OMG it's a tier list

[aku chi]

Steel Bow forges only have 3 more ATK than Javelin forges.

Silencer has 4 more Mt, Shinon has more Str, some crit, and Shinon doubles even without a Master Crown.

Oscar's durability should be fine because of his earth support.

Yeah, I can see a promoted Oscar with a support doing well in 3-E.

He's never going to have high defense either because of his crappy base.

*shrug*

Mist is a poor support because she often has to hold back for fear of getting killed.

Rhys has horrible movement and the same problem as Mist. If Shinon stays near him, then his movement is an even bigger issue.

I am not so optimistic to think that Mist or Rhys have any hope of surviving a round of combat.

It's not difficult for Mist/Rhys to be within support range but outside of EP danger. And if Mist/Rhys don't want some extra durability from supports, they definitely don't want anything else a support can give them, so it's not like they'd prefer another support partner. Big picture: it's absurd to claim that Shinon can't/won't have an Atk support.

56% chance.

How did you calculate this, out of curiousity?

I could say the same for Oscar T.

You could, but considering that Oscar (T) is already above Shinon, it would be irrelevant. On the otherhand, Shinon and Shinon (T) are currently merged, so it seems relevant to consider their differences.

So Oscar "likely" is never going to get BEXP and a +attack support, while Shinon is "likely" to get those things.

Even in the best case scenario, Oscar struggles to be useful in 4-E-1.

17/9 Oscar - 27 Str, 31 AS

20 (with Bexp for Str)/7 Oscar - 29 Str, 30 AS

Oscar needs 41-44 Atk to 2HKO Sages in 4-E-1. So Oscar could 2HKO the weaker Sages in 4-E-1 with a Javelin forge if we Bexp slow-played Oscar in Part 3 instead of giving him the crown, but that hurts his Part 3 and Part 4 (he basically can't double Halberdiers, Warriors, or Snipers). An Atk support would let him 2HKO almost all of the Sages. If we crowned Oscar, he would need an A Atk support to 2HKO the weakest Sages with a Javelin forge. If we use a Spear or have a +6 Mt Javelin forge, Oscar can do something with a C/B Atk support. As you can see, Oscar needs a lot of help to 2HKO Sages with 1-2 range in 4-E-1. That doesn't really impress me, especially considering how worthless Oscar is for the rest of 4-E.

But this argument is pretty fruitless. I think it would be better to look at Oscar vs Nephenee. What kind of experience gain can Nephenee get in Part 2? Because in my experience, it's not an enormous amount.

I support Oscar > Nephenee. In fact, I thought there was a discussion a month or two back about this.

---

incognit0, it's incorrect to state that Shinon has no enemy phase. You've disregarded my posts explaining how Shinon's enemy phase with crossbows is similarly valuable to Oscar's enemy phase pre-promotion. And Shinon's EP with Aqqar is respectable, if unspectacular.

I don't think Shinon is that bad, but he just isn't that useful. He could stand to drop, but he certainly shouldn't rise (which is how this discussion started).

I've just been arguing Shinon > Oscar. I don't think Shinon should rise (above Nephenee (T) would be the only possibility in my mind).

Edited October 9, 2011 by aku chi

[Anouleth]

Oscar is a terrible fit for Hawk Army because of the thickets.

How did you calculate this, out of curiousity?

http://www.feplanet.net/games-10-characters-averages

Edited October 9, 2011 by Anouleth

[incognit0]

incognit0, it's incorrect to state that Shinon has no enemy phase. You've disregarded my posts explaining how Shinon's enemy phase with crossbows is similarly valuable to Oscar's enemy phase pre-promotion. And Shinon's EP with Aqqar is respectable, if unspectacular.

I assumed you were not referring to Crossbow on 3-10 because: he cannot 1RKO Paladins with Crossbow, and Paladins who get behind you can kill Mist/Rhys/untransformed Laguz (and I though Mist/Rhys was supporting Shinon anyways). I did not consider Aqqar on 3-E or 4-1, although it holds similar problems if you want to assume that Mist/Rhys is supporting him. If not, sure, he has an EP. It is uninspiring though.

EDIT:

Oscar is a terrible fit for Hawk Army because of the thickets.

Have you really thought this through? Thickets don't inhibit him as much as ledges or desert. Plus, 7 mov units are only better through thickets when you go through 3 of them in one move.

Edited October 9, 2011 by incognit0

[Anouleth]

Have you really thought this through? Thickets don't inhibit him as much as ledges or desert. Plus, 7 mov units are only better through thickets when you go through 3 of them in one move.

Even if Oscar only has 1 good movement chapter on Silver and Greil Army each, that's better than the zero good chapters in Hawk Army.

[aku chi]

Now that I look at it, I could see both Nephenee and Nephenee (T) moving down.

I'd suggest Nephenee move right above Boyd. Both units need a lot of resources to be worth using beyond 3-2. Boyd ends up better with more resources, but Nephenee doesn't need quite as many resources to be decently useful (just enough Bexp to double consistently). Nephenee's Part 2 is slightly more valuable than Boyd's 3-P and 3-1, so that pushes her above Boyd.

Nephenee (T) should definitely move below Jill (T) (IMO), but one could also make a case for her to be below Shinon, as well.

- WOAH - What is Rolf (T) doing in Upper-Mid? Or above Soren (T), for that matter?

[Lord Raven]

I don't understand why Soren > Geoffrey if Tormod > Soren. Tormod's got 2 good chapters on Soren (he's not *that* good in 1-E) and Geoffrey's got two incredible chapters on Soren.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[aku chi]

I don't understand why Soren > Geoffrey if Tormod > Soren. Tormod's got 2 good chapters on Soren (he's not *that* good in 1-E) and Geoffrey's got two incredible chapters on Soren.

Geoffrey > Tormod makes sense to me.

[-Cynthia-]

I've been calling to move Geoffrey back up to Mid for a while now.

As for Nephenee, she doesn't gain a lot of CEXP but we got a lot of BEXP before 2-E and not that many good places to dump it. I guess you can hope to proc Spd on Haar or something, but there's not a lot of competition for it overall.

Rolf(T) can double pretty easily. 21 base Spd with a low base level isn't bad at all, and a Str transfer along with his Str growth makes ORKOing pretty easy. He also doesn't have T2 Spd cap issues like Soren.

[Anouleth]

Having used Rolf T, I can say that he really is a complete piece of shit.

[aku chi]

Rolf(T) can double pretty easily. 21 base Spd with a low base level isn't bad at all, and a Str transfer along with his Str growth makes ORKOing pretty easy. He also doesn't have T2 Spd cap issues like Soren.

Rolf has a 45% Spd growth. With a base of 21 Spd, this allows Rolf (T) to just barely double Sages and Generals. Doubling Halberdiers and Warriors is mostly out of the picture until Rolf promotes (which will require a Master Crown: the downside of a low base level). 19 Str with a great growth allows Rolf to ORKO Sages and Bishops, but that's about it.

Soren (T), on the other hand, is Bexp-able from the get-go and a great candidate for a Master Crown (probably the 3-6 one, because it has lower demand). With just Bexp, Soren will cap Mag, Skl, Spd, and Res by level 10.

10/1 Soren (T) - 37 HP, 13 Str, 29 Mag, 25 Skl, 25 Spd, 15 Lck, 14 Def, 25 Res

At this point, Soren can double all Halberdier, Warriors and slower enemies for the duration of Part 3. With sky-high magic, Soren 2HKOs everything.

I posted this in another topic:

Base Soren (T) with Elwind: 31 Atk (hitting Res), 20 AS

Base Rolf (T) with Rolf's Bow: 27 Atk (hitting Def), 21 AS

Soren (T) can 2HKO almost every enemy unit in 3-P and 3-1 (only some Sages and Generals are borderline). And while he can't double much, he can pull off some very impressive ORKOs on a few Generals in 3-1. Rolf (T), meanwhile, is borderline on both doubling and 2HKOing the Sages in 3-P and 3-1 (from whom he takes terrible damage). Against the rest of the enemies, Rolf (T) is lucky to 3HKO, so to contribute to a kill he needs to be paired up with Mia or Titania instead of Oscar or Boyd, unlike Soren. Rolf does have some Ballista utility in 3-P, which is somewhat nice.

The base improves both Soren and Rolf.

Level 7 Soren (T) with forged Wind: 36 Atk (hitting Res), 21 AS

Level 3 Rolf (T) with forged Steel Bow: 35.5 Atk (hitting Def), 21.9 AS

With a Wind forge, Soren can cleanly 2HKO most every enemy in 3-2 and beyond (even the bosses). His Spd still doesn't let him double anything but the slowest Generals and Sages. Rolf gets a big boost from a forge, but he still struggles to 2HKO even the weakest physical enemies. He can cleanly 2HKO Sages and often doubles them, but he takes some serious damage in return. He otherwise fails to double any physical enemy that he can deal respectable damage to.

Edited October 10, 2011 by aku chi

[Dark Sage]

Rolf has a 35% Spd growth.

Actually, it's a 45% growth.

[RNG Princess]

Haar, Nephenee, and Marcia are the best candidates for P2 BEXP. Use it on Haar and get his speed up, save it for Marcia or use it on Neph. I'd rather use it on the fliers since they can cut turncounts down.

[-Cynthia-]

Rolf has a 45% Spd growth. With a base of 21 Spd, this allows Rolf (T) to just barely double Sages and Generals. Doubling Halberdiers and Warriors is mostly out of the picture until Rolf promotes (which will require a Master Crown: the downside of a low base level). 19 Str with a great growth allows Rolf to ORKO Sages and Bishops, but that's about it.

Soren (T), on the other hand, is Bexp-able from the get-go and a great candidate for a Master Crown (probably the 3-6 one, because it has lower demand). With just Bexp, Soren will cap Mag, Skl, Spd, and Res by level 10.

10/1 Soren (T) - 37 HP, 13 Str, 29 Mag, 25 Skl, 25 Spd, 15 Lck, 14 Def, 25 Res

Several levels of BEXP and a crown seems rather expensive for a non-durable 6 Mov unit, all things considered. But yeah I can agree to Rolf(T) dropping down a tier. In theory he's not that terrible though, giving him a Wing makes him fairly similar to Shinon (slightly less Str and Spd but with a better Str growth, worse defenses but those don't matter too much for Snipers anyway).

Edited October 10, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[aku chi]

Several levels of BEXP and a crown seems rather expensive for a non-durable 6 Mov unit, all things considered. But yeah I can agree to Rolf(T) dropping down a tier. In theory he's not that terrible though, giving him a Wing makes him fairly similar to Shinon (slightly less Str and Spd but with a better Str growth, worse defenses but those don't matter too much for Snipers anyway).

I was suggesting that we Bexp-slowplay Soren (T) from the word go. With seven chapters to slowplay five levels, Soren can end up taking just a tiny fraction of Bexp. The Master Crown is required if you want Soren (T) to do anything valuable beyond 3-1. Training Rolf (T) requires at least as many resources. Even if we're generous and assume that this Sniper with poor durability can gain one level per chapter, we're still left with a Level 12 Sniper come Part 4. So Rolf needs a Master Crown, too (though he can take one of the later ones, which are slightly less valuable). But, as I said, a level a chapter is pretty generous for Rolf; he might need Paragon or some Bexp to get there (level 12 is where he wants to be, because he caps both Str and Spd at that level on average). Offensively, Rolf (T) can theoretically become as good as Shinon in Part 4 (more Str, less Spd). Rolf's durability is poor, though, so he really can't put the crossbows to nearly as good a use as Shinon. Soren's part 4 is mostly chip and staff utility, but he retains the awesome ability to ORKO Generals.

[Anouleth]

If I could remind everyone, we were talking about Kysha a while back? Any objection to moving him above... say, Makalov?

[Silith]

I would suggest putting him between Lethe and Gareth. While he is much better then Lethe in Part 3 (as I calculated to great length)I find Lethe's help in chapter 2-2 to outweigh it since neither is likely to be used lots in part 3.

[Anouleth]

I would suggest putting him between Lethe and Gareth. While he is much better then Lethe in Part 3 (as I calculated to great length)I find Lethe's help in chapter 2-2 to outweigh it since neither is likely to be used lots in part 3.

This isn't about likelihood. The question is, what "can" Kysha do, not "are we likely to use him". I would say that using FE9 Jill in an efficient playthrough is not likely because her recruitment takes time, but that doesn't stop her from being good. Edward is 100% likely to be used, but he's in Mid.

The tier list should not care, in other words, about how good or bad a character is when they are not used, but how good or bad they are when they are used. I don't think that Lethe's half a chapter in Part 2 outweighs Kysha being better for seven chapters.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Anouleth

[Silith]

Lethe is better in chapters 2-2 (6) 2-E (3) and 3-4(6) for a total of 15 turns. (though one can asusme at least 4 of those will be spend untransformed)

Kyzha is better in chapters 3-7 (11), 3-8(5), 3-10(5), 3-11(5), 3-E(5) and 2 Part 4 chapters (averaging 4 turns I guess). for a total of 39 turns of which at least 14 will be spend untransformed.

So 11 turns of usability vs 25. Kyzha is the winner if we check potentials in efficient plays. though Lethe's 11 each count for more then Kyzha's 25 each.

With Anouleth's reasoning I could see him placed just above Volke but probably not above Makalov. It's a close thing though.

We might wanna discuss Makalov vs Kyzha though it's a hard discussion since the two are in seperate maps untill 3-11 and function differently.

(For those who didn't follow my earlier calculations I put Lethe vs Kyzha as if I was playing 2 different PT's and fed similar resources to them) The conclusion is that over chapter 3-4 till 3-11 there is a 86.4% chance Kyzha will end up more efficient then Lethe.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Silith

[Anouleth]

Kysha is better in 3-4 as well since he transforms on turn 2 instead of turn 3.

[grandjackal]

Lethe is better in chapters 2-2 (6) 2-E (3) and 3-4(6) for a total of 15 turns. (though one can asusme at least 4 of those will be spend untransformed)

Hold on a second about 3-4. One of the missions of 3-4 is to get Ranulf up to a seize point, and one way of which to attain this is to have Ranulf climb up the ballista cliff (unless I've completely been away for too long and there has been a new strat fr 3-4), and that cliff has mages. Kyza can ORKO these fools in order to help Ranulf climb up the cliff and thus get him closer to the obtaining point. Not much else is actually in your path taking that route. Kyza can be transformed by the time you reach that cliff, and thus, he has an actual contribution to that chapter that Lethe cannot since her Mt is not enough to ORKO said mages blocking said cliff.

2-2 is also the only thing she has in contest. 2-E is entirely out of her hands, and is merely there for self-improvement.

Kyzha is better in chapters 3-7 (11), 3-8(5), 3-10(5), 3-11(5), 3-E(5) and 2 Part 4 chapters (averaging 4 turns I guess). for a total of 39 turns of which at least 14 will be spend untransformed.

So 11 turns of usability vs 25. Kyzha is the winner if we check potentials in efficient plays. though Lethe's 11 each count for more then Kyzha's 25 each.

I'd contest that those 11 of those turns is exaggerated. At best, she has whatever she has as time transformed in chapter 2-2.

You say Kyza wins from 3-4 on, but I'd venture he wins 3-4 anyways on basis of contribution alone. This could tie Lethe's 2-2, and since he's straight winning form there...

With Anouleth's reasoning I could see him placed just above Volke but probably not above Makalov. It's a close thing though.

Looking at charts for Blossom Gorwth, I could easily see Kyza above that fool Makalov. Makalov is already 4 speed in the hole in comparison, and needs a forge to equal the might of a silver sword just to match Kyza's base mt, nevermind that Kyza can do fun stuff like fit Wrath AND Resolve onto his capacity (Anouleth, you best not be yanking my chain on this one!), and not suck on terrained maps such as...Part 4 in it's entirity.

Let's see Mak's contributions.

2-3, he...Exists. The best he can do is help pull enemies away from Keiran and Geoffery so they don't get killed and thus add to your BEXP bank. 2-E ends before they even show up. 3-9 he again just exists as it's just competent units rushing the boss. Then he joins the rank of the mercs...at the bridge, possibly THE worst map a paladin could ask for on account of the fact he can't be rescue dropped, and thus has to deal with the wall of pratfall holes.Then 3-E, where it's bascally all combat. Even if we didn't have all the ally laguz doing all the work for us, you think Makalov, a man who starts already steep in the hole in AS compared to a unit who at his base several chapters ago already had mediocre speed is going to compare to the Blossom'd out Kyza?

Then part 4 comes along, and Makalov quits life.

We might wanna discuss Makalov vs Kyzha though it's a hard discussion since the two are in seperate maps untill 3-11 and function differently.

Gauge or no, it's clear that Mak doesn't do much at all to make up for what Kyza's doing until they meet up. Sparing the bridge where I would venture both are awful, Kyza's whipping his ass past that point, gauge or no. Not only will he have monumental stat leads on the golden loser, all I have to do is point to the desert map and I win.

(For those who didn't follow my earlier calculations I put Lethe vs Kyzha as if I was playing 2 different PT's and fed similar resources to them) The conclusion is that over chapter 3-4 till 3-11 there is a 86.4% chance Kyzha will end up more efficient then Lethe.

Contributions aside, that sounds like a solid lead Kyza has to me.

[Narga_Rocks]

- WOAH - What is Rolf (T) doing in Upper-Mid? Or above Soren (T), for that matter?

He still needs to drop, but nobody has really gone into depth about it. Back under the assumptions of ~8 turn clears, he's fine where he is. Based on his spd growth and level, and the enemies he needs to fight, he only has 2 or 3 chapters that are worse than Shinon's. It should, generally, take only two levels to reach 22 spd, and there are a lot of 18 spd enemies. HIs main problem chapters were probably 3-3 and when Shinon promotes, if I remember what I said way back whenever in a post I'm too lazy to find.

If we assume ~5 turn clears, or better where possible, Rolf needs to drop a lot since he'll be lucky to get half a level each chapter.

[Anouleth]

Even with Rolf gaining a level per chapter, he's not really great. He really, really struggles to contribute anything in Routs: I actually had to have him hold back in 3-10 because he was such a liability. I can see him below or near Soren T: after all, it's not that tough for Soren T to reach 22AS himself, and Rolf will need to take his own crown eventually, so it mitigates the cost of Soren's early crown. Soren can also buffer his otherwise glacial exp gain with staff use. Shame that his staff rank is so poor, though. It would be cool if he had Physic for 22EXP per go, but he's stuck with Heal. I guess there's Arms Scrolls, but 8k for Physic is a significant amount of money. We would spend that on a Dracoshield or a Secret Book instead.

[Narga_Rocks]

Even with Rolf gaining a level per chapter, he's not really great. He really, really struggles to contribute anything in Routs: I actually had to have him hold back in 3-10 because he was such a liability. I can see him below or near Soren T: after all, it's not that tough for Soren T to reach 22AS himself, and Rolf will need to take his own crown eventually, so it mitigates the cost of Soren's early crown. Soren can also buffer his otherwise glacial exp gain with staff use. Shame that his staff rank is so poor, though. It would be cool if he had Physic for 22EXP per go, but he's stuck with Heal. I guess there's Arms Scrolls, but 8k for Physic is a significant amount of money. We would spend that on a Dracoshield or a Secret Book instead.

But the point with Rolf's position was in comparison to Shinon. Having only 2 or 3 chapters worse than Shinon made it seem like a tier below him was worthwhile. The discussion is probably around 50 to 100 pages ago, or you could use the search function if you want to see the discussion that got him where he is and make counters to all the posts (which is reasonable). There's another discussion that came many pages after, in which Vykan (I think) was trying to argue him down, but due to some inconsistencies about chapter length in the arguments Rolf didn't go anywhere. I'd recommend finding the original posts that moved Rolf up, since that's where I compared him to Shinon chapter by chapter.

[Anouleth]

But the point with Rolf's position was in comparison to Shinon. Having only 2 or 3 chapters worse than Shinon made it seem like a tier below him was worthwhile.

But that was also at a time where nobody had ever actually used Rolf T in an efficient playthrough.

And I think that Rolf T has more in common with Soren T than with Shinon. ;/

[Narga_Rocks]

But that was also at a time where nobody had ever actually used Rolf T in an efficient playthrough.

And I think that Rolf T has more in common with Soren T than with Shinon. ;/

Well, if you've actually played with him and you've played with Shinon (not the transferred one), then how different is Rolf (T) from Shinon?

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10600&st=4020&p=679518entry679518

Can you fix that for us so that we can see what you see? (And it turns out that was over 200 pages ago. Oops. Go search function. I set it to search for posts with both Shinon and Rolf in the post from the Radiant Dawn forum and posts that were done by me and in topics that had over 1000 posts. I should have chosen over 5000 posts, though, to weed out everything that wasn't OMG. Only 4 pages of results and found the post on page 3. You could've done that.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Narga_Rocks