Apparently Levail is not immune to leathiality

[Killer Poleax]

Hm. I guess so.

You aren't probably using Mist as a frontliner anyway if you have any sense.

Yeah, I only use her for healing. I do hate Sothe for most of the same reasons you do. I'm just gonna say that Sothe doesn't fit my playstyle and leave it at that.

[Mufasa]

3 posts each and then the judges decide if no one forfeits. And if you have time to debate it now, you have time to debate it there.

Can't we just move this topic there and call it the debate? It pretty much is what we're gonna say.

[Florete]

Can't we just move this topic there and call it the debate? It pretty much is what we're gonna say.

Hehehe. Not quite buddy. It doesn't really work like that. 3 posts means all of our arguments and rebuttals must all fit in that space, and I still have a few more things I haven't thrown out. I don't want you quitting on me this time either.

I also find it funny you never mentioned my saying Heather > Volke.

[Mufasa]

Hehehe. Not quite buddy. It doesn't really work like that. 3 posts means all of our arguments and rebuttals must all fit in that space, and I still have a few more things I haven't thrown out. I don't want you quitting on me this time either.

I also find it funny you never mentioned my saying Heather > Volke.

I just threw it away as a ridiculous notion.

Besides. This is about Sothe and Volke anyway. Not Heather. I only mentioned Heather because I know most people that support Sothe are only fanboys of him and they'd never argue her over Volke even though she and Sothe are pretty much the same.

[Florete]

Do we have a debate? You creating this topic suggests to me that it's what you were wanting anyway.

[Mufasa]

Do we have a debate? You creating this topic suggests to me that it's what you were wanting anyway.

Actually, I only made this topic to discuss how awesome it was that Volke filleted Levail. Ninji was the one that brought Sothe up. I didn't want to turn this into a debate. But he said that Sothe was 100% more useful than Volke. Which, though Sothe may be more useful than Volke In the minds of the demented. Lol He is NOT 100% better than Volke. So I had to slap some sense into the Sothe Fanboy that is Ninji.

[Lord Raven]

Bear in mind, I fucking hate Sothe, especially the fact that he's forced on me after Part III. And I fucking love Volke because he's a badass. But Sothe is so much better and more useful than Volke it's ridiculous.

You can't accuse me of fanboyism here. Even then, you may as well spout out relevant counters because "fanboyism" isn't among them.

-Using a chest key is the same as using Sothe. It takes up one turn for one unit. The only advantage of using Sothe, is that you don't have to waste a turn for another more useful character. There aren't enough keys to go around. That's true. But if there were, he could easily be replaced.

But there _aren't_.

-He's below average IMO. He has the worst STR cap of all the beorc units. Laguz don't count, cause their cap doubles when transformed. Sure he can survive, but so can a heron. That doesn't make him good in battle.

Nobody gives a damn about his cap. That's only relevant at the end of the game.

Heron's can't survive for jack unless you give them a lot of BEXP.

His battle ability doesn't matter when you're comparing him to Volke. He's invaluable in Part I being basically the only guy who can take more than three or four hits and double.

-With Volke, you can give him Gamble, Baselard, and with his auto skill, he has a decent chance of activating Leathiality. And even if he DOESN'T activate Leathiality, he still has a high chance of critical, which will kill most units in one blow. And if not, he will attack a unit twice. Thus, he has a 95% chance of killing people. And even with gamble's downside, he still has a 75% chance of hitting. Which is still good with an 80% chance of critical.

Irrelevant considering how offense has nothing to do with why Sothe > Volke.

Sothe is useful for part one. In fact, I'll even go so far as to say he's necessary. But after that, he's more of a hinderance, and will be overshadowed by other units. Units other than Volke as well.

You're talking about after Part III there, at best. He's doing just as well as everyone else in Part III Edited December 14, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Mufasa]

But there _aren't_.

Nobody gives a damn about his cap. That's only relevant at the end of the game.

Heron's can't survive for jack unless you give them a lot of EXP.

His battle ability doesn't matter when you're comparing him to Volke. He's invaluable in Part I being basically the only guy who can take more than three or four hits and do a lot of damage.

Irrelevant considering how offense has nothing to do with why Sothe > Volke.

You're talking about after Part III there, at best. He's doing just as well as everyone else in Part III

-That doesn't mean that he couldn't be replaced in theory. You can't replace Volke's battle skills with an item.

-I DO give Herons a lot of EXP.

-So being good in Part one exempts him from being below par in the other parts? He's a EXP hog in Part 1 anyway. So he'll be more damage to your team, than he's helping. You wouldn't call Volug a good unit even though he's a battle god for Part one.

-Battle prowess is intergral in this game. Ignoring that Volke's battle prowess is 1000 times better than Sothe in a debate is stupidity. Especially in a game where the purpose is to kill the other team.

-He is if you let him steal all the EXP from everyone in part 1.

[Lord Raven]

-That doesn't mean that he couldn't be replaced in theory. You can't replace Volke's battle skills with an item.

No but you can replace it with a myriad of people.

... not EXP.

-I DO give Herons a lot of EXP.

So you have enough BEXP to give your Herons so they can survive and also to share with the rest of your full unit? I must ask you how you accomplish this on a mode above Easy.

-So being good in Part one exempts him from being below par in the other parts? He's a EXP hog in Part 1 anyway. So he'll be more damage to your team, than he's helping. You wouldn't call Volug a good unit even though he's a battle god for Part one.

Yes, it pretty much does.

His status as an EXP hog is irrelevant (in HM, with his Bronze Dagger he has a hard time killing and weakens to a point where anyone can steal the kill, and nobody gains much more EXP anyway so don't even) considering how he's the only one that can actually take a couple hits.

His supposed "damage" to your team is "hogging" EXP, which is a point someone like Mekkah can pick apart because I don't want to get too much into it. I'd rather he hog EXP than let an enemy kill my unit, though.

-Battle prowess is intergral in this game. Ignoring that Volke's battle prowess is 1000 times better than Sothe in a debate is stupidity. Especially in a game where the purpose is to kill the other team.

The game's purpose is to listen to the objective and play efficiently as possible. Efficient play demands you use Sothe in Parts I and III; efficient play, in fact, doesn't go anywhere near demanding you to play as Volke in Part IV. Especially since so many units are better than him offensively at this point. If not, they're on par with him (or he's on par with them...)

-He is if you let him steal all the EXP from everyone in part 1.

But you won't. This point is black and white thinking at its finest. Edited December 14, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Florete]

-That doesn't mean that he couldn't be replaced in theory. You can't replace Volke's battle skills with an item.

-I DO give Herons a lot of EXP.

-So being good in Part one exempts him from being below par in the other parts? He's a EXP hog in Part 1 anyway. So he'll be more damage to your team, than he's helping. You wouldn't call Volug a good unit even though he's a battle god for Part one.

-Battle prowess is intergral in this game. Ignoring that Volke's battle prowess is 1000 times better than Sothe in a debate is stupidity. Especially in a game where the purpose is to kill the other team.

-He is if you let him steal all the EXP from everyone in part 1.

That means nothing. Absolutely nothing.

And neither does that.

He's not below par, how many times must I say it? He's just as good as anyone else in part 3 and decent in part 4. And experience hog is an invalid argument anyway. Plus, Volug is a pretty good unit.

Ignoring the fact that Sothe is helping his team for a lot longer than Volke is stupidity.

Once again, a terrible argument. Are we going to make this official or not? I'm tired of spouting out the same things over and over again and trying to work past your bias. I don't care if you hate him, but listen to Nathan. He hates Sothe too, but he admits that Sothe is still good.

[Mufasa]

No but you can replace it with a myriad of EXP.

So you have enough BEXP to give your Herons so they can survive and also to share with the rest of your full unit? I must ask you how you accomplish this on a mode above Easy.

Yes, it pretty much does.

His status as an EXP hog is irrelevant (in HM, with his Bronze Dagger he has a hard time killing and weakens to a point where anyone can steal the kill, and nobody gains much more EXP anyway so don't even) considering how he's the only one that can actually take a couple hits.

His supposed "damage" to your team is "hogging" EXP, which is a point someone like Mekkah can pick apart because I don't want to get too much into it. I'd rather he hog EXP than let an enemy kill my unit, though.

The game's purpose is to listen to the objective and play efficiently as possible. Efficient play demands you use Sothe in Parts I and III; efficient play, in fact, doesn't go anywhere near demanding you to play as Volke in Part IV. Especially since so many units are better than him offensively at this point. If not, they're on par with him (or he's on par with them...)

But you won't. This point is black and white thinking at its finest.

-Dude. No you can't. Volke has the potential to be the most deadliest character in the game.

-Paragon.

-LRN2Strategy.

-Most of the time the objective is to "Defeat all units." In the entire part 4, the point is to either route, or defeat the boss. Sothe can't do that, becuase his strength is so low. Volke may not be around as much, but he accomplishes that task much better than Sothe.

[Lord Raven]

-Dude. No you can't. Volke has the potential to be the most deadliest character in the game.

Care explaining this to me? I'm a little slow in understanding how.

-Paragon.

My herons are now gaining 20 EXP per turn instead of 10! Woot! Two levels per chapter hooray!

-LRN2Strategy.

LRN2Counter points.

-Most of the time the objective is to "Defeat all units." In the entire part 4, the point is to either route, or defeat the boss. Sothe can't do that, becuase his strength is so low. Volke may not be around as much, but he accomplishes that task much better than Sothe.

So? Knives are a weak weapon, and the two of them are confined to them; neither are killing particularly often. Especially considering you have to go out of your way with items to get Volke the Baselard by the laguz chapter and the fact that your team's being hindered by an optional knife user when you already have a mandatory one by the endgame.

His ability to kill doesn't even matter when you look at what Sothe's doing before Part IV. Which is the entire basis of Sothe>Volke, and it's a pretty big thing too.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Florete]

Actually, I only made this topic to discuss how awesome it was that Volke filleted Levail. Ninji was the one that brought Sothe up. I didn't want to turn this into a debate. But he said that Sothe was 100% more useful than Volke. Which, though Sothe may be more useful than Volke In the minds of the demented. Lol He is NOT 100% better than Volke. So I had to slap some sense into the Sothe Fanboy that is Ninji.

Using the incredibley deadly combination of Baselard, Gamble and Volke, (And a C support with Stefan) I had Volke attack Levail, and Volke activated Leathiality.

It was beautiful. I don't care that Volke can't open chests, anyone who says Sothe is better deserves to hang upside down 30 feet in the air for three hours while they think about what they've done.

Quoted for lolz.

Dammit Lyle, either accept the debate or accept defeat.

[Mufasa]

Quoted for lolz.

Dammit Lyle, either accept the debate or accept defeat.

Oh. I forgot about that statement. My bad.

I've got no reason to accept defeat though. I'll accept your challenge then.

[Agro]

Ignoring that Volke's battle prowess is 1000 times better than Sothe in a debate is stupidity. Especially in a game where the purpose is to kill the other team.

To quote:

No way.

To counter your point in Volke using Gamble, here's some stats:

Volke's hit: 235

W/ Gamble: 117

That means 117 base hit. I'll use the enemy you mentioned before; Levail. Levail has 24 speed, and 20(+3) luck. That makes his avoid 71. We won't factor in biorhythm, since both characters have a pattern which is mostly unaffected. This would make Volke's hit with Gamble 46%, or, with true hit factored in, 43%. That's less than 50%, and, I would say, a pretty shitty hit rate. Volke's base critical rate is 43. Combined with Baselard, that's 58. Levail's luck will make it 33 again, and with Gamble, that will put it to 66%. In total, 66% of 43% makes it a meager 28% (rounded down).

That means Volke's chance to land a hit and critical with Gamble in two attacks is 56%. Not reliable, if you ask me.

Also, it bothers me you can't even spell lethality correctly.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Wander

[Florete]

Oh. I forgot about that statement. My bad.

I've got no reason to accept defeat though. I'll accept your challenge then.

I've made the topic. You or me to open?

[Mufasa]

I've made the topic. You or me to open?

Ladies first.

Boy, people can get so bitter about this....I don't HATE people for liking Sothe more than Volke. I just think they're stupid in that concept.

[Lord Raven]

I'm curious how I was being bitter.

At any rate, it's sorta like a sport and it's kinda fun. And it's discussion. Stop taking things so personally, man :')

Wander: I'm actually willing to bet my balls that "True hit" applies to FE10.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Mufasa]

I'm curious how I was being bitter.

At any rate, it's sorta like a sport and it's kinda fun. And it's discussion. Stop taking things so personally, man :')

Well that's my point.

I was more reffering to Wander's post where he used my "No way" Quoted by myself to respond to a statement I said before. Not you.

[Knife]

Ladies first.

Boy, people can get so bitter about this....I don't HATE people for liking Sothe more than Volke. I just think they're stupid in that concept.

That's the thing. You don't have to like Sothe to know how useful he is. It is fine that you personally like Volke more than Sothe. However, arguing that Volke is better than Sothe is where you fail. Also, if you dislike Sothe because he barely has a story purpose at the end, how would you like Volke better? Sothe has 100 times more significance to the story. All Volke does is finds Izuka.

Don't get me wrong, I like both of them for using an awesome weapon type. Even though I can admit Knives are fail weapons.

[Agro]

Well that's my point.

I was more reffering to Wander's post where he used my "No way" Quoted by myself to respond to a statement I said before. Not you.

I wasn't trying to be bitter, I was trying to be witty. Obviously I failed.

[Killer Poleax]

I wasn't trying to be bitter, I was trying to be witty. Obviously I failed.

I don't think you failed. I understood what you were saying.

[Fireman]

Ladies first.

Boy, people can get so bitter about this....I don't HATE people for liking Sothe more than Volke. I just think they're stupid in that concept.

1. You're calling everyone else bitter when you have to bash Sothe everytime you have a post with the word 'Volke' in it?

2. So you're saying everyone who likes Sothe more than Volke is stupid...why...? Because they have an opinion and since you don't agree with it, you consider them to be stupid 'in that concept'?

[Mufasa]

1. You're calling everyone else bitter when you have to bash Sothe everytime you have a post with the word 'Volke' in it?

2. So you're saying everyone who likes Sothe more than Volke is stupid...why...? Because they have an opinion and since you don't agree with it, you consider them to be stupid 'in that concept'?

1. I hate Sothe. I don't hate the people that say he's better.

2. I can't fathom that they think Sothe is better than Volke. I can see no real reason as to why that is, other than that they must have some screws loose.

So yes, I suppose I am calling them stupid for disagreeing with me. Sue me. Probably not a good idea to say that to the forest judge....

[Mekkah]

Sothe has much more availability than Volke does, and for many of them, he is your best unit with ease. Volke has no such thing - in the chapters he is even around, he gets his ass kicked by royals and all. And then Sothe is 100% guaranteed to be in the final, while I need to sacrifice someone else for Volke.

Volke may be better at brawling for a few chapters, but I can't see him beating out Sothe overall.