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OMG it's a tier list


Florete
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This whole notion of player intuition is absurd. If, for instance, it's the player's first playthrough, their "intuitive" resource allocation will be completely messed up by their lack of knowledge of wonky player availabilities in the game. Imagine giving an energy drop to Vika, only to have her run off for 2/3rds of the game.

That example aside, the prevailing logic seems to be "unit X will not receive resources Y unless it makes intuitive sense". That's just making unwarranted assumptions. For one person, having Micaiah use sacrifice wrath is reasonable and intuitive, whereas another might never think to do that. You can't predict how the player will reason, especially in a game so heavily RNG based. One player tolerates 80 display hit as a tolerable chance, another one doesn't, etc.

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why would an efficiency tier list care about intuition anyway

efficiency isn't intuitive to begin with

Because there is a big difference between a unit who is just THAT 'efficient' and doesn't need further explanation and a unit who is only equally 'effecient' through some arcane or hyper-focused means.

This whole notion of player intuition is absurd. If, for instance, it's the player's first playthrough, their "intuitive" resource allocation will be completely messed up by their lack of knowledge of wonky player availabilities in the game. Imagine giving an energy drop to Vika, only to have her run off for 2/3rds of the game.

That example aside, the prevailing logic seems to be "unit X will not receive resources Y unless it makes intuitive sense". That's just making unwarranted assumptions. For one person, having Micaiah use sacrifice wrath is reasonable and intuitive, whereas another might never think to do that. You can't predict how the player will reason, especially in a game so heavily RNG based. One player tolerates 80 display hit as a tolerable chance, another one doesn't, etc.

I disagree. When I first played through FE9 I made the intuitive choice to give Mia an energy drop and wrath when I saw her STR was low, but not THAT low, and realized how potent Vantage/Wrath was. Might there have been better choice? Sure. Was it a poor choice? No. I didn't have access to the internet at the time either so I couldn't have checked Gamefaqs or the like. Not to mention that there is no guarentee a player can't look stuff up beforehand.

And you're right... except an 'efficiency' tier list also assumes a player is gunning for low turncounts. As I'm sure many people will attest, even within the list itself, turncounts aren't everything by any means. Any tier-list has to make assumptions about what a player might and might not do. Metaknight is the top of the Brawl tier-list (at last check at least) but he's VERY difficult for sure and certainly nowhere near as easy to use as someone like, say, Pikachu. Yet Pikachu is not above Metaknight despite that most casual players probably lack the skill/time to make Metaknight good. Just because something has to be assumed doesn't make the result invalid. You are assuming you are going to work tomorrow, but you're also assuming gravity doesn't shut off on some divine whim as well. There is a big difference between a reasonable assumption (that the player will know enough to utilize resources well towards his goal) and an unreasonable one. Things like the Micaiah sacrifice/wrath combo, while maybe not the *most* intuative, are still on the reasonable side of it though. Something like resetting when using a coin on a forge is not (since it requires the assumption that the player will realize that there is no difference and that they don't just have poor/great luck)

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Snowy, you pretty much just agreed with everything I said. I'm of the opinion that if a unit is high tier based on some obscure strategy (say some clever skill combination or resource allocation), that's perfectly fine. I guess it sucks that most tier rankings in the OP would require monstrous footnotes to understand the intricate logic behind them, but that's life.

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Intuitive is the wrong word for what I'm talking about, so I'm not going to make any assumptions about the name.

Sacrifice and wrath is a good combo. Sacrifice reduces you to low HP, Wrath makes you crit more if you have low HP. It can be proved by a low level of research, and nobody can deny that using sacrifice makes wrath more effective.

The best use of Jill is not so clear-cut. With a high level of research, Olwen proved the best use of Jill in LTC play. Without the constraints of LTC, it is practically impossible to prove one singular resource package is objectively the best.

By contrast, figuring the best way to use everyone in top tier is easy because they come pre-assembled. If Jill was truly on their level, there would be no debate as to how to use her. Therefore, I propose that the highest she goes is just below Nailah.

Edited by Huck Finn
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By contrast, figuring the best way to use everyone in top tier is easy because they come pre-assembled. If Jill was truly on their level, there would be no debate as to how to use her. Therefore, I propose that the highest she goes is just below Nailah.

Why would that conclusion require a high amount of research? It's pretty obvious in most FE games (where the rescue command exists, anyway) that you should heavily favor your earliest joining, highest mobility unit unless their combat is really unsalvagable, like FE6 HM Thany.

Edited by Vykan_12
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Not really. That assumes you are specifically going for LTC as opposed to, well, not and learning LTC strategies takes time to research them. Jill may very well be 'all that' when people put in the time to research what makes her great, but without that she's... less potent.

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Many of the upper tier characters on this list "need" something to be more potent- Haar/Titania want Speedwings, Sothe wants forged throwing knives etc. I don't see how Jill's case is tremendously different.

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Many of the upper tier characters on this list "need" something to be more potent- Haar/Titania want Speedwings, Sothe wants forged throwing knives etc. I don't see how Jill's case is tremendously different.

jill needs a lot more things for starters, and thus requires an indiana jones leap of faith for guaranteed* results

this list is merely swarming with people not worthy enough for the holy grail, who'd probably chose the gold cup when they got to the knight anyway

meanwhile though what's with all the people saying jill's gonna be better than haar in part 4, from what I'm seeing there's no way she can even compare to him in levels at any point of the game

in fact the level question is something people keep waving around as if it's a done deal, and why i placed that asterisk next to guaranteed up there. how is jill hitting 20/5 (or was it 20/3), her supposedly necessary level threshold to not dick up in 3-6? that's 11 levels she needs to gain from 1-6 to 3-6, in which she is available for 4 chapters (counting 1-6-1 and 1-6-2). Not to mention, in 1-7 and 1-F, Jill has to compete with not only better but much faster units (thanks to indoor terrain gimp) for experience. How is Jill getting exceptional amounts of exp in either of those chapters, when douchebags like muarim and nailah are running amok? And I guess 1-6-2 has some like 2 turn strat or whatever where Jill gets a boss kill but one boss kill isn't giving her bookoo bucks in the exp department. and even maxing out bexp you're not making what you would need to steroids blast her into the godhead she supposedly can be by 3-6

So yeah, someone explain how jill's getting all this exp she needs, and then explain how she's getting from 20/5 or whatever in 3-6 to haar-level competitive by part 4

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I made a post yesterday that suggested Jill (T) needed to only be around 20/1 with the boosters and with no BEXP to survive two 32-Atk Tigers and a 39-Atk Tiger in 3-6 at reasonable odds. I'm not sure what her training regimen looks like, though. The Energy Drop helps her gain EXP a bit more easily, according to Celes--with transfers, the Drop, and a +5-Mt Iron Axe, Jill can OHKO Mages in 1-6-1 and do some other things.

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I think we need to talk about perspective. This tier list is obviously designed with veteran players in mind, and while using Jill might not be obvious on the first playthrough (though arguably it is obvious since you have some total scrubs around who Jill easily replaces), in hindsight you are going to lose time if you don't train someone else alongside the OP units of part 1. When you get to part 3, even though Sothe is top tier we know he can't handle the EP as well as a trained Nolan or Jill, by virtue of his inability to promote and little room to improve as a rogue. His maximum durabilty is far below Jill, Nolan, or Volug. Volug has to manage olivi grass, which means his player phase is somewhat restricted compared to Nolan or Jill who can either use healing items or attack another enemy whenever they want, plus his lock to 1-range becomes a lot more relevant when he can't use the defensive high ground the DBs frequently have to his advantage. Tauroneo simply isn't going anywhere unless Jill airlifts him. I think generally speaking on a 2nd playthrough they'll be looking more in-depth into solving the problems of the DB, namely that overusing Muarim/Vika/Tormod/Nailah is a bad strategy because they up and vanish, and that you need to invest in somebody beyond Sothe, Volug, and Tauroneo because those three used alone are going to make part 3 inefficient. Honestly I think Jill and Nolan are more valuable than transfer Oscar and Mia, since the top tier GMs are much stronger than Sothe/Volug/Tauroneo and can handle so much more on their own.

Also, Celes probably invested BEXP into Jill to promote her as opposed to using a seal after 1-6, since I otherwise don't know how you could LTC and still feed Jill enough levels to promote at level 20. BEXP generally hasn't been discussed though. Due to the way BEXP works, if we topped Jill up that way, she'd likely skew her speed and double even more enemies than we give her credit for. However, BEXP distribution is a complex beast and is one of those things that is a lot trickier than doling out boosters in my opinion.

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Many of the upper tier characters on this list "need" something to be more potent- Haar/Titania want Speedwings, Sothe wants forged throwing knives etc. I don't see how Jill's case is tremendously different.

There is a huge difference between a forge, which is obvious and there are plenty of (and can usually be swapped between characters, though Sothe is an exception due to knives), and an item of which there is a very limited quantity being spent for a one-time use that can't be taken back in any way should Jill be replaced. Using an item, especially to the 'best' of it's utility requires carefully figuring out just who actually can use it good and, of those, which units use them the best and weighing the choices. A forged knife? Worst you lose is some easily replaceable G (maybe not the the DB, but on the whole) and maybe a coin if you tried to enhance it.

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So yeah, someone explain how jill's getting all this exp she needs, and then explain how she's getting from 20/5 or whatever in 3-6 to haar-level competitive by part 4

She doesn't need 'exceptional' amounts of exp in Part 1, just 20/1 or an equivalent. Laguz give high exp in Part 3 and she has access to Paragon, as well as the BEXP the DB gets in Part 3.

Also, Celes probably invested BEXP into Jill to promote her as opposed to using a seal after 1-6, since I otherwise don't know how you could LTC and still feed Jill enough levels to promote at level 20. BEXP generally hasn't been discussed though. Due to the way BEXP works, if we topped Jill up that way, she'd likely skew her speed and double even more enemies than we give her credit for. However, BEXP distribution is a complex beast and is one of those things that is a lot trickier than doling out boosters in my opinion.

The best way for the DB to use BEXP is probably to put it all onto one person- you don't get much of it and most DB units aren't worth training in the first place. Really, only Jill and Nolan can reasonably reach the parameters to clear 3-6 and 3-12 in reasonable time, as well as killing Ike more reliably in 3-13 and contributing in Part 4. Jill's Spd and flight gives her an edge over Nolan.

You could BEXP Volug too I suppose, although the problem with Volug is that he can't clear 3-12 and is significantly worse in Part 4.

There is a huge difference between a forge, which is obvious and there are plenty of (and can usually be swapped between characters, though Sothe is an exception due to knives), and an item of which there is a very limited quantity being spent for a one-time use that can't be taken back in any way should Jill be replaced. Using an item, especially to the 'best' of it's utility requires carefully figuring out just who actually can use it good and, of those, which units use them the best and weighing the choices. A forged knife? Worst you lose is some easily replaceable G (maybe not the the DB, but on the whole) and maybe a coin if you tried to enhance it.

Knowing what forges to make when and general gold expenditure in general can be rather complex- it may not be 'intuitive' that forged 1-2 range weapons are extremely good. You also managed to completely ignore the point about Haar and Titania while focusing in on a singular example.

Edited by -Cynthia-
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even if you forget to give haar a speedwing he's still better than anyone else in this game assuming you forgot to give anyone else resources as well

also, when a major debate point is that getting someone to x level is possible because literally "someone did it once", although nobody knows exactly how it was done, what purpose is there to this debate

not even the ltc vanguard are playing this game the way we're arguing unit worth should be decided by

placing jill at the top of this list means absolutely nothing to anyone, not just "casual people" or "intuition" bullshit

the problem isn't whether LTC is a yay or a nay, but rather whether this list has somehow drifted beyond the played experience of LTC into theoryland, a place not so unakin to fairyland

Edited by General Banzai
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even if you forget to give haar a speedwing he's still better than anyone else in this game assuming you forgot to give anyone else resources as well

placing jill at the top of this list means absolutely nothing to anyone, not just "casual people" or "intuition" bullshit

no one is putting jill (N) at the top

if you forget to give jill (T) some resources, she's still better than most other units in this game

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even if you forget to give haar a speedwing he's still better than anyone else in this game assuming you forgot to give anyone else resources as well

also, when a major debate point is that getting someone to x level is possible because literally "someone did it once", although nobody knows exactly how it was done, what purpose is there to this debate

not even the ltc vanguard are playing this game the way we're arguing unit worth should be decided by

placing jill at the top of this list means absolutely nothing to anyone, not just "casual people" or "intuition" bullshit

the problem isn't whether LTC is a yay or a nay, but rather whether this list has somehow drifted beyond the played experience of LTC into theoryland, a place not so unakin to fairyland

If we forget to give resources to units, how are we maximizing Haar's flight and the heron refresh abilities and a number of other 'nonintuitive' things? If this were an 'average player' tier list a number things need to be shifted around, not just keeping Jill low.

I've gotten Jill to 20/1 before by Part 3 as well- gave her some kills and used the Part 1 BEXP on her. I've already explained the factors that contribute to her exp gain in Part 3. Jill(N) > Nolan is highly consistent with my personal efficiency experiences, he just did not manage the same combat output that she did and she could fly. Jill(T) in Top doesn't even need anything besides a single Robe so most of the arguments in here don't apply to her regardless.

Edited by -Cynthia-
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Just looking briefly at his videos, Celes got Jill to Lv. 16.87 by the end of 1-7. He promoted Jill for 1-E (unfortunately, I don't think he detailed any BEXP shenanigans he may have done) and got 80 EXP for her in that stage. So that's 387 combat EXP.

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Also, I'm confused because I'm pretty sure (could be horribly wrong, I didn't see it anywhere in the OP, so doing that ass-u-me thing) that this is an HM tier list, and doesn't that require you to have beaten the game once? So surely players would have some knowledge of the game beforehand.

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Many of the upper tier characters on this list "need" something to be more potent- Haar/Titania want Speedwings, Sothe wants forged throwing knives etc. I don't see how Jill's case is tremendously different.

That's one thing that sees immediate results, Jill needs many things that see eventual results.

That said, I forgot about Jill (T). I don't disagree with what you said there.

For Jill (N), I think Nolan will be at her level when she joins, they have similar growths, he can keep up with her considering we're only going as fast as the BEXP limits. Part 4 she will win because terrain and unlike 3-6, we're on the offensive. Jill (N) > Nolan, but I don't see anyone between them.

Tibarn and Shinon needs to go up. I'll make a proper case later.

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That's one thing that sees immediate results, Jill needs many things that see eventual results.

That said, I forgot about Jill (T). I don't disagree with what you said there.

For Jill (N), I think Nolan will be at her level when she joins, they have similar growths, he can keep up with her considering we're only going as fast as the BEXP limits. Part 4 she will win because terrain and unlike 3-6, we're on the offensive. Jill (N) > Nolan, but I don't see anyone between them.

Tibarn and Shinon needs to go up. I'll make a proper case later.

I don't disagree with your conclusions, but since when are we only going as fast as the BEXP limits? Following the BEXP guidelines would require a lot of reorganization overall as the turncounts are significantly less strict compared to efficiency.

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