OMG it's a tier list

[-Cynthia-]

Kyza's also locked to 1 range, can't switch to weapons for effective attack (Horseslayer is an important part of Sigrun's offence given relative Paladin frequency), has to Grass on some Player Phases, and doesn't have any of Sigrun's flying utility. Dumping BEXP and Energy Drops into Kyza just to try and make him less shitty at combat than Sigrun seems to have more of a cost than it's worth.

I don't see how BEXP slowplaying helps Kyza too much either, 35% chance to proc Spd is pretty unreliable and he's very dependent on it happening.

Edited October 6, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

I have already mentioned these numbers. Kysha takes 99 BEXP initially, then in the 3-7 base, he takes maybe 80EXP (since he gained some CEXP in 3-4), then you do the same in the 3-8 base. The total cost is somewhere in between 7000 and 8000 varying on how much CEXP he gets. That puts him on 26AS, also known as "fine for the rest of Part 3". 34ATK is a little bit below Ulki, so he's a reasonable canditate for a Drop: Ulki's not in urgent need because he has much more reliable Adept proc rates, but he sees more combat in general.

My little question revolves more around the BEXP, because I question the cost of that 99 BEXP. By 3-4, we'll have about a minimum of 8,050 BEXP, some more depending on the random survival rate of laguz in 3-P. To get him to 99 exp, it seems one would need...2772 BEXP. That's nearly a third of our BEXP stock. I'm going to suppose your justification for this is "No one else better to "slowplay"", though apparently I'm not allowed to say that? Explain to me why this pricetag doesn't sound ridiculous.

Now, for Kysha to have 28AS for Part 4, he needs more Blossom. Two more levels, to be accurate. That seems like a lot given how much we gave him already, but it comes after you have access to a huge amount of BEXP from the CRKs and taking that BEXP isn't so bad because it comes just before a huge windfall at the end of Part 3. Moreover, all that CEXP he gains between 3-8, 3-10, and 3-11 (a non-negligible amount) cuts the amount we need to give him. I specify doing this before Part 4 starts, because even though you can give him a Blossom level in 4-2, it means he's stuck with Blossom for the rest of the chapter, and as I've discussed Blossom is bad if you gain good CEXP as Kysha does in Part 4. Kysha almost certainly has S Strike as well; over his six Part 3 chapters, he would only need to enter combat 6 times per chapter when he doubles. That is easily manageable. So at the start of Part 4, he's sitting on 41ATK/28AS... which is pretty good, all things considered. He can go to the desert, or to 4-2 as he pleases: he can feasibly reach 30AS for 4-3. But his attack is still an issue. 41ATK doesn't 2HKO much. Sadly he's still in the position of only ORKOing Sages and Bishops reliably. A Drop fixes that to some extent but even with the Drop he's short on Halberdiers and Generals. Alternatively, you could try Adept, since his speed isn't so bad and he perpetually 3HKOes. Now that I consider it, Resolve isn't such a bad idea just to buff his proc rate with Adept. I found that I wasn't really using Resolve much myself in Part 4 and just using it as an easy durability fix for frailer units.

Those lategame issues make me question this spending more, which was the entire issue with Kyza to begin with, and that with Resolve, he's not much less silly than giving it to Sigrun, which you yourself said was retarded. You want a Drop on top of this, and apparently it's not that good still in lategame?

So really, Kysha's speed is pretty fixable with Blossom and BEXP, but his strength remains an issue. He's perpetually short of ORKOing. The question is, is that so much worse than certain low tier units? Makalov is never reliably going to 2HKO and has movement issues. He's much harder to dig out of his hole since it's just as expensive to BEXP him, you have to do it for more levels, and you can't even Blossom slowplay. Sigrun makes Kysha's strength and speed look good. She is not going to double in 4-3 full stop. Even with a max mt silver forge she struggles to match Kysha's attack. And her durability is miles behind Kysha. She also lacks the option of switching to Hawk Army.

The issue here is why should we take your BEXP Blossom stuff seriously, considering the steep cost? I almost wanna say just give the Drop to Lethe, and she does what he can do without needing Resolve or a Wing or BEXP silliness to do what he does, and with the BEXP Blossom silliness, I could probably get more mileage out of her, not to mention her time in part 2 lets her have a lead in getting to S strike sooner, not to mention getting to it quicker still thanks to doubling more consistantly. That 24 base is too fancy. You could say that "Lethe falls out part 4", but it doesn't seem that stellar an argument for Kyza, since apparently he doesn't seem to be doing as well himself.

EDIT 1: Well, Kyza's a rare topic. Kinda was more exciting. Sorry Inc0gnito.

EDIT 2: Key colonel, I thought it was YOU who was banned from saying meat(y).

Edited October 6, 2011 by Grandkitty

[Anouleth]

My little question revolves more around the BEXP, because I question the cost of that 99 BEXP. By 3-4, we'll have about a minimum of 8,050 BEXP, some more depending on the random survival rate of laguz in 3-P. To get him to 99 exp, it seems one would need...2772 BEXP. That's nearly a third of our BEXP stock. I'm going to suppose your justification for this is "No one else better to "slowplay"", though apparently I'm not allowed to say that? Explain to me why this pricetag doesn't sound ridiculous.

Because it isn't. I don't think it's ridiculous. What else are you going to do with it, give Haar 2/3rds of a level? I'm not going to shrink away from pushing this just because it has a big 4 digit number attached.

Those lategame issues make me question this spending more, which was the entire issue with Kyza to begin with, and that with Resolve, he's not much less silly than giving it to Sigrun, which you yourself said was retarded. You want a Drop on top of this, and apparently it's not that good still in lategame?

Sigrun is not going to fight. I don't really get how with a Drop ORKOing everything but tougher Halberdiers (and Halberdiers can be goddamn ridiculous in 4-3) and Generals is "not that good", because there are characters way higher than Kysha that do worse. You think Aran or Soren or Lucia or Calill or Ranulf is going to ORKO Halbs? If you poured the same amount of BEXP into Aran as I did into Kysha, Aran would still need to pull like 20/20/7 to double 4-3 Halbs.

The issue here is why should we take your BEXP Blossom stuff seriously, considering the steep cost? I almost wanna say just give the Drop to Lethe, and she does what he can do without needing Resolve or a Wing or BEXP silliness to do what he does, and with the BEXP Blossom silliness, I could probably get more mileage out of her, not to mention her time in part 2 lets her have a lead in getting to S strike sooner, not to mention getting to it quicker still thanks to doubling more consistantly. That 24 base is too fancy. You could say that "Lethe falls out part 4", but it doesn't seem that stellar an argument for Kyza, since apparently he doesn't seem to be doing as well himself.

The question is, why should we do all that with Lethe to get a weaker character? You balk at the cost for Kysha, but then you turn around and try to push for even more fucking stuff for Lethe. Lethe is three levels higher than Kysha. Thus, her BEXP costs about 450 more per level. Lethe has a lower strength base and a lower growth. When it comes time to take off the training wheels, Lethe gains CEXP more slowly. Lethe has a shittier gauge. Lethe has less durability. All this for +1 speed base and some speed growth, when clearly Kysha's speed is not what's holding him back. Oh, and let's give her the Drop too! Never mind that you spend the last page bitching at me for giving it to Kysha.

[RNG Princess]

Kyza's base str isn't glorious thats why I asked if he could take the drop so even if she equals him she'll still be inferior because of cat gauge and less durability. If resources can't be given to characters why is Nephenee so high? She pretty much needs BEXP doesn't she? and what about Rolf, Tanith?

I know he doesn't have free chapters and thats why I think some characters above him ^^' (Lethe for example)

[Anouleth]

Kyza's base str isn't glorious thats why I asked if he could take the drop so even if she equals him she'll still be inferior because of cat gauge and less durability. If resources can't be given to characters why is Nephenee so high? She pretty much needs BEXP doesn't she? and what about Rolf, Tanith?

I know he doesn't have free chapters and thats why I think some characters above him ^^' (Lethe for example)

Well, it is a pretty hefty amount of BEXP. And at the end of the day, he is still a laguz with associated laguz problems.

[grandjackal]

Because it isn't. I don't think it's ridiculous. What else are you going to do with it, give Haar 2/3rds of a level? I'm not going to shrink away from pushing this just because it has a big 4 digit number attached.

Slowplay other better characters? Not pretend that Haar's the only character in the game?

Sigrun is not going to fight. I don't really get how with a Drop ORKOing everything but tougher Halberdiers (and Halberdiers can be goddamn ridiculous in 4-3) and Generals is "not that good", because there are characters way higher than Kysha that do worse. You think Aran or Soren or Lucia or Calill or Ranulf is going to ORKO Halbs? If you poured the same amount of BEXP into Aran as I did into Kysha, Aran would still need to pull like 20/20/7 to double 4-3 Halbs.

Two of those characters you named are awful, and Ranulf..Ranulf...Huh. He DOESN'T ORKO the typical things (though he's got Swordmasters). Well...Why not just give the Drop to Ranulf then?

The question is, why should we do all that with Lethe to get a weaker character? You balk at the cost for Kysha, but then you turn around and try to push for even more fucking stuff for Lethe. Lethe is three levels higher than Kysha. Thus, her BEXP costs about 450 more per level. Lethe has a lower strength base and a lower growth. When it comes time to take off the training wheels, Lethe gains CEXP more slowly. Lethe has a shittier gauge. Lethe has less durability. All this for +1 speed base and some speed growth, when clearly Kysha's speed is not what's holding him back. Oh, and let's give her the Drop too! Never mind that you spend the last page bitching at me for giving it to Kysha.

I don't thin you know how apples and oranges Kyza and Lethe is. Kyza can get the extra mt, but it's useless considering the speed he lacks to double the common problem. Lethe as the speed (before Resolve) and has part 2, so she's closer to S rank. With the Drop making her Kyza with the speed to actually double things without Resolve, she'll get mileage out of it sooner than Kyza will. The important point here is that this is done without the price of a BEXP tag OR Resolve on it. But she cannot do this without the Drops. Both are essentially equally dependent on certain things. I'm merely having trouble deciding the price matters here.

But I will give you this. I'm not certain on my own stances here, you're starting to convince me. I'm just not sure what's left that has me questioning things anymore.

[Silith]

Doesn't Lethe have only 1 speed (2 transformed) more then Kysha? She might have 15% more growth in it but she grows like a slug partially thanks to her high level and sucky transform gauge.

If she's entitled say 3 levels Kysha could easily get 5 with the same amount of Bexp/CEXP. 175 usually is higher then 150. Not to mention Kysha's superior survivability against anything not a mage. I like to assume we don't want our laguz facing much 2-range combat on enemy phase so the resistance shouldn't be th most influencial stat.

[Bluedoom]

I'm gonna divert from the Kyza debate. Mainly cause I find using the laguz kinda pointless. You've got the hawks and Ranulf who're way better than Lethe and Kyza if you wanna use laguz.

Also, perhaps Shinon should go up. Now I know he can't do counter attack damage... or it only seems like it.

First off, he has provoke. Now one could just strip him off of this skill and give it to someone like Gatrie: Except he has movement problems and generals are a pain to use. Titania CAN use provoke well, but she's at the top of high, so she is better than Shinon. Oscar can use it too, but he's not doing much with it since he's not very durable, well, as durable as Shinon anyways. So I'd rather assume that Shinon is the owner of provoke. And hey, it doesn't use up capacity as well.

Him having provoke basically means he's a guard to weaker units or weakened units. He's pretty good at tanking, base 20 defence is really close to Gatrie's defence, and that's saying something. Not doing CA damage can be solved with the Crossbow you get in 3-P. Rolf and Boyd are the only other users, but Rolf can't use it well and Boyd's better off using his Axes.

With Provoke, its more likely he'll be attracting ranged attackers too, so he IS doing CA damage, albeit not regularly.With speed that will eventually cap, he is consitently doubling units(26 spd) except swordmaster throughout part three, and it'd only be reasonable if he promotes sometime in 3-10 or 3-11 as he has a high starting level and many chapters to level up. Ranged attacking is valuable and he does it most efficiently- even Titania can't take too many hits or double at range as efficiently( she has worse HP than him, same def and res and is 3 lvls higher.) Oscar is not doing any better than Shinon, does MUCH less damage than him at the start. He isn't doubling like Shinon can, and suffers Paladin caps.

Nephenee needs bonus EXP to do better, unless we're talking about transfers,and even then, comes severely underlevelled compared to the GMs. In an efficient run, she'll probably be level 3 or 4, and she's still inferior in terms of offense. She is most likely to still have lesser strength than Shinon when she arrives, and both cap Speed regardless. She also does not have a great base defence, although I've not seen her transfer stats. She DOES have the tenedency to reach Shinon's base defence, so I won't say she's totally inferior to Shinon. She still has the direct combat advabtage over Shinon, but he's more easier to use and starts with great base stats.

Nevertheless, he's going to be the one who does more damage than a lot of the GMs. With a killer bow, he's doing much better than Nephenee and Oscar. He's probably not beating Titania though. Constant criticals is something you can expect from Shinon, and the Killer bow comes quite early, plus you can buy another in Part 2 and ferry it over to the GMs with Brom, Nephenee, Haar or Heather. Its not like Oscar would do any better with a killer lance, and Nephenee may or may not want the killer lance due to strength issues.

I'm unsure about how better he is than Jill, however. With what incognit0 says, Jill can just be as useful to the DB as Shinon is to the GM. I think she should be higher than Nolan as she has flight and Canto. With transfers, she's doing better than Nolan since Nolan is not exactly a safe unit to use in terms of growths. Most painful part would be if his strength is screwed up. Jill has the same problem, but at least she has flight and higher resistance and speed growths over Nolan's superior skill and HP growth. But then Nolan has many chapters over Jill, where he's necessary.

The thing is, though, that both Nolan and Jill have the chance of being screwed in stats, if they some how reach Shinon's level at the end of 3-6. Shinon is superior due to bases, but in the end it comes to whether potential units with a potential to have bad stats as well are better than a unit with consistent bases and growths. If we are talking about chapters where units are forced and their contributions, Nolan has 3 such chapter while Shinon has two. Out of the three chapters, the last one, 1-3, is the one where he is absolutely necessary to even proceed, along with Sothe and Ilyana. In those 3 chapters, the whole DB is necessary, actually. In Shinon's case, he isn't necessary, but makes it easier to finish those chapters faster, plus in 3-P he has ballista utility. There, he's not taking up space for frontline units like Titania and Ike in 3-P and stil doing chip damage.

I tink Shinon should go above Oscar, Nolan and Nephenee, but stay below Jill. Or go above ill, Oscar and Nephenee and stay below Nolan. Jill and Nolan are almost equal imo, and have potential to go bad, but Jill has slightly safer growths, I guess.

[Shadow Mir]

WRT Shinon: Having either no enemy phase of a sorry enemy phase is not exactly ideal... And I wouldn't bank on critical hits in RD, ever. On that note, is it really worth risking doing 4 less damage if you opt to use the Killer Bow and neither attack crits (assuming doubling)? I say it isn't worth it.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[grandjackal]

Doesn't Lethe have only 1 speed (2 transformed) more then Kysha? She might have 15% more growth in it but she grows like a slug partially thanks to her high level and sucky transform gauge.

That 24 AS is the difference between doubling and not doubling. All Kyza has is mages and generals, all Lethe's missing is Swordmasters. Off the bat, her offense is technically better.

The gauge is a fair objection.

If she's entitled say 3 levels Kysha could easily get 5 with the same amount of Bexp/CEXP. 175 usually is higher then 150. Not to mention Kysha's superior survivability against anything not a mage. I like to assume we don't want our laguz facing much 2-range combat on enemy phase so the resistance shouldn't be th most influencial stat.

Kyza doesn't get those 5 levels instantly. Considering by Anouleth's words that Kyza's lategame isn't that impressive anyways, it just shows that any advantage he has over Lethe only comes in the near future, and exists for a brief period before both become trash regardless. It's the problem with being a growth unit. My argument isn't how many levels Lethe can get in comparison to Kyza, my argument is she doesn't really need EXP to be good for what little time she has.

...It's been a while, can't you slam BEXP in part 2? Or was that no, just like how you couldn't reallocate skills? If you can, by 2-F, you have a total of 5,250 BEXP to spare, sparing the 800 BEXP from leaving volunteers survive in 2-1, and how many more depending on how many enemies you keep alive in 2-3 (of which can be a huge boost considering it's 100 a unit and thre's a grand total of 50). Let's see who we have to spend it on.

Elincia: 4,200 for a level, leaving a mere 1,050 left to spare, doesn't show up until way later. Str, Spd and Lck are her highest growths, but it won't serve to change anything about her performance in the now.

Marcia: Isn't in the base to be given any.

Nealuchi: For real?

Haar: Could argue he doesn't need it, but if oyu wanna get him to 99 exp, costs just as much as Lethe (3200 gets a full level as a reference). Depending on how many we let live a mere 13 units live in chapter 2-3, we can afford 1 for both.

Brom: No

Neph: 2,200 for a level, so a full 3 levels is possible for her.

Heather: Not happening.

Mordecai: 2,500, but his highest growths by a good margin are HP, Lck and Def, things he's already good at. It doesn't fix his weaknesses.

Calill: 2,700, but is a mage with poor availability with poor base stats considerng such.

So we got basically Haar and Neph. Neph could do with some help if you plan to use her, as hte magic number is 23-24 for when she returns in part 3. Her leveling speed, some BEXP padding, couldn't hurt. But there could still be plenty of wiggle room depending on how much you left alive in 2-3. I could pump a bit Lethe's way off the Cremians if I wished. I mean what, the failure calvalry gonna bitch about it?

Bit of a weak argument sure, more time and a seperate BEXP pool to leech off of helps when it comes to these pricetags, if we REALLY want to actually bother pumping BEXP into Lethe.

[Silith]

That 24 AS is the difference between doubling and not doubling. All Kyza has is mages and generals, all Lethe's missing is Swordmasters. Off the bat, her offense is technically better.

But with the Blossomed 99 Exp we discussed before Kyza has a 57.75% chance to reach that 24 speed too. Not saying that would instantly make up for it be he would be better is all non enemy mage factors then Lethe at that point, unless she has managed to get 2 speed by then (which could happen with a level in part 2 and a blossomed level (using the same resources I used for Kyzha) with a 37.5% chance.) Resolve was another issue mentioned which would increase them to 33 and 36 AS resulting in them both doubling everyting including the Boss and those 24AS Swordmasters.

So we got basically Haar and Neph. Neph could do with some help if you plan to use her, as hte magic number is 23-24 for when she returns in part 3. Her leveling speed, some BEXP padding, couldn't hurt. But there could still be plenty of wiggle room depending on how much you left alive in 2-3. I could pump a bit Lethe's way off the Cremians if I wished. I mean what, the failure calvalry gonna bitch about it?

Bit of a weak argument sure, more time and a seperate BEXP pool to leech off of helps when it comes to these pricetags, if we REALLY want to actually bother pumping BEXP into Lethe.

I didn't quote the whole part but wouldn't Lethe have the same issues with a Bexp Level as Mord would being HP, Spd and Lck being her highest growths. I know a BEXP level on Lethe should be pretty efficient seeing as she only misses out on stats 1 out of 20 times but I don't see a bexp level increasing her combat all that much. As I mentioned earlier she needs 2 Speed in 3-4 to be really more efficient speedwise and the stat she actually wants is more Str Which Kyzha wins out on from the bat and he also grows faster and he has more growth. (and cheaper when BexP is concidered.)

[Zanarkin]

It's not about being "realistic". I don't care what a "real" player does. But the opportunity cost of that BEXP isn't overwhelming. It's what, two levels for Titania or Haar? Obviously, it has a cost, but it's not a large one.

Then what is the purpose of a tier list? I mean i get not comparing giving him BEXP to giving bexp to haar. But i mean any other possible low tier units. I mean kyza isn't the only unit we are ever using. And he isn't going to get everything he wants.

[Anouleth]

Kyza doesn't get those 5 levels instantly. Considering by Anouleth's words that Kyza's lategame isn't that impressive anyways, it just shows that any advantage he has over Lethe only comes in the near future, and exists for a brief period before both become trash regardless. It's the problem with being a growth unit. My argument isn't how many levels Lethe can get in comparison to Kyza, my argument is she doesn't really need EXP to be good for what little time she has.

But she's not good, any more than Kysha ever is. She ORKOes Sages and Bishops and that's it. Sounds like Kysha before the Drop.

Unless you're admitting that Kysha is good.

...It's been a while, can't you slam BEXP in part 2? Or was that no, just like how you couldn't reallocate skills? If you can, by 2-F, you have a total of 5,250 BEXP to spare, sparing the 800 BEXP from leaving volunteers survive in 2-1, and how many more depending on how many enemies you keep alive in 2-3 (of which can be a huge boost considering it's 100 a unit and thre's a grand total of 50). Let's see who we have to spend it on.

I usually keep about 40 of them alive, plus a few volunteers.

But yes, you can assign BEXP. It's funny in Normal Mode because you have enough to promote Haar or Nephenee.

I don't thin you know how apples and oranges Kyza and Lethe is. Kyza can get the extra mt, but it's useless considering the speed he lacks to double the common problem.

Lethe as the speed (before Resolve) and has part 2, so she's closer to S rank. With the Drop making her Kyza with the speed to actually double things without Resolve, she'll get mileage out of it sooner than Kyza will. The important point here is that this is done without the price of a BEXP tag OR Resolve on it. But she cannot do this without the Drops. Both are essentially equally dependent on certain things. I'm merely having trouble deciding the price matters here.

But I will give you this. I'm not certain on my own stances here, you're starting to convince me. I'm just not sure what's left that has me questioning things anymore.

Pretty sure that that BEXP is cheaper than the Drop. If I were to give that BEXP to another character, would the benefits be equal to +2ATK? Probably not. Maybe after the second level of BEXP, but by that point Kysha is clearly better, Drop or no Drop. And really, the "price" is irrelevant. Is it a good idea to give one of our shitty Laguz a Drop Y/N? If Y, we do it, regardless of the price.

And yeah, Kysha is in the position of "sucky growth unit that doesn't grow into ORKOing", but there are many characters above him that are in the same position. Aran does not ORKO. Soren does not ORKO. Rolf might ORKO one enemy per turn. Will Danved ORKO? Unlikely. A 14/1 Danved has 21STR, or 39ATK with a forge. He needs the Drop just to match Kysha's attack and nothing will let him match his speed or durability.

[Silith]

Assuming Lethe is used in parts 2-2 and 2-E. In 2-2 Bexp is pretty bad for Lethe and she transforms on turn 2 (unless you want to use a stone) So let's say she in a very optimistic mood gets 12 Cexp. We then give her 87 Bexp to get to 99/100 with a cost of (((50 * 31.5) + 50 )*2 )*0.87=2827.5 (Or just 2828). Then in 2-E we get her more Cexp as much as wel can in a normal 3-turn completion with maximum rewards (both the drop and the shield for further calc sake I assume the same in Kyzha calcs.) She should get no more then 6 Cexp from this meaning she'll level and get to 5/100. The stats of importance here are Str and Spd which are on a 35% and a 45% growth.

At chapter 3-4 we'll again give her Bexp to 99/100 which is (((50 * 33) + 50 )*2 )*0.94= 3196 Bexp (6024 total). A blossomed Lethe will then get 57.75% Str chance and a 75% Speed chance on her levelup after first combat in 3-4.

She has 20.21% of getting 2 Str putting her 2 Mt over base Kyzha.

She has 52.33% chance of getting 1 Str which put her equal to base Kyzha.

She has 27.46% chance of getting no Str which puts her 2 Mt below Kyzha.

She has a 37.5% chance of getting 2 Speed Which is enough to double the Swordmasters.

She has a 62.5% chance of not getting both speed ups.

Kysha starts with no previously exp gain in 3-4 so he needs 99 Bexp right off the bat which results in a cost of (((50 * 27) + 50 )*2 )*0.99 = 2772 Bexp. A Blossomed levelup will get him:

64% Chance of getting 1 Point in Str getting him equal in Mt to a +2 Lethe.

36% chance to not get a str putting him equal to a +1 Lethe.

He has a 57.75% Chance to getting a Speed which will put him in the same efficiency for 3-4 as a Normal Lethe.

He has 42.25% chance of not getting speed resulting in him being below Lethe in usefullness.

Let's start off with speed. There is a 42.25% chance that Lethe will be more efficient regardless of what happens thanks to her 24 AS. While this seems a positive point for Kyzha you also gotta take the account of Lethe being able to get 2Spd more in the meantime. Multiplying 57.75% and 37.5% results in a 21.65% chance that Lethe will be more efficient even when Kyzha gets that speed for a total chance of 63.90% chance of Lethe being more efficient Speedwise.

The most abundant enemies in 3-4 are:

Warriors with 20AS and 16 Def

Halbediers with 20AS and 19 Def

Swordmasters with 24AS and 16 Def

Generals with 18AS and 24Def

In order.

Warriors:

Lethe has:

20.21% chance of dealing 16x2=32 damage to the warriors.

52.32% chance of dealing 14x2=28 damage to the warriors.

27.46% chance of dealing 12x2=24 damage to the warriors.

32*0.2021+28*0.5233+24*0.2746= 27.71 damage average.

Kyzha has:

36.96% chance of dealing 16x2=32 damage.

27.04% chance of dealing 16x1=16 damage.

20.79% chance of dealing 14x2=28 damage.

15.21% chance of dealing 14x1=14 damage.

32*0.3696+16*0.2704+28*0.2079+14*0.1521= 24.10 damage average.

Lethe wins by 3.61 damage.

Halbediers:

Lethe has:

20.21% chance of dealing 13x2=26 damage.

52.32% chance of dealing 11x2=22 damage.

27.46% chance of dealing 09x2=18 damage.

26*0.2021+22*0.5233+18*0.2746= 21.71 damage.

Kysha has:

36.96% chance of dealing 13x2=26 damage.

27.04% chance of dealing 13x1=13 damage.

20.79% chance of dealing 11x2=22 damage.

15.21% chance of dealing 11x1=11 damage.

26*0.3696+13*0.2704+22*0.2079+11*0.1521= 19.37 damage.

Lethe wins by 2.34 Damage.

Swordmasters:

Lethe has:

07.58% chance of doing 16x2=32 damage.

19.62% chance of doing 14x2=28 damage.

10.30% chance of doing 12x2=24 damage.

12.63% chance of doing 16x1=16 damage.

32.70% chance of doing 14x1=14 damage.

17.16% chance of doing 12x1=12 damage.

32*0.0758+28*0.1962+24*0.1030+16*0.1263+14*0.3270+12*0.1716= 19.05 damage.

Kyzha has:

64% chance of dealing 16 damage.

36% chance of dealing 14 damage.

16*0.64+14*0.36= 15.28 damage.

Lethe wins by 3.77 damage.

Generals:

Lethe has:

20.21% chance of dealing 09x2=18 damage.

52.32% chance of dealing 07x2=14 damage.

27.46% chance of dealing 05x2=10 damage.

18* 0.2021+14*0.5232+10*0.2746= 13.71 damage.

Kyzha has:

64% chance of dealing 09x2=18 damage.

36% chance of dealing 07x2=14 damage.

18*0.64+14*0.36= 16.56.

Kyzha wins by 2.85 damage.

In the categories mentioned we have:

5Warriors, 5Halbediers, 3Swordmasters, 3 generals.

(5*3.61+5*2.34+3*3.77-3*2.85)/16= 2.03 damage on average in favor of Lethe.

Though one could argue that the 3252 Bexp pumped more in Lethe could also go the Kyzha though you will have less Bexp that way in early part 3 and then get it back when the Cavalry joins. This would give Kyzha one more level without Blossom resulting in ~ 38.2% chance of another Str and ~33.5% chance of getting another speed which would pull him closer in favor or maybe overtake Lethe. I kinda don't want to calculate that whole set right now. Maybe after a glass of orange juice which I will fetch myself right now.

[aku chi]

Kyza has a 2 Mt weapon advantage over Lethe, so she needs two points of Str just to match his Atk.

[Anouleth]

3-4 is not the only chapter in the game. Kysha can take that BEXP in 3-7 or 3-8.

[Silith]

I already addes the +4 Mt he has by default (1x2 form his str adn +2 from his claw.

Now here are more calculations.

Obviously another speed on Kysha will not help him much here just like Lethe needed +2 Speed he would need +3. This luckily cuts down my calculations severely. I added a normal Bexp level without Blossom utility. his 3.15 growth overall is now a flat 3.00. Taking this into calulations.

He now has:

24.44% chance of getting +2 Str putting him +6 MT over base Lethe.

53.30% chance of getting +1 Str putting him equal to a +2 Lethe.

22.25% Chance of gettign no Str putting him equal to a +1 Str.

71.90% chance of having gotten at least +1 Speed

28.10% Chance of not having gotten +1 Speed

Against warriors.

17.57% of dealing 18x2=36 damage.

38.32% of dealing 16x2=32 damage.

16.00% of dealing 14x2=28 damage.

06.87% of dealing 18x1=18 damage.

14.98% of dealing 16x1=16 damage.

06.25% of dealing 14x1=14 damage.

36*0.1757+32*0.3832+28*0.16+18*0.0687+16*0.1498+14*0.0625= 27.58 damage.

Lethe still wins by 0.13 damage.

Against Halbediers.

17.57% of dealing 15x2=30 damage.

38.32% of dealing 13x2=26 damage.

16.00% of dealing 11x2=22 damage.

06.87% of dealing 15x1=15 damage.

14.98% of dealing 13x1=13 damage.

06.25% of dealing 11x1=11 damage.

30*0.1757+26*0.3832+22*0.16+15*0.0687+13*0.1498+11*0.0625= 22.41 damage

Kyzha now wins by 0.71 damage.

Swordmasters.

24.44% of dealing 18 damage.

53.30% of dealing 16 damage.

22.25% of dealing 14 damage.

18*0.244+16*0.533+14*0.2225= 16.04 damage.

Lethe wins by 3.01 Damage.

Generals:

24.44% chance of dealing 11*2=22 damage.

53.30% chance of dealing 09*2=18 damage.

22.25% chance of dealing 07*2=14 damage.

22*0.2444+18*0.533+14*0.2225= 18.09 damage.

Kyzha wins by 4.38 damage.

5*0.13-5*0.71+3*3.01-3*4.38= .-7.01

So Kyzha now wins by 7.01 damage.

Now I never took the 2 laguz's survivability in account which Kyzha wins at and he also has a better transformation gauge. The only thing Lethe still has is her Strike buildup in Part 2. If she ever reaches S-strike she'll win easily.

[Anouleth]

Why would you ever give Kysha a normal BEXP level? Kysha has plenty of chapters in which to slowplay, and BEXPing him raw is just a complete waste. Okay, maybe he's slightly worse in 3-4, but who cares? Overall, he's better than Lethe there almost solely due to having less transformation issues (transforms on turn 2 instead of 3 and his gauge decreases slower).

Edited October 6, 2011 by Anouleth

[aku chi]

If [Lethe] ever reaches S-strike she'll win easily.

Not really. A 2-4 transformed Str lead for Kyza is realistic if both are given the same resources. S-Strike Lethe will just match A-Strike Kyza's Atk. And then Kyza reaches S-Strike not soon after to regain his Atk advantage. While Lethe has part 2 and slightly more doubling to develop S-Strike faster, Kyza has a better gauge (more player phases) and better durability to develop Strike rank advantages.

[Silith]

I gave it to him to get as close to Lethe's Bexp spendature in my calculations. I can naturally assume you won't do this and instead will just give him a blossom level in 3-7 and 3-8. His stats will grow much better. I'll do the calculations needed for chapter 3-7 and 3-8 later today. I gotta get cooking now. (Europe)

[grandjackal]

Silith...Damn. I thought I was obsessed with numbers, but you have taken it to a level where 'm pretty sure even Narga would be lie "Daaamn, calm down". However, I suppose those numbers speak for themselves, good work.

Not really. A 2-4 transformed Str lead for Kyza is realistic if both are given the same resources. S-Strike Lethe will just match A-Strike Kyza's Atk. And then Kyza reaches S-Strike not soon after to regain his Atk advantage. While Lethe has part 2 and slightly more doubling to develop S-Strike faster, Kyza has a better gauge (more player phases) and better durability to develop Strike rank advantages.

Ignoring 2-2, 2-4, and the fact her 24 AS lets her double more enemies when it comes to "Kyza soon after gets S strie" as if he's right on her tail...

Basically the issue is that they are seperate but same in some ways. Lethe wants a drop, Kyza wishes he had just 1 more point of speed. Giving one something in some way equates them to one another outside of Tiger Gauge being better, while Lethe has more time to gain S strike and has a seperate BEXP pool to nab from. I just don't like it when people cut it simple. Loving how Silith and Anouleth are handling it.

But she's not good, any more than Kysha ever is. She ORKOes Sages and Bishops and that's it. Sounds like Kysha before the Drop.

Unless you're admitting that Kysha is good.

Kyza was not doing significant damage to Warriors/Halbs/anythinh with the typical 20 AS, on account of the fact he can't double them, and Lethe could on TOP of killing magi due to drop, while it changes nothing on Kya agian due to subpar speed.

Or did you conveniently forget Lethe has 24 base AS?

I usually keep about 40 of them alive, plus a few volunteers.

But yes, you can assign BEXP. It's funny in Normal Mode because you have enough to promote Haar or Nephenee.

That's still 4,400 BEXP, basically nearly 10K BEXP we got to work with at 2-E. Could give Lethe a good injection and still have plenty of BEXP to throw around.

Seems we got more BEXP than we typically thought.

Pretty sure that that BEXP is cheaper than the Drop. If I were to give that BEXP to another character, would the benefits be equal to +2ATK? Probably not. Maybe after the second level of BEXP, but by that point Kysha is clearly better, Drop or no Drop. And really, the "price" is irrelevant. Is it a good idea to give one of our shitty Laguz a Drop Y/N? If Y, we do it, regardless of the price.

Well the argument I'm merely pointing out is that the same argument could be made about BEXP. Is it a good idea to give a shitty laguz BEXP? I can see Dropshaving an obvious price,but why should I pump up Kyza over some other units? What's making him start to seem so special that BEXP on him is a good idea?

Regardless, I'm starting to lean a bit more towards Kyza...

[Anouleth]

Ignoring 2-2, 2-4, and the fact her 24 AS lets her double more enemies when it comes to "Kyza soon after gets S strie" as if he's right on her tail...

Why shouldn't he be? Lethe has like, three transformed turns in 2-2 and the same in 2-E. That's what, 6 rounds of combat? Seems like Kysha is right on her tail =3

Basically the issue is that they are seperate but same in some ways. Lethe wants a drop, Kyza wishes he had just 1 more point of speed. Giving one something in some way equates them to one another outside of Tiger Gauge being better, while Lethe has more time to gain S strike and has a seperate BEXP pool to nab from. I just don't like it when people cut it simple. Loving how Silith and Anouleth are handling it.

Kysha does not wish he had one more point of speed, as I have already shown. Do I need to copy paste my entire Kysha analysis to remind you? Kysha wishes he had more strength.

Kyza was not doing significant damage to Warriors/Halbs/anythinh with the typical 20 AS, on account of the fact he can't double them, and Lethe could on TOP of killing magi due to drop, while it changes nothing on Kya agian due to subpar speed.

Or did you conveniently forget Lethe has 24 base AS?

And as I showed in that huge post I wrote up, Kysha is consistently doubling after 3-4 using Blossom. And then you said "we did all that and Kysha is still not that good in Part 4". So why is Lethe good when she is 1RKOing only frail Sages and nothing else, but Kysha isn't?

That's still 4,400 BEXP, basically nearly 10K BEXP we got to work with at 2-E. Could give Lethe a good injection and still have plenty of BEXP to throw around.

Seems we got more BEXP than we typically thought.

This is not a surprise to me. I threw BEXP in all sorts of stupid directions in my playthrough and got away with it.

Well the argument I'm merely pointing out is that the same argument could be made about BEXP. Is it a good idea to give a shitty laguz BEXP? I can see Dropshaving an obvious price,but why should I pump up Kyza over some other units? What's making him start to seem so special that BEXP on him is a good idea?

Regardless, I'm starting to lean a bit more towards Kyza...

I don't think that I've ever claimed that Kysha is "special". But certainly, the tier list seems to give serious weight to the possibility of training Soren, or Rolf, or Calill, so why not Kysha who is in a similar position?

And really, this came up because of the idea of giving units free deployment. I guess that's not really applicable to Kysha, since you're never short on deployment slots, but it's as good a time as any to throw the idea of seriously training him around. I don't think it's a terrible idea to Blossom slowplay Kysha anyway. Is having a high move unit that can 2RKO around really so much worse than having 1 or 2 extra points on one of your other characters?

[-Cynthia-]

I actually find BEXP pretty contested in Part 3, with most of the early BEXP going to Titania (for early promo) and Haar (to proc more Spd hopefully). Later BEXP tends to go to units like Shinon (who could get +2 Atk from BEXP once stats start capping) or Mia, since there's usually not enough CEXP to get them to promote naturally by Part 4 in an efficient playthrough.

[Silith]

Teh wall of text.

Okay let's take a bigger picture. Derp.

We do not give Kyzha that one Bexp level so we can now assume Lethe wins over Kyzha by 2.03 damage in chapter 3-4.

Let's look at this all the way to chapter 3-11.

Chapter 3-4 lasts 6 turns which is a nice number before the Wyvern's arrive. Kysha can transform on turn 2 and Lethe has to wait till turn 3. I'm gonna say that thanks to Blossom Kysha is gonna get 10 Exp at best and Lethe only 7. This puts them at 9/100 and 6/100 respectively.

At chapter 3-7 to get them to 99/100 again we need.

Lethe:

(((50 * 34.5) + 50 )*2 )*0.93= 3302 Bexp (total of 9326 now)

3-7 always lasts 11 turns in which she generally transforms at turn 3. (Not high priority on Reyson) Let's say she gets 18 exp here which is high considering her high level and the blossom she's still wearing. When we try to 99/100 her again at 3-8 she'll require

(((50 * 36) + 50 )*2 )*0.82=3034 Bexp (total of 12360 (I won't get her any more then that I swear.))

In 3-8, 3-10 and 3-11 together she probably won't get another level even if I do 3-10 and 3-11 without Blossom.

Kyzha:

(((50 * 28.5) + 50 )*2 )*0.90= 2655 (5427 now)

I'll say he gets a bit more exp in 3-7 putting him at 20/100 at the end of the chapter.

(((50 * 30) + 50 )*2 )*0.79= 2449 (7876 now)

He's far behind Lethe so he can do it again in 3-11 when the Crimean's Bexp joins. Lethe cannot do that since she has already eaten part of the Crimean Bexp. In 3-8 which lasts 5-6 turns and 3-10 which lasts 5 turns Kyzha will get 16 exp putting him again at 15/100

(((50 * 31.5) + 50 )*2 )*0.84= 2730 (10606 bexp) Still a cost of 1754 less.

Chapter 3-7

Lethe will by now have had 1 normal and 2 Blossom levels-ups. She now has.

25.31% chance of +3 Speed.

47.81% chance of +2 speed.

23.44% chance of +1 Speed.

03.44% chance of +0 Speed.

11.67% chance of +3 Strength.

38.76% chance of +2 Strength.

37.97% chance of +1 Strength.

11.60% chance of +0 Strength.

Kyzha will have 2 Blossomed level-ups. He now has:

33.35% chance of +2 Speed

48.80% chance of +1 Speed.

17.96% chance of +0 Speed.

40.96% chance of +2 Strength.

46.08% chance of +1 Strength.

12.96% chance of +0 Strength.

Halbediers have 20 AS and 19 Def.

Swordmaster have 24 AS and 16 def.

Sages have 18 AS and 12 Def

Dragonmasters have 19AS and 21 Def.

Halbediers:

Lethe has:

100% chance to double.

11.67% chance of dealing 13*2=26 damage.

38.76% chance of dealing 11*2=22 damage.

37.97% chance of dealing 09*2=18 damage.

11.60% chance of dealing 07*2=14 damage.

Average of 20.02 damage.

Kysha has:

82.04% chance of doubling.

33.60% chance of dealing 15*2=30 damage.

37.80% chance of dealing 13*2=26 damage.

10.63% chance of dealing 11*2=22 damage.

07.36% chance of dealing 15x1=15 damage.

08.28% chance of dealing 13x1=13 damage.

02.27% chance of dealing 11x1=11 damage.

Average of 24.68 damage.

Kyzha wins by 4.66 Points.

Swordmasters.

Lethe:

73.12% chance to double.

08.53% chance of dealing 16*2=32 damage.

28.34% chance of dealing 14*2=28 damage.

27.76% chance of dealing 12*2=24 damage.

08.48% chance of dealing 10*2=20 damage.

03.13% chance of dealing 16*1=16 damage.

10.42% chance of dealing 14*1=14 damage.

10.21% chance of dealing 12*1=12 damage.

03.12% chance of dealing 10*1=10 damage.

Average of 22.52 damage.

Kyzha:

0% chance to double.

40.96% chance to deal 18*1=18 damage.

46.08% chance to deal 16*1=16 damage.

12.96% chance to deal 14*1=14 damage.

Average of 16.56 damage.

Lethe wins by 5.96 points.

Sages:

Sages have 33 HP.

Lethe:

Base Lethe deals 9*2+8=26.

(26-12)*2= 28 damage. Every Str adds 4 damage so she needs +2 Str to ORKO.

50.43% chance to ORKO.

37.97% chance to deal 16*2=32 damage.

11.60% chance to deal 14*2=28 damage.

Average of 32.04 damage.

Kyzha:

Base Kyzha deals 10*2+10=30.

(30-12)*2=36.

36>33

100% chance to ORKO.

Average of 33.00 damage.

Kyzha wins by 0.96 points

Dragonmasters:

Lethe:

100% chance to double.

11.67% chance of dealing 11*2=22 damage.

38.76% chance of dealing 09*2=18 damage.

37.97% chance of dealing 07*2=14 damage.

11.60% chance of dealing 05*2=10 damage.

Average of 16.02 damage.

Kyzha:

82.04% chance of doubling.

33.60% chance of dealing 13*2=26 damage.

37.80% chance of dealing 11*2=22 damage.

10.63% chance of dealing 09*2=18 damage.

07.36% chance of dealing 13*1=13 damage.

08.28% chance of dealing 11*1=11 damage.

02.33% chance of dealing 09*1=09 damage.

Average of 21.04 damage.

Kyzha wins by 5.02 points.

The chapter has 7 halbediers, 6 swordmasters, 9 Sages, 6 Dragonmasters.

(4.66*7-5.96*6+0.96*9+5.02*6)/28=1.27 in favor of Kyzha.

Chapter 3-8.

Lethe now has:

21.09% chance of +4 Spd.

42.19% chance of +3 Spd.

28.13% chance of +2 Spd.

07.81% chance of +1 Spd.

00.78% chance of +0 Spd.

06.74% chance of getting +4 Str.

27.31% chance of getting +3 Str.

38.30% chance of getting +2 Str.

22.74% chance of getting +1 Str.

04.90% chance of getting +0 Str.

Kysha now has:

19.26% chance of +3 Spd.

42.27% chance of +2 Spd.

30.92% chance of +1 Spd.

07.54% chance of +0 Spd.

26.21% chance of +3Str.

44.23% chance of +2 Str.

24.88% chance of +1 Str.

04.67% chance of +0 Str.

Halbediers have 21 AS and 21 Def

Generals have 19 or 20AS and 25Def

Sages have 19 or 20AS and 13Def

Halbedier:

Lethe:

has 99.22% chance to double.

06.69% chance of dealing 13*2=26 damage.

27.10% chance of dealing 11*2=22 damage.

38.00% chance of dealing 09*2=18 damage.

22.56% chance of dealing 07*2=14 damage.

04.86% chance of dealing 05*2=10 damage.

00.05% chance of dealing 13*1=13 damage.

00.21% chance of dealing 11*1=11 damage.

00.30% chance of dealing 09*1=09 damage.

00.18% chance of dealing 07*1=07 damage.

00.04% chance of dealing 05*1=05 damage.

Average of 18.26 damage.

Kyzha:

61.53% chance of doubling.

16.13% chance of dealing 15*2=30 damage.

27.21% chance of dealing 13*2=26 damage.

15.31% chance of dealing 11*2=22 damage.

02.87% chance of dealing 09*2=18 damage.

10.08% chance of dealing 15*1=15 damage.

17.01% chance of dealing 13*1=13 damage.

09.57% chance of dealing 11*1=11 damage.

01.41% chance of dealing 09*1=09 damage.

Average of 22.00 Damage.

Kyzha wins by 3.74 damage.

Generals:

Lethe:

100% chance to double.

06.74% chance of dealing 09*2=18 damage.

27.31% chance of dealing 07*2=14 damage.

38.30% chance of dealing 05*2=10 damage..

22.74% chance of dealing 03*2=06 damage.

04.90% chance of dealing 01*2=02 damage.

Average of 10.33 damage.

Kyzha.

92.46% chance to double.

24.23% chance of dealing 11*2=22 damage.

40.90% chance of dealing 09*2=18 damage.

23.00% chance of dealing 07*2=14 damage.

04.32% chance of dealing 05*2=10 damage.

01.98% chance of dealing 11*1=11 damage.

00.33% chance of dealing 09*1=09 damage.

01.88% chance of dealing 07*1=07 damage.

00.47% chance of dealing 05*1=05 damage.

Average of 16.75 damage.

Kyzha wins with 6.42 point.

Sages:

Lehte:

100% chance to double.

Sages have average of 24 health.

72.35% to ORKO

22.74% chance of dealing 15*2=30 damage.

04.90% chance of dealing 13*2=26 damage.

Average of 32.70 damage.

Kysha:

92.46% chance to double.

90.47% chance to ORKO

01.98% chance of dealing 23*1=23 damage.

00.33% chance of dealing 21*1=21 damage.

01.88% chance of dealing 19*1=19 damage.

00.47% chance of dealing 17*1=17 damage.

Average of 32.40 damage.

Lethe wins by 0.3 points.

5 Halbediers, 14 generals, 10 Sages

(5*3.74+ 14*6.42-10*0.3)/29= 3.64 damage more for Kyzha.

I guess this will continue seeing as the average speed of 3-10 enemies is 20 with loads of Paladins and in Chapter 3-11 they will have 20 or 22 speed with Kyzha having another level under his belt with the Crimean Bexp.

With Current calculations I guess Kyzha has a 60.43% chance to be more efficient then Lethe. in the Part 3 chapters.

EDIT: Silly me. 60.43 % against enemies with 21/22 Speed. It's 92.25% chance against enemies with 19/20 Speed. 100% chance for anything below level 19. 19.26% against enemies with 23/24 speed. 0% on enemies with more then 24 speed. (though I know these numbers are not solid either. Bleh.

MORE ORANGE JUICE BEFORE I GO MAD!

Edited October 7, 2011 by Silith

[RNG Princess]

30 speed is good enough in Part 4 right?