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30 speed is good enough in Part 4 right?

IIRC you'l have trouble doubling some fighters and maybe some Lance guys whose class name always escape me. Also, you won't double sword masters

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IIRC you'l have trouble doubling some fighters and maybe some Lance guys whose class name always escape me. Also, you won't double sword masters

In the desert map, and even then that is very few numbers from what I'm spying on the enemy stats. If worst comes to worst, Resolve's not heavily contested for.

But yeah, I am gonna concede the Lethe vs Kyza thing. After looking at the Blossom numbers and the idea that we have more BEXP than we know what to do with, I suppose I don't see too big an issue with it.

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Also, perhaps Shinon should go up.

<snip>

It is generous to put Shinon where he is, frankly. Unless you dawdle in Part 3, there isn't much experience to go around; one of your goals is to distribute it to the people who will use it to help handle Part 4. Shinon's lack of an EP is a double whammy in this case: it hurts him from getting EXP, meaning he needs more BEXP, and it also makes his Part 4 pretty bad. To be honest, I never train Shinon when I am moving with some speed. Also, WTF is with Shinon keeping Provoke? That is a gross misuse of a valuable resource. He doesn't have a useable EP and that is that when it comes to Provoke.

Meanwhile, Oscar is actually good if you sink resources into him. 1-2 range, good mobility, and decent tier 3 stats make him ideal for Tibarn's route, where you don't have to train him to be great in order for him to be hugely effective. Nephenee is also a resource sink, and she performs a similar function; she is borderline with ORKOs as much as Oscar is borderline doubling. Cross team comparisons are so ugly, but Nolan and Jill have Shinon beat everywhere. Better long term usage, more valuable to their team. I have no clue what you mean by comparing them to Shinon in 3-6; their contributions are not their stats. Shinon has good stats but struggles due to bow lock. Like I said before, I think his current position is pretty generous.

I certainly don't think he is better than Boyd (T) (whom I think is underrated) and think he is also significantly worse than Jill (T).

Then again, how many people use transfers? Are Annouleth, Xander and I the only ones to do HM transfer playthroughs? It is hard to get a grasp for what transfers do to the game with the theoretical.

Edited by incognit0
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I don't know why you would assume that you are the only ones who do HM transfer playthroughs.

As for Boyd, 20 Spd base is still a bit on the unimpressive side in terms of doubling. A Speedwing can remedy this, but he'd have to be taking it from Titania. Shinon has a much more secure Spd base (24) at any rate. Boyd may win EP against some enemy types, but if he can't double he's doing much better on the EP than Shinon (who can usually KO Sages with an Xbow anyway). Boyd wins Generals usually at least.

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I've done more than one HM transfer run myself, but my transfers tend to be overkill, so I don't think they'll apply too well here. In other news, I am for anything raising Jill (T) and I also think Boyd (T) may stand to rise. We'll see how this goes.

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So is Kyzha being moved up or did I make all these calculations for nothing?

My guess is he doesnt'need that much of a position lift even if he's better then Lethe in part 3. Neither is likely to be used there while Lethe herself is actually used in part 2 no matter how little.

Edited by Silith
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So is Kyzha being moved up or did I make all these calculations for nothing?

My guess is he doesnt'need that much of a position lift even if he's better then Lethe in part 3. Neither is likely to be used there while Lethe herself is actually used in part 2 no matter how little.

We don't rank characters based on how likely or unlikely they are to be used. We rank them based on their potential. How well do these characters do if we do use them? Obviously, a character you don't use isn't going to be very good.

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In that case I guess I have proven that Kyzha is better then Lethe after chapter 3-4 and remains better untill endgame rolls in OR Lethe reaches level 30 getting that rediculous Rend skill which OHKO's everything as long as she has 14 Str and S-strike (something not unreasonable if you used her throughout the game)

In the numbers I gave I stated I would give Kyzha another Bexp + blossom level while Lethe doesn't get another Bexp injections seeing as she already has had more then enough of it in Part 2. This would put the already winning Kyzha even further.

AS for why would one use either of them? In 3-4 one could say they get less penalty from Ledges and they move more easy through water in 3-7. 3-8, 3-10, 3-11 and 3-E don't seem to have a specific advantage. In Part 4 you could use their movement in the desert and in the swamp (ofcourse not in both) but there ends thier advantages. Kyzha's speedcap starts to hurt a lot too, but with my given numbers he's been made decently usefull with only a Bexp cost. I'll look in the numbers some more to see how much Spare Bexp you'll have for other units and for what you could use it, should you choose to use Kyzha.

Edited by Silith
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Still 9 Movement without being a Horserider is an advantage to move through 3-7 and 4-5(if you don't 1-turn that map).

UNless it's a Shoal/River you have to pass though. For some reason Beast Laguz need 5 movement to pass though those making them less quick then others. I never noticed this even on my Lyre kills the BK in 3-7 PT I've done.

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It is generous to put Shinon where he is, frankly. Unless you dawdle in Part 3, there isn't much experience to go around; one of your goals is to distribute it to the people who will use it to help handle Part 4. Shinon's lack of an EP is a double whammy in this case: it hurts him from getting EXP, meaning he needs more BEXP, and it also makes his Part 4 pretty bad. To be honest, I never train Shinon when I am moving with some speed. Also, WTF is with Shinon keeping Provoke? That is a gross misuse of a valuable resource. He doesn't have a useable EP and that is that when it comes to Provoke.

Meanwhile, Oscar is actually good if you sink resources into him. 1-2 range, good mobility, and decent tier 3 stats make him ideal for Tibarn's route, where you don't have to train him to be great in order for him to be hugely effective. Nephenee is also a resource sink, and she performs a similar function; she is borderline with ORKOs as much as Oscar is borderline doubling. Cross team comparisons are so ugly, but Nolan and Jill have Shinon beat everywhere. Better long term usage, more valuable to their team. I have no clue what you mean by comparing them to Shinon in 3-6; their contributions are not their stats. Shinon has good stats but struggles due to bow lock. Like I said before, I think his current position is pretty generous.

I certainly don't think he is better than Boyd (T) (whom I think is underrated) and think he is also significantly worse than Jill (T).

Then again, how many people use transfers? Are Annouleth, Xander and I the only ones to do HM transfer playthroughs? It is hard to get a grasp for what transfers do to the game with the theoretical.

I dunno, I've always use provoke in a defensive manner with Shinon. I've never really seen a lot of bad when it comes to less EP damage, I guess.

Well, I could use that arguement to say that a character like Edward is a great unit to sink exp. Giving him some bonus EXP is not such a bad idea to level him up toward promotion, really, and with support bonuses( like Nolan's) he becomes a beast. He's also there from the first, so its easy to give him training and supports.Yet Edward is in Mid-mid. Also even though Oscar can be good if EXP is given to him, he suffers the paladin curse unfortunately: low stat caps and bad part 4. If we consider tier list based on usefulness, then surely Shinon is much more useful here: He has sustained utility throughout the game, doesn't suffer movement issues( such as 3-4, 3-7 and 4-4) and has great utility. Heck, he's even better than Oscar in the desert though they have about the same movement as he's most likely a marksman by then(+1 range), he has silencer, killer bow and double bow utility, all of wihich help his case throughout the game. Oscar suffers from a low strength growth, which does not help in speedrunning in any case. In hard mode especially(we are talking about hard mode, right?) his speed will remain mediocre due to a bad cap of 24. So there, his biggest strength is limited by his biggest flaw. Oscar will remain as a unit who only doubles sages and does even lesser damage than Shinon. To hell with EP face if you're giving more chances of getting damaged and doing little damage yourself. Damage<Killing in speedruns, and Shinon wins in this. Also he's not doing better or worser than Shinon as both of them suffer flaws which inhibit both of them in some way or the other. You're better off using someone who has flight or magic rather than those two( except that Shinon can one-shot hawks and ravens, something Oscar can't do)

Nephenee is the same except she has more potential than Oscar, but as I said, if we're talking about units with potential, Edward should be way up. Nephenee also needs BEXP to function, something not necessary to Shinon. Oh, did I forget to mention she needs mooch kills when she comes to the GMs?

Also Boyd(T) is a safe unit to use. Heck, even Boyd(N) is quite usable. Nolan is a random unit to be using. He doesn't have consistent growths like growth characters like Edward and Nephenee, or even Aran. At least we know Boyd has a consistent strength,HP and defence growth rate. Nolan is too risky as he just has overpowered skill and speed growths going for him( and I've been extremely lucky with that speed growth, darn.)

Also, if a units contributions are not its stats, what is? I mean, if stats didn't matter, we could easily say Fiona is so much better than Rolf or Shinon (or even Leo). Sadly, this game is based on stats, and anything else that units give are only bonuses, nothing more. I mean, what exactly are units like Jill and Nolan doing, that is much better than stable units like Oscar and Shinon? If it is saving turns, Oscar and Shinon will save more turns than half of the dawn brigae. I get it, the Dawn Brigade needs all the characters they can get, but even a unit with fail stats can't contribute( something which CAN happen to the axe users of the Dawn Brigade.) At least Nolan gets Tarvos to help him, Jill doesn't even get any for her help( Face it, brave axe can be used just as well by Nolan if both are of the same level, if not better. And she doesn't do damage that is fatal, meaning she's prone to counter attacks and needs to be fed mooch kills. At least Nolan functiions with a support and Tarvos, she can't even do that, and Nolan has access to great supports.) It is kinda unfair to compare characters from different group though, yeah. That's the problem when deciding the tier list.

Actually, I think I'm kinda proving in the last paragraph that Nolan>Jill. Way to change the topic. xD

Edited by blues
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I dunno, I've always use provoke in a defensive manner with Shinon. I've never really seen a lot of bad when it comes to less EP damage, I guess.

Provoke attracts enemy attacks. It is better for the player to have that unit able to attack back. Not a hard concept to grasp.

Well, I could use that arguement to say that a character like Edward is a great unit to sink exp. Giving him some bonus EXP is not such a bad idea to level him up toward promotion, really, and with support bonuses( like Nolan's) he becomes a beast. He's also there from the first, so its easy to give him training and supports.Yet Edward is in Mid-mid.

Edward's doubling is incredibly shaky, as even someone like Annouleth will admit. Also, the DB doesn't have enough BEXP to do what you are saying anyways. You have to spend it all to get a unit who still has questionable durability, questionable 1RKOs and bad 1-2 range.

Also even though Oscar can be good if EXP is given to him, he suffers the paladin curse unfortunately: low stat caps and bad part 4. If we consider tier list based on usefulness, then surely Shinon is much more useful here: He has sustained utility throughout the game, doesn't suffer movement issues( such as 3-4, 3-7 and 4-4) and has great utility. Heck, he's even better than Oscar in the desert though they have about the same movement as he's most likely a marksman by then(+1 range), he has silencer, killer bow and double bow utility, all of wihich help his case throughout the game.

Oscar is a great candidate for the 3-7 crown: Titania can promote naturally, Haar already has a crown, and you don't have another 9 mov unit that needs a crown. Once again, I have no clue what this sustained utility is; there isn't a map besides 3-2 where his characteristics are suited to important combat.

Oscar suffers from a low strength growth, which does not help in speedrunning in any case. In hard mode especially(we are talking about hard mode, right?) his speed will remain mediocre due to a bad cap of 24. So there, his biggest strength is limited by his biggest flaw. Oscar will remain as a unit who only doubles sages and does even lesser damage than Shinon. To hell with EP face if you're giving more chances of getting damaged and doing little damage yourself. Damage<Killing in speedruns, and Shinon wins in this. Also he's not doing better or worser than Shinon as both of them suffer flaws which inhibit both of them in some way or the other. You're better off using someone who has flight or magic rather than those two( except that Shinon can one-shot hawks and ravens, something Oscar can't do)

The 3-7 crown helps Oscar volumes. It can't have more cost than promoting Shinon (who won't promote naturally without copious amounts of BEXP or a crown too) and Oscar has an enemy phase.

Nephenee is the same except she has more potential than Oscar, but as I said, if we're talking about units with potential, Edward should be way up. Nephenee also needs BEXP to function, something not necessary to Shinon. Oh, did I forget to mention she needs mooch kills when she comes to the GMs?

Nephenee is, like Shinon and Oscar, a unit who takes up considerable resources, but, once again, like Oscar, she actually kills stuff.

Shinon can have better combat than Nephenee and Oscar. However, if we are trying to complete maps in a timely fashion, it is necessary to have enemies suicide on EP. If Shinon can't give counters, he can't be on the front lines. We do not have enough units or time to form a defensive line. So Shinon lags behind and does not get many kills. Not getting many kills both does not help us, and forces us to feed Shinon BEXP to maintain superior combat. However, Shinon will never help us very much because he cannot give counters. Shinon is high because he is useable if you do not train him, and if you do sink resources into him, he can kill one unit on PP. Based on this information I think Shinon's position is generous, and I do not think he should be above Boyd (T).

EDIT: So what do people think about Boyd (T) and Jill (T)?

Edited by incognit0
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Oscar can be good if EXP is given to him, he suffers the paladin curse unfortunately: low stat caps and bad part 4. If we consider tier list based on usefulness, then surely Shinon is much more useful here: He has sustained utility throughout the game, doesn't suffer movement issues( such as 3-4, 3-7 and 4-4) and has great utility. Heck, he's even better than Oscar in the desert though they have about the same movement as he's most likely a marksman by then(+1 range), he has silencer, killer bow and double bow utility, all of wihich help his case throughout the game.

Killer Bows are subpar, the Double Bow comes late, and having either no enemy phase or a piss poor enemy phase sucks. Granted, Shinon's good, but I think it wouldn't be unreasonable if he dropped.

Edited by Metal King Slime
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Oscar T is better than Shinon initially because he doubles and has the strength for feats like 1RKOing Halberdiers. He has 1 more base strength, and while his speed is lower, he will proc a point of speed in time to double 20AS enemies in 3-3. He has more movement, 1-range for enemy phase, access to the Brave Lance if we choose to ship it over, and access to a Horseslayer for Paladins, and he can take BEXP to up his strength and defense (especially if you give him a Robe to cap HP). Shinon's advantages are limited to higher durability (which is wasted since he has lower movement and no enemy phase).

Later on, Oscar does need an earlier Crown, however. Hopefully in time for 3-8. It's also harder to get him to 28AS in time for Part 4. Shinon will eventually have to take a Crown himself because his exp gain is pretty slow.

Edited by Anouleth
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Shinon can have better combat than Nephenee and Oscar. However, if we are trying to complete maps in a timely fashion, it is necessary to have enemies suicide on EP. If Shinon can't give counters, he can't be on the front lines. We do not have enough units or time to form a defensive line. So Shinon lags behind and does not get many kills. Not getting many kills both does not help us, and forces us to feed Shinon BEXP to maintain superior combat. However, Shinon will never help us very much because he cannot give counters. Shinon is high because he is useable if you do not train him, and if you do sink resources into him, he can kill one unit on PP. Based on this information I think Shinon's position is generous, and I do not think he should be above Boyd (T).

Against most enemy types, Shinon has better offense with a Crossbow (dropped in 3-P) than Oscar has with a Steel Greatlance - until Oscar promotes.

Base Shinon with Crossbow: 28 Atk, 24 AS, 171 Hit, 24 Crit, 43 HP, 20 Def

Base Oscar with Short Spear: 30 Atk, 20 AS, 117 Hit, 38 HP, 17 Def

Base Oscar with Steel Greatlance: 34 Atk, 20 AS, 132 Hit, 38 HP, 17 Def

In 3-1, base Shinon doubles every enemy except the 1-2 Swordmaster(s) and Rommit. Base Oscar doubles nothing. Even if he'd proc'd Spd in 3-P, Oscar would still only be able to double a Sage and a couple Generals. Shinon does considerably more damage (on enemy phase) to every enemy that he doubles and Oscar does not, with the exception of Generals, where they deal about the same damage. Oscar could deal more damage to Swordmasters and Rommit on enemy phase. Except Oscar lacks perfect hit on all enemies and Shinon has a crit chance on all attacks. So even ignoring Shinon's vastly superior player-phase, Oscar has next to no combat wins over Shinon at this point.

Let's consider 3-8 with an uncrowned Oscar.

Level 17 Shinon with Crossbow: 28 Atk, 26 AS, 177 Hit, 25 Crit, 45 HP, 22 Def

Level 17 Shinon with Silencer: 39 Atk, 26 AS, 177 Hit, 30 Crit, 45 HP, 22 Def

Level 17 Oscar with Javelin forge: 34 Atk, 24 AS, 159 Hit, 40 HP, 19 Def

Level 17 Oscar with Steel Lance forge: 37 Atk, 24 AS, 174 Hit, 40 HP, 19 Def

More bad news for Oscar: every Warrior and Halberdier is 3-8 has 21 AS. Shinon still 2RKOs all Warriors with the Crossbow (at perfect hit). Shinon can also ORKO Warriors with the Silencer on player phase. Oscar 3RKOs even with a Steel Lance forge. Against Halberdiers, Shinon doesn't do quite as well with the Crossbow: he 3RKOs unless he crits (a 10% chance each attack). Shinon also only 3HKOs with the Silencer, but has a 15% crit with that weapon. Oscar 3RKOs with the Steel Lance forge. Snipers are ORKO'd by Silencer Shinon and 5HKO's by Crossbow Shinon. Oscar 3HKOs Snipers with a Javelin forge and is borderline on doubling them. Shinon is finally missing out on Crossbow ORKOs on Sages, so that's unfortunate. Oscar can ORKO with a Javelin forge, so he has the advantage against Sages on enemy phase. Against Generals, Crossbow Shinon is dealing crap damage. Shinon 3-4HKOs all Generals with the Silencer (again, with a decent crit chance). Oscar 4HKOs Generals with the Steel Lance and doubles them all, so he wins on enemy phase. Against Swordmasters, Shinon 3HKOs with the Crossbow and 2HKOs with the Silencer. Oscar 2HKOs, so that's a slight win on enemy phase (maybe - Shinon's crit isn't to be discounted).

I'd say that their enemy phase performance at this point is almost a draw. Shinon unequivicably has the superior player phase. And this is as good as it gets for Oscar until he promotes. Oscar's tier 2 Spd cap prevents him from doubling most enemies in the latter half of Part 3. Shinon, meanwhile can slowplay Bexp for Str comfortably while his 26 Spd doubles all non-Swordmaster foes. A Master Crown on Oscar is an option, but to what end? Oscar is a poor endgame unit and has an unimpressive Part 4 due to low Str. So while a Crowned Oscar can almost match Shinon's player phase for the last few chapters of Part 3 (and dominate his enemy phase until Shinon get Aqqar in 3-11), Shinon will still put on a better performance in Part 4 (especially Endgame).

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Against most enemy types, Shinon has better offense with a Crossbow (dropped in 3-P) than Oscar has with a Steel Greatlance - until Oscar promotes.

Base Shinon with Crossbow: 28 Atk, 24 AS, 171 Hit, 24 Crit, 43 HP, 20 Def

Base Oscar with Short Spear: 30 Atk, 20 AS, 117 Hit, 38 HP, 17 Def

Base Oscar with Steel Greatlance: 34 Atk, 20 AS, 132 Hit, 38 HP, 17 Def

Base level Oscar has 21AS, not 20.

In 3-1, base Shinon doubles every enemy except the 1-2 Swordmaster(s) and Rommit. Base Oscar doubles nothing. Even if he'd proc'd Spd in 3-P, Oscar would still only be able to double a Sage and a couple Generals.

Actually, he'd have 22AS and double every Sage and every General.

More bad news for Oscar: every Warrior and Halberdier is 3-8 has 21 AS.

Way to deliberately cherry-pick the level where all the enemies go up 1 speed point.

I'd say that their enemy phase performance at this point is almost a draw. Shinon unequivicably has the superior player phase. And this is as good as it gets for Oscar until he promotes. Oscar's tier 2 Spd cap prevents him from doubling most enemies in the latter half of Part 3. Shinon, meanwhile can slowplay Bexp for Str comfortably while his 26 Spd doubles all non-Swordmaster foes. A Master Crown on Oscar is an option, but to what end? Oscar is a poor endgame unit and has an unimpressive Part 4 due to low Str. So while a Crowned Oscar can almost match Shinon's player phase for the last few chapters of Part 3 (and dominate his enemy phase until Shinon get Aqqar in 3-11), Shinon will still put on a better performance in Part 4 (especially Endgame).

Shinon is actually pretty meh in Endgame because he likely won't reach level 20/11 to ORKO Generals, due to being a mediocre Part 4 character.

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Base level Oscar has 21AS, not 20.

My mistake.

Actually, he'd have 22AS and double every Sage and every General.

True. Then Oscar would have a chance to match Shinon's enemy phase ORKOs against Sages at 1-2 range. Except, Oscar has ~85% displayed hit with the Short Spear. Doubling Generals does make Oscar's enemy phase more impressive against this particular enemy (he 2RKOs).

Way to deliberately cherry-pick the level where all the enemies go up 1 speed point.

I picked two rout chapters: where Oscar and Shinon's combat seems most relevant. But I don't think Oscar is ever realistically doubling Warriors and Halberdiers at tier 2. Oscar would need to be level 17 by 3-4 to have a good chance at doubling Halberdiers. That's 5 levels in 4 chapters where Oscar outlevels enemies by quite a bit. Enemy Halberdiers have at least 21 AS starting in 3-5.

Shinon is actually pretty meh in Endgame because he likely won't reach level 20/11 to ORKO Generals, due to being a mediocre Part 4 character.

Shinon's Part 4 isn't mediocre. With Aqqar, Shinon can 2RKO almost all enemies at 1-2 range, but also has decent crit to pull off a fair number of 1RKOs. Shinon obviously stomps the Falcon Knights in 4-1. On player phase, Shinon can ORKO most enemy types with either the Silencer or a Silver Bow forge. He can do this from 3 range, which opens up some tactical flexibility.

It isn't impossible for a 20/7 Shinon who got max Str in tier 2 via Bexp with an Atk support to 2HKO Generals in 4-E-1 with the Double Bow. But even if Shinon can't do this, ORKOing Sages, Bishops, and Snipers with perfect accuracy at 1-3 range is not an insubstantial contribution. Besides, Shinon has a good chance to ORKO when he only 3HKOs, either with crit (potentially boosted with Gamble), Adept, or Deadeye. Shinon's contributions don't end there. Shinon can deal good damage to Dheginsea and the Auras from a flexible position (easy to be near dragons).

Shinon's Part 4 contributions certainly exceed Oscar's.

Edited by aku chi
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I picked two rout chapters: where Oscar and Shinon's combat seems most relevant. But I don't think Oscar is ever realistically doubling Warriors and Halberdiers at tier 2. Oscar would need to be level 17 by 3-4 to have a good chance at doubling Halberdiers. That's 5 levels in 4 chapters where Oscar outlevels enemies by quite a bit. Enemy Halberdiers have at least 21 AS starting in 3-5.

I think that arguably, better performance against General/Sages/Paladin is just as important as better performance against Halberdiers and Warriors.

Shinon's Part 4 isn't mediocre. With Aqqar, Shinon can 2RKO almost all enemies at 1-2 range, but also has decent crit to pull off a fair number of 1RKOs.

The Aqqar 4HKOes almost nothing in 4-4, has limited uses, and Shinon's crit is low. Oscar's chance of proccing Sol is better.

Shinon obviously stomps the Falcon Knights in 4-1.

Promoted Oscar can OHKO them with a forged bow himself.

On player phase, Shinon can ORKO most enemy types with either the Silencer or a Silver Bow forge. He can do this from 3 range, which opens up some tactical flexibility.

Shinon's 42ATK with Silencer doesn't 2HKO Warriors or Halberdiers in 4-1. It's not even close.

But even if Shinon can't do this, ORKOing Sages, Bishops, and Snipers with perfect accuracy at 1-3 range is not an insubstantial contribution.

ORKOing Sages at 3 range is a completely irrelevant ability, and perfect accuracy is not hard to produce with forges.

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I think that arguably, better performance against General/Sages/Paladin is just as important as better performance against Halberdiers and Warriors.

Maybe so, but Oscar only has those leads on enemy phase; Shinon is just plain better on player phase. Plus, Shinon ORKOs Sages with the Crossbow for a while.

The Aqqar 4HKOes almost nothing in 4-4, has limited uses, and Shinon's crit is low. Oscar's chance of proccing Sol is better.

Shinon can 4HKO with Aqqar in 4-4 with an Atk support. ~10 crit with Aqqar is rather low, granted. And Arbalest is probably not realistic for use in 4-4.

Promoted Oscar can OHKO them with a forged bow himself.

Not on enemy phase.

Shinon's 42ATK with Silencer doesn't 2HKO Warriors or Halberdiers in 4-1. It's not even close.

42 Atk? If we Bexp-slowplay Shinon for Str in tier 2, he should start 4-1 with 28-29 Str. 45 Atk does 2HKO all Halberdiers and Warriors in 4-1. Really, the 25 AS Warriors are the bigger issue. Shinon probably needs a Silver Bow forge to 2HKO the tougher Halberdiers and Warriors in 4-4 - and some Spd procs to double them. But these feats are pretty much out of Oscar's reach entirely (doubling and 2HKOing). Oscar might be better off in Tibarn's army, to be honest. He can actually 2HKO some 4-2 enemies with a Silver Lance forge and can double with a little Bexp.

ORKOing Sages at 3 range is a completely irrelevant ability, and perfect accuracy is not hard to produce with forges.

3 range lets Shinon avoid a counter and allows him to hit Sages further across chasms. It's not crucial, by any means, but it does make Shinon the best Sage-killer in 4-E-1 that doesn't fly.

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Maybe so, but Oscar only has those leads on enemy phase; Shinon is just plain better on player phase. Plus, Shinon ORKOs Sages with the Crossbow for a while.

Yet most action happens on enemy phase. And Oscar also has a movement advantage.

Shinon can 4HKO with Aqqar in 4-4 with an Atk support. ~10 crit with Aqqar is rather low, granted. And Arbalest is probably not realistic for use in 4-4.

There are only two decent characters with +ATK supports in the GMs, one is Mia who would rather support Oscar or Ike, and the other is Boyd who may not be played and would rather support Oscar or Ike.

Arbalest is definitely not realistic for use in 4-4.

42 Atk? If we Bexp-slowplay Shinon for Str in tier 2, he should start 4-1 with 28-29 Str. 45 Atk does 2HKO all Halberdiers and Warriors in 4-1. Really, the 25 AS Warriors are the bigger issue.

I doubt that Shinon is capping his strength in tier 2. At level 17, he has 22 or 23 strength: either way, it's impossible for him to reach 27 strength and he's unlikely to reach 26 strength. So he probably ends up with 25 strength.

3 range lets Shinon avoid a counter and allows him to hit Sages further across chasms.

It's not crucial, by any means, but it does make Shinon the best Sage-killer in 4-E-1 that doesn't fly.

Actually, he's beaten by any Sage killer that has nine move and canto.

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Oscar's best advantage over Shinon exists in 3-10, 3-E and Part 4. 3-10 Crowned Oscar is really good. Unless you got both energy drops, only one of Janaff/Ulki will be in play. Oscar is the 4th 9 mov unit to head northeast to the boss area, and his great mov plus Horseslayer access makes him critical. 3-E Oscar is also very useful, due to his mov and enemy phases.

aku chi, you are right. Shinon is better than a gimped Oscar. However, I don't know if there is a clearly better candidate to get the crown, and Shinon isn't exactly blowing up 3-8 with a Crossbow either. Crowned Oscar (T) can contribute in Parts 3 and 4 due to his 9 mov and EP.

Edited by incognit0
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Yet most action happens on enemy phase. And Oscar also has a movement advantage.

How substantial is Oscar's mobility advantage?

3-P: Oscar has slightly (due to thickets) better movement than Shinon. But Shinon has better player phase offense, Ballista utility, and doesn't have to worry about the Horseslayer General, so this is no win for Oscar.

3-1: This is a condensed rout chapter with high enemy density. Oscar's extra movement can't be utilized because he's not very durable. Shinon has better offense.

3-2: Shinon is better at killing/damaging the boss, but he needs to be shoved/ferried. Oscar can help clear the way with his better movement.

3-3: There's plenty to do in this chapter, but Oscar's superior movement does give him more opportunities to be helpful.

3-4: Shinon can climb up the ledges while Oscar has better movement otherwise - seems like a draw.

3-5: Finally Oscar has a clear win thanks to his mobility.

3-7: Neither makes the chapter faster, but Oscar can't get nearly as much Cexp due to being stuck near the starting island.

3-8: Indoors. Canto is a minor boon for Oscar to help him get into vigor positions. But Shinon wins combat unless we crowned Oscar.

3-10: Oscar's mobility is helpful again. But it's a rout, so Shinon's contributions are meaningful, too.

3-11: Both have to avoid potholes. Shinon can use his superior 2-range to snipe at enemies behind obstacles, but Oscar can get to the east if we have fliers block potholes for him.

3-E: Oscar can expose himself to more enemies, but he needs to be careful due to his mediocre durability.

4-1 (assuming both go): FOW + poor durability means that Oscar can't make very good use of his mobility.

4-4: Shinon can climb ledges. Oscar needs to go the long way around or just stick to the bottom. If he had any offense, he would be decently valuable down there just as Shinon is valuable in the north. Unfortunately, Oscar struggles to double and 2HKO.

4-E: 9 mov + canto would be nice if Oscar had some offense, but so is Shinon's 3-range.

There are only two decent characters with +ATK supports in the GMs, one is Mia who would rather support Oscar or Ike, and the other is Boyd who may not be played and would rather support Oscar or Ike.

I would think that Boyd would prefer to support Shinon over Oscar. Boyd and Shinon share the same movement, so they're more likely to stay within support range. Plus, Boyd appreciates the concrete defense boost of thunder, because he's never going to be an avoid tank. Also, you forgot about Mist (who shares movement with Shinon and is a good bet to be in play all the way up to 4-4) and Rhys (who has similar movement, but might head elsewhere in Part 4). So there are 4 realistic +atk support options for Shinon who share movement and availability and want durability.

I doubt that Shinon is capping his strength in tier 2. At level 17, he has 22 or 23 strength: either way, it's impossible for him to reach 27 strength and he's unlikely to reach 26 strength. So he probably ends up with 25 strength.

Shinon is likely to cap Skl and Spd by level 16, giving us 4 level to Bexp his Str. Hitting 26 Str is most likely if we play our cards right. Shinon (T) insta-caps Skl and Spd, so it's trivial to get him to cap Str at tier 2.

Actually, he's beaten by any Sage killer that has nine move and canto.

I disagree, especially if that Sage killer is Oscar, who likely lacks the Atk to 2HKO even the weakest Sages with a Javelin forge.

Crowned Oscar (T) can contribute in Parts 3 and 4 due to his 9 mov and EP.

Oscar (T) is a different story and is rightfully over Shinon.

Edited by aku chi
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3-4: Shinon can climb up the ledges while Oscar has better movement otherwise - seems like a draw.

Oscar can rescue drop Ike towards the ledges. That's pretty important.

3-11: Both have to avoid potholes. Shinon can use his superior 2-range to snipe at enemies behind obstacles, but Oscar can get to the east if we have fliers block potholes for him.

Steel Bow forges only have 3 more ATK than Javelin forges.

3-E: Oscar can expose himself to more enemies, but he needs to be careful due to his mediocre durability.

Oscar's durability should be fine because of his earth support.

I would think that Boyd would prefer to support Shinon over Oscar. Boyd and Shinon share the same movement, so they're more likely to stay within support range. Plus, Boyd appreciates the concrete defense boost of thunder, because he's never going to be an avoid tank.

He's never going to have high defense either because of his crappy base.

Also, you forgot about Mist (who shares movement with Shinon and is a good bet to be in play all the way up to 4-4)

Mist is a poor support because she often has to hold back for fear of getting killed.

and Rhys (who has similar movement, but might head elsewhere in Part 4).

Rhys has horrible movement and the same problem as Mist. If Shinon stays near him, then his movement is an even bigger issue.

So there are 4 realistic +atk support options for Shinon who share movement and availability and want durability.

I am not so optimistic to think that Mist or Rhys have any hope of surviving a round of combat.

Shinon is likely to cap Skl and Spd by level 16, giving us 4 level to Bexp his Str.

56% chance.

Hitting 26 Str is most likely if we play our cards right. Shinon (T) insta-caps Skl and Spd, so it's trivial to get him to cap Str at tier 2.

I could say the same for Oscar T.

I disagree, especially if that Sage killer is Oscar, who likely lacks the Atk to 2HKO even the weakest Sages with a Javelin forge.

So Oscar "likely" is never going to get BEXP and a +attack support, while Shinon is "likely" to get those things.

I'm really not seeing Shinon being massively better than Oscar. Better, maybe, but not to the point where it requires an entire tier.

But this argument is pretty fruitless. I think it would be better to look at Oscar vs Nephenee. What kind of experience gain can Nephenee get in Part 2? Because in my experience, it's not an enormous amount.

Edited by Anouleth
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How substantial is Oscar's mobility advantage?

3-P: Oscar has slightly (due to thickets) better movement than Shinon. But Shinon has better player phase offense, Ballista utility, and doesn't have to worry about the Horseslayer General, so this is no win for Oscar.

Shinon can't utilize player phase offense due to the mad dash through the thickets and Rolf can use Ballista anyways.

3-1: This is a condensed rout chapter with high enemy density. Oscar's extra movement can't be utilized because he's not very durable. Shinon has better offense.

3-2: Shinon is better at killing/damaging the boss, but he needs to be shoved/ferried. Oscar can help clear the way with his better movement.

3-3: There's plenty to do in this chapter, but Oscar's superior movement does give him more opportunities to be helpful

3-4: Shinon can climb up the ledges while Oscar has better movement otherwise - seems like a draw.

Neither is necessary in this chapter.

3-5: Finally Oscar has a clear win thanks to his mobility.

Nope; Oscar has a clear win in 3-3 as well.

3-7: Neither makes the chapter faster, but Oscar can't get nearly as much Cexp due to being stuck near the starting island.

3-8: Indoors. Canto is a minor boon for Oscar to help him get into vigor positions. But Shinon wins combat unless we crowned Oscar. If we crowned Oscar, Oscar clearly wins.

3-10: Oscar's mobility is helpful again. But it's a rout, so Shinon's contributions are meaningful, too.

Shinon's contributions? What contributions? Ike and Mia/Ulki take the south, Haar/Titania/Janaff/Oscar take the north. Shinon is hampered by the large threat ranges of Paladins he cannot counter. The map is too wide open.

3-11: Both have to avoid potholes. Shinon can use his superior 2-range to snipe at enemies behind obstacles, but Oscar can get to the east if we have fliers block potholes for him.

Neither one does much.

3-E: Oscar can expose himself to more enemies, but he needs to be careful due to his mediocre durability.

Shinon has better offense, but can't do much without the ability to counter on such a wide open map.

4-1 (assuming both go): FOW + poor durability means that Oscar can't make very good use of his mobility.

FOW means Shinon can't make very good use of his offense, period.

4-4: Shinon can climb ledges. Oscar needs to go the long way around or just stick to the bottom. If he had any offense, he would be decently valuable down there just as Shinon is valuable in the north. Unfortunately, Oscar struggles to double and 2HKO.

4-E: 9 mov + canto would be nice if Oscar had some offense, but so is Shinon's 3-range.

Also, Oscar is a great fit for Hawk. You don't want to send a great unit there because it is one combat chapter. Oscar can move through the map in a timely manner and he can manufacture offense with Resolve, Brave Lance, and Forges.

I would think that Boyd would prefer to support Shinon over Oscar. Boyd and Shinon share the same movement, so they're more likely to stay within support range. Plus, Boyd appreciates the concrete defense boost of thunder, because he's never going to be an avoid tank. Also, you forgot about Mist (who shares movement with Shinon and is a good bet to be in play all the way up to 4-4) and Rhys (who has similar movement, but might head elsewhere in Part 4). So there are 4 realistic +atk support options for Shinon who share movement and availability and want durability.

Boyd needs to be on the front lines, Shinon can't. Mist and Rhys are better options (although one might be taken by Titania).

Oscar (T) is a different story and is rightfully over Shinon.

Slip of the tongue.

I don't think Shinon is that bad, but he just isn't that useful. He could stand to drop, but he certainly shouldn't rise (which is how this discussion started).

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