OMG it's a tier list

[Anouleth]

Perhaps some substantiating of your claim on 2-2 would be nice. I at least bothered to show numbers and reasoning with Kyza's 3-4.

Not sure what Drops on Kyza would even help.

His damage? Obviously, if you plan to never use Kysha, then it's no help at all, but there's no point in even having this discussion when you already seem to have decided that Kysha is Lyre-level trash who should be touched after 3-4.

34 Atk just means he does equal damage to Lethe on stuff she doubles while doing even more to stuff like Swordmasters and Generals, but none of this still does anything substantial.

Yes, I forgot, 34ATK is absolutely abysmal and unsalvageable. Why, it's a whole two points lower than Ranulf and Ulki! With that kind of insurmountable lead, we might as well not even bother.

[grandjackal]

His damage? Obviously, if you plan to never use Kysha, then it's no help at all, but there's no point in even having this discussion when you already seem to have decided that Kysha is Lyre-level trash who should be touched after 3-4.

My issue is that it doesn't let him do anything he doesn't already do, just 2-4 more extra damage than he normally does. That's not that huge a change.

Yes, I forgot, 34ATK is absolutely abysmal and unsalvageable. Why, it's a whole two points lower than Ranulf and Ulki! With that kind of insurmountable lead, we might as well not even bother.

Yes, ignoring the fact that Kyza only doubles mages (which he already kills) and Generals (which he still doesn't do that great amount of damage against), the fact that Ulki flies, or that these others put skills together to put it to even greater use, something Kyza can't really do...

This is kinda why when I first was hyping Kyza, I suggested a Wing. That actually helps substantially, as it changes him from "utilic for one chapter" to "This semi-tanky thing that can gum things down low enough so growth units can garnish the kill EXP". It gives him sort of an extra use, instead of a minor increase in the same stuff which wasn't impressive to begin with.

However, there was that issue of "why the wing on him over Titania or Haar?" since no one wants to crown either of them early anymore. However, now that I think about it, I have another thought about that as well. How about Resolve? People tend to think "Mordecai" but Moredecai is only getting into Resolve health untransformed, which is kinda stupid to expose an untransformed laguz to enemy phase. Transformed, he's got an unkillable 32 Def. He's not gonna get into Resolve health in that amount of time either. Kyza transformed has 55 HP (at half,27 HP) and 20 Def. 3-7, enemies have about 29-33 atk, meaning he could 3-4 attacks while transformed he could reach Resolve health. That could be done generally in 1 enemy phase while he's still doing damage, and form there he can try to maintain his health to act as a jeigen unit for growth units until he's dropped, free of use of stat boosters sine you might choose to drop him eventually. But hey, let's throw a stat booster on him. With the drops he's doing less damage than if he had a wing BEFORE Resolve, but with Resolve active, he can ORKO Swordmasters and 2RKO Dragonmasters, while leaving generally everything else in single digit HP aside from generals (3ROs).With wing, he does more damage before Resolve, but under Resolve while he's not ORKOing Swordmasters and 2RKOing Dragonmasters, he will have 39 Spd. Along with Luck, that's a total of 93 avoid. This at neutral generally reduces things to 20-30s displayed, so it also helps his durability through additional avoid (compared t without wing, which would be 80).

Take it as you will, but if you wanna hype, that's how you hype properly. Now it is time to wait for someone to come along and say "Titania and Haar should get everything"...

[Silith]

No, she is bad. Barely not getting 1-rounded is not "good". Especially when you consider that her damage is abysmal. She's what, 5HKOing Tigers and not doubling? Maybe 3HKOing Cats and definitely not doubling? If getting knocked down to single-digit HP by every enemy and 3-5RKOing isn't bad, then what is?

I was merely answering Kitty's question. I know Meg is not good in HM but Kitty just wanted to know how a Meg would look like at that point and how efficient she would be. Ofc we all know that meg CAN work if you don't mind double digit turncounts. (lulz)

As for the Kysha, I'm intrigued now and I really want to try him. He's like the only unit I never bothered to raise, using him only as a shove/smitebot and a meatshield up till now.

[Anouleth]

My issue is that it doesn't let him do anything he doesn't already do, just 2-4 more extra damage than he normally does. That's not that huge a change.

Actually, it's 4-8 extra damage.

Yes, ignoring the fact that Kyza only doubles mages (which he already kills) and Generals (which he still doesn't do that great amount of damage against), the fact that Ulki flies, or that these others put skills together to put it to even greater use, something Kyza can't really do...

This is kinda why when I first was hyping Kyza, I suggested a Wing. That actually helps substantially, as it changes him from "utilic for one chapter" to "This semi-tanky thing that can gum things down low enough so growth units can garnish the kill EXP". It gives him sort of an extra use, instead of a minor increase in the same stuff which wasn't impressive to begin with.

Except he can't pay the opportunity cost. It's easier and better to BEXP Kyza to .99 and give him Blossom. Do that three times, and it's +2 or +4STR/+4SPD, which lets him double for the rest of Part 3 (starting in 3-8). You can't do that with Titania or Haar. It's far better than sitting on the Wing until 3-4 just to get a weakener. And against a lot of enemy types, the Drop is just as good as the Wing. The Wing is really only notably better against Halberdiers, since typically with the Drop he puts most other enemies in range for someone else to kill. The Drop is on the other hand, better against Generals.

I also don't think that "utilic" is a very cromulent word.

However, there was that issue of "why the wing on him over Titania or Haar?" since no one wants to crown either of them early anymore. However, now that I think about it, I have another thought about that as well. How about Resolve? People tend to think "Mordecai" but Moredecai is only getting into Resolve health untransformed, which is kinda stupid to expose an untransformed laguz to enemy phase. Transformed, he's got an unkillable 32 Def. He's not gonna get into Resolve health in that amount of time either. Kyza transformed has 55 HP (at half,27 HP) and 20 Def. 3-7, enemies have about 29-33 atk, meaning he could 3-4 attacks while transformed he could reach Resolve health. That could be done generally in 1 enemy phase while he's still doing damage, and form there he can try to maintain his health to act as a jeigen unit for growth units until he's dropped, free of use of stat boosters sine you might choose to drop him eventually. But hey, let's throw a stat booster on him. With the drops he's doing less damage than if he had a wing BEFORE Resolve, but with Resolve active, he can ORKO Swordmasters and 2RKO Dragonmasters, while leaving generally everything else in single digit HP aside from generals (3ROs).With wing, he does more damage before Resolve, but under Resolve while he's not ORKOing Swordmasters and 2RKOing Dragonmasters, he will have 39 Spd. Along with Luck, that's a total of 93 avoid. This at neutral generally reduces things to 20-30s displayed, so it also helps his durability through additional avoid (compared t without wing, which would be 80).

I am reluctant to give Kysha the Wing in the first place, let alone purely to buff his avoid. It would be far easier to just give him BEXP/Blossom to boost his defense. Plus, you forgot to add in authority stars. He'd actually have 95 avoid without the Wing, which is pretty comfortable combined with his good concrete durability.

Take it as you will, but if you wanna hype, that's how you hype properly. Now it is time to wait for someone to come along and say "Titania and Haar should get everything"...

It's not even Titania and Haar. There are a million better uses for a Speedwing. You seem to rave about Kysha chipping down enemies for a growth unit to finish, but it would be way more efficient to just give the Speedwing to the growth unit in the first place. There are a thousand and one units that want the Wing. Ike if he's screwed, Rolf, Boyd, promoted Soren/Gatrie (for Part 4), Skrimir, Tanith, even Oscar to an extent depending on when he promotes.

[grandjackal]

Actually, it's 4-8 extra damage.

Err, derp. Pardon me.

Except he can't pay the opportunity cost. It's easier and better to BEXP Kyza to .99 and give him Blossom. Do that three times, and it's +2 or +4STR/+4SPD, which lets him double for the rest of Part 3 (starting in 3-8). You can't do that with Titania or Haar. It's far better than sitting on the Wing until 3-4 just to get a weakener. And against a lot of enemy types, the Drop is just as good as the Wing. The Wing is really only notably better against Halberdiers, since typically with the Drop he puts most other enemies in range for someone else to kill. The Drop is on the other hand, better against Generals.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but did it become better to start paying BEXP to help get people closer to level rather than cap them for assured stats? Secondly, to get him a full level, he requires 1,400 BEXP, which is not cheap in the slightest. Unless you're saying we feed him in small incriments, I don't think the BEXP argument is going to sit well. You're also telling me to do it 3 times with Blossom, which barely ups his growths at all.

As a note, you are forgetting this is an argument of Kyza vs Lethe. Kyza can kill mages and better against generals, you're forgetting that you're needing these energy drops just to equal him out to everything else. In fact, why not give the Drops to Lethe? Now she has Kyza's damage, except she doubles other things he can't.

I am reluctant to give Kysha the Wing in the first place, let alone purely to buff his avoid. It would be far easier to just give him BEXP/Blossom to boost his defense. Plus, you forgot to add in authority stars. He'd actually have 95 avoid without the Wing, which is pretty comfortable combined with his good concrete durability.

It's not to buff his avoid, but to give him offense before Resolve, just Resolve makes it even more prevailant since it would let him double even more things than just a wing. The argument could be made that "the drop lets him kill things he normally wouldn't after Resolve" as you pointed out, I'm merely stating there's a clear trade here. He doesn't start in Resolve, after all. I would like to thank you for reminding me about leadership though cause if he has 95 without the wing, then with the wing he has 108. That means my calcs, he can at neutral bio actually reduce enemy hit to around single digits to the 20s at worst displayed.

However, one thing I would like to ask you. Would you at least see Resolve being a good idea on him on the basis that he can get into Resolve mode without ridiculous circumstances, and we can get more noticeable results out of him for free with it? If so, I have to wonder if we can fit Neph's Wrath on him as well. I forget how much capacity he has, because the site for FE10 doesn't like showing all the information. Or hey, how about Resolve on Titania so that we don't need to give her a wing in the first place, free to give it to someone else? It'd be similar numbers to Kyza's avoid, but could have Oscar's Earth on top of it, and we can give the Wing to someone else.

It's not even Titania and Haar. There are a million better uses for a Speedwing. You seem to rave about Kysha chipping down enemies for a growth unit to finish, but it would be way more efficient to just give the Speedwing to the growth unit in the first place. There are a thousand and one units that want the Wing. Ike if he's screwed, Rolf, Boyd, promoted Soren/Gatrie (for Part 4), Skrimir, Tanith, even Oscar to an extent depending on when he promotes.

All I heard were a screwed Ike (a presumption mind you, as BEXP and his quickcapping stats mean that he would have to be screwed by the gods themselves), a growth unit that only has player phase to get EXP, a unit who's base speed screws him too hard for him to count, 2 untis who's caps doom them and ensure a wing on them would basically only see minimal use in full (one is an overrated character as well as he suffers The Armor Curse), a unit who comes late (and you're telling ME that sitting until 3-4 to use one is too long a wait...), a unit that is actually awful (Tanith), and a unit with limited mobility for 2 chapters where Kyza could actually be useful (3-4 basically is about the ledge which Oscar can't climb, and 3-7 is the river where horses forget to move). Oscar and Kyza are very similar, in that they are very much apples and oranges characters. Oscar doesn't have meter, but Kyza can deal with the terrain that actually happens immediately around his arrival, and both have limtied use anyways.

But I concede. A wing on a unit that at best would be used until their usefulness is dried up seems silly. But I still would like to suggest Resolve and perhaps some other skill if he can fit it on. Only question is that it's between him and Eddie. Eddie needs to be trained, Kyza doesn't. However, Eddie has long lasting use while Kyza slows down eventually (not that he has much a start). If both can fit Wrath/Resolve (I know Eddie can as Wrath is natural on him, AND he can have Cancel on top as well), I suppose it wouldn't be that bad, since Kyza could simply just take Wrath from Neph. Another benefit is that Kyza has more time to put it to use...I think. Basically I just wanna ask your thoughts on Resolve on Kyza, since giving him a Wing seems silly.

PS. Please stop calling him Kysha, or I'mma start calling him Kaiser.

[aku chi]

There's nothing ridiculous about getting Mordecai into Resolve range.

Turn 1 Player Phase: Mordecai moves forward and uses an Olivi Grass, exposing himself to 2-3 units including a unit with a ranged weapon.

Turn 1 Enemy Phase: Those units attack Mordecai, put him into Resolve range, and boost his laguz gauge.

Turn 2 Player Phase: Mordecai has a full gauge. He moves forward and transforms. If his health is dangerously low, he uses an Herb or Vulnerary to get as close to half health as possible.

Unless this is a rout chapter, Mordecai tanking on turn 1 doesn't even cost us anything.

Alternately, we could get him into Resolve range while transformed by exposing him to a couple Mage attacks (or maybe one Fire Mage). Mordecai uses Resolve considerably better than Kyza, because he'll be dealing 16+ extra damage per round of combat! Resolve Kyza doesn't sound like he'd be bad, but he can't compete with Resolve Mordecai and his Speed is borderline, so I'd be more inclined to try to use leveling to get him to double (because leveling will also improve his Attack and durability).

[grandjackal]

There's nothing ridiculous about getting Mordecai into Resolve range.

Turn 1 Player Phase: Mordecai moves forward and uses an Olivi Grass, exposing himself to 2-3 units including a unit with a ranged weapon.

Here inlies the rub. Why are you exposing a character who at this point has god awful enemy phase? Then turn 2, who's to say the enemy is going to attack Mordecai unless he's completely alone, a very rare situation unless they're a ranged unit?

[Silith]

Disregarding the plausibility of Kysha/Kyza getting 3 Blossom levels it would severely inprove his viability in the game.

97.75% HP

64% Str and Def

69.75% Skl

57.75% Spd

that would on average result in 3 hp, +2 in Str,skl,spd and Def. If he ever gets a booster or a good skill (wrath/resolve/whatever else you might think work) He could still be a decent character to use in the Part 4 maps where your resources get spread a lot thinner, especially if you can manage to use him a bit in the chapters between 3-8 and part 4. Granted he won't be wiping the floor with everything in sight, but he'll be of some use.

(Pretty much like Muarim in 4-4)

[Anouleth]

Disregarding the plausibility of Kysha/Kyza getting 3 Blossom levels

Why is it implausible? Kyza's 3 levels of BEXP is not even close to the amount you have by that point: it's about 7000 out of 17000, varying depending on how good you are at keeping green units alive. And sure, that's a significant chunk, but in terms of raw opportunity cost, it's not that expensive. Three levels on Kyza is slightly less than two levels on Titania/Haar, or the same as 2 and a bit levels on Mia. And arguably, Kyza gets a lot more out of it than they do.

[Silith]

I didn't say it was inplausible. I said I was disregarding the plausibility because I didn't have the data of exp gain in those chapters combined with Laguz Leveling rate in my head ready. I just wanted to point out how much gain he would get from 3 blossomed levels. I was trying to help.

Don't hate me.

Love me.

Please?

[Colonel M]

Here inlies the rub. Why are you exposing a character who at this point has god awful enemy phase? Then turn 2, who's to say the enemy is going to attack Mordecai unless he's completely alone, a very rare situation unless they're a ranged unit?

Actually the biggest problem I had with Mordecai was finding a good Enemy Phase to put him through in order to hit Resolve range. I think of the few instances, I found one time in 3-4(?) and maybe 3-7, but that takes quite a while too. Just have him stand in front of one enemy and (usually) they can knock him into Resolve range so long as they are competent (Swordmasters aren't really competent in this example IIRC).

[Anouleth]

I didn't say it was inplausible. I said I was disregarding the plausibility because I didn't have the data of exp gain in those chapters combined with Laguz Leveling rate in my head ready. I just wanted to point out how much gain he would get from 3 blossomed levels. I was trying to help.

Hmm, okay. I was estimating that he gained about 20 exp per chapter, but even if he only gains 10 per chapter, it's still only about 7600 BEXP that he needs.

Also, wrt Mordecai, even getting him attacked untransformed doesn't build his gauge since his 24ATK deals damage to everything except Generals. So he can't transform on turn 2 that way, unless you find a ranged enemy to attack him.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Anouleth

[Colonel M]

Eh, I was more focused on Resolve range instead of gauge, but that is also true. Not many 2 range enemies that don't obliterate Mordecai on Turn 1 Enemy Phase.

[Zanarkin]

Hmm, okay. I was estimating that he gained about 20 exp per chapter, but even if he only gains 10 per chapter, it's still only about 7600 BEXP that he needs.

Also, wrt Mordecai, even getting him attacked untransformed doesn't build his gauge since his 24ATK deals damage to everything except Generals. So he can't transform on turn 2 that way, unless you find a ranged enemy to attack him.

You can just use an olivi grass. I'd find it unlikely that mordy wouldn't miss or get attacked from 2 range at least once...

[RNG Princess]

Kyza is only 4 str points away from Mordecai(its alot of difference in laguz though), if he uses the energy drop and gets a good +1str +1spd he'll be equal to Mordy and will eventually double almost everything. Also due to his durability, Kyza can get into resolve mode transformed (it seems flexible).

Edited October 5, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Zanarkin]

But due to his durability Kyza can die transformed. Meanwhile Mordy can take all hits shot at him transformed after having just a few defence + level ups.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

may i ask if the tier list in the opening post of the topic is the most updated one?

and if not, can i please see the latest one?

[Anouleth]

Eh, I was more focused on Resolve range instead of gauge, but that is also true. Not many 2 range enemies that don't obliterate Mordecai on Turn 1 Enemy Phase.

How so? I guess there's Sages.

You can just use an olivi grass. I'd find it unlikely that mordy wouldn't miss or get attacked from 2 range at least once...

Mordecai is pretty accurate even untransformed. He typically pulls around 70 to 80 hit on enemies.

In addition, 2-range enemies often just don't hang around the start of maps. The only ones I can think of are the Paladins are the start of 3-11.

[I.M. Gei]

may i ask if the tier list in the opening post of the topic is the most updated one?

Yes, it is.

[Florete]

may i ask if the tier list in the opening post of the topic is the most updated one?

and if not, can i please see the latest one?

Speaking of, were there any agreed upon changes that haven't been implemented yet?

[Zanarkin]

Boyd T > Gatrie

and i'd say something like Rhys > Mist but that has been overargued i feel.

[Anouleth]

Well, I think that Kysha should definitely be higher. Maybe over Ilyana? Ilyana's chip is pretty underwhelming even in the DB chapters and her GM chapters are not worth talking about. Kysha takes resources (primarily BEXP but possibly the Energy Drop) but can provide some contributions.

That is, unless people think that Kysha just isn't worth it. I don't think that training Kysha is so inefficient that it's not worthy of consideration by the tier list, personally. But I'd like to see what other people think?

Edited October 5, 2011 by Anouleth

[-Cynthia-]

Perhaps some substantiating of your claim on 2-2 would be nice. I at least bothered to show numbers and reasoning with Kyza's 3-4.

9 Mov, doubles everything (which only Lucia and Nealuchi can claim). Not enough Mt to ORKO non-sages, but only Lucia can reliably ORKO physical enemies on this map anyway (she misses a number of enemy types though). I don't really see where more elaboration is needed, using Lethe helps clear enemies out of the way faster than not using Lethe.

[grandjackal]

But due to his durability Kyza can die transformed. Meanwhile Mordy can take all hits shot at him transformed after having just a few defence + level ups.

On top of being hard to actually hit after Resolve (as I have shown through numbers), he's still 4RKOd generally. I don't think he's being exactly slaughtered at every turn here.

Besides, I think people are starting to see here that getting Mordy to Resolve health in the first place has it's own set of problems.

EDIT: Can anyone verify that Kaizer can fit Wrath on top of Resolve?

Edited October 5, 2011 by Grandkitty

[Anouleth]

Lethe is also dead weight for the first two turns in a chapter that takes 5 turns. If she goes north to do the no-damage trick on the armour, then she's kind of... stuck there. Plus, we would also need to send Mordecai in that direction, since he starts with the Olivi Grass.

But due to his durability Kyza can die transformed. Meanwhile Mordy can take all hits shot at him transformed after having just a few defence + level ups.

Even with his rather good concrete durability, Kysha is also looking at something like 20-30 display hit from enemies after Resolve activates. Mordecai's concrete durability is just ridiculously overkilled. He basically doesn't take damage transformed. Kysha's durability is more than sufficient to survive even at half health. All he worries about is Sages, but so does Mordecai.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Anouleth