FE4 Noobs unite...

[Seph]

Not in the mood for a long reply.

Arthur doesn't always have to use Holsety to rule. In the arena, for instance, he rapes without it.

So can nearly every other child.

I prefer Levin!Fury because it helps a lot more against late game enemies.. even Alvis. Call me crazy, but I used Sety as my main guy to kill Alvis. Sety is your Ishtar slayer, Dark Warlords slayer, Arione slayer, and so on. He can kill all of the toughest enemies easily, which can make your life easier in the long run. Levin!Sety is easily the strongest character you get in FE4 (barring Julia). No other character can do that. Shanan will get raped by magic attacks, and so will Faval and others. Sety can kill everything. After you get him, he will help you through tough times. Arthur can't boast that because of his terrible, terrible caps. He can't even kill Ishtar that well.

And don't forget, Aless is excellent for the Freege thunder users and the dark mages and the Mage sisters after you recruit him. He'll need more exp than Arthur, right?

And besides, you get him for more than half of the second generation. You get him for a fourth of 8, and all of 9, 10, 11,

Noish!Sety more useful? Nonsense. That's like saying Ardan!Arthur is more useful.

Edited December 15, 2008 by Julius

[Fia]

Call me crazy, but I used Sety as my main guy to kill Alvis.

At least you are not as crazy as to kill Ishtar with a Fire Tome like I did.

I used Azel!Arthur in my early playthroughs, to take on those 3 mage sisters and Ishtar, alone with a Fire Tome.

Arthur can't boast that because of his terrible, terrible caps. He can't even kill Ishtar that well.

I beg to differ. Arthur don't have any problem on finishing off Ishtar.

Maybe not as smooth as Sety's work, but he certainly has no problem to do it.

Holsety Arthur + Claude/Noish!Sety is more useful than Azel!Arthur + Levin!Sety.

I would believe if you said Levin!Arthur and Claude!Arthur are better than Azel!Arthur and Levin!Sety. But Noish!Sety? =/

Azel!Arthur is better than him.

Edited December 15, 2008 by Tiltyu

[Seph]

Levin!Sety is better than Levin!Arthur, I don't mind debating this on the specific board.

The lack of Pursuit really hurts. He can't do much against late game enemies. At first, it's excellent, but later on the lack of power seems disturbing.

Edited December 15, 2008 by Julius

[Fia]

Levin!Sety is better than Levin!Arthur, I don't mind debating this on the specific board.

The lack of Pursuit really hurts. He can't do much against late game enemies.

Huh? Did I say I disagree with your statment?

I do found Levin!Sety as more powerful than Levin!Arthur. =/

Edited December 15, 2008 by Tiltyu

[Seph]

I know, I just felt like saying it.

At least you are not as crazy as to kill Ishtar with a Fire Tome like I did.

Killing Alvis with Aless using an Iron Sword is in order.

[Fia]

I know, I just felt like saying it.

That's really unnecessary. <_<

Killing Alvis with Aless using an Iron Sword is in order.

This will take forever! At least Arthur has Wrath and Ishtar doesn't have Awareness! >_<

[Mekkah]

So can nearly every other child.

That's irrelevant for this "debate".

I prefer Levin!Fury because it helps a lot more against late game enemies.. even Alvis. Call me crazy, but I used Sety as my main guy to kill Alvis.

It'll still be doing Celice and Aless doing the vast majority of the work against Alvis, and they can do it well enough.

Sety is your Ishtar slayer, Dark Warlords slayer, Arione slayer, and so on.

Arthur can do all of that as well.

Sety can kill everything. After you get him, he will help you through tough times. Arthur can't boast that because of his terrible, terrible caps. He can't even kill Ishtar that well.

Levin!Sety is better than Levin!Arthur, I don't mind debating this on the specific board.

That wasn't my point. Here, read it again.

Holsety Arthur + Claude/Noish!Sety is more useful than Azel!Arthur + Levin!Sety.

It's the combination of implications of the pairing.

We have Holsety Arthur, who is pwn, and we have Holsety Sety, who is wowpwn. Then we have, let's say, Azel!Arthur, who is okay, and we have Claude!Sety or Noish!Sety or what have you, who is great. lolpwn > pwn >> great >>> okay. I'd rather have pwn + great than lolpwn + okay. Especially since pwn/okay is around for longer, and thus has more magnitude than lolpwn/great.

Shanan will get raped by magic attacks, and so will Faval and others.

And Arthur won't.

Sety can kill everything. After you get him, he will help you through tough times. Arthur can't boast that because of his terrible, terrible caps. He can't even kill Ishtar that well.

He only has like 8 less Spd/16 less Avo at cap, but their Avo is still in the largely overkill range. They both rape absolutely everything. And yes, Arthur does kill Ishtar very well. A L15 Arthur has 48 HP/8 Res, 45 Atk/36 AS/30% crt with Holsety. That's a ~70% chance to kill anything with either Continue or a critical already. Or he can simply get into Wrath HP, and then he has a guaranteed critical. Either way works.

And don't forget, Aless is excellent for the Freege thunder users and the dark mages and the Mage sisters after you recruit him. He'll need more exp than Arthur, right?

There's no Dark Mages anymore for Aless until Sety has already arrived, so I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, Aless can kill Freege people...but Sety can't, since Freege is dead before he joins.

And besides, you get him for more than half of the second generation. You get him for a fourth of 8, and all of 9, 10, 11,

And you get Arthur for over half of 6, then 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11. Arthur has more. Win? Arthur.

Noish!Sety more useful? Nonsense. That's like saying Ardan!Arthur is more useful.

Noish!Sety still has 17 base Mag, only 6 less than Claude!Sety. That's still 31 base Atk with Lightning/Elwind, enough to kill most generics in two hits (and he has Pursuit, so he'll get that). Against anything he falls short against, he still has Continue, Charge AND Berserk to fall back on. And this way, Fee has better offense as well.

So, my point in summary:

Levin should be paired with Tiltyu. This means you get to use Holsety for all of 2nd gen, rather than only the latter half, and early on it's more needed since later on you have many more Holy weapon juggernauts anyway (like Tyrfing), while early on you are still in trouble against people like Ishtor (there's literally no one else around who can own Ishtor this badly, except maybe Shannan).

It improves Arthur more than it improves Sety compared to other pairings, since Sety basically goes from raping everything to raping everything really hard, while Arthur goes from having good offense and bad durability to amazing offense and amazing durability.

It also allows you to gear your Fury pairing more towards Fee, who is also around for much longer than Sety, and needs all the help she can get.

Oh, and it also gives you a mounted Holsety user, rather than one with 6 mov. Allows him to keep up with Celice, Aless and Leaf and the likes instead of lagging behind.

Edited December 15, 2008 by Mekkah

[Fia]

And you get Arthur for over half of 6, then 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11. Arthur has more. Win? Arthur.

Just going to tell you one thing. All the bosses before Arion are jokes. Seriously.

Including Chapter 8!Ishtar. You don't need to use Holsety.

That's exactly one of my main reasons why Holsety is better in Sety's hand. The hard part of the second generation is only start on Chapter 9, since both of Arthur and Sety are already available at that point, won't it be better if the cheap Holsety go to a superior's hands?

[Mekkah]

How are they any less jokes than the bosses after you get Sety?

"well dey be stronger look"

Yes, but you also have more means available to kill them, and the difference between Levin!Arthur and Levin!Sety against them isn't that high.

Looking at these "threatening" bosses you face after recruiting Sety:

Trabant - If Arthur doesn't kill him, then Faval, any magic user or Leaf can finish the job. Noob didn't bring Gungir.

Arion - You can seize Thracia without fighting him. Or deal with him the same way as with Trabant, except somewhat more difficult, but you also get to use Altenna now.

Ishtar II/Julius I - Arthur rapes the former, and so does Aless, and Shannan does if he triggers a skill, or anyone with a high crit sword can beat her actually due to her low Def. Sety isn't going to help you beating Julius. You can also opt to let someone die to either, then resurrect (another point for doing Claude/Fury rather than Levin/Fury).

Alvis - Neither are of much help against him.

Burian - Manages to be weak to all three Holy Swords as well as Holsety. Failure.

Scorpio - Not exactly threatening. Where's your 1-range, boy?

Hilda - Doesn't even have a Holy Weapon.

Arion II - Altenna turns him into a NPC.

Ishtar III - Arthur wins most of the time, but even if he doesn't, Celice or Aless can finish him off.

Peg Trio - They're annoying, but again, very manageable with Arthur!Sety or Shannan.

Manfroy - He's a joke.

Dark Warlords - We've got Julia now.

Julius - Neither can help against him, and Julia crushes him.

The only significant advantage Lolsety has over Holsety Arthur is maybe the Peg Trio and Arion I. Now, compare that to what Arthur can face for you before Sety joins.

- Dark Mages, only Julia can take more than one at a time otherwise.

- Liza, not _that_ much of a threat but she does kill everyone you have in 2 hits with Elthunder and can't really be 2HKOed by anyone you have.

- Ishtor, 2HKOs everyone with either spell, and can always trigger Continue even with Bolting. Plus he has ballista friends.

Now Aless joins, but unless you let Shannan walk over from the shrine, you only have his 1-range self to take care of the next few enemies.

- Mage Trio comes at you for some fun, and again, everyone not named Julia, Aless or Shannan dies in 2 hits, and while the latter two can one round, the former can't, and the latter two don't have 1~2 range. Arthur does one-round (either Wrath or one of his skills), and has 1~2 range.

- Blume cannot be beaten by anyone but Aless or Arthur, pretty much, and Aless has shaky hitrate and gets hit every single time.

Ch8

- Ishtar comes at you for the first time, and unless you feel like gambling with Faval's shaky hitrate, or Shannan's skill activation, Arthur is 100% your best bet. Aless can only kill her with one of his skills activating, and if he doesn't kill her, she triggers Ambush on whatever attacks her, and maybe Continue too.

- Mage Trio comes to be a faggot again.

- Blume is a faggot with Bolting.

[Seph]

I've been very busy so it took me a long time to answer.

That's irrelevant for this "debate".

How so? That makes him less special, since many children can do it, so it's not an uncommon feature.

And by that, his value decreases. That's why it's relevant - it has roots within value.

And then, value determines how a pairing is better or not, don't you agree? When a character has something useful that is unique - that makes him more valuable. If not, the value decreases. It's like jewelery. When there is too much gold, the value decreases.

It'll still be doing Celice and Aless doing the vast majority of the work against Alvis, and they can do it well enough.

Sety can help them.

Arthur can't, thanks to the lack of Pursuit and crappy caps. Also, Arthur doesn't have staves. Which hurts him.

Arthur can do all of that as well.

Hah! Oh really? Thanks to the crappy caps of Mage Knight, Arthur will have a much harder time slaying the Dark Warlords and Arione. He will definitely need assistance. I've soloed all the Dark Warlords with Sety, I don't think Arthur can ever in his life do that without the rings, which is favoritism and unneeded.

Holsety Arthur + Claude/Noish!Sety is more useful than Azel!Arthur + Levin!Sety.

I was assuming that we were merely talking about Levin!Sety and Levin!Arthur in general.. but let's talk Azel!Arthur then. Let me prove this wrong in the next part.

It's the combination of implications of the pairing.

We have Holsety Arthur, who is pwn, and we have Holsety Sety, who is wowpwn. Then we have, let's say, Azel!Arthur, who is okay, and we have Claude!Sety or Noish!Sety or what have you, who is great. lolpwn > pwn >> great >>> okay. I'd rather have pwn + great than lolpwn + okay. Especially since pwn/okay is around for longer, and thus has more magnitude than lolpwn/great.

I believe the pairings here are Levin!Tiltyu and Claude!Fury against Levin!Fury and Azel!Tiltyu.

Also, Azel!Arthur is not just okay. He's not as bad as some of the okay units you get. I'd rather great since he can easily become lovers with Fee and since he's not exactly pwn. I've used him before, so I've some experience with him. Then again this is a matter of personal opinion. Like you said, "I'd rather".

We have pwn (Levin!Arthur) + great (Claude!Sety) and lolpwn (Levin!Sety) + great (Azel!Arthur). The answer is obvious. While I admit you made a big mistake in not adding more options (say maybe lolgreat) even then thanks to lolpwn Levin!Sety wins. Now that this part is taken care of, I'll talk about the usefulness of Levin!Sety and Levin!Arthur overall.

Also, you are talking theoretically. Claude!Sety or Noish!Sety isn't even there yet, and if you let me talk theoretically as well, Lex is the best husband for Tiltyu if you use Levin for something else. The difference will dramatically decrease since both pairings will kill everything and Tinny is better with Lex. This part isn't needed, but just wanted to mention it.

And Arthur won't.

I meant that Arthur can't kill the magic users which rape Shanan and so on as well as Sety. That puts him at a disadvantage.

Thanks for reminding me. 12 average Res at 30. See?

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=ar...vin&game=4x

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=shanan&game=4

Thanks to the higher speed and not too large Res difference, there will not be a huge difference in battling mages.

He only has like 8 less Spd/16 less Avo at cap, but their Avo is still in the largely overkill range. They both rape absolutely everything. And yes, Arthur does kill Ishtar very well. A L15 Arthur has 48 HP/8 Res, 45 Atk/36 AS/30% crt with Holsety. That's a ~70% chance to kill anything with either Continue or a critical already. Or he can simply get into Wrath HP, and then he has a guaranteed critical. Either way works.

Arthur has 7 res... Aless has around 15.

I said "that well". That means that he's not as good at killing Ishtar as Sety, no matter how good he is. And even then, at Chapter 8, Ishtar will leave after a few turns so that part isn't anywhere near as important.

If you want exp so much, might as well let Aless get it since he will be underleveled.

Not the case in other chapters. Who can defeat Ishtar better, Arthur or Sety? Sety of course. Therefore, he will be more useful. Arthur isn't even that surefire against Ishtar thanks to the lack of Pursuit. Ishtar has cool speed thanks to +10 from Thorhammer and she will have a less chance of missing thanks to Arthur's gay caps and +20 skill from Thorhammer. And coupled with Arthur's low Res, he'll get hurt a lot and he may need help from someone else.

There's no Dark Mages anymore for Aless until Sety has already arrived, so I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, Aless can kill Freege people...but Sety can't, since Freege is dead before he joins.

Funny how that time is very little. It's a single chapter. There are MANY, MANY dark mages in this game.

No, I'm not saying that Sety can kill Freege people. I'm saying that you already have a Freege killer. And he can do it really well, and Shanan is there too.

That's why Sety is so good, he can battle better than your other characters. Arthur can't.

And you get Arthur for over half of 6, then 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11. Arthur has more. Win? Arthur.

You completely missed my point. We should be ranking the time of the usefulness of characters. I was just showing that you don't miss Sety for very much.

Levin!Arthur is more useful in a half of 6, 7 and most of 8. Levin!Sety is more useful in a little of 8, 9, 10, 11. Because of staves and better caps.

So yeah, Sety takes the usefulness part since he's more useful in for a longer amount of time.

Noish!Sety still has 17 base Mag, only 6 less than Claude!Sety. That's still 31 base Atk with Lightning/Elwind, enough to kill most generics in two hits (and he has Pursuit, so he'll get that). Against anything he falls short against, he still has Continue, Charge AND Berserk to fall back on. And this way, Fee has better offense as well.

Only 6?! That's a lot. Not to mention Noish!Sety only grows magic once, Claude!Sety will get 29 magic at level 30. And also, he's not a good staff user. Anyway, Fury has better options, so I don't know why you're mentioning that. At the beginning, Sety has 21 - 5 = 16 AS, so good luck. Also, I just discussed this here:

We have pwn (Levin!Arthur) + great (Claude!Sety) and lolpwn (Levin!Sety) + great (Azel!Arthur). The answer is obvious.

Levin should be paired with Tiltyu. This means you get to use Holsety for all of 2nd gen, rather than only the latter half, and early on it's more needed since later on you have many more Holy weapon juggernauts anyway (like Tyrfing), while early on you are still in trouble against people like Ishtor (there's literally no one else around who can own Ishtor this badly, except maybe Shannan).

As you said, Shanan. He can take Arthur's role before Sety comes in. Albeit not as well, but well nonetheless. No one can take Sety's role, that's what is so good about him. He's just that good.

It improves Arthur more than it improves Sety compared to other pairings, since Sety basically goes from raping everything to raping everything really hard, while Arthur goes from having good offense and bad durability to amazing offense and amazing durability.

What's important is more usefulness. And if Lex is used, then the improvement decreases greatly.

It also allows you to gear your Fury pairing more towards Fee, who is also around for much longer than Sety, and needs all the help she can get.

May be just my opinion, but Sety raping everything really hard is more useful than that.

Oh, and it also gives you a mounted Holsety user, rather than one with 6 mov. Allows him to keep up with Celice, Aless and Leaf and the likes instead of lagging behind.

With crappy caps and lack of staves.

How are they any less jokes than the bosses after you get Sety?

You may have tough times with those bosses. Sety will immediately get rid of those times, with ease, since Arthur is much weaker. Sety has Pursuit, staves and higher caps.

What is needed is overall usefulness, not just killing the bosses. I explained this earlier.

I'll be doing what you did now.

- Dark Mages, only Julia can take more than one at a time otherwise.

Julia, but this is the only place where I'd agree.

- Liza, not _that_ much of a threat but she does kill everyone you have in 2 hits with Elthunder and can't really be 2HKOed by anyone you have.

Shanan.

- Ishtor, 2HKOs everyone with either spell, and can always trigger Continue even with Bolting. Plus he has ballista friends.

Now Aless joins, but unless you let Shannan walk over from the shrine, you only have his 1-range self to take care of the next few enemies.

Aless and Shanan. Shanan starts with 43 speed. Obviously you want to let him walk over from the shrine..

- Mage Trio comes at you for some fun, and again, everyone not named Julia, Aless or Shannan dies in 2 hits, and while the latter two can one round, the former can't, and the latter two don't have 1~2 range. Arthur does one-round (either Wrath or one of his skills), and has 1~2 range.

Julia, Aless and Shanan. You said it yourself, they're jokes even without Arthur. At least for me.

- Blume cannot be beaten by anyone but Aless or Arthur, pretty much, and Aless has shaky hitrate and gets hit every single time.

Aless + Shanan.

- Ishtar comes at you for the first time, and unless you feel like gambling with Faval's shaky hitrate, or Shannan's skill activation, Arthur is 100% your best bet. Aless can only kill her with one of his skills activating, and if he doesn't kill her, she triggers Ambush on whatever attacks her, and maybe Continue too.

Not a problem, she leaves after a few turns.

- Mage Trio comes to be a faggot again.

Aless, Shanan, Julia.

- Blume is a faggot with Bolting.

Shanan has nice dodge.

Edited December 15, 2008 by Julius

[Mekkah]

How so? That makes him less special, since many children can do it, so it's not an uncommon feature.

And by that, his value decreases. That's why it's relevant - it has roots within value.

And then, value determines how a pairing is better or not, don't you agree? When a character has something useful that is unique - that makes him more valuable. If not, the value decreases. It's like jewelery. When there is too much gold, the value decreases.

This affects Sety much more than Arthur. His only competition for being wtfpwn during 7 and 8 is Shannan and Aless, and even those have trouble keeping up at some points I will adress later. During Ch6, he's the best period. Who does Sety have to cop with during his peak? Well, first Leaf promotes and becomes rape, as well as nearly everyone else around him, and then Altenna joins, and Celice gets Tyrfing, and Julia gets Narga in the endgame, all the while people like Aless and Shannan are as around as ever.

Sety can help them.

By doing what? 15 damage to his 80 HP everytime he pierces through WTD + leadership + throne + Great Shield, while getting 2HKOed at huge hit rates? Very helpful there, Sety.

Arthur's "crappy caps" still put out almost as much damage (like 13) against Alvis should he be fighting him for some reason, so whatever.

Also, Arthur doesn't have staves. Which hurts him.

Sety didn't gain staves through having Levin as his dad. He has that if he has Claude or whoever too. My point is that Levin should be paired with Tiltyu, not that Sety is better.

Hah! Oh really? Thanks to the crappy caps of Mage Knight, Arthur will have a much harder time slaying the Dark Warlords and Arione. He will definitely need assistance. I've soloed all the Dark Warlords with Sety, I don't think Arthur can ever in his life do that without the rings, which is favoritism and unneeded.

Thanks for the statistical evidence there instead of relying on personal experience and all?

L30 Arthur has 53-54 atk, 37 AS, 57% Continue, 32% crt (100% with Wrath). Roughly 71% chance of triggering either skill.

Let's just assume Sety kills everything. So only 29% of the time when Arthur is out of Wrath health, he is actually having an offense lead.

And then there's the possibility of giving Arthur the Pursuit Ring so he just one-rounds everything as well.

It's like arguing that one FE10 Laguz Royal is stronger than another or something.

I was assuming that we were merely talking about Levin!Sety and Levin!Arthur in general.. but let's talk Azel!Arthur then. Let me prove this wrong in the next part.

No, that's pointless. Levin!Sety is better than Levin!Arthur by himself when they are both around, but not by a huge enough amount to compensate for Holsety for almost three full chapters plus other pairing consequences.

I believe the pairings here are Levin!Tiltyu and Claude!Fury against Levin!Fury and Azel!Tiltyu.

Or Noish!Fury as an alternative.

Also, Azel!Arthur is not just okay. He's not as bad as some of the okay units you get. I'd rather great since he can easily become lovers with Fee and since he's not exactly pwn. I've used him before, so I've some experience with him. Then again this is a matter of personal opinion. Like you said, "I'd rather".

That doesn't even make sense, and you made no effort to prove it at all.

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=ar...zel&game=4x

30 HP/2 Def is his weak point. Low durability, good offense, so okay overall. Not bad, not good.

We have pwn (Levin!Arthur) + great (Claude!Sety) and lolpwn (Levin!Sety) + great (Azel!Arthur). The answer is obvious.

For Ch6, we have pwn (Levin!Arthur) vs okay (Azel!Arthur).

For Ch7, we have pwn (Levin!Arthur) vs okay (Azel!Arthur).

For most of Ch8, we have pwn (Levin!Arthur) vs okay (Azel!Arthur).

Then, we also have a considerably better Fee for all game long, versus a slightly worse Tinny for only end of Ch7 till end.

Then at the end of 8, we get lolpwn vs pwn for a while, but that gap is obviously much smaller. They're both killing 99% of everything, and the few bosses Arthur doesn't kill always he still kills often due to skillz/Wrath.

No mistakes involved.

Also, you are talking theoretically. Claude!Sety or Noish!Sety isn't even there yet, and if you let me talk theoretically as well, Lex is the best husband for Tiltyu if you use Levin for something else. The difference will dramatically decrease since both pairings will kill everything and Tinny is better with Lex. This part isn't needed, but just wanted to mention it.

I don't even get what you're saying since it makes no sense whatsoever. Lex x Tiltyu is a terrible pairing. A Wrath'd hit does as much as two Pursuit'd hits, maybe slightly more due to it only having to go through Res once, but then also much less due to the highly lowered Mag stat. So we're going to have them do less damage than they normally could, and only when they're on half HP, so unless they OHKO everything they face they're basically guaranteed to die, while also depriving two other kids of Elite.

I meant that Arthur can't kill the magic users which rape Shanan and so on as well as Sety. That puts him at a disadvantage.

Thanks for reminding me. 12 average Res at 30. See?

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=ar...vin&game=4x

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=shanan&game=4

Thanks to the higher speed and not too large Res difference, there will not be a huge difference in battling mages.

Shannan isn't raped by magic users. If he is, it's because he doesn't have 1~2 range, which Arthur does have. They both dodge like every mage attack.

Arthur has 7 res... Aless has around 15.

Doesn't matter. This part was about vs Ishtar, and she kills both of them in two hits.

I said "that well". That means that he's not as good at killing Ishtar as Sety, no matter how good he is. And even then, at Chapter 8, Ishtar will leave after a few turns so that part isn't anywhere near as important.

He's better off against her than every single other unit you have at that point. That makes him a God tier in that particular context, and by a huge amount. It's like saying Titania doesn't kill this earlygame boss "that well" because she can't one round it, when people like Ike and Boyd are even further from killing it.

Ishtar meets up with you unless you're going to stall her back and forth with Fee or something. That's not viable for debate, since it kills time and/or your tactics rank.

If you want exp so much, might as well let Aless get it since he will be underleveled.

Where did I say "I want EXP so much!!?". Anyway, saying that is like saying Seth doesn't get credit for being wtfrape when the kills should go to Eirika or something. It's just another method of using Arthur.

Not the case in other chapters. Who can defeat Ishtar better, Arthur or Sety? Sety of course. Therefore, he will be more useful. Arthur isn't even that surefire against Ishtar thanks to the lack of Pursuit. Ishtar has cool speed thanks to +10 from Thorhammer and she will have a less chance of missing thanks to Arthur's gay caps and +20 skill from Thorhammer. And coupled with Arthur's low Res, he'll get hurt a lot and he may need help from someone else.

Yes, Sety is more useful later on. I already established that. As I said, that isn't my point. The point is, is Sety's like 21% chance to do better against the 1% of enemies you face enough to make up for Arthur's much much bigger availability? Especially when Arthur can just take Thor Hammer, and then OHKO Ishtar with Wrath?

"but ishtar be continue and arthur ded!!!"

Then Sety dies as well, since both get 2HKOed, and he only has like 16 more avo, which is nowhere near reliable.

Funny how that time is very little. It's a single chapter. There are MANY, MANY dark mages in this game.

There's only "many" in one short part of Ch10, and then a few extremely weak bosses in Epilogue and some singled out ones on cliffs Arthur reaches sooner than Sety thanks to his movement (if Sety goes for them, he can't ever catch up to the main group again, lol6mov).

No, I'm not saying that Sety can kill Freege people. I'm saying that you already have a Freege killer. And he can do it really well, and Shanan is there too.

I already have [anything] killers after Sety joins too. Quite a lot more than I have Freege killers.

That's why Sety is so good, he can battle better than your other characters. Arthur can't.

Arthur is better than everyone until Aless joins, so that's 2 chapters already, and then he shares his throne with only 1-2 other units. Then Sety joins and he gets to be up there for the rest, but competes with Faval, Celice, Aless, Shannan AND Altenna, plus everyone promotes, etc. The gap between Arthur and the other units is overall larger during his prime than the one between Sety and the team during his.

You completely missed my point. We should be ranking the time of the usefulness of characters. I was just showing that you don't miss Sety for very much.

No, all you're trying to do is belittle Arthur's main selling point, availability.

Levin!Arthur is more useful in a half of 6, 7 and most of 8. Levin!Sety is more useful in a little of 8, 9, 10, 11. Because of staves and better caps.

Levin!Sety is more useful than Levin!Arthur in 8-11 by a small margin, measurable in percentages.

Levin!Arthur is more useful than Levin!Sety in 6-8 by a huuuuge margin, since Levin!Sety does not exist.

So yeah, Sety takes the usefulness part since he's more useful in for a longer amount of time.

lolno. Levin!Arthur is still extremely useful after Ch8, but Levin!Sety is not useful before Ch8.

Only 6?! That's a lot. Not to mention Noish!Sety only grows magic once, Claude!Sety will get 29 magic at level 30. And also, he's not a good staff user. Anyway, Fury has better options, so I don't know why you're mentioning that. At the beginning, Sety has 21 - 5 = 16 AS, so good luck. Also, I just discussed this here:

6 base Mag < 2 extra multi-hit skills that stack on the ones he already has.

16 AS is enough to double 99% of everything you face.

He is still a good staff user for anything except restoring HP monsters such as Leaf to full HP, and even if he wants to do that, he can use Recover.

Noish/Fury is a very, very good pairing.

It also allows you to gear your Fury pairing more towards Fee, who is also around for much longer than Sety, and needs all the help she can get.

May be just my opinion, but Sety raping everything really hard is more useful than that.

We're already taking that into account in all the text above. You bringing it up again just proves there's nothing you have to counter this singular point.

With crappy caps and lack of staves.

same as above.

What is needed is overall usefulness, not just killing the bosses. I explained this earlier.

If we're not looking at the bosses, then Arthur wins even more. They both rape everything's faces all game long, but Arthur exists for longer.

Ishtor

Shanan.

Liza

Aless and Shanan. Shanan starts with 43 speed. Obviously you want to let him walk over from the shrine..

Aless hasn't joined yet. Shannan walking over from the shrine takes too damn long for your tactics rating.

Mage Trio

Julia, Aless and Shanan. You said it yourself, they're jokes even without Arthur. At least for me.

Aless can't counter then on player phase, and Julia doesn't one-round. I didn't say they were jokes, I said they were gonna have fun with your team.

Blume I

Aless + Shanan.

Aless went to Darna to pick up Leen/Laylea. Shannan can get OHKOed by Thor Hammer iirc, and Blume can attack him at range on enemy phase.

Everything else you said is incomprehensible or a repeat of what was said already.

Again, to prove Levin should go with Fury instead of Tiltyu (which is the opposite of my point), you have to prove that

~20% higher chance to kill certain enemies during 8-11

is more useful than

- better Fee

- godly Arthur during 6, 7, 8 (giving him the best durability as opposed to some of the worst, and giving him wtfrape offense rather than good)

- an amazing bosskiller during 6, 7, 8

- having 9 movement on your Holsety user

[SupremeRulerOfJugdral]

OKAY, GUYS. this is getting outta hand. I have all the info I need, I won't be bothering. For those of you who still think they can give me a bit of advice, FORGET IT. I am canceling my subscription. here are my last words.

AideenXJamka. Midir will be seriously underleveled by the time I get Claude, I will revive him though.

I'm getting Johan. Johalva if I have to. Seems to me Johan's a lot harder to get.

And as far as I know, nothing, ABSOLUTELY nothing, for the last three to five posts, is wholly relevent with my very first post.

This will still be a very active debate post, if you guys are up to it.

[Mekkah]

sorry, got carried away there (though it was technically about which pairing you should use :P )

[Chalis]

Azn, here's the final advice I'll give you, and you'll want to hear it:

Don't revive Midir if you don't plan to use him. He's the best candidate to father Lester especially with Hero Bow, but if you're not going to bother with him at all, don't waste the Valkyrie on him. IIRC, his death already effected your survival rating, he won't be any use since he's under-leveled and you'll waste Claude's money by trying to fix the damn thing.

The only reason people actually use Midir is to couple him with Edin.

Oh, and tell me how your Nodion/Dozel children came out<3

-Debating

Alright, so all I've read is Arthur is pwn, Sety is lolpwn, Sety > Arthur.

Sety always beats Arthur, guys. :(

And I will respectfully say now, Ishtar (I) is loleasy to kill. Azel!Arthur easily OHKO's her on enemy's turn thanks to wrath; Arthur is always useful.

He was never meant to be the god child Sety is, but he was meant to be useful.

Alright, judging both pairings in the long run here:

Pursuit is always under surveillance. Arthur needs to rely on that Continue of his constantly, which is a pain if you're into over killing an entire fleet with a single unit (it is fun, do not deny it.)

Levin!Sety can murder everything in sight epilogue, enemy phase. What can Levin!Arthur do? Pray he isn't hit too many times.

While 16 AVO doesn't seem all that much apart, when dealing with FE4, the mother of all games wanting to screw you over (the granddaddy award goes to FE5) and when Holsety users are so full of epic avoid, that small amount of avoid difference will make a difference.

Lastly, I'm not saying Levin!Arthur is shit versus Levin!Sety. This was all originally for pairings for a first timer. Levin!Sety is a much safer route than Levin!Arthur. Why? None of the enemies ever bother to attack Arthur in the first place if he's the Holsety wielder!! He'll hardly get any experience not counting the arena because enemies would rather ignore him and wait for you to attack them (tactician rank dropping) and everyone else near Arthur is taking the kills.

Levin!Sety still beats Levin!Arthur even if this wasn't about first time pairings to use, and which is more useful. Earlier bosses (the ones where Arthur is so highly regarded being the Holsety wielder and all) are absolute jokes, including the Freeges. It's the latter bosses that after Sety joins that you should be worried about. Sure, Arthur can 2OHKO for sure anything and anyone not named Alvis and Yurius, but Sety can do the same, much faster thanks to sage caps, but just OHKOing guaranteed. He kills everything in sight in epilogue, (especially, not limited to, the following:) the trio sisters, Ishtar the third, and all of the twelve dark warlords swiftly and just. He can do the same for Arion and his massive army in chapter nine (but I leave that to Delmudd now >0>; )

[The following is bias]

The lulz, Levin!Arthur is for those who want to haxx throughout all of the second generation with doing little to no effort in raising other units. I guarantee almost half of your army is either under leveled or obsolete because you remembered to stop bothering if none of the other guys are even coming close. This happened after Scorpio died on my last play-through. Everyone had no further use; they all decided to have a picnic in the mountains wondering why they were suddenly cut off from the main army (or in their minds, thinking they were the main army, and that my small elite group were goofing off). Celice(broken 100 stars Tyrfing. A wonderful feeling.) and Sety(staffs) were the only ones moving across the map and soon Yuria(the ultimate cheat) joined up and that's the end.

Everyone has their moment of fame. Sety has it until the very end, no matter who's child he is.

[Swordsalmon]

-Debating

Alright, so all I've read is Arthur is pwn, Sety is lolpwn, Sety > Arthur.

Sety always beats Arthur, guys. :(

And I will respectfully say now, Ishtar (I) is loleasy to kill. Azel!Arthur easily OHKO's her on enemy's turn thanks to wrath; Arthur is always useful.

He was never meant to be the god child Sety is, but he was meant to be useful.

Alright, judging both pairings in the long run here:

Pursuit is always under surveillance. Arthur needs to rely on that Continue of his constantly, which is a pain if you're into over killing an entire fleet with a single unit (it is fun, do not deny it.)

Levin!Sety can murder everything in sight epilogue, enemy phase. What can Levin!Arthur do? Pray he isn't hit too many times.

While 16 AVO doesn't seem all that much apart, when dealing with FE4, the mother of all games wanting to screw you over (the granddaddy award goes to FE5) and when Holsety users are so full of epic avoid, that small amount of avoid difference will make a difference.

Lastly, I'm not saying Levin!Arthur is shit versus Levin!Sety. This was all originally for pairings for a first timer. Levin!Sety is a much safer route than Levin!Arthur. Why? None of the enemies ever bother to attack Arthur in the first place if he's the Holsety wielder!! He'll hardly get any experience not counting the arena because enemies would rather ignore him and wait for you to attack them (tactician rank dropping) and everyone else near Arthur is taking the kills.

Levin!Sety still beats Levin!Arthur even if this wasn't about first time pairings to use, and which is more useful. Earlier bosses (the ones where Arthur is so highly regarded being the Holsety wielder and all) are absolute jokes, including the Freeges. It's the latter bosses that after Sety joins that you should be worried about. Sure, Arthur can 2OHKO for sure anything and anyone not named Alvis and Yurius, but Sety can do the same, much faster thanks to sage caps, but just OHKOing guaranteed. He kills everything in sight in epilogue, (especially, not limited to, the following:) the trio sisters, Ishtar the third, and all of the twelve dark warlords swiftly and just. He can do the same for Arion and his massive army in chapter nine (but I leave that to Delmudd now >0>; )

[The following is bias]

The lulz, Levin!Arthur is for those who want to haxx throughout all of the second generation with doing little to no effort in raising other units. I guarantee almost half of your army is either under leveled or obsolete because you remembered to stop bothering if none of the other guys are even coming close. This happened after Scorpio died on my last play-through. Everyone had no further use; they all decided to have a picnic in the mountains wondering why they were suddenly cut off from the main army (or in their minds, thinking they were the main army, and that my small elite group were goofing off). Celice(broken 100 stars Tyrfing. A wonderful feeling.) and Sety(staffs) were the only ones moving across the map and soon Yuria(the ultimate cheat) joined up and that's the end.

Everyone has their moment of fame. Sety has it until the very end, no matter who's child he is.

Levin son Arthur is still better than Levin son Sety because he's incredible the entire second generation instead of being incredible for only half the second generation.

Relying on Wrath is a horrible idea, since it involves severely weakening Arthur's durability. Holsety is more reliable.

Except Arthur can rely on Continue. Besides one-rounding every generic in the first chapter, Arthur has a 40+% Continue activation at base level. Besides that, there's Critical with Levin. He doesn't have any troubles.

Same with Levin Arthur. And Aless. And Shannan. And Celice. And Lakche. Being awesome for the final chapter isn't really that huge of a benefit unlike owning those Loptus Priests in Chapter 7 that no-one will touch.

Not really, as Arthur also gains +10 Avoid from being Phee's lover. A 6% advantage then isn't that important.

What? There is the Arena to raise everyone in the second generation, who will all be epic unless you chose worthless pairings (lol BriggidxClaude). It's unlikely that only Arthur will be at a huge level while everyone else isn't.

Using a holy weapon from the start is considerably more beneficial then having it half-way through the game.

[Chalis]

Levin!Arthur is about as good as any other holy weapon user with perks of being the only mounted magic one.

But he doesn't promote until early/mid chapter eight (if you bother to train everyone else at the same rate and because enemies are smart enough to avoid Holsety users at all times, few kills at a time for Arthur.) , where-- hey, Sety joins --up until that point, he was just a mage with horrible durability (where the slightest mishaps with RNG mean certain doom for non-Pursuit Arthur!) and move. (And if it's mid chapter eight, he'll have to take his sweet time coming back to the front line... Meanwhile, Sety is owning with his Lightning tome.)

Also, Mage Knight caps suck :(

Levin!Sety > Levin!Arthur still.

What? There is the Arena to raise everyone in the second generation, who will all be epic unless you chose worthless pairings (lol BriggidxClaude). It's unlikely that only Arthur will be at a huge level while everyone else isn't.

That's what I meant. Arthur's getting half of his EXP from the arena because no one feels like touching him.

Coming in early /=/ lolraep*

*By lolraep, I mean massive killings in one turn.

[Seph]

I was going to post my reply to Mekkah, I even saved what I wrote on Notepad before going to sleep. It's a shame I couldn't reply back..

Anyway Mekkah, I found that your knowledge was wrong in these cases:

Levin!Sety can use staves ( http://serenesforest.net/fe4/class.htm ).

You have to bring back Shanan from the shrine since you have to conquer it without hurting ranks.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/564404/51151

Shannan can

possibly take care of all of the Dark Mages, but it's likely that he will

eventually be hit, so bring Rana along with Celice to rendezvous with him.

I don't have a perfect memory but if they rendezvous, why can't you bring him back to help with Ishtor and his soldiers?

Julia and Arthur|Holsety will make quick work of a large

portion of the army. Ishtor can be deadly with Storm(he usually won't activate

Continue while equipped with that, but it will happen once in a while), so

send a high evade unit like Arthur|Holsety or Shannan to take care of him.

Shannan can take the place of Arthur in a lot of places.

All in all Chapter 6, 7 and 8 can already be handled easily without Holsety Arthur (ranking included and he isn't even that good thanks to lack of Pursuit, poor stat caps and lack of staves) and I'd rather have the best character in the game (barring Julia).

Levin!Arthur is a good choice, but beginners should go for Levin!Sety. Easy and reliable.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Julius

[SupremeRulerOfJugdral]

Okay, it seemed as though Julius, Azel, Tiltyu and Mekkah are the most vocal people in here. So here's one last question to them;

I'm at chapter 2, I'm itching to conquer Mackily, but the ballistae are throwing me off, which means that Diadora can't get past them and use Silence on the Bishop. Any advice? Oh, and Fury breaking into their range didn't really help, as she got lolpwned by the Sleep Staff.

Other news: I resolved, in frustration, to bring EVERYONE back to Heirhein and Arena-ing the hell out of them, mainly to get Aideen to a High Priest. She's doing great, tyvm. Finn has also proved himself to be a lot better than I thought, with the Elite Ring and lolpwning a Forrest lvl23 with a Hero Spear, I just may promote him after all... Alec, Noish and Ardan are already benched; I have doubts of keeping Beowulf in the team too, he's just not getting enough EXP... Ethlin is a lvl 16 troubador, I WILL promoted her into a paladin, because healing jeigans always impressed me.

Jamka: lvl 15 Alec, Noish & Ardan: BENCHED. Diadora: lvl 5? 6? Dew: lvl 2? he's pathetic...

Aideen: lvl 13 Cuan: lvl 15? Azel: lvl 10 Ayra: lvl 13?

Beowulf: lvl 11 Finn: lvl 17 Fury: lvl 12 Holyn: lvl 15?

Ethlin: lvl 16 Sigurd: lvl 14 Levin: lvl 13 Lachesis: lvl 7?

Midir: Dead, was lvl 9-12 when killed.

So, how's my boyz going? They pimpin' They not?

[Seph]

I actually had my units ignore the Sleep staff and conquer that place as soon as possible to avoid damage and sleep, which worked well for me. Use this guide if you have problems:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/564404/51151

The Mackily troops should be lured out with a high durability unit, like

Cuan/Sigurd, or a defense-blessed Lex. All of the non-Fire Mage units have

Pursuit, so check everyone's attack speed before charging in. Fin with the

Hero Lance makes this area MUCH easier. Kill off the Armor with the Javelin,

and have a couple unpromoted mounts stand right next to the blue squares that

denote Clement's Sleep Staff range and a Cuan and Sigurd behind them. Kill

Clement and have Sigurd seize the castle on the same turn afterwards so that

the arches don't screw you over.

[Mekkah]

Another trick is to lure the infantry troops out to the open and kill them off there instead of fighting them under ballista range. One way to do it is to get someone put to sleep (you could use Sylvia if she's still up at the village/forest mess, or else fly over Fury), which triggers the troops to rush, or else simply put someone on the edge of their attacking range.

All your mounted units can end their turn right out of Clement's Sleep range, then get a hit in next turn. Sigurd and Cuan can do it and move out of range after that so that an unpromoted mount such as Lex or Fin can get the kill (basically what Voltaire said).

[Chalis]

Okay, it seemed as though Julius, Azel, Tiltyu and Mekkah are the most vocal people in here. So here's one last question to them;

I'm at chapter 2, I'm itching to conquer Mackily, but the ballistae are throwing me off, which means that Diadora can't get past them and use Silence on the Bishop. Any advice? Oh, and Fury breaking into their range didn't really help, as she got lolpwned by the Sleep Staff.

Other news: I resolved, in frustration, to bring EVERYONE back to Heirhein and Arena-ing the hell out of them, mainly to get Aideen to a High Priest. She's doing great, tyvm. Finn has also proved himself to be a lot better than I thought, with the Elite Ring and lolpwning a Forrest lvl23 with a Hero Spear, I just may promote him after all... Alec, Noish and Ardan are already benched; I have doubts of keeping Beowulf in the team too, he's just not getting enough EXP... Ethlin is a lvl 16 troubador, I WILL promoted her into a paladin, because healing jeigans always impressed me.

Jamka: lvl 15 Alec, Noish & Ardan: BENCHED. Diadora: lvl 5? 6? Dew: lvl 2? he's pathetic...

Aideen: lvl 13 Cuan: lvl 15? Azel: lvl 10 Ayra: lvl 13?

Beowulf: lvl 11 Finn: lvl 17 Fury: lvl 12 Holyn: lvl 15?

Ethlin: lvl 16 Sigurd: lvl 14 Levin: lvl 13 Lachesis: lvl 7?

Midir: Dead, was lvl 9-12 when killed.

So, how's my boyz going? They pimpin' They not?

Wow. We're playing at the same rate. Well, I started over again anyway... I laugh at how much I boss abuse and warp staff abuse. I'm in early chapter four now but I'll tell you what I did, and though this sounds tedious it beats the living hell out of Lachesis getting mauled or risking someone in the next chapter. It will make life easier.

Stave abuse her. Near a castle, let Lex go in the arena each time and just keep healing him. Promote her. Exp and love points all in the same turn.

Keep Sylvia away from bachelors if she is not needed. You don't want to end up with... anything unwanted. More specifically, keep her away from Levin.

If you don't feel like risking it, move Diadora ALL the way to the other side of the forest, near a village just before Mackily, and then silence him. This takes a very long time, so I suggest you save state and see what your best option is by doing the riskier first, and follow what Julius and Mekkah said. Do different variations of the same thing before deciding to use the longer route. It takes patience I wasn't aware I had.

You're gonna want to promote Finn at some point eventually.

Hopefully by now Adan has done the only significant thing he will ever do, and is perma-benched. I never found a use for Beowulf this time he committed suicide against Sigurd and gave him exp. so I don't know if he's good or not.

As for Deu, don't give up on him.

I'm not sure if this is a good Deu.

(Most of the exp he earned was being attacked by the army of bandits Gandolf sent against him in the forest. Exp adds up quickly.)

Deu has these crazy growths that can go either or. He isn't much of a fighter until after promotion but he has pretty good dodge at the higher levels like ~16. Boss abuse him, preferably a boss that can't kill him in one shot no matter the numbers that say they'll miss.

[Fia]

Okay, it seemed as though Julius, Azel, Tiltyu and Mekkah are the most vocal people in here. So here's one last question to them;

I'm at chapter 2, I'm itching to conquer Mackily, but the ballistae are throwing me off, which means that Diadora can't get past them and use Silence on the Bishop. Any advice? Oh, and Fury breaking into their range didn't really help, as she got lolpwned by the Sleep Staff.

Other news: I resolved, in frustration, to bring EVERYONE back to Heirhein and Arena-ing the hell out of them, mainly to get Aideen to a High Priest. She's doing great, tyvm. Finn has also proved himself to be a lot better than I thought, with the Elite Ring and lolpwning a Forrest lvl23 with a Hero Spear, I just may promote him after all... Alec, Noish and Ardan are already benched; I have doubts of keeping Beowulf in the team too, he's just not getting enough EXP... Ethlin is a lvl 16 troubador, I WILL promoted her into a paladin, because healing jeigans always impressed me.

Jamka: lvl 15 Alec, Noish & Ardan: BENCHED. Diadora: lvl 5? 6? Dew: lvl 2? he's pathetic...

Aideen: lvl 13 Cuan: lvl 15? Azel: lvl 10 Ayra: lvl 13?

Beowulf: lvl 11 Finn: lvl 17 Fury: lvl 12 Holyn: lvl 15?

Ethlin: lvl 16 Sigurd: lvl 14 Levin: lvl 13 Lachesis: lvl 7?

Midir: Dead, was lvl 9-12 when killed.

So, how's my boyz going? They pimpin' They not?

Go with Julius' tactic, that's what I did to pass this annoying stage.

You probably want to level up Azel soon. A Mage Knight is very useful in this game, IMO.

You better promote Finn for you own good in the future. And promote Ethlin if you can, you will get a better Althena then.

Beowulf is quite good, not a trash like Adan, Noish, or Alec, but he isn't powerful either. Medicore unit.

If you want abuse Level up Lachesis, you better do it in this chapter. It would help you a lot in the next chapter. As for how to do it? Ethlin's Return Staff is your best friend. Just use her to return anyone from the gate of the main castle and make sure Sylvia is ready inside there.

Instead of keep Sylvia away from Levin, you better more worry on keeping Sylvia away from ALEC. Seriously, don't let the two of them do their conversation. It can bite you back if you are trying for Claude/Sylvia. =/

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

I remember when I first play FE4 like 3 years ago.

[Agro]

Beowulf is much better than Alec since he can actually get A-rank swords (even if it IS after promotion).

Like I said, get Dew the Light Sword Ethlin has. He'll actually do damage since it targets Res.

[Mekkah]

And promote Ethlin if you can, you will get a better Althena then.

This is false. Class bases are taken off the numbers needed for the child's bases, so promoting someone doesn't do anything for that.

Also, Dew gets his own Wind Sword in some secret event in Ch3, so I usually don't bother giving him the Light Sword.

I'd argue Alec > Beowulf, but this is not the topic for it.