OMG it's a tier list

[Naglfar]

I've had multiple tries where a Pelleas miss caused me 2 or 3 more turns.

So Pelleas saves turns, huh?

[Narga_Rocks]

So Pelleas saves turns, huh?

Not really. He costs turns 'cause I was stupid enough to try to use him in the northeast rather than use someone else. My problem was having Ulki and some unit I forget wander too far away (I kinda forgot about the reinforcements up there) and so Pelleas had to try to help. Besides, I'm slower than guys like dondon. I'm not sure the northeast reinforcements ever even appear for those guys.

And even if none of that was true, the chance of him missing something and thus screwing up is far too high for him to get much, if any, credit for his attempt at helping up there.

[Anouleth]

As I recall, I had Pelleas chip something with Fenrir in 4-2 so that Elincia didn't have to proc Stun. In that sense, he increased the probability of a successful 4-turn.

[Narga_Rocks]

As I recall, I had Pelleas chip something with Fenrir in 4-2 so that Elincia didn't have to proc Stun. In that sense, he increased the probability of a successful 4-turn.

That's better than relying on him alone. If he fails, at least Elincia has a shot at stunning. It's minor, and probably not something to keep him out of bottom, but at least it might keep him above certain units.

[Vicious Sal]

It should be more like everyone gets one of the bottom tier units and whoever does best while using them. Problem there, of course, is that everyone has different skill levels so it solves nothing regardless.

So by adding more variables and creating a less clear base line, we can get better results?

There's a reason I said that everyone should have the same team, we can compare the characters through 6 runs. Who had an efficient clear, and who did they use most. Who was used least etc. We can compare, If you have all the other characters available, this isn't clear, because they influence the input the bottoms provide. As in, they render it moot.

[Narga_Rocks]

So by adding more variables and creating a less clear base line, we can get better results?

There's a reason I said that everyone should have the same team, we can compare the characters through 6 runs. Who had an efficient clear, and who did they use most. Who was used least etc. We can compare, If you have all the other characters available, this isn't clear, because they influence the input the bottoms provide. As in, they render it moot.

It's kinda moot if you stick with the bottoms only, though. The idea behind placing these units on the tier list is that they are assumed to be used among a regular team. As in, you don't try to beat chapters like 1-7 with only meg, fiona, and ilyana or something silly like that. You'd still need to have Volug and Sothe and the LEA available and just see what kind of use Meg or Fiona can bring to such a team. Hence why something more useful would be for each person to have only one of these crappy units. As you say, though, it adds more variables which is a problem.

So here, if you want to reduce variables and create a base line while still creating a USEFUL sample, how about this:

each person plays a bunch of runthroughs that are all the same.

in runthrough A, for each person, you play with one deployment slot empty in as many battles as this is possible (eg not 2-P or 2-1, as you can't drop a unit from deployment there). They keep the same team of decent to great units. Call it team GO.

runthrough B, each person plays with team GO + Meg and Astrid

runthrough C, each person plays with team GO + Fiona and Ilyana

D

E

etc

basically, this gives both a useful sample and removes some variables like play ability and stuff like that.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Narga_Rocks

[RNG Princess]

I like that idea, doing a run with one or two bottom/low tiered characters to observe their contributions. I'm sure if resources are used well some of them can turn out nicely (at least I think that Astrid, Kyza, Lethe, and Meg I think).

BTW I just figured out in my NM draft, Lyre can't get to SS strike even by endgame I truly doubt she can get to it in HM.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Zanarkin]

Kyza can't be any good, unlike mordecai, he has no defence, he dies quickly as a result, his strength is lol worthy, and eventhough his speed is great, you are better off just smiting/shoving with him.

[RNG Princess]

Kyza can't be any good, unlike mordecai, he has no defence, he dies quickly as a result, his strength is lol worthy, and eventhough his speed is great, you are better off just smiting/shoving with him.

What if you raise him with Blossom surely that could give him a chance at something?

[Lord Raven]

Well that just means more +1s... I still can't imagine him being easy to train.

[Anouleth]

Kyza can't be any good, unlike mordecai, he has no defence, he dies quickly as a result, his strength is lol worthy, and eventhough his speed is great, you are better off just smiting/shoving with him.

55HP/20DEF is fine.

[Zanarkin]

55HP/20DEF is fine.

It sure as hell wasn't in the normal draft.

I can't see him being useful in a normal HM PT where resources are more distributed than in a NM draft.

[aku chi]

It sure as hell wasn't in the normal draft.

I can't see him being useful in a normal HM PT where resources are more distributed than in a NM draft.

Kyza's durability is at least as good as Titania's, Oscar's, and Boyd's. It's nothing special, but it's passable. It certainly isn't his chief problem, which is his occasional inability to 2RKO thanks to mediocre Atk and not-quite-fast-enough Speed.

[Dark Sage]

I like that idea, doing a run with one or two bottom/low tiered characters to observe their contributions. I'm sure if resources are used well some of them can turn out nicely (at least I think that Astrid, Kyza, Lethe, and Meg I think).

BTW I just figured out in my NM draft, Lyre can't get to SS strike even by endgame I truly doubt she can get to it in HM.

Astrid, I can see being "OK" with Paragon/Blossom and a Silencer/Forge, and I can also see how Lethe can be fixed with an Energy Drop and BEXP, but Meg and Kyza are for the most part unsalvageable (or in Kyza's case, he requires a Wing, which is an opportunity cost he can't pay back).

Edited September 29, 2011 by Clockwork Sage

[aku chi]

Astrid, I can see being "OK" with Paragon/Blossom and a Silencer/Forge, and I can also see how Lethe can be fixed with an Energy Drop and BEXP, but Meg and Kyza are for the most part unsalvageable (or in Kyza's case, he requires a Wing, which is an opportunity cost he can't pay back).

If we're talking about Part 3 performance, I'd take Kyza over Lethe.

Lethe - Level 21

51 HP, 26 Atk, 24 Spd, 18 Def

Kyza - Level 18

55 HP, 30 Atk, 22 Spd, 20 Def

That particular 2 Spd gap is pretty significant in 3-4 and 3-7. It lets Lethe double Halberdiers, Warriors, and Snipers for a while which Kyza cannot. But then Lethe can't double most enemies come 3-8 unless she's proc'd Spd, which is hard to do naturally, because she gains Cexp like a tier 3 beorc (in other words, she doesn't). On the other hand we can Bexp with a very good chance of getting Spd, but that sacrifices any chance of her getting Str or Def, which she needs badly.

Kyza, meanwhile, has pretty good Str, Spd, and Def growths, and he has at least some chance of getting Cexp. If we're lucky, Kyza will get to doubling, which means 2RKOing. This isn't too impressive, but Lethe's prospects are worse. Even with an Energy Drop, Lethe mearly ties Kya's Atk - until Kyza procs Str. Anyways, we can take the guesswork out of Kyza's doubling prospects by giving him a Speedwings. 26 Spd doubles everything in Part 3 except Swordmasters. Another option is to Bexp + Blossom slowplay Kyza. With Blossom, Kyza's effective growths are 1.28 Str, 1.16 Spd, and 1.28 Def.

On the non-stats side of things, Kyza has the better gauge. Lethe has Part 2 and more guaranteed doubling to boost Strike Rank, so she might reach S Strike sometime around 3-10 if we're using her a bunch. That is pretty much essential for Lethe to do any kind of damage. Lethe is also a little closer to a mastery skill, but it will take an unrealistic amount of Bexp.

[Vykan12]

On the other hand we can Bexp with a very good chance of getting Spd, but that sacrifices any chance of her getting Str or Def, which she needs badly.

BEXP to 99 then. Full level-up on first attack next chapter.

I definitely agree that Kyza is better though in regards to part 3.

[Anouleth]

Kyza doesn't really "need" a Wing. There are plenty of Paladins, Sages, and Generals in Part 3 that he does fine against with his 22 base speed. Alternatively, you can shove him full of BEXP. A level of BEXP for Kyza costs 2700. By that point in the game, you can have as much as 20,000 BEXP. Obviously, it's not free, but there are more pleasant ways for him to reach 24 speed than through a Speedwing.

Certainly, I wouldn't think that Lethe is better than Kyza. Sure, she can take an Energy Drop to match Kyza's attack. However, Kyza's attack is itself pretty bad. Kyza should probably get a Drop himself!

EDIT: I made a mistake, the amount of BEXP you can have by 3-4 is about 10,000. That's not so pretty for Kysha.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Anouleth

[RNG Princess]

The only advantage Lethe has over Kyza Past Part 2 is that she's 3 levels ahead of him so she reaches Rend faster (9 levels of BEXP instead of 12) what sucks is that there is no BEXP to get her there soon .

Edited September 29, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[dondon151]

Kyza's durability is at least as good as Titania's, Oscar's, and Boyd's.

He has 19 more HP than Titania at base, and his avo isn't that much worse (~5 due to luk difference), so if Titania is durable enough to wreck stuff, Kyza is definitely durable enough to gum away at enemies.

[Anouleth]

Moreover, Kysha has really good defensive growths, which is more than can be said for Titania.

[Vicious Sal]

And thus forged hand axes seal the deal once more.

[Dark Sage]

And thus forged hand axes seal the deal once more.

What does this have to do with anything?

[Vicious Sal]

Why did titania eventually turn up while we were talking about low tiers? Comparison to kysha, why is tits higher than kysha? Forged hand axes. Close the tits case and let us go back to the low tier, shall we?

[Anouleth]

Why did titania eventually turn up while we were talking about low tiers? Comparison to kysha, why is tits higher than kysha? Forged hand axes. Close the tits case and let us go back to the low tier, shall we?

The point is rather that Kysha's durability is perfectly adequate, using Titania as an example.

Thing is, it's hard to comment on Kysha's ability without actually using him. It's hard to estimate how fast he levels, in particular. He certainly has good growths, so if he can keep up in level he can probably dig himself out of his pit.

[incognit0]

Why did titania eventually turn up while we were talking about low tiers? Comparison to kysha, why is tits higher than kysha? Forged hand axes. Close the tits case and let us go back to the low tier, shall we?

Nope. People were using Titania as a unit with similar durability with Kyza (since I am sure not a lot of people use Kyza). No one was comparing them. But evidently you thought we were, which is kinda funny considering no one was saying Kyza is better than TItania.