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How would people feel about if there is enough interest and discussion. Piggybacking off Icy Toasts thread here If we were to set up tournaments or like a semi competitive metagame around this concept? Like we usually make a meta around the LTC aspects, but how about this as well? Thoughts?

First I'm gonna gauge if there is any interest in my opinion on this series so far. I figured, having a nice side project I can do when I'm not absolutely swamped might be a good idea. Dragon Ball Super is currently done with 38 episodes, surprisingly there has been a good bit of comedy and action especially in the most recent arc, despite some animation inconsistencies and such, I think the series is actually pretty good as of right now, although issues I had with the later parts of Z (Mostly Post-Cell Arc) are still fairly prevalent. My backstory with the Dragon Ball franchise goes quite aways back, when I first saw the series on Toonami, more accurately I saw the fight between Super Saiyan Goku and Perfect Cell, I was hooked, being someone who had grown up with the likes of TMNT, Power Rangers and Beast Wars, I had found something else to get my young self addicted to, I also got into Kenshin, Big-O, ZOIDS, Sailor Moon, Yu Yu Hakusho and a number of other series around the same time. I have seen every episode of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, Dragon Ball GT, and the redo of Z named Kai, at least once in my life time, I've also seen the majority of the movies and all the TV specials, I read the manga some time ago as well, I own quite a number of the games to their credit. My preferred series of the whole lot is Dragon Ball, the adventures of Young Goku, Bulma, Yamcha, Krillin, Tenshinhan (My personal favorite character), Chaotzu, Master Roshi and the rest are magical and have really good comedic moments as well as overall the best power balance the series had, although it was somewhat retained in Z until after Cell, my favorite characters tend to have come out of Dragon Ball, so if I lament the lameness that the human characters barely do anything anymore, that's a big part why. The way I'd be doing this recap is episode by episode, at my own pace as I have tons of other obligations including smash tournaments to run being the smaller of them. However I would like to know, if you're interested, how would you like me to do the write ups? Like would you want some screenshots or clips of the series involved or do you just want me to write about it? Etc, it'll likely be awhile before it starts, because I'll have to watch the episodes I have already again, so I can give accurate summaries and such.

Welcome to JBF, "Joined By Fate", the next smash tournament series ran by yours truly, while RoSF (Revival of Serenes Forest Smash) ends with our final 4, I've been meaning to get this one off the ground for some time. We are looking to start this series on Friday the 18th, with stricter timeframes to do matches, 3/4 days per round, however when Easter comes along that set of days will be more lax and we will get there when we get there. If we max out sign ups before then, we might be able to get some matches done with, if its convenient. The Bracket is here -> http://sforestsmash.challonge.com/JbF2016 This will be on Wii U, I will probably run a side 3DS tourney sometime in the near future however, but I cannot record matches as I lack a 3DS capture card at this time. Ruleset 3 Stock 8 Minutes Best 2 of 3, except in Finals, best 3 out of 5 Double Elimination No Customs The Stage List is gonna be from my scene (Blackwolf in Spokane), if you have issues with it. I'll be willing to change it around, just ask me for certain stages and present a case for or against one. Starter Stages ● Battlefield ● Final Destination ● Smashville ● Dreamland 64 ● Town & City Counterpick Stages ● Duck Hunt ● Lylat Cruise ● Omega Stages* * Treated as Final Destination in banning phase. If Final Destination is banned, Omega Stages are banned and vice versa. Players must adhere to the standards of stage picks, first the starter stage is decided by umm... Not sure in this case, Could rng roll or something else, but then whomever wins will cross a stage, then the other person will, etc, out of the starter stages only for the first match. Or the 2 can just agree to a stage to start on with no hassle. Whomever wins a match, can strike 2 stages and the person who lost may select out of the remaining legal stages. There is also something called Dave's Stupid rule, where you cannot counter-pick to a stage you've won on in the set Character Changes - While you can change your characters during the set, you must tell your opponent you are switching and who to, as is proper in an official tournament. Unless you 2 agree to be secretive, I don't mind either way There is also the Gentleman's agreement, in which both players can agree to play on a nonlegal stage, this also can override Dave's Stupid Rule Mii Fighters are allowed, but they must be 1111 set, sorry folks. - Matches will be recorded and sent to me, may as well add my NNID which is Jedisupersonic, in advance to prep for this. I will also be uploading them to my channel for a tourney playlist, I have a capture card so time doesn't matter. - Please give me your NNID when you sign up, even if you did previously, just for consistency sake Sign Ups + NNIDs 1. Jedi - Jedisupersonic 2. General Horace - WAKKAWAKKAWAKKA 3. Euklyd - euklyd 4. Elieson - Elieson 5. Clarinets - Pick1e 6. Batter The Beast - lolinternets 7. Aura Wolf - Octaivian 8. AlexTheClumsyGrandmaster - Alex1111 9. Yoshi2398 - Albee2398 10. Dotty - RagamuffinDotty 11. Comet - Comet7 12. Tsunami922 - Tsunami922 13. LordTaco42 - LordTaco42 14. DreadFighter - NewerLuigi 15. Shezzy. - muforfun 16. XaosLogos - ZeRoToXiN Schedule DEADLINES - IF YOU DO NOT MEET THESE WITHOUT GOOD REASON, I WILL HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO DISQUALIFY YOU The one who made an active effort to get the match done, will advance. If you have IRL reasons for not being able to do the match, please tell me. You may play games ahead of schedule, this will help the due process if you can, but just stick to this as your guideline, also Easter is gonna give a extra day for break Round 1 Begins proper on 3/18 - Ends on 3/21 Round 2/Round 1 Losers Begins 3/22 - Ends 3/26 Round 3/Round 2 Losers Begins 3/28 - Ends 3/30 Winners Finals/Round 3 Losers Begins 4/1 - Ends 4/3 Losers Quarters Begins 4/4 - Ends 4/6 Losers Semis Begins 4/7 - Ends 4/9 Losers Finals Begins 4/10- Ends 4/12 Grand Finals Begins 4/13 - Ends 4/15 Links to matches done so far Round 1 Dotty vs General Horace Jedi vs LordTaco Aura Wolf vs Yoshi DreadFighter vs AlexTheClumsyGrandmaster Comet vs Euklyd Batter vs Clarinets Tsunami vs XaosLogos Elieson vs Shezzy Round 1 Losers General Horace vs XaosLogos LordTaco vs Clarinets Yoshi vs Shezzy Comet forfeit so DreadFighter autoadvanced Round 2 Dotty vs Tsunami Jedi vs Batter Aura Wolf vs Elieson Alex forfeit due to a family trip, so Euklyd auto advances. Round 2 Losers Tsunami vs DreadFighter Alex Forfeit so Horace advanced Elieson vs LordTaco Batter vs Shezzy Winners Semi's Dotty vs Jedi Aura Wolf vs Euklyd Round 3 Losers Elieson vs General Horace Batter vs Tsunami Winners Finals Dotty vs Aura Wolf Losers Quarters Jedi vs General Horace Batter vs Euklyd Losers Semi's Batter Vs General Horace Losers Finals Aura Wolf vs Batter Grand Finals Dotty vs Aura Wolf

With Joined by Fate coming to a close soon, there is some things we need to address. Anyone who joined RoSF/JBF is welcome to participate 1. Did you like the strict timelines? 2. Halberd was voted to be tried as a legal stage in the RoSF thread, how should we handle this addition? 3. Should Game & Watch Hammer be the main stage striking method at the start of a set? (This is where both players pick G&W and use his Judge [side B] Move and whomever has the higher number gets first stage strike) 4. If we were to do a more gimmicky tourney what would you like to see? 2 examples of suggestions i've been given are. Customs Tourney via Dotty, which is simply we can use the fighters many custom moves, but everything else is standard Pick my Character via Jotaro Kujo, which when all 16 players are locked in, they'd select each others characters available throughout the tourney, and they'd be locked to that player 5. Are there any major rules, you don't agree with that we should maybe consider altering for the next regular tourney? That being Radiant Confrontation. 6. What kind of timeframe would you all like to see for Radiant Confrontation starting up? Feel free to bring anything else up as well.

Now its been awhile since I've been able to go to a tourney, I may be able to this month and next month, but I'd like to play in a tourney setting with you guys again. Note there will likely be a 3DS one down the road as well. Bracket is up http://sforestsmash.challonge.com/SFRevival2016 Ruleset 3 Stock (Experimental and Texas seems to enjoy this) 8 Minutes Best 2 of 3, except in Finals, best 3 out of 5 Double Elimination No Customs The Stage List is gonna be from my scene (Blackwolf in Spokane), if you have issues with it. I'll be willing to change it around, just ask me for certain stages and present a case for or against one. Starter Stages ● Battlefield ● Final Destination ● Smashville ● Dreamland 64 ● Town & City Counterpick Stages ● Duck Hunt ● Lylat Cruise ● Omega Stages* * Treated as Final Destination in banning phase. If Final Destination is banned, Omega Stages are banned and vice versa. Players must adhere to the standards of stage picks, first the starter stage is decided by umm... Not sure in this case, Could rng roll or something else, but then whomever wins will cross a stage, then the other person will, etc, out of the starter stages only for the first match. Whomever wins a match, can strike 2 stages and the person who lost may select out of the remaining legal stages. There is also something called Dave's Stupid rule, where you cannot counter-pick to a stage you've won on in the set There is also the Gentleman's agreement, in which both players can agree to play on a nonlegal stage, this also can override Dave's Stupid Rule Mii Fighters are allowed, but they must be 1111 set, sorry folks. I am not looking for a set number, I am looking for interest and going from there, if we have uneven numbers, I'll deal with it. Prize. I actually am looking into a prize for this competition to send the winner whenever that happens, but I'm still trying to pay rent and all that so... give me time lol Looking to start this around 1/24-1/30, But if we get 32 people, Euk and I will set up the bracket and people can do their matches early, but there will be no stress to do matches until the actual starting date. Matches will be recorded and sent to me, may as well add my NNID which is Jedisupersonic, in advance to prep for this. I will also be uploading them to my channel for a tourney playlist, I am getting a capture card so time doesn't matter. Sign Ups + NNID's 1. Jedi - Jedisupersonic 2. Aura Wolf - Octaivian 3. Water Mage - WaterStarLight 4. Radiance - Alvicito 5. Elieson - Elieson 6. Knight of Argentum - Silverknight998 7. Tsunami - Tsunami922 8. Comet - Comet7 9. General Horace - WAKKAWAKKAWAKKA 10. Knife - omar8193 11. Miss Kira - FairwayGamers 12. Batter - lolinternets 13. Gorgar - Gorgar 14. Jotaro Kujo - TheTinyImp 15. StardustRicon - MrStardustRicon 16. IceSage - IceSage776 17. Shin - TheMightyShin 18. Dotty - RagamuffinDotty 19. NeedTheFriction - celalec 20. Pink Forde - CZ-Adam 21. Zerker - AlexZerker 22. N7 - N7_Average_Azn 23. Gemma - DunamisKing 24. Draco - dracocoa 25. Captain Karnage - jmf465 26. Shezzy - muforfun 27. Power Master - Bodine95 28. DavidSW - SecondWorld 29. DarkDestr0yer61 - DarkDestr0yer61 30. DreadFighter - NewerLuigi 31. DodgeDusk - DodgeDusk 32. Carmine Sword - sternski Links to the fights done so far Round 1 Aura Wolf vs DreadFighter Miss Kira vs IceSage General Horace vs Power Master Jedi vs Carmine Sword Radiance vs Draco DodgeDusk vs Dotty Shin vs Batter the Beast Comet vs Shezzy Jotaro Kujo vs Knight of Argentum Gorgar vs StardustRicon Zerker vs Water Mage Elieson vs NeedTheFriction Captain Karnage vs Knife N7 vs DarkDestr0yer Losers Bracket Round 1 Shin vs Power Master DodgeDusk vs DreadFighter NeedTheFriction vs DarkDestr0yer Round 2 General Horace vs Batter the Beast Aura Wolf vs Dotty IceSage vs Jotaro Kujo Radiance vs Knife N7 vs Elieson Zerker vs StardustRicon Tsunami Vs Jedi Comet vs Gemma Losers Bracket Round 2 General Horace vs DreadFighter Shin vs Dotty Jedi vs Draco Elieson vs Miss Kira Radiance vs Carmine Sword Jotaro Kujo vs NeedTheFriction StardustRicon vs Shezzy Gorgar vs Comet Round 3 IceSage vs Batter The Beast N7 vs Aura Wolf Gemma vs Knife Zerker vs Tsunami Losers Bracket Round 3 Shin vs Elieson Jedi vs StardustRicon Quarter Finals IceSage vs Zerker Losers Bracket Round 4 Tsunami vs Shin Jedi vs Aura Wolf Radiance Vs Batter The Beast DreadFighter vs Gemma Winners Finals IceSage vs Knife Losers Bracket Round 5 Aura Wolf vs DreadFighter Batter the Beast vs Radiance Losers Quarters Aura Wolf vs Zerker Losers Semis Zerker vs Tsunami Losers Finals IceSage vs Tsunami Grand Finals

Now I love Fates, the characters and supports that do shine really shine (P.S I wanted Kagero popularity art but you can't win them all ). The gameplay is pretty amazing, arguably the best the series has offered, the worldbuilding and stuff... yeah needs some work. But in my dream scenario lets forget that and go with what I hope to see if they go with a 3 game system again, overall I felt it worked pretty well, you had 3 differing takes on Maps (and every route had obviously exclusive maps, more so in Revelations) and characters, exclusive classes and such. I REALLY loved it overall and felt it was actually worth the money, and I say that as someone who usually looks for deals 80% of the time. One of my favorite historical (And when done fictionally as well), periods of time to study is the Chinese Three Kingdoms Era, which was a period of time starting around 220 AD, but the conflict that went to that point started around 180ish, with the Yellow Scarves/Turban rebellion, now why did I bring this up? Well if they wanted to do 3 games again, why not try three different perspectives (again), its a long shot, I don't know if they'll get the reception they need to improve on the lackluster writing (although I did really enjoy Birthrights story, maybe I'm just a sucker for simple things). Have a war that has 3 warring kingdoms or nations, trying to conquer each other, no right or wrong, just the leaders morals to go by and their methods like why do they want to rule this nation/region etc, the main character could be a hermit of sorts who's actually studied stuff their entire life/practiced some war stuff or something and then all 3 leaders one by one will visit him/her, hearing of their talents as opposed to say Robin or Corrin, their main importance would be more as an adviser/warrior for the leader they pick. The main focus in the 3 routes would be the ruler they selected to serve, with them chiming in of course, but they wouldn't be the core focus, they'd be our eyes basically. The scenario could also be like, the 3 all tell you stories of how they came to be the rulers of their respective kingdoms and their fight against warlords and the other 2 powerful factions, and from that, the world building starts, you see all 3, and your characters little rural province as well would play a little bit of a role starting off. This could be the first set of chapters, up to maybe chapter 10, so you can have a good bit of building, and from there have about 20 unique chapters per kingdom? I'm not a game designer though, I just have ideas.

As this game was confirmed to be released in the west on 6/24 I will be attempting to get the game on that day and stream the next day, which will be Saturday the 25th. While this is several months in advance, I figured I'd clue people into the possibility, as well as ask people who have played the Japanese version to please give me some general info I might need to know so this goes as smoothly as possible. Elieson has already volunteered to be a mod on this stream, if/when it gets off the ground and I will have to do several tests as the day approaches, thanks for any info/help in advance and I hope some of you will tune in.

Just a general goofy topic, during Awakenings conceptual stages, the team thought about maybe putting the team on Mars, now I dno about all of you, but I think the successes of Awakening and Fates would allow them to maybe toy with this idea as maybe a spinoff game? I was thinking like laser swords, and all the typical sci-fi fantasy fare, I got a huge nostalgic rush to the likes of the old school Phantasy Star games when I was thinking what FE in space would basically be like, maybe even stuff like how Gundam series work, with space colonies and the like, mecha, over the top sci-fi weapons, political struggles, the works. If anyone would like to bounce ideas around, it would be fun to come up with how it could work and stuff.

This Started as a Smash 4 Data thread, it has been turned into a general one. Smash 4 Data is in this Post Smash 64 Smash Bros Melee Smash Bros Brawl Smash 4 Series (With a playable character) Content, including Trophies, Music, etc No reason other than I'm absolutely bored, I always think of people talking about representation in Smash, so I've decided to catalog what things exactly have representation or not. I mean this in terms of things that effect the game, such as stages, characters, items and Assist Trophies perhaps, Pokemon gets a huge boost from Pokeballs as is, but I feel like counting it as a single thing, or else it would be a no contest. Stages will also be both the 3DS and Wii U set totals. Music and Trophies may come later, but holy crap I am not doing that right now. Bold Green Numbers mean the highest count at a quick glance. My numbers may be slightly off and if they are I apologize. Characters Per Franchise Stages Both Wii U and 3DS Items - This is counting character created items Assist Trophies Totals for now Had to do a minor edit because I realized I forgot to count Robin's tome and Levin Sword as items, i'll probably edit in Mii costumes later as well. Edit #2 somehow forgot Zelda on the totals, which is now fixed.

Now whats this you may ask? Well its a small thing for data, because I'm a nerd and like statistics, what I'm going to do is post up the smash characters from 64, first you will vote on who you main or used most in the game. Then you will also put who you use the least/dislike the most. Posts describing your choices would be cool too, but optional, I'll get to my own sometime. After awhile of N64's poll being up, we'll switch to Melee for a bit, then we will switch to Brawl, then Smash 4 Smash 64 Most Commonly Mained N64 character on SF: Captain Falcon (9) 2nd Most Commonly: Link (6) Least Mained: a 5 way tie of Fox, Samus, Jigglypuff, Ness and Luigi (1) Least Used/Most Disliked: Jigglypuff (8)

Now I have had an idea, I may actually have the time for in a few weeks. You know how in FE7 when you make your tactician and you pick your birth month it decides your affinity? Well my affinity is , so the rules of the playthrough(s) will be as such. I can ONLY use characters of the wind affinity in the game I play along with the MAIN Lord (such as if I played Sacred Stones I could use Eirika but if I went on Eprhaims route I could no longer use her since she isn't the MAIN lord anymore) For a quick guide as to what WIND characters are in the 3 GBA games. I shall give you the lists. FE6: Bors, Ellen, Shanna, Sue, Treck, Oujay, Garret, Hugh FE7: Lyn, Sain, Wil, Matthew, Priscilla, Fiora, Hawkeye FE8: Joshua, Forde, Tana, Saleh, Myrrh I'm kinda leaning fe8 but thats due to possible hilarity of small amounts of units.

So after an interview http://serenesforest.net/fire-emblem-if/4gamer-interview/this one, in particular, I felt like sharing my overall feelings on how this game will proceed. There are 3 paths to cover so that's quite a bit of ground. First off we have Hoshido, the noble, Japanese inspired country who is proclaimed as peace-loving. If you don't mind for a moment, I'm just gonna go fanboy for a moment, Hoshido's designs are incredibly slick and awesome. I love Asian designs and culture to begin with, Kozaki has made some awesome designs for this side. *Ahem* these people are Kamui's family, and that's as much obligation to them as we get, Hoshido's route has been confirmed as The easiest of the three routes. Despite this I have a feeling it'll give people a good run on Hard and Lunatic/Lunatic+ IS did Awakenings gameplay well, complaints aside the maps were a bit simplistic, mostly being rout and defeat boss. Hoshido looks to continue this style, however with Awakening behind them, I think IS can design some more interesting maps around the 2 concepts. I remain hopeful, Hoshido also has the world map ala Gaiden, Sacred Stones and Awakening. Which will help newer players and those who just want to have fun grind up. The story of this route, I will assume, is that Kamui chooses his/her family over their Nohr "family", which will greatly sadden them, the plot will most likely be pretty simple, it being, Nohr's emperor has gone mad with power and wishes to take Hoshido, and you aren't about to let that happen, although this would be INCREDIBLY simple, Tellius was simple and yet done incredibly well in PoR, even with moral greyness, Hoshido will probably have some hidden secrets such as, why was Kamui in Nohr? The secrets of his/her dragon blood, and tragic battles with his/her old Nohr comrades. Although the monsters seen in the trailer indicate there may be another side to this entire conflict, either that or Hoshido OR Nohr has a very dark secret. Secondly we have Nohr, the glory seeking, European looking country. The designs are.. hit and miss to me (Camilla i'm looking at you, try a little less hard with the fanservice guys.. like I've seen DoA girl designs look more sensible). Marx, Blarth and co do look pretty rocking though. These people are who Kamui grew up with, and likely is familiar with their customs and ways (duh). Nohrs route has been confirmed as the hardest of the three routes. This is most likely due to IS wishing to appeal more to their veteran fanbase outside of fanservice in Awakening this time around, we have various objectives and a more complicated story in this route. I think we can expect much more stage variety and hazards such as possibly the old Fog of War mechanic making a return. Hopefully the difficulty will be as good as New Mystery, Sword of Seals and Thracia. We have no world map, and this may be intimidating for the ones coming off of Awakening, although I think casual mode is returning for all routes. There is also the situation of "paralogues", I have the personal feeling that Nohr will have the older style method of gaining Gaidens, such as "win in such in such amount of turns" etc, while Hoshido will have paralogues like Awakening, open to whenever you can access them. The story (I hope to see anyways), is Kamui in this route leading a small coup in Garons forces as he/she fights Hoshido convincingly enough to not have the Emperor be suspicious of him/her, later a civil war as Kamui discovers the truth about him/herself, and their dragonic heritage, Hoshido will be damaged by this conflict but not outright destroyed as Kamui tries to change Nohr for the "better", although he/she may have to pull some drastic moves.. Hoshido may pull some itself.. In the middle of this conflict we have Aqua a mysterious dancer, is she who allows Kamui to find out about his/her Hoshido people? Does she have some mysterious power? We still are unsure, however I have a huge feeling she is key to the plot of ANY of the three routes. And then we have route 3, ??? as of now, all we know is It's the middle of the road. Difficulty wise. It will likely fuse parts of both Hoshido and Nohr's route. Likely this is a 3rd route where Kamui will either unite the causes of his two families against the mysterious Nosferatu or some unknown other objective. Likely we shall get a mix of Hoshido and Nohr characters and maybe some 3rd route only characters. I have a feeling Aqua will play her biggest role in this route, and be overall the "happy" ending, however I am honestly not sure, it could be the most tragic for all I know. How the mixture of routes will apply to gameplay I have no clue, more unique objectives with a map? Among other things. So yeah thats my personal feelings/hopes on the matter.

I was chatting with some fellow FE players about how effective lowmanning is in an FE, how balance typically (usually) is skewed, how would people react if there was a FE with a small elite force who can all do different tasks, with a lord who is the only (weaker) unit, but had the potential of surpassing them all? I was merely curious what people thought about an FE with 8-10ish units basically.

For quite a number of years I've had a video game concept in my mind for the longest time. Name pending. The concept of this game, is that there is a kingdom known as Chrisagrim. It's thrived since its founding through many toils and kings, its a more island nation, however said Island is quite huge. Anyways, the current King reports to his Ranger divison captain (our protagonist) Zevain, a 28ish year old indivdual, with red hair and yellowish eyes who wields a bladed bow, that his daughter the princess, heir to the throne has been kidnapped (CLICHE BUT WAIT). Zevain gathers allies to make the attempt to save the princess, among them is Dio a squire who looks up to Zevain, who he sees as a younger brother. Clara, one of the kings personal guard and spies, Aeneas a small town blacksmith who is an elder member of the kingdom once retired, owes the king a debt. A small contengent of the army follows beside them. This is the basic start of the story, as it goes along they meet some more important characters, such as Delilah, the Dark Swan, once regarded as a witch, who is an able tactician that joins Zevain after trials in the swamp. Gregorovich a mercenary looking to put his axe to better use, Raynor the Wild, a fearsome warrior who puts honor and bravery above everything, and many more. The true plot begins when the Princess is actually rescued. Which our heroes find too late is a succession scheme. In the dead of night the King is slain and Zevain is blamed for it, unable to deny the aliogations, Zevain leaves in the face of former friends, depending on if he swayed the others to be loyal to him in the Princess quest, he may find them again as allies in his revolution to bring the kingdom back to how he feels it should be. The now Queen, has questionable methods, however the people are absolutely torn. The Kingdom was in a sadder state then many realized and the newer policies seem to be helping in some ways, but the kingdom due to this sudden assassination is now torn assunder, from the plot of this rebellious princess and her outside help Many characters will live and die by the blade, choices determine story paths, how Zevain, Dio and later Zevain's Daughter as well influence the army they build and how they will try to make Chrisagrim once they (if they) succeed in taking the kingdom. The gameplay I've never been sure about, either something akin to Ogre Battle or that of a mixture of action game with RPG. It's a hard choice and I felt, even with this small overview (I have a whole journal filled with story and character ideas/plotlines etc). I'd see what you all think