it's left a sour taste in my mouth. I just want an intrigue Ivalice story that doesn't involve being pulled from a trash can. Is that so wrong?

Hell yeah it is, quintessential SNES experience. Tragic it never got localized during the SNES's time. FE3 probably more than any other FE is relaxed enough that you can play it any way you choose. Some characters aren't great, but I wouldn't say anyone's straight unplayable. Book 2 of FE3 is a bit more of a challenge, but not extremely so. As for secrets, I wouldn't say there's any off the top of my head. Just be sure to collect everything that is obvious, and you should be fine.

I would think trying to steal while getting your ass obliterated would be my first issue with trying to steal Elmdor's stuff.

So now I believe Rude Knight joins you, right? This is the next bit of why I dislike this game playing it straight through like I did. Once these knights join, the effort to seriously training your generic mooks feel pointless. When you are playing that barebones where you need so much JP to learn certain skills, it really feels like it takes too much time for generics to get anything worthwhile in later classes. By the time you would, the knights start joining. Most with stupid good abilities already learned, and can learn more stupid good abilities. Also, a little pattern in lategame maps that I'm sure you're starting to notice around now. Don't maps feel smaller now? (PS: I'm a dork that read through your FFTA2 playthrough. Lots of fun, enjoyed the bits where you roleplay wrote as other members in the force. Actually makes me want to do the same, though I'm FAR worse at making a playthrough entertaining. Tried several playthroughs, and I'm too long in the tooth/unable to be concise on choosing what details to talk about. I also just dislike emulation).

Wow, really? I never played WotL version. They really just added another fight to shoehorn Argath again for no reason? Also, that really does point out how stupid the Faith/Brave design is. In order to make a boss harder, you have to actually go against things that make sense in the story. Part of me actually wonders though what it would have been like if Argath wasn't killed at the fort. Maybe he was given that power to lead there (which makes no sense as you pointed out) for reasons that could have been explained later (he could have been a scapegoat. He probably was, but it's not even mentioned). He gets used as a scapegoat, Argath becomes an even more bitter resentful hateful prick, and then works as an antithesis to Delita. Not against Delita specifically, but more like trying to attain the same goal on Larg's side of the field, but in a much worse way (and still earns him a place in history as one of the shittiest people). Hell, he could have been the guy who introduces us to Lord Killstolen, so that portion of story isn't just suddenly thrust into your face like it was. Maybe he continues playing Dycedarg's patsie, where he gets the chance to backstab Larg. The templar go to him and plant the idea to set it up to make it look like Dyce's plot due to the fungal poison. Then maybe his appearance here would make sense maybe. Instead of "the bishops made me a spooky ghost! I have no faith despite this, and I exist solely to shit in your cereal! Boss fight time!". As it stands, Argath isn't a sympathetic character. He's not a character worth revisiting after he dies. He's so forced here that it's hilarious. It's weird to think how Argath's character has potential since he is unique in this weird world. Everyone has some sort of motive or goal. Argath is aimlessly spiteful. After being given a chance to play with royals again, only to be treated as a scapegoat? At that point, he would probably just hate everybody, and that could lead to interesting story development (that I wouldn't trust these writers with, seeing as how horribly they handle anything even remotely dark). I dunno. I'm probably very wrong. Just so surprised they brought back Argath for something so pointless.

Yeah, imagine doing this doing 0 sideventure. No tavern jobs, no grinding, nothin'. This fight is literally "Not using Cid? Die.". It was exactly this fight where I stopped giving a shit. In fact, the fight often starts with Elmdor exploding most of my team as the first action of the fight. I then have to pray dice damage rolled low, and people didn't succumb to vampirism. Then I have to hope they and Cid can combine to do enough damage to kill Elmdor in response. If they don't, I'm dead. This was the fight that convinced me never to play FFT like this ever again. Or, maybe just never play FFT again. Ivalice has better games.

Oh, not using Orlandu are you? Oho. Ohohohohohohohoho.

Well, I have a thought on a sort of starting chapter. It would be based on something like

A great and massive nation fractured and in ruins after some catastrophic civil war. The main character's major motivation is to unite these fractures once again, because unity brings greater strength and safety. Not restoring the old kingdom, but forging a new one. One thing about Fates is that originally it was supposed to be If (I believe the Japanese version is still called If?). It was sold as being about choices, a constant chain of "what if". It was disappointing when ultimately were are given basically two choices (one of which has no real bearing on anything). Also, Corrin is supposedly an avatar of us, yet there is no opportunity to even minorly roleplay. For a character that supposedly represented us, he clearly wasn't us. If they want to have that sort of thing, they need to put in the actual effort. I feel like the above would leave enough room for this to happen. You could be the peaceful negotiator who unites hearts and minds, but is taken advantage of and backstabbed at every turn. You could be the ambitious manipulator who will play both sides to get what they believe is the ideal outcome, only to have your methods exposed, and the reigns of your kingdom are put in the hands of people you wanted away from it the most because you are the one that opened that opportunity to them. You could be the subjugator, who believes that peace isn't a choice, only to have your kingdom implode on itself much like the old kingdom did. Maybe you enforce neutrality between all these nations because the only way for there to be peace is when everyone leaves each other alone. Arching idea of the story is the impossibility of chasing perfection. Might be a bit sour way to end it, but I find such things more interesting. Would also bring up interesting moments. Let's say one of these tribe nations worship a war god (I'm ok with dragons or gods, as long as they aren't the big bad or the overarching cause of all the ills in the story/the world. That's gotten old). Lets say you subjugate/recruit some other nation first, and this nation hates the war god ("Your god is why the old kingdom fell in the first place! You and your god wanted this!"). So it comes time to try and recruit the war god nation, or subjugate them, or simply wipe them out. Would you go that far for peace? Slay one tribe so another can be happy? Or, do you subjugate them, and have them make peace which opens the possibility of distrust and ire having them fight eachother anyways? Maybe you leave them be, and your allied nation turns your back on you because their hate is that deep. A war god tribe is maybe a bad example, but you get my point. This also leaves open room for flavor. Though the most obvious comparison would be to the fall of Rome into the supposed dark ages, you could have this happen in any setting because as a fantasy world, we are not bound to our own history. One thing that I liked about Fates is that Hoshido was clearly a different place with different customs and culture (even if not totally fleshed out). Was a nice departure from older games being clearly European nation vs other European nation. It shows that IS is capable of at least doing that. Could have it based on dynasty era China. Russian era that lead up to Peter the Great. Feudal era Japan. The kingdoms of Africa. Ancient Egypt. Fire Emblem story-wise has room for a lot of potential if effort is put into it. It's made good on less, but there's potential for grander things. Maybe a bump to light mature rating would be worth it. While IS hasn't exactly hit the board on writing lately, from what I hear Echoes's additional writing is good? I know Echoes is based on very familiar territory, but if what I hear is true, then there's no reason to be full on pessimistic on the thought.

Adding three 0s to the team still comes out as 0 is the primary problem here. The only difference in fielding one or three is that you get a power ranger squad that does nothing instead of one do nothing unit. They can break dance all they want, we lose more than we gain in using them and the gain is 0. I say this more because I've tried this before because I get in over my head more often than not. I'm more familiar with the FE6 armors than any reasonable person should be. I use them regularly at the cost of dignity and self respect as basically everyone here knows. People know these units are unplayable, but I understand the intricate and subtle ways that Wendy and her ilk are walking trash cans. It's like the Chinese Room, except instead of a language, it's garbage. I know this isn't exactly encouraging or helpful dialogue, but I have legitimate regrets over this. There are more constructive things that could be talked about on the list. For example, the Fir credited with boss kills thing you brought up.

Hey dondon. Mostly just bored. @Irysa My mistake on Silence. Not sure why you're being confrontational about Bolting though. I wasn't trying to be if that was the impression I gave. Probably because the Bartre bits. Anyways, willing to concede the Lugh Lot thing. Been convinced on points given. As for Echidna and Bartre, I dislike assuming that somehow in her glorious enemy phase she's somehow switching between swords and axes to deal with a reaver,I dislike saying Bartre being able to actually take these hits and then saying "but you're better off dealing with it from range first" when he is specifically better at doing that as well. I dislike thinking that strats in FE6 go so perfectly that we apparently never need healing. In a way, I feel we both are being unreasonable here. Funny that using Bartre is mentioned, because I just got done using him. I generally felt like I could do more with him for longer. If we're just deciding that Echidna is better, I would still say the tier gap makes no sense. I see no reason for him to be in the same tier as the "we exist" tier. Bartre is immediately a good unit where him being used is fairly realistic for a while. Most people in mid tier are mostly trainable/usable but are overall mediocre. He just doesn't fit there (and I would argue Ellen fits those parameters, despite staffs being a special case). I could at least argue him over Igrene on basics alone. Igrene is pretty decent on one route (in fairness, it's the harder route) and is a great filler bow unit, but still has all the issues that come with being bow locked. Bartre's also been around longer, time spent being one of the better units on the force. Igrene shows up good, but by her appearance is not that special in comparison. @Baldrick One unit requiring two other units to do the job of one or two is the opposite of efficient. This isn't even about contribution, it is actively doing the opposite of what we want to justify a unit's existence. I promise you, this ends in tears.

Bolting: Well, why not make use of Bolting to spread out our Sleep uses? At this point I'm just trying to brainstorm. It's a 10 range magic blast. Even with 5 uses, it has to be useful somehow. ------------------- Ashtor: Considering he has 2 less base Str than Fir and hardly more durable to matter, he doesn't even outperform her that hard at base with Steel. 6 move and Light Brand is a thing, but I wouldn't say claiming Ashtor is another Deick while Fir is some random durdler. -------------------- Klein and Swordmasters: By nature, it's hard to get exp on a sniper. For Klein to actually have more luck than base Bartre, he would need to gain 6 levels in 8 chapters as a promoted unit as a sniper. As for Swordmasters, sure. That much is true. The fact Bartre can still make a realistic attempt where Echidna just feeds herself is still an advantage. More shots is better than no shots. Healing: Bartre needs less healing overall, especially due to the fact he isn't running at lance users with a sword. Advantage Bartre. Damage: Damage output is subjective. By the numbers yes, Echidna can do more damage against things that she doubles with a killer axe that has less than 12 def to Bartre using a basic iron axe. However, one can take a gander at 13's paladins. Bartre can one shot them with the poleaxe, a weapon specifically meant to kill these guys. Echidna does not one shot them with said weapon, so she must continue relying on the killer axe. To accomplish the same, she would need to crit twice. Bartre can either one shot with a crit (and thus being more economical with said killer axe), Echidna still gets two chances and a crit with a hit is still single digits HP. However, this doesn't account for the fact Bartre can see more action due to being more durable. In this same chapter, there are ballista. Other cavaliers (who wield crit weapons like Killer Lances and Axereavers). The cavs with the crit weapons one shot her with a crit, where Bartre can actually eat a crit and survive. The ballistas do a third of her health while Bartre a 4th. Paladins deal half of her health in damage. This is ignoring that the sniper and paladin also have a small chance to crit her as well. Even as soon as chapter 12. The archers typically deal 12 damage to her at roughly 50s accuracy, dark mages 13. Bartre is basically able to take on 1 or 2 extra fights before being concerned. Even despite her doubling with a hand axe or light brand, Bartre still deals more damage in one shot of an iron bow. Bartre can actually one shot dark mages with steel, where Echidna would need to hit twice with a hand axe (at which point, they share the same accuracy). He can even double the steel axe fighters that block your way to the throne and attempt to clog the way out. These are trends that essentially carry on throughout the course of the game. People see her damage output with a killer and pretend that her flaws don't exist. She has to play significantly safer where Bartre doesn't. Echidna's performance deteriorates far harder than Bartre does. There are some things Echidna can do but Bartre can't, but the reverse is also true. Echidna's flaws get handwaived so hard it's mindboggling. It may be due to the fact that people just assume Echidna and her route are better so they don't ever actually use Bartre. --------------------- Armads: Bartre has A rank, and is big enough at base to run at people. The answer to your question is "not hard". Also, no she doesn't. She fails to ORKO, and in response they have 9 displayed crit on her. I'm not even remotely ok with having nearly double digit percent chances of restarting the map. Also, one Manakete doesn't move, and the other is behind a door after a small hallway, which has extremely limited ways to target him. Bartre can just shoot it once with steel, and then anyone with the sword rank can do the same job (without randomly exploding). ----------------------- Garret: Garret has 13 con, and lacks bows. Garret is essentially useless against anything with a sword or range, and wielding heavier weapons gets him doubled more certainly than Bartre does (such as the Brave Axe). Garret looks minorly better on paper, but is far more narrow in things he can actually do. Btw, have you noticed how in this comparison between Bartre and Echidna that I haven't brought up other characters out of the blue to compare Echidna to? Bad habit I used to have. ------------------------ Lugh: I'm actually doing another playthrough, and I think I gave Lugh less credit than he deserved for chapter 4, maybe a bit of 5. Much as nomads eat him, he is also one of the few characters that has the accuracy to actually hit them (so he is more realistically finishing them off). Same basically applies to mercenaries. Laus's cavaliers are such a pain in the ass to deal with that I can't really handwave Lugh's accurate chip damage/finishing. He weirdly earns kills by being the most realistic character to land the finishing blow anyways. I would still say Lot with the poleaxe shouldn't be ignored though. Letting Laus just storm you is a worse idea, because that will take significantly longer, and you only open yourself to getting overwhelmed even worse. It's not even LTC, I think taking the aggressive approach is smarter. It even opens up opportunity for other units to get exp, such as Lugh or Shanna (Shanna otherwise is tasked specifically with the duty of rushing for the villages, something you have more leeway with going aggressive). Also gives Lugh the opportunity to hang out with some spare dudes by the lake, skipping rocks and killing pirates while your bosskillers attempt to wrestle with Erik on his stupid throne. Fuck Erick. Anyways, I may have turned around a little on Lugh vs Lot, but even with effort and trying in a more casual run, Lugh by chapter 8 is still just level 7. If 9 speed isn't good enough for Oujay, then it doesn't let Lugh have any better. He's still painfully fragile. He still doesn't hit that hard. Looking at his early promotion, I would rather early promote Clarine. 3 less magic, but 15 speed actually doubles things (as opposed to 11). Also, probably pulls her out of getting one shotted. Also also, staff users promote and basically have elite as far as combat goes. So, she still levels fairly well. In short, while I did give him less credit than he deserves, I still feel generally underwhelmed. ----------------------- Dorothy: If you're suggesting we split our forces on this map just so she can claim to shoot once at a wyvern, you are insane. Her accuracy even with an iron bow is in the 60s. Lugh and her can't do it alone, Who are we sending over with them? Why are we not just barreling down the right side? We have to rescue Zealot and Treck anyways, and we can do it as soon as they show up. Splitting our forces doesn't sound smart here. NO! No. Don't do this. Trust me, this will get you nowhere. That is not as simple as it sounds. You are still requiring three units to kill one. Three of the worst performing units in the game on their own. Three units that by nature HAVE to be carried everywhere to even see action, let alone accomplish anything useful. That's bad.

On HM, not using Deick makes earlygame a pain in the ass, but he's not so good or important that he's irreplaceable. Just pretty good. Rutger on the other hand? He's basically your only real bosskiller for a long while. Not using him is a legitimate pain in the ass.

Bolting: While true that that is a fact, I feel like there has to be a more reliable use for bolting. Killing the 16x bolting sage welcomer asshole comes to mind, or getting some breathing space in chapter 20 Sacae (rudest starting area for a map ever). ----------- Astor and Fir: Ok, he's kinda better but he's not exactly blowing her out of the water. ------------ Weapons: Hammer is indeed booty sweat, not that Bartre needs it. He can basically do the same job with steel weapons. Also, I forget if weapon disadvantage effects slayer mt. I remember that being a thing in one of the games in the series, but not specifically this one. Regardless, there are still issues I have. Wielding a sword gives these enemies realistic hit rates, and have a habit of doing over half health to her. Bartre can run at these guys and basically not care. I feel there's a difference between being able to use a thing and required to use a thing that is being missed here. -------------- Light Brand and Sacae: You not finding enough ways to make use of a 20 durability weapon only proves my point in that the weapon is not actually that useful. It basically tells me you couldn't find roughly 10 or so fights in the game to do it. 10 fights is not a lot. Secondly, Bartre would need to be critted 4 times to go down in Sacae or eat 2 before he's in significant danger as opposed to Echidna who eats 1 crit and is in immediate danger. Thirdly, 70 acc on Light Brand vs 80 on iron bow makes the accuracy difference 4. 4 hit, or double digit damage advantage? Bartre can risk considerably more exposure, and accomplish more with said exposure, while I have to basically tuck Echidna away to basically do 10 damage to an enemy. This is also ignoring things like the fact other enemies exist here. Like swordmasters in 19. You think Echidna can throw down with a swordmaster? Bartre has a gun. Not perfect, but I'm also not lying to myself in thinking it'd be more helpful. Proud of Sue, Klein and Igrene. They also have nothing to do with comparing Bartre to Echidna. Also, they're arguably not better than Bartre in this specific spot. Klein has 10 or so more base hit, but significantly less durability while facing the same crit rates. Igrene needs 2 speed in what time she has between join time and Sacae to avoid being doubled, as otherwise it's a worse situation for her (though I was unaware she had 11 base defense. If she can get that 2 speed, she'd actually be pretty good here). Not gonna touch on Sue. Fair enough on chapter 12 priests. They are annoying enough, and I forgot about them. -------------------- Enemy phase: I'm arguing that Echidna's enemy phase is not actually better. She doubles, and yet Bartre still manages to do roughly the same amount of damage anyways (and is better against higher defense enemies/enemies Echidna can't double). They have roughly the same avoid, except Bartre has 12 more HP and 2 more Def. Despite popular belief, not a lot of enemies actually double Bartre until way later (at which point I could argue Echidna doesn't do enough damage). Even consider getting doubled by a Falco. He would take roughly 38 damage if both hits landed. He could still eat steel from another pegasi and survive, nevermind javelins. Even chapter 21, if it's that bad you can just have him wield Armads. Only time he has ever asked for anything special, and it's probably the best chapter to make use of it. Yeah. He doesn't double. Neither do a lot of other people on the roster. Easier problem to work around than deteriorating strength and durability. Again though, ultimately it's a lot closer than I make it out to be, but a lot of the difference between Bartre and Echidna is mostly due to overrating Bartre's speed problem and overrating Echidna's speed advantage, and that it somehow neutralizes the advantages Bartre has. I am merely trying to point out that their performance is not so gap-defining as to justify a tier difference. Also, Fir support -------------------- Lugh and Lot: Chapter 4 is a tough deal with it situation. Risking it sucks. Letting a cavalier do what they want is even worse. Being unable to kill the cavalier to let you kill the nomad, even worse. One of these situations would cause us to need to position Lugh away from danger or else he dies. Much as it sucks, the risks need to be taken, and Lot allows you to take those risks. It wouldn't even necessarily end up in a reset, due to lance vs axe acc (hopeful, but in the realm of possibility). In fact, if I don't take those risks, then positioning Lugh safely is even harder. There's 2 nomads, but they're a big enough threat that if not taken care of, backliners could die. That includes Lugh. I would even argue it's more notable in 4 than 7. 7's issue is that all the enemies up there have 1-2 ranged weapons. Marcus will dunk a fool or two and then get equip-traded, but honestly you're probably better off just trying to throw things at the myriad of other enemies out there and hold until you're in position to just blast through the line (so realistically, after the two aggro wyverns are dealt with). Nice, but doesn't feel necessary like it does in 4. Also, why the fuck are you bringing Dorothy? Most of the enemies here wield lances, and between Sue, Lugh chip (he does deserve credit for this) Marcus, Zealot, and Rutger with the killing edge, I feel you are heavily overkilling on answers to wyverns. In the event that something wrong occurs on the several fronts of this chapter, Lot can basically walk anywhere and be virtually safe. He can kill soldiers, block armors, trade off poleaxe to attack cavaliers, attempt a killer axe swing at a wyvern if you're feeling particularly ballsy (and if he has the rank. He might?). Dorothy on the other hand is a literal bag of crap. Like. Wow. Mercenaries literally just kill her, and she is working with a pea shooter. You are inviting all that trouble on yourself because she is your 6th answer to wyverns? From that point on yeah, Lot kinda becomes meh and is forever meh. Not trash, but not good (He's Geese with a con stat and, hilariously enough, better growths and promotion bonuses). Lugh on the other hand basically doesn't stop sucking until 16x, at which point he's good player phase and a healer. Nice, but again that's a lot of effort and putting up with his garbage-ness until then. Even as you train him later on before the promotion, enemies are still capable of one shotting him (ballistas in 13 are particularly awful examples). Maybe I'm just biased. I find that he requires so much coddling that I feel I might as well just use Lilina. At least she will be leveling faster, dropping nuclear bombs eventually and being a realistic support for at least a few people (though maybe not realistic. Roy is usually in someone's saddlebags, Ashtor's both not a great support for her nor is he long term, and Cecilia's on a horse. 10 to C, but still). ---------------------- I don't really care enough about Bors visiting villages to argue about it really. Sure, thing he can do.

New quoting stuff annoys me. Anywho. First point in your post is a nitpick: in what universe are you actually hitting a boss on a throne with bolting? There are more realistic targets to try using this on. About Astor: Well yeah, but I don't think I would purposefully use him outside of the chapters where I require a thief. Like, that's why talking about thieves is weird, imo at least. He's that high because he does his job while not dying to purge in 16. If we argue about gold and items, he might as well be in top. Also, I wouldn't value his combat too highly. He's not exactly outfighting Fir, for example. ------ Echidna's Luck: Rutger is a weird case where he's essential to the point where we just kinda have to deal with it. It is a problem he has, but unlike Echidna, Rutger has the luxury of having an important job that very few can fulfill (and those that do don't do the job as well until Percival. It also has nothing to do between Echidna and Bartre. Point is simple. Echidna has to deal with it, Bartre doesn't. Weapons: Armors are not so common and unanswerable that I require an Armorslayer on every sword user. Also, you do not have a lot available. You have the starting one (which may be broken or close to it anyways), and Oujay's. You can't buy new ones till chapter 21, which is a pointless gesture because past Murdock there are two generals left in the game. Wrymslayer is an even worse case in that you only have one until Sacae/Ilia, and Echidna's not that durable. She's not exactly going to storm a wyvern pack by herself, and in that case it's less desirable than Bartre shooting a wyvern with a bow. Light Brand is probably the most limited commodity of those weapons. 20 uses and it's gone. Bartre can do roughly the same damage in one shot with a more common and less desired weapon that Echidna would require 2 uses of said weapon. This is ignoring that we could have been using it between the chapter we get it and her recruitment. I also don't see the situation occuring commonly where she would use it for anything more than you would a bow anyways. It's not like you would use it in melee on purpose. Killer Swords are the same vein as Killer Axes, except even worse. Paying more money to use a weaker weapon that will face disadvantage more often. Also, Echidna has to fight Rutger to get a hold of any. Performance: Accuracy issues I have no choice but to concede. Echidna has like 15 hit over him. The avoid and durability, however, I can argue. First off, Echidna's avoid advantage is not significant. 42 vs 34. 8 is getting there, but not too significant. However, this implies she isn't being weighed down, of which she will constantly if she wants to do any real damage. Iron reduces it to 6, Killer reduces it to 4, Hand Axes and Silver to 2. Anything heavier and not only does she have less avoid, she can easily lose her primary advantage wielding something heavier than killer. I also would not depend on Hand Axes to accomplish much of anything. That weapon is dependable in the hands of precisely no one. Even then, she's packing 19 mt with it at base. I would honestly prefer Bartre with a gun. Speaking of bows, you mention Sacae nad Bartre having difficulty hitting stuff. First: even with her 15 hit lead, Bartre is still more accurate with a bow than Echidna is with a hand axe. Secondly, Echidna isn't doubling a damn thing in Sacae (in fact, using a hand axe puts her in danger of being doubled herself). Even if hit rate wasn't a thing, Echidna's damage output is atrocious here. It's also where her luck takes the harshest turn, as many enemies here use short bows and have high skill. The short bow alone has 4 displayed crit on her. 60s displayed hit with an iron bow in a world where that's actual enemy phase with better defense, luck and HP to survive through it all while doing considerable damage? That's about as acceptable as you can get in Sacae. To be better, you need to actually be Miledy or Rutger (or Shin I guess). Ilia is also hardly a problem for Bartre. While sure, Echidna around now could probably use iron to do what Bartre needs silver to do (a weapon literally only they can use anyways. Also, she won't be ORKOing riders with a hand axe before we even go there), Falcoknights are another beast. First, Bartre may not even be doubled by them. Secondly, Echidna can't ORKO them without a killer crit (she can't double with silver axe's weight). Bartre with a steel bow can, however. I would also still argue Bartre is better at fighting mercs and heroes with a bow, as Echidna's speed advantage doesn't cut it against them (also, luck issues in melee).. The number of enemies that actually double Bartre are not so common as to deter his vastly superior durability advantage. The times he does are times that are just as bad, if not worse for Echidna. Echidna's speed doesn't auto win combat due to her meh strength, and her requiring the use of heavy weapons. Swords as a side arm are questionable at best in her hands as they don't do a lot of damage, and come with crit risks. Accuracy is a thing she has, but Bartre has durability which in itself is a dependable trait, especially since he has an existing luck stat. Still don't see how she is outperforming Bartre by a tier. Sure, Echidna's routes can be a touch shorter, we get more reliability through Bartre route's extra stat boosters that effect the rest of the game. I would not ignore that. As for the buyable killer axes in Echidna's route, I just remember that being something that was in Echidna's favor way back when so I thought I would mention it. As for Barrier, I'm pretty certain that matters for exactly 16x. Even with Barrier, she would still face roughly 80s from staffs. Cute, but I wouldn't say it's going to matter often. Past that, enemies will have too much magic and they'll both be SOL. ------- About Ballista: The ballista will fire at your guys first, and since you are going to be sending people to clear the way for them, that will happen. The refugees are actually under no danger at all. Not even remotely difficult. ------- About Fae: Honestly haven't used her much, but do they really target her like automatically due to her low HP or something? i'm not certain if she makes the enemy AI dumb like that, so I could do with an enlightenment in that regard. If that's not the case, then so what? They just target someone else, and Fae hasn't actually helped us. But, as I said, I am ignorant in the Fae ways. -------- Lo and Lught: Lugh's "contributions" early on include maybe hitting a cavalier for 7 damage of his 35 HP, while this ignores things like how nomads early ORKO him, or that fighters in 5 OHKO him with hand axes. Lugh is ok in 7 in unique ways like accurately hitting a tough wyvern knight or melting down knights quicker, sure. Lot has been an actually usable and contributing unit during this time (you are probably bringing Lot to chapter 7 too for example). In fact, he is notable in 4 where a Poleaxe is most usable in his hands (Marcus probably doesn't have the rank. Marcus also has a silver lance, so he's not complaining). Accuracy sucks, but for how bad you need to kill every enemy as you see them in 4, the fact he OHKOs certain cavaliers is something only he and Ward can do (and Ward is considerably worse with it). Lot isn't just ok in earlygame, he's legitimately pretty good. Past that, sure, he's eternally ok status. I would take ok over Lugh sucking for a majority of the game. Consider that on promotion, Lugh has 15 mag and 16 speed. With basic fire, he has 20 mt. Enemies by then will have more than 40 health, so he is still failing to do the thing you say he does. 16 speed doesn't even double a number of enemies. It's basically just enemies wielding steel axes/lances, which by then isn't a feat worth bragging about. His ass is still very kickable. Lugh probably starts being good roughly around chapter 21 where he can aircalibur down even wyvern lords, but that is way too much time and effort for my tastes for a narrow (if good) use. ---------- Gonzales: Yeah, I don't really have a compelling argument. It's just...Come on, man. Dude used to be high tier. I haven't seen a character drop that hard ever. It's reasonable too, just...Argh. ----------- Geese: I find it weird that he can assert that credit of contribution when every axe user aside from Ward and Gonzales can claim the same. Just the fact that he exists with the weapon rank for that one tiny thing is just so flimsy, and yet it works. I'm upset. ------------ Bors: Past a certain point, Wolf stops being necessary and can get to the village in time. As for the Armorslayer, Thany can just fly up the mountain, trade from Merlinus, then pass it over for the boss. I know he's forced in these early chapters, but his contributions are "has a pulse, most likely to visit a village". It's so tiny that I'm unwilling to accept it on comedic grounds.

Well in that case, lets look at that question from a different perspective. Why does Echidna need killer axes? Why do we need Echidna to have Killer axes? Fight paladins? Bartre can just use the poleaxe, or shoot them (and not risk a crit in the process). Wyverns? Echidna would need to land a crit and a hit to kill them in the first place with her 24 mt. Hell, with the one free killer axe we get, Bartre is possibly more efficient with the one free one he gets (don't quote me on that though, those other two guys talking a storm here could prove otherwise). Pegasi? Bartre's potentially buff enough to one shot them with a melee weapon (a silver axe, of which few in the game even have the weapon rank to use, and Percival doesn't need it). Also, we are depending on 20s in crit to occasionally kill a scrub maybe every now and then (and probably needing to hit twice anyways). At that point, why even waste the money? Just use iron and give the kills to other people. Not like we need Echidna to go on lategame, and it doesn't cheapen her contributions.I'm just saying even if that is the advantage that gives her the edge over Bartre, I don't think she's so outperforming him as to deserve being in a different tier. @Interdimensional Observer I will take Wendy being plausably usable over Sophia dying when looked at funny and trying to 4HKO people at best with 74 base accuracy. Also, unique? You have to train her to 10 just to become an E rank staffbot. Hardly unique. Also, Wendy doesn't have to do this while avoiding Purge bishops. I know arguing who the worst character is is dumb (FE10 died for a reason), but implying it's not Sophia is crazy pills.

-Echidna doubling is nice, but the strength gap is fairly massive. Let's take an enemy with 10 defense. Echidna with iron is packing 21 mt, and Bartre packs 30. Despite doubling, she does a grand total of 2 damage extra. 10 def is not unusual around the time you hit the bridge, and every defense over she loses 2 damage to Bartre's 1. She has to make up the difference using more expensive weapons. Granted that she can, Bartre doesn't require expensive items to be as good as he is. In fact, he can make use of generally less demanded items like steel weapons, of which you probably have some lying around from Dorothy and Ward, or other less demanded weapons. As for luck, A. 1 more base luck than Zealot is luck issues, and B. Tate does indeed have a bad base that she recovers from with fast leveling speed and 40% growth, two things Echidna doesn't have. Echidna can't really fight promoted enemies without risking displayed crit, and even occasionally normal enemies as we start getting closer to lategame. 6 base with 20% growth is ignorance. Any random mercenary has a chance of shredding her.

YO COLONEL IT'S BEEN FOREVER WHAT'S GOOD Real talk though, I feel like I would want to have a nice docket of discussion. As someone who plays cart and doesn't have the luxury of savestates most of my thoughts are theoretical in nature. However, I feel like a lot of low turn count or efficient play in FE6 is more unrealistic in some sense as opposed to other games. The nature of inaccurate weapons and enemies having actual stats generally makes uncertainty a fact of life in FE6. Strats are made inconsistent on the basis that things will inevitably go wrong in any given chapter. Makes FE6 actually fairly difficult to discuss at the finer level. So, I only really have theoretics to offer. Others can take the discussions from there, even if there is nowhere. Old habits die hard. -A god tier. It's not like in FE8 with Seth being an untouchable golden god. In FE6, it's more the idea that there is no such thing as an efficient game without these characters. Like Marcus. Marcus is hardly a god, but you aren't realistically running this game without him. Earlygame is many many many turns extra without him, nevermind the safety and dependency he offers in doing his job. Rutger. He's basically the one true boss killer in a game that demands you have one. However, this is where things get tricky. Saul could end up here on the basis of being able to use the Warp Staff as soon as you get it, or Ellen (man that's weird to think). Niime could be here, while someone like Miledy wouldn't. Miledy isn't a necessary character, she is merely the best all around character. If that makes sense. Maybe name it something other than god tier? The name would be misleading in FE6. -Why exactly is Astor in high? Thieves are stupid to rate, but I wouldn't say he's that great. Certainly not better than important cavaliers. -Why is there a tier difference between Echidna and Bartre? If it's about performance, Echidna's shitty luck and poor survivability makes her iffy in practice vs on paper. Bartre could be blind, the fact he can attack and not randomly explode shouldn't be ignored. Also, bows. Bows are a better accurate side arm than swords. Bows let Bartre actually do something in Sacae, for example. It's not like Echidna outperforms him in Ilia either. If it's about routes, I have doubts on Echidna's route being better. sure, killer axes, cute. Only Echidna or Lott at the time can use them realistically (and Lott doesn't even put them to particularly good use). By the time you have other people who can use them, they become available. Even then, I could argue they are frivolties. Is spending a good portion of money to say Echidna has 20 more crit for some extra chapters more important than say an extra pair of boots later down the line? Bartre doesn't depend on you buying specialty weapons, he can mostly function on iron and whatever nifty shit you find. Secondly, while Echidna gives you killer axes and 3K extra, Bartre's route supplies you with an Energy Ring that doesn't exist in Echidna's route. We've been talking about Rutger hitting benchmark strength numbers, and an Energy Ring removes all our worries. Hell, it could let Fir be the actual replacement people claim she could be. Gonzales being 5 levels lower is basically pointless with his stats, and I would value the fact he starts near the action (and essentially a chapter earlier) to get a better head start is more meaningful. You also get Tate and Klein a chapter earlier for what it's worth, and I would argue Elphin is better than Lalum. I would take extra beef over a minor amount of speed. In the least, I would say Bartre and Echidna shouldn't be seperated by an entire tier. -Lot being under Fae and Lugh boggles my mind. Fae is arguable in the sense that Fae is an immediate dragonslayer that quickly becomes hard to kill despite her very limited performance time. That arguably makes sense to me. Wielding slayer axes early vs the cavalier parade of chapter 4, or just being an axe dude in general in earlygame is just great. Lugh on the other hand has the contribution power of "vaguely better than Wolt". Wolt could not exist past chapter 1 and you wouldn't notice. Being the step above that is not exactly powerful performance. If we're just funneling kills into him (kills that Lot is earning honestly by himself), then how much do we need to funnel into his dork mouth to make him functional? You need a lot of speed or a lot of explosive power for western isles. Dieck is not fast enough for the isles. For Lugh to actually get to that point, he basically needs to be level 15. 14 levels in 6 chapters doesn't strike me as realistic. Hell, if we're being realistic he's probably spending all that feeding not really outperforming base Lillina. By the time he does get over his sucking problem, He's still not exactly a wonderful combat. His ass is still fairly kickable, namely. All this effort to have a basically ok lategame character vs Lot, who is a fairly ok character that didn't necessarily require funneling. -Honestly, Lugh shouldn't be that much higher than Lili. Arbitarily right above her and maybe Garret on the basis of existing in forced chapters where he's still relevant chip damage. Little bastard's been overrated forever. -Gonzales being lower mid hurts me, but requiring secret books to be the god he is is a thing in a game where you can buy boots. I just...want him to not be in lower mid. Please? -Geese should be below Douglas. Geese is basically never competent, and requires effort to continue being never competent. Hugh costs you boots but at least he doesn't suck, and Douglas can at least not die to physical things which is a use. -I am the last person to talk about armor knights, but honestly Bors should be in utter shit with Barth and Wendy. Bors is in the same boat as Wolt, but worse. In fact, you're better off not using him in chapter 1 because to do Wolt's job, he has to die in the process. You are utter shit when it is better NOT to use you when I have no choice in the matter of your fielding. -And yes, Sophia and Wendy should swap. Sophia is literally impossible to use. I don't care that leveling to 10 and promoting lets you become a healbot, getting Sophia to 10 is an impossible task. Wendy can at least realistically attack something and A. hit it, and B. not explode. Sophia's ranged attack has no value because it is the equivelant of shouting "boo" at her enemy. Wendy sucks, but she at least vaguely resembles a unit if you look at her at the right angle and light.

Question: When is Rutger promoting? We just assuming he eats the hero crest immediately? Because chapter 8 is easy enough to assume we didn't need to do that. 11/2 sounds like sandbagging to be honest. Also, I feel like there's an important distinction between 11 rounds and 2. At some point, it shouldn't really matter how good Dieck is without promotion (of which, btw, he is kinda sorta meh without promo. I would honestly start using Fir or Gonzales over him). Hell, that number alone should really cement Rutger as a god simply because he is almost single handedly responsible for saving you a majority of your time. In fact, why is Percival above him? An efficient run isn't efficient without Rutger almost by definition. Sure, Percival is literally the best combat unit in the game aside from Miledy, and he comes without any investment like that, but unless you purposefully filled your army with mouthbreathers, having an army of asskickers shouldn't even be that special by the time he joins. Rutger on the other hand will still arguably be your best bosskiller at that time on the basis of crit and accuracy.

Going to concur with the above. Valvo (I know his name is Valbar, but I'm calling him what he is) getting some minor res will most likely not matter at all with how hard a magic user can hit. On the other hand, if someone can go from somewhat concerned about magic to straight up not caring, that is of greater use. Knowing you can just throw 1 guy at huge magic problems shouldn't be undervalued. That being said, that gap is very narrow. Pegasi don't care about magic already, as do demonslayers. Everyone else basically has 0 res. If this were a no grind run, I might actually say exp, but if you wanna grind then yeah.