OMG it's a tier list

[PKL]

Yes, Jill (T) is definetely a Top Tier unit. Note her base durability:

24 HP 15(!) Def

A robe makes that 31 HP 15 Def and a Dracoshield makes it 31 HP 17 Def, promoting alone has her at 33 HP 19 Def. I mean, come on, no one can compete with that kind of bulkiness in the DB. On top of that, she flies in a team that doesn't have flight. Why isn't she considered the best DB already? Note how she also has 17 spd with transfers, promoting alone has her at 18 spd with a 60ish spd growth. I think it's pretty obvious that she is the best recipient of defensive boosters. Nolan can't even match Jill's durability realistically and has to use Tarvos to even come close to competing. Sothe starts out as one of the most bulky DBs, but he can't compete with Jill either. Volug also can't compete with her. She should be in Top tier above overrated Volug for sure. I disagree with whoever said she's better than Haar though >_>. I mean, come on that's just going too far.

Edited October 11, 2013 by PKL

[Espinosa]

Let me think how quickly this verdict would've been made if the past few pages weren't dedicated to simultaneously arguing against the claim that Jill can't be touched with a ten foot-pole and one that Jill is the next best thing since sliced bread compared to the irrepairably mediocre Haar.

[Snowy_One]

Somehow I think Jill is getting a bit overhyped in this situation. I'm not disagreeing with her moving up or down, just asking 'are we sure this isn't us just noticing/really thinking about something we never did before and shooting her up as a result?'

[dondon151]

Somehow I think Jill is getting a bit overhyped in this situation. I'm not disagreeing with her moving up or down, just asking 'are we sure this isn't us just noticing/really thinking about something we never did before and shooting her up as a result?'

hello, every change to the tier list ever made

[General Banzai]

Why don't we swap Jill with Volug

Just completely exchange their positions

And while we're at it remove herons from the tier list because their value is in no way comparable to any other unit in the game

That way all that's happening is Volug moving down one spot and Jill moving up one spot

Edited October 11, 2013 by General Banzai

[Florete]

Jill(T) should be above Volug I say. Aside from 1-8, there are no chapters that they share where Volug wins and he has only one chapter before she joins. That's a pretty huge difference, although this gets back to the Volug not actually being a Top tier unit deal.

Volug is undeniably better in every part 1 map. He's pretty much outright beating her statistically until she promotes.

Then part 3 comes and the only map she clearly wins is 3-12. She's still not perfect coming into 3-6, but Volug is fine once he gets transformed. The fact that 3-6 and 3-13 are all Laguz enemies means his lack of 2 range almost doesn't even matter.

It's only in part 4 where Jill really starts winning.

Yes, Jill (T) is definetely a Top Tier unit. Note her base durability:

24 HP 15(!) Def

A robe makes that 31 HP 15 Def and a Dracoshield makes it 31 HP 17 Def, promoting alone has her at 33 HP 19 Def. I mean, come on, no one can compete with that kind of bulkiness in the DB.

She just had to eat two stat boosters and get an early promotion to do it. I know she doesn't need to promote right away, but it's misleading to use her base promoted durability like it's an advantage for her immediately.

Oh, no one can compete? Really?

-Give Sothe both of those and he has 40 HP and 16-17 Def. He also has the +15 avoid boost from Micaiah. 7 more HP, 2-3 less Def (well, if Jill is promoted), more avoid. Definitely comparable.

-Give Volug both and he has 56 HP and 16 Def (until part 3 where it will be 22). 20+ more HP. Like really. Less Def halfshifted, but more in part 3.

-A bit later, 20/1 Nolan with both + Tarvos has 44-45 HP and 18 Def to Jill's 20/1 36 HP and 19 Def. "But Tarvos has no 2 range!" Neither do Laguz.

On top of that, she flies in a team that doesn't have flight.

This would be cool if her flight mattered more. What does it do? It can be helpful 1-6-2, but really nowhere else in part 1. It could have been good in 1-7 and 1-E if it weren't for her movement penalty and the existence of Volug/Muarim/Nailah. It could have been helpful in 1-8 if she were there.

Part 3? More self-help than legitimate help in 3-6. Good in 3-12. Alright in 3-13, but movement penalty is back.

Nolan can't even match Jill's durability realistically and has to use Tarvos to even come close to competing. Sothe starts out as one of the most bulky DBs, but he can't compete with Jill either. Volug also can't compete with her. She should be in Top tier above overrated Volug for sure. I disagree with whoever said she's better than Haar though >_>. I mean, come on that's just going too far.

Nice, making claims with no backup whatsoever. Look up above. Or what, were you just assuming Jill has a monopoly on the defensive boosters?

[shadykid]

Let me think how quickly this verdict would've been made if the past few pages weren't dedicated to simultaneously arguing against the claim that Jill can't be touched with a ten foot-pole and one that Jill is the next best thing since sliced bread compared to the irrepairably mediocre Haar.

I'm convinced the guy is a Red Fox plant

[PKL]

But why would I invest statboosters on Nolan or Volug. Investing in Sothe is a joke, right? Jill is a good Part 4 unit, the others really aren't.

[Horakthi]

Jill can't be touched with a ten foot-pole and one that Jill is the next best thing since sliced bread compared to the irrepairably mediocre Haar.

I'm sorry, but that's not what I said. I think Haar is the second best unit behind Jill (T).

Volug is undeniably better in every part 1 map. He's pretty much outright beating her statistically until she promotes.

Then part 3 comes and the only map she clearly wins is 3-12. She's still not perfect coming into 3-6, but Volug is fine once he gets transformed. The fact that 3-6 and 3-13 are all Laguz enemies means his lack of 2 range almost doesn't even matter.

It's only in part 4 where Jill really starts winning.

Can Volug carry Tauroneo in 1-6-2 past the river? No. Jill beats Volug in 1-6-2.

Wtf, how on earth is Jill > Volug even debatable in 3-6? Jill can fly around and move 9 tiles in 3-6. Volug can move 2 tiles transformed. Jill has Canto. Jill doesn't need to smoke grass every other turn. Are you crazy?

How on earth can Volug kill Ike on turn 2 of 3-13? Guess what, he can't.

Bolded part: Rofl. Yeah I give up on this thread. I wish I never posted.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Horakthi

[-Cynthia-]

Volug is undeniably better in every part 1 map. He's pretty much outright beating her statistically until she promotes.

Even at base, Jill(T) has more Mt with a forged Iron Axe than Volug does. She also has access to 1-2 range (Part 1 enemies *do* frequently have 1-2 range) and Hammer access against armored units Volug can't ORKO. Her flight is useful for 1-6(1) to rout the Pegasus Knights and 1-6(2) to drop Tauroneo.

We can also promote Jill(T) early with very few negative repercussions- being able to access Paragon makes up for promoted units having reduced exp gain.

[dondon151]

i wouldn't make the claim that volug or jill is better in all shared part 1 maps. jill does something unique in 1-6-2 and they should both be deployed in the remainder of the part 1 maps.

i wanted to bring up the topic of jill (T) moving into top tier again because i wanted to see red fox demonstrate some consistency in her unit evaluations. needless to say, i was disappointed (or should i say delighted to note the lack of consistency because it gives me something to talk about?). on the topic of replaceable utility, we have the following quote:

Jill (T) can be replaced by others, though. It will just make part 3 maps take a turn or two more. Similarly, Haar is not completely replaceable by Titania; there are certain maps where he can make things happen faster than her.

first of all, your first statement already makes a self-contradiction. actually, this entire paragraph is a hilarious self-contradiction. jill (T) is replaceable, but her maps will just take a little longer. haar is not replaceable, because if you did... his maps will just take a little longer. this is inconsistency at its finest - strike one.

but okay, let me make a concession here and set aside this replaceability tangent. i'll concede that haar is better than jill (T) because he exists for more maps and isn't as resource-intensive. the current argument is whether jill (T) should be in top tier, not in easy mode tier. this is an important distinction to make so that the discussion doesn't get sidetracked again. here is a quote that contains a relevant allusion to titania:

Jill is impressive for 3 maps before part 4. Haar is impressive for 11. Yes, some of what he does is replicable, but he's still pretty much the best at it (only Titania really competes, but her durability gives her problems at times where Haar would be fine). Jill is in the same boat, only she doesn't start nearly as good and isn't as good for as long. Yes, even Jill(T). Haar comes and is basically the best on his team forever while Jill has a lot to compete with in part 1.

this was in response to an argument by horakthi that asserted jill (T) > haar, so it's no surprise that, to paraphrase your argument, you justified your disagreement by stating that jill was just like haar, only for a shorter period of time ("he's still pretty much the best at it... jill is in the same boat."). that was only as low as you had to aim. but of course, when the argument shifted to jill moving to top tier, you had to aim even lower:

Then part 3 comes and the only map she clearly wins is 3-12. She's still not perfect coming into 3-6, but Volug is fine once he gets transformed. The fact that 3-6 and 3-13 are all Laguz enemies means his lack of 2 range almost doesn't even matter.

It's only in part 4 where Jill really starts winning.

you can't provide an example of jill winning in part 3 and then claim that jill doesn't "really" win until part 4. this is just a blatant self-contradiction. nevermind the fact that you just kind of ignored 3-13 when it's impossible to 2-turn with volug due to transformation requirements, so she also wins in that map (by the way, 3-13 is before part 4). strike two.

the elephant in the room now, though, is titania. what about her? in your haar > jill (T) argument, you basically trashed titania by stating that haar is strictly better than she is. that's okay if you want to argue haar > jill (T), but not okay if you also want to argue that jill (T) should not be top tier, because titania is the queen of top tier. in your own words, jill, who is in the same boat as haar, should not share a tier with titania, who cannot replace haar. and that's strike three.

[General Banzai]

if "they're both getting deployed in that map" is an argument, that nullifies the tier list altogether

because then we're grading strategies, not units

[BBM]

if "they're both getting deployed in that map" is an argument, that nullifies the tier list altogether

because then we're grading strategies, not units

Not really. It's an acknowledgement that they're both good units and are both going to be deployed. But that doesn't mean that we can't judge which one is more helpful. You're not grading strategies, you're grading the usefulness of the units to those strategies.

If Jill in 3-6 is only self-help, what is Volug? How does he help to the faster clearing of 3-6?

[General Banzai]

Not really. It's an acknowledgement that they're both good units and are both going to be deployed. But that doesn't mean that we can't judge which one is more helpful. You're not grading strategies, you're grading the usefulness of the units to those strategies.

If Jill in 3-6 is only self-help, what is Volug? How does he help to the faster clearing of 3-6?

but if units are only in binary categories of "used" and "not used", then why rank them at all

in a perfect play scenario, which is what some people are pushing for this tier to represent, you are going to more or less use a specific strategy in which some units are used and some are not. Which is "more helpful" is irrelevant because in the context of that particular "perfect" strategy, you are using all of them. Nolan, Jill, and Haar would all be equally necessary to pull off that particular strategy, and trying to classify one over the other as being "more integral" to a strategy of moving parts in which nothing can be the slightest bit out of place merely makes the list mean nothing

[Hawk King]

Jill(T) is at least bottom of Easy mode tier. Many people think she's either better than Haar or just below him. Why the hell is she still below Volug? Let alone Sothe who mind as well not exist in part 4.

And Jill(N)'s placement is a joke. If Jill(T) doesnt do anything special until 3-13 then surely Jill(N) can get tough enough to make the same contributions at that point in the game if all she is doing is self-improving until then.

[ClLoulD]

We have to use that assertion to some maps though, for example Haar makes a much bigger contribution than other units on maps like 2-E and the supply camp chapter and one of these reasons is because of his flight ability, yes he is a powerhouse unit as it already stands but his ability to fly over obstacles makes him even more valueable, no doubt having a unit like Jill in the swamp chapter would raise her usefulness as well.

[Florete]

But why would I invest statboosters on Nolan or Volug. Investing in Sothe is a joke, right? Jill is a good Part 4 unit, the others really aren't.

Jill makes the longest use of them, but she doesn't get them for free. You can't compare a Jill with boosters to other units without them as though that's always the case.

Can Volug carry Tauroneo in 1-6-2 past the river? No. Jill beats Volug in 1-6-2.

This is a fair point (I remembered Jill not being able to do it without being promoted for some reason, but I checked and it is possible), but if we're making a quick clear like this, where is Jill getting all the experience she needs? I honestly want to know how she gets 6 levels in 3 maps.

Wtf, how on earth is Jill > Volug even debatable in 3-6? Jill can fly around and move 9 tiles in 3-6. Volug can move 2 tiles transformed. Jill has Canto. Jill doesn't need to smoke grass every other turn. Are you crazy?

Care to check stats, perhaps? Needing to grass every other turn barely even matters because every enemy is 1 range.

How on earth can Volug kill Ike on turn 2 of 3-13? Guess what, he can't.

Even I'm starting to wonder how much we actually value turns in here. I mean, yeah, I made arguments about specific turns (and I admitted Jill saves a turn or two in each part 3 map - though I'm not actually sure about 3-6), but you were the one who said your arguments weren't strictly about turns.

This is part of why I wanted to change the direction of the tier list. Even I'm getting confused as to how much I should value different things in these arguments.

i wanted to bring up the topic of jill (T) moving into top tier again because i wanted to see red fox demonstrate some consistency in her unit evaluations. needless to say, i was disappointed (or should i say delighted to note the lack of consistency because it gives me something to talk about?). on the topic of replaceable utility, we have the following quote:

Your ego only gets ever more inflated.

first of all, your first statement already makes a self-contradiction. actually, this entire paragraph is a hilarious self-contradiction. jill (T) is replaceable, but her maps will just take a little longer. haar is not replaceable, because if you did... his maps will just take a little longer. this is inconsistency at its finest - strike one.

Jill is replaceable in the sense that she isn't required to clear the map - and in this case, doesn't really make a huge difference, either. That's all I meant. People say "irreplaceable" like it's some huge thing when in most cases one can achieve similar, if inferior, results, not really losing anything except a turn or two (which I'm led to believe is what matters here but fuck if I know how much). In a strict sense, yes, Jill is the only Jill and is therefore irreplaceable, but I can say the same about Fiona and I don't think anyone is touting her "irreplaceable" horse as any kind of advantage.

Looking back, I'm really not sure what I meant with the Haar thing. As it stands, yes, that would be a blatant contradiction. I think what I meant to say is that any way in which Jill is "irreplaceable," so too is Haar. I added the "completely" in the statement so I would be saying that there are certain things Haar can do that are indeed replicable.

you can't provide an example of jill winning in part 3 and then claim that jill doesn't "really" win until part 4. this is just a blatant self-contradiction.

Uh, why not? All I meant was that Jill wins one map until part 4 where she is "winning" winning. As in, she continues to be winning. I didn't say she never wins until part 4.

Whether or not she wins 3-13 kinda depends on how much we care about turns and how superpowered she's actually expected to be at that point. One does not simply run (or fly) up and ORKO Ike.

the elephant in the room now, though, is titania. what about her? in your haar > jill (T) argument, you basically trashed titania by stating that haar is strictly better than she is. that's okay if you want to argue haar > jill (T), but not okay if you also want to argue that jill (T) should not be top tier, because titania is the queen of top tier. in your own words, jill, who is in the same boat as haar, should not share a tier with titania, who cannot replace haar. and that's strike three.

The flaw in your whole "strike" system here is that I've not disagreed with Jill(T) in top, I just didn't realize it had been well-agreed upon and I don't think she's better than Volug. I can roll with Jill(T) going to top.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Ike yet.

[nflchamp]

Jill(T) at the bottom of Top is high as I'd want her to go. After that and I think we're just flat out ignoring the cost of resources.

[BBM]

I'm fine with Jill (T) at the bottom of Top if Volug goes down to top of High, or at least below Jill in Top (though then I guess Jill is no longer bottom of Top).

Volug might not have a range problem in 3-6, but Jill's bigger advantage there is that she flies in a swamp map. You call it self-improvement but I'm still not seeing how Volug is killing more enemies than Jill when he can't reach them as quickly as she can. RFoF, you keep saying that Jill only wins like 2-3 maps before Part 4, but why are we discounting Part 4? That's Jill's best part and Volug's worst. Yes, the Jeigan argument applies, but Part 4 is a good chunk of their shared existence, and part of why it's easy is because of how much Jill dominates some of her maps. Namely the desert, but also endgame. You can't just put it aside. And even if we don't just 2-turn 3-13 or whatever, after killing a large amount of enemies in 3-6 and 3-12, she outstrips Volug in combat at this point.

Volug wins 1-5, 1-6-1, 1-7, 1-8, and 1-E. Jill wins 1-6-2, 3-6, 3-12, 3-13, 4-P, 4-3, and 4-E (I'll count that as all one map). Jill wins more. And more importantly, whereas Volug is fairly useless in those Part 4 maps. Jill is still useful in Part 1, because she's still killing stuff in this self-improvement period of her's even if Volug is a bit more useful. And even if Volug is better than Jill, he's still not the best in 1-8 and 1-E, with Nailah around. Meanwhile, Jill is the best in Part 4. I think all this outstrips the resources that Jill takes when most of them aren't all that heavily contested anyways.

[Florete]

It is a close call. I mean, I've got them right next to each other on the list. It's no surprise that Jill might give Volug a run for his money. But the main reason I'm not really considering part 4 despite agreeing with Jill being part of the reason it's easier is a combination of the Jagen argument and it just being a reversal of part 1; Jill is better, but Volug is hardly useless. He's not specifically saving turns or anything, but he's still plenty good at taking out enemies and he functions well in any route. But the Jagen part applies - he didn't have to go through this "lesser" period - the resource cost exists for Jill, and while Jill is part of the reason for it, part 4 simply is easier. You've got Jill, and you've got Tibarn, Naesala, Nailah (again), as well as other units you've trained who are better at this point than they were before.

[BBM]

Volug had a lot of trouble ORKOing in Part 4 for me but I'm not sure how much Strike rank mine had and I haven't really played the game enough to be aware of exactly how much he can ORKO if he has maxed out Strike. But I remember him being basically just there to give support bonuses to someone or the other. Tibarn and Nailah are most likely not going to compete directly with Jill, and are therefore irrelevant to how much she does on her maps. Naesala is there but I actually consider him worse than a properly trained Jill at that point because 1-2 range is actually somewhat common among enemies, and Jill's offence and durability is more than good enough at this point even if it's not Royal level. At the very least she's holding her own. Volug, however, has no advantages over them whatsoever.

The Jeigan factor is a thing but IMO should only apply if the amount of maps where the Jeigan is king are greater than the amount where the growth unit wins, and depending on how far behind he is in the maps where he isn't number #1.

[dondon151]

volug isn't really any good in part 4 unless you gave him, like, all the kills in part 3. if he can't get to SS strike (which is very difficult if the player is also using jill or nolan), then he won't ORKO much at all in part 4.

[General Banzai]

i think spending so much time debating jill (t) is a waste of time because almost anyone playing this game is doing it either with no transfers or not the transfers jill (t) is listed to have

"oh hey you see this character who has been given steroids which you the player might not even have the capability of giving her? she's the best character in the game!"

[shadykid]

i think spending so much time debating jill (t) is a waste of time because almost anyone playing this game is doing it either with no transfers or not the transfers jill (t) is listed to have

"oh hey you see this character who has been given steroids which you the player might not even have the capability of giving her? she's the best character in the game!"

why can't I hold all the strawman arguments!

[PKL]

I'm pretty sure a lot of people would have some amount of transfers going into RD. I know I did when I first played RD. It was only Jill soren Ike Marcia and Neph and they werent optimized, but I had them.