OMG it's a tier list

[Lord Raven]

Does anyone else give Volug Resolve while he smokes the Grass? That way he has a fighting chance against the enemies when they're attacking him (evasion and preventing double attacks) and he can somewhat securely get to beast form. 55 base HP is a shitload. And he gains plenty of EXP from attacking untransformed too.

[Florete]

And Jill will have a hard time supporting. She's a wyvern, she's good for surprise attacks. She's a hit and run kind of person, she'll be flying, going elsewhere, etc. She's going to be doing her own thing, and this is if you even use her, and there's a chance you aren't.

Since I'm supporting her with Volug, I am using her. Since she's my only flier and a good axe user, I am using her. Since she's a good support partner for Volug, they are supporting. Obviously you don't use Jill enough, because supporting someone in a game where anyone can support anyone is easy. Just because she flies doesn't mean she won't be with your team. By your strategy, she's most likely to end up in the bulk of your team anyway.

You say Avoid > defense. While that may be true, 30 avoid > no avoid and 2 defense > no defense.

3-6: Volug is not even doubling or 2hkoing the stuff here. He's taking more damage.

Bullshit. 26 base AS says he's doubling everything.

3-12: He can't do anything. Enemies will overwhelm him.

I can't think of a counter because I can't see how this is an argument.

3-13: Same thing with 3-6, except worse since Volug can barely level.

Except better because he can wall with his awesome durability and full Jill support, and possibly even a strike level by now.

You have to use Olivi Grass MUCH more frequently. Micaiah/Laura can use Physic, so they won't be needing a Vulnerary that much. Nolan and Zihark are dodge machines anyway so they probably won't need healing and they can easily afford to waste a turn with a Vulnerary.

Using Olivi Grass is fine because he's the only unit on the team who can use it. He's still more of a wall than a cannon anyway. It's a small price to pay and doesn't lower his usefulness.

Nolan and Zihark are. Sothe too but SOMETIMES

Only as much as Volug is. Plus, Volug not one-rounding is often just as good as bad. He gets the same experience either way but he lets another unit get a kill while still getting just as much Strike experience.

Tier list is about efficiency, completing fast, etc. It's going against this. With beorc units, you can charge a bit.

In one of the chapters he's using Olivi Grass, there's a turn limit. In the other two, there's a kill limit. No matter what, these maps will be finished within a rather low number of turn, usually ~8-10.

Mekkah covered everything else.

Let me ask you this: why would you put a unit who is only useful for 6 maps in high tier?

9 to be correct. And do you suggest I take Tibarn down? He's in High and only useful for 7 maps. Even less than Volug.

[Seph]

Since I'm supporting her with Volug, I am using her. Since she's my only flier and a good axe user, I am using her. Since she's a good support partner for Volug, they are supporting. Obviously you don't use Jill enough, because supporting someone in a game where anyone can support anyone is easy. Just because she flies doesn't mean she won't be with your team. By your strategy, she's most likely to end up in the bulk of your team anyway.

Jill is doing her own stuff, flying, working away from Volug..

1-6-1 - She will be flying and killing pegasus and stuff.

1-6-2 - She can ignore the two bridges. She'll be away from Volug. Note that you don't have infinite time in a tier list.

1-7 - Only place where this is valid.

1-8 - Flying is a gigantic help here. No time for Volug.

1-9 - No.

1-F - She can fly up directly.

She is not getting an A support by 3-6. That's nonsense.

You say Avoid > defense. While that may be true, 30 avoid > no avoid and 2 defense > no defense.

It's not an A support.

Bullshit. 26 base AS says he's doubling everything.

I'm talking about Wildheart. He doesn't have 26 AS.

I can't think of a counter because I can't see how this is an argument.

...How is this not an argument? He can't do shit in 3-12, that's an argument making him less useful.

Except better because he can wall with his awesome durability and full Jill support, and possibly even a strike level by now.

Nolan and Zihark should be walling, since they actually get exp. Volug and Sothe should be killing hawks and stuff.

Using Olivi Grass is fine because he's the only unit on the team who can use it. He's still more of a wall than a cannon anyway. It's a small price to pay and doesn't lower his usefulness.

That has nothing to do with the amount of times you have to use Olivi Grass, which is just absurd.

Only as much as Volug is. Plus, Volug not one-rounding is often just as good as bad. He gets the same experience either way but he lets another unit get a kill while still getting just as much Strike experience.

At Part 1 when Volug is not one rounding, Micaiah is probably capped, and Jill is flying around helping others, she doesn't have time for that.

In one of the chapters he's using Olivi Grass, there's a turn limit. In the other two, there's a kill limit. No matter what, these maps will be finished within a rather low number of turn, usually ~8-10.

You can still finish chapters in a lower amount of turns by not using Olivi Grass AND you get more exp. Which is more efficient.

Mekkah covered everything else.

All of which I answered.

9 to be correct. And do you suggest I take Tibarn down? He's in High and only useful for 7 maps. Even less than Volug.

Tibarn is in chapters in which he is almost essential in. He's god incarnate. He's very useful for the uber bosses and etc.

Volug does not have that shit.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Julius

[Florete]

1-6-1 - She will be flying and killing pegasus and stuff.

1-6-2 - She can ignore the two bridges. She'll be away from Volug. Note that you don't have infinite time in a tier list.

For these, she's still at base level and not wildly durable. After the rounds of peggies are gone, she's likely sticking with the bulk of your team.

1-8 - Flying is a gigantic help here. No time for Volug.

She's not there.

1-F - She can fly up directly

And get murdered? Jarod has 3 authority stars, meaning the enemies can gangrape her if she's alone. Volug can get up there faster than Jill can anyway.

She is not getting an A support by 3-6. That's nonsense.

A B at least, which, from my experience, is also what Zihark and Nolan will likely have at this point.

It's not an A support.

At 3-12 it is. If you want to get that nit-picky, 20 avoid and 1 defense > no avoid and no defense.

I'm talking about Wildheart. He doesn't have 26 AS.

Lol at still using Wildheart when he can fully transform.

...How is this not an argument? He can't do shit in 3-12, that's an argument making him less useful.

How is it an argument? Tell me, what "shit" can he not do? He's got the highest movement in your team (tied with Jill and Fiona) and likely the highest AS at 26.

Nolan and Zihark should be walling, since they actually get exp. Volug and Sothe should be killing hawks and stuff.

Where's the part where Volug is sucking?

That has nothing to do with the amount of times you have to use Olivi Grass, which is just absurd

His gauge goes down 4 every turn and 3 every battle. At a rate of one enemy a turn, you'll only be considering using Olivi Grass once every 3 turns. That's not bad.

At Part 1 when Volug is not one rounding, Micaiah is probably capped, and Jill is flying around helping others, she doesn't have time for that.

Good job not countering the argument at hand. <_<

You can still finish chapters in a lower amount of turns by not using Olivi Grass AND you get more exp. Which is more efficient.

Anything to back this up? From my experience, it makes no difference, and Volug was still at base level. Same turn count, just easier. Plus, there is no such thing as experience effiency in this game.

All of which I answered.

And then I re-countered.

Tibarn is in chapters in which he is almost essential in. He's god incarnate. He's very useful for the uber bosses and etc.

Volug is in chapters in which he is almost essential in. He's god incarnate. He's very useful for the uber bosses and etc.

That sentence fits Volug better than Tibarn. Tibarn is amazing, but not as "necessary" for his chapters as Volug is.

[Seph]

For these, she's still at base level and not wildly durable. After the rounds of peggies are gone, she's likely sticking with the bulk of your team.

Charging in this tier list is important. Peggie reinforcements come from everywhere. So you have to kill all of them before they pick you apart. Jill is perfect for this job. Weapon triangle advantage, and her defence is good enough to take little damage from the pegs.

In 1-6-2, you have to split into two. Jill will be hitting and running. She just can't stay stuck to Volug all the time.

This is one chapter anyway. Note that you don't have infinite time in chapters. You will probably not a get a support in this, because of peg slaughter fest in 1-6-1.

She's not there.

Sweet.

And get murdered? Jarod has 3 authority stars, meaning the enemies can gangrape her if she's alone. Volug can get up there faster than Jill can anyway.

Alone? She's not going to be that far away. She'll fly up from the beginning. I thought of that you know.

Volug is almost useless in that chapter anyway.

And get murdered? Jarod has 3 authority stars, meaning the enemies can gangrape her if she's alone. Volug can get up there faster than Jill can anyway.

I did not say "go alone". She's going to fly up, and snipe a bit. You don't have enough time to make them support here, since you have to charge.

A B at least, which, from my experience, is also what Zihark and Nolan will likely have at this point.

Personal experience is worth nothing, because mine had A.

If you got B Nolan and Zihark, then you probably got a C Volug and Jill.

An A is very possible, unranked. When ranked, it's going to be a C. You don't have enough turns, and Jill will be using her flying skills a lot.

Since you care about personal experience it seems, a C is also what my Jill and Volug had at 1-F and they had C in 3-6 too.

At 3-12 it is. If you want to get that nit-picky, 20 avoid and 1 defense > no avoid and no defense.

Like I said, you should have a C at 3-6, so B in 3-12.

Lol at still using Wildheart when he can fully transform.

I made a fair assumption of both.

How is it an argument? Tell me, what "shit" can he not do? He's got the highest movement in your team (tied with Jill and Fiona) and likely the highest AS at 26.

3-12 and 3-13 defence. If you charge, you'll get overwhelmed like crazy. He can't attack when he constantly has to use an Olivi Grass.. and also you can't transform with Volug during the first turns of the chapters. Fail. And if you play defence too much, it'll take too long.

Where's the part where Volug is sucking?

The only things he will be killing are hawks. And Sothe should be getting those kills for his promotion. So if you think, Volug is not doing ANYTHING in 3-13.

His gauge goes down 4 every turn and 3 every battle. At a rate of one enemy a turn, you'll only be considering using Olivi Grass once every 3 turns. That's not bad.

In 3-6, 3-12 and 3-13, you are constantly, constantly overwhelmed by enemies.. Volug will be doing a lot of battling in 3-6 for example. So he's screwed.

Good job not countering the argument at hand.

You couldn't figure out the message? I was saying that Volug not one rounding is a bad thing, because your other units don't need babying anymore. I thought you could understand that. Sothe, Nolan and Zihark and maybe even Jill are one rounding. Micaiah is capped. Volug is outclassed by your other fighter units.

Anything to back this up? From my experience, it makes no difference, and Volug was still at base level. Same turn count, just easier. Plus, there is no such thing as experience effiency in this game.

In the player phase, instead of smoking an Olivi Grass, you can actually kill something? And in chapters with a needed amount of kills, that's a good thing, it will make the chapters go faster. Smoking Olivi Grass, not cool.

3-6 and 3-12, you'll be overwhelmed by enemy units in the enemy phase and then you have to smoke more Olivi Grass per turn instead of killing something.

3-13? Explained that Volug fails here.

Volug is in chapters in which he is almost essential in. He's god incarnate. He's very useful for the uber bosses and etc.

That sentence fits Volug better than Tibarn. Tibarn is amazing, but not as "necessary" for his chapters as Volug is.

Volug is not essential. He definitely makes the chapters go faster. And he's easily murdered by mages and even physical units! Bosses are not uber but Volug is as strong as your other units after some time, like in 1-7.

Tibarn is like, always stronger, not counting Caineghis.

If Volug didn't have to rely on Olivi Grass, he'd deserve to belong in high, but he has to.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Julius

[Florete]

Charging in this tier list is important. Peggie reinforcements come from everywhere. So you have to kill all of them before they pick you apart. Jill is perfect for this job. Weapon triangle advantage, and her defence is good enough to take little damage from the pegs.

You must have forgotten this is based mostly on hard mode where WT is non-existant.

In 1-6-2, you have to split into two. Jill will be hitting and running. She just can't stay stuck to Volug all the time.

Tauroneo is the one man slaughterfest here. He's the one making things faster, not Jill.

Alone? She's not going to be that far away. She'll fly up from the beginning. I thought of that you know.

Then Volug will still be near her for the majority of the chapter.

I did not say "go alone". She's going to fly up, and snipe a bit. You don't have enough time to make them support here, since you have to charge.

Snipe? With height disadvantage? I highly doubt that. Nailah and the BK are the only ones charging anything so fast.

Personal experience is worth nothing, because mine had A.

Alright, then so did my Jill and Volug.

An A is very possible, unranked. When ranked, it's going to be a C. You don't have enough turns, and Jill will be using her flying skills a lot.

Since when are there any ranks in this game?

Like I said, you should have a C at 3-6, so B in 3-12.

Like I said, an A in 3-12 is perfectly reasonable.

3-12 and 3-13 defence. If you charge, you'll get overwhelmed like crazy. He can't attack when he constantly has to use an Olivi Grass.. and also you can't transform with Volug during the first turns of the chapters. Fail. And if you play defence too much, it'll take too long.

Do you see the irony in this?

The only things he will be killing are hawks. And Sothe should be getting those kills for his promotion. So if you think, Volug is not doing ANYTHING in 3-13.

Why is he only killing hawks? None of your team should be killing them because that's the allies job. Volug, with his awesome Jill support, is a perfect wall to take on Laguz with. There's no reason he won't be doing so.

In 3-6, 3-12 and 3-13, you are constantly, constantly overwhelmed by enemies.. Volug will be doing a lot of battling in 3-6 for example. So he's screwed.

In that case, so is the rest of your team.

You couldn't figure out the message? I was saying that Volug not one rounding is a bad thing, because your other units don't need babying anymore. I thought you could understand that. Sothe, Nolan and Zihark and maybe even Jill are one rounding. Micaiah is capped. Volug is outclassed by your other fighter units.

When was the last time you played that chapter? Volug is one-rounding just as much as anyone else, and even if he isn't, Volug not one-rounding is often just as good as it is bad. He lets another unit get a kill while still getting just as much Strike and CEXP experience.

In the player phase, instead of smoking an Olivi Grass, you can actually kill something? And in chapters with a needed amount of kills, that's a good thing, it will make the chapters go faster. Smoking Olivi Grass, not cool.

Because every character needs to attack something every turn, right? Wrong. There will be times where using Olivi Grass is fine and not wasting anything.

3-6 and 3-12, you'll be overwhelmed by enemy units in the enemy phase and then you have to smoke more Olivi Grass per turn instead of killing something.

That's why he walls. He fights on the enemy phase and smokes on the player phase while your rangers in the back pick off the weakened enemies. Not a tough concept, and highly efficient.

3-13? Explained that Volug fails here

I missed the part where the character with the highest move and some of the highest AS, durability, and power fails.

Volug is not essential. He definitely makes the chapters go faster. And he's easily murdered by mages and even physical units! Bosses are not uber but Volug is as strong as your other units after some time, like in 1-7.

It's not like every enemy is a mage. Even so, he has 49 base HP. He's not getting killed anytime soon. He's more essential for his chapters than Tibarn is for his own. Volug is uber on a weak team. Tibarn is uber on a powerful team. Tibarn might be better when they join, but Volug has done so much to help at this point already.

If Volug didn't have to rely on Olivi Grass, he'd deserve to belong in high, but he has to.

That's just stupid. I've already explained why using Olivi Grass is hardly a bad thing.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Seph]

Sorry, I am having like 3 debates at once, so..

You must have forgotten this is based mostly on hard mode where WT is non-existant.

Based mostly on hard mode, like you said. Also, she's still getting those kills, which you couldn't deny.

Tauroneo is the one man slaughterfest here. He's the one making things faster, not Jill.

Volug doesn't shine then.

Then Volug will still be near her for the majority of the chapter.

Near her. They going to be right next to each other? I don't think so, because Jill can fly from ledges to ledges, and there are millions of those in this chapter. She can kill armors well with a Hammer or something, which Volug fails at.

They can't complete their B support then.

Snipe? With height disadvantage? I highly doubt that. Nailah and the BK are the only ones charging anything so fast.

Snipe was the wrong choice of word, she'll at least be killing.

Alright, then so did my Jill and Volug.

See? Personal experience is nothing.

Since when are there any ranks in this game?

Does this tier list have infinite turns? If you could take infinite turns, then there would be no point in this tier list.

Tier lists show efficiency. Efficiency = playing faster.

Like I said, an A in 3-12 is perfectly reasonable.

We'll see about this once we sort out the previous part.

Do you see the irony in this?

What is wrong with it exactly? It means, if you do too much of the other, then it'll be harmful. 3-13 it doesn't matter, but 3-12 you have to go a little bit forward. Because if you don't then the whole point of the tier list is pretty much for naught.

Why is he only killing hawks? None of your team should be killing them because that's the allies job. Volug, with his awesome Jill support, is a perfect wall to take on Laguz with. There's no reason he won't be doing so.

The best strategy to take on that chapter is to wall the two squares using Nolan and Zihark, block the ledges with whoever you want. Since it's defence, no need to worry about turns.

Volug is TERRIBLE to take on Laguz with. Not only does he gain awful exp, he constantly has to use an Olivi Grass. And you only get 1 Olivi Grass for all of Part 3, for Micaiah of course. That's terrible. 1 Olivi Grass won't last him 3 long chapters.

In 3-6 and 3-12, his Olivi Grass probably finished.

In that case, so is the rest of your team.

Yeah, but Volug's transformation gauge sucks, and he has to use limited Olivi Grass. And he can't fight for the first 2 turns.

When was the last time you played that chapter? Volug is one-rounding just as much as anyone else, and even if he isn't, Volug not one-rounding is often just as good as it is bad. He lets another unit get a kill while still getting just as much Strike and CEXP experience.

A week ago. I am talking about 1-8 and 1-F here.

In my first hard mode playthrough, Volug had base stats, and didn't one round _anything_. He became useless, and I stopped using him, because all my other units were better.

Like I said, there's no other units who are going to need the kill, which you couldn't answer. What is it good for then?

Because every character needs to attack something every turn, right? Wrong. There will be times where using Olivi Grass is fine and not wasting anything.

Why not? 3-6 has constant enemies, killing is a good thing.

Except your Olivi Grass is limited. To get the most use out of it, you have to waste 2 uses for the first two turns in each chapter. Heck, your Olivi Grass could finish on 3-6.

That's why he walls. He fights on the enemy phase and smokes on the player phase while your rangers in the back pick off the weakened enemies. Not a tough concept, and highly efficient.

Oh crap, constant Olivi Grass use, then he becomes useless for the other Part 3 chapters.

I missed the part where the character with the highest move and some of the highest AS, durability, and power fails.

Read the previous parts. In short, Olivi Grass.

It's not like every enemy is a mage. Even so, he has 49 base HP. He's not getting killed anytime soon. He's more essential for his chapters than Tibarn is for his own. Volug is uber on a weak team. Tibarn is uber on a powerful team. Tibarn might be better when they join, but Volug has done so much to help at this point already.

Fire mages 2hko him, and they are pretty common, 2 mages can probably finish him off.

Tibarn has no problems with.. anything, except bow users, and he can EASILY dodge them. Volug has Wildheart, and he has a hard time doing so.

That's just stupid. I've already explained why using Olivi Grass is hardly a bad thing.

It is awful, awful. You only get one!

Edited January 1, 2009 by Julius

[Lord Raven]

I'm sure you get more than one Olivi Grass. An enemy drops one and the one you get off Muarim is enough until you can buy some more.

[Seph]

I checked Serenes, you don't get an Olivi from Muarim, you only get one Olivi in 1-9.

[Lord Raven]

You can also buy one in 1-E.

[Mekkah]

You can buy them from Aimee's Bargains.

[Seph]

Got it, my bad.

I am so blind.

Still, constantly relying on Olivi Grass is just wasting turns all the time.

EDIT: I just remembered, the Olivi Grass in Aimee's bargains is limited. Not infinite in number. So my point still stands.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Julius

[Lord Raven]

Once every three turns or something, just eat an Olivi Grass. That's not that much. >_>

Edited January 1, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Seph]

I just remembered, the Olivi Grass in Aimee's bargains is limited. Not infinite in number. So my point still stands.

You have to eat 2 Olivi Grass in 2 turns at the beginning of the chapter.

Let's say 3-6 takes 10 turns.

You probably have to take an Olivi Grass for the first turn and the second turn. 2 turns down the drain.

3-6, enemies will constantly overwhelm you. Laguz meter goes down. 1 Olivi Grass per 2 turns.

6 Olivi Grass uses right there my friend.

[Florete]

Based mostly on hard mode, like you said. Also, she's still getting those kills, which you couldn't deny.

We made it with hard mode in mind. Normal is somewhat similar, so the list often works for normal mode as well. You should base your arguments off hard mode.

Volug doesn't shine then.

He doesn't have to be the best character to be a great character.

Near her. They going to be right next to each other? I don't think so, because Jill can fly from ledges to ledges, and there are millions of those in this chapter. She can kill armors well with a Hammer or something, which Volug fails at.

They can't complete their B support then.

Lol at Jill hitting with a Hammer. It's low on accuracy and Jarod is giving 15 avoid to all the enemies. Lolno.

Also, Volug can move farther here than Jill can. Jill has a movement penalty and Volug isn't restricted by height either. If she's up there, he's up there. They are completing their support.

See? Personal experience is nothing

Ok. Zihark and Nolan can only get B by 3-6, though I don't remember why that matters since it has nothing to do with Volug.

Does this tier list have infinite turns? If you could take infinite turns, then there would be no point in this tier list.

Tier lists show efficiency. Efficiency = playing faster.

Efficiency = getting BEXP. Volug helps with that where it counts. In the part 3 chapters where there is no BEXP except Clear Bonus, time doesn't really matter as much, but Volug still helps a lot.

What is wrong with it exactly? It means, if you do too much of the other, then it'll be harmful. 3-13 it doesn't matter, but 3-12 you have to go a little bit forward. Because if you don't then the whole point of the tier list is pretty much for naught.

A little bit forward, but it's still mostly defense because you aren't going very far. Volug is good for this.

The best strategy to take on that chapter is to wall the two squares using Nolan and Zihark, block the ledges with whoever you want. Since it's defence, no need to worry about turns.

Volug is arguably better at this. He has almost as much avoid, more HP, and similar Defense. There's no reason he can't do the same thing or at least be nearby so as to take hits for someone else.

Volug is TERRIBLE to take on Laguz with. Not only does he gain awful exp, he constantly has to use an Olivi Grass. And you only get 1 Olivi Grass for all of Part 3, for Micaiah of course. That's terrible. 1 Olivi Grass won't last him 3 long chapters.

How is he terrible for fighting Laguz? It's just like fighting Beorc for him. And there are three Olivi Grass to use (1 from 1-8 and another in 1-E from Aimee's bargains, plus Micaiah finding one in 1-9). More than enough. Then, there is one dropped on 3-6. Plenty of Grass to smoke.

Yeah, but Volug's transformation gauge sucks, and he has to use limited Olivi Grass. And he can't fight for the first 2 turns.

His gauge isn't bad. It's the same as a Raven's and goes down at the same rate as a Tiger or Hawk. If you let just one enemy attack him, he can attack on the second turn.

In my first hard mode playthrough, Volug had base stats, and didn't one round _anything_. He became useless, and I stopped using him, because all my other units were better.

I've already explained why not one-rounding is still fine in his case. Plus, he did one-round things for me at base level. That is, anything anyone else could one-round.

Like I said, there's no other units who are going to need the kill, which you couldn't answer. What is it good for then?

What could I not answer? Any Beorc unit needs a kill more than Volug because he gets 1 experience either way. Him allowing them kills is making himself and them better.

Why not? 3-6 has constant enemies, killing is a good thing.

Except your Olivi Grass is limited. To get the most use out of it, you have to waste 2 uses for the first two turns in each chapter. Heck, your Olivi Grass could finish on 3-6.

3-6 has constant powerful enemies. Attacking on your own phase for most Beorc units can often be fatal since most units are 2-3 rounded, which Volug, thankfully, is not. I already told you that there is more than one Olivi Grass. Besides, no one is smoking 8 shots in that chapter.

Oh crap, constant Olivi Grass use, then he becomes useless for the other Part 3 chapters.

I've already countered this.

Read the previous parts. In short, Olivi Grass.

In short, there's plenty.

Fire mages 2hko him, and they are pretty common, 2 mages can probably finish him off.

They do ~20 damage IIRC. Not enough to 2HKO him. Plus, the only spot I can think of with two fire mages is 1-6-2 at the top right.

Tibarn has no problems with.. anything, except bow users, and he can EASILY dodge them. Volug has Wildheart, and he has a hard time doing so.

But he's only usable for 7 chapters, so why is he so high? That was your argument against Volug.

It is awful, awful. You only get one!

4 =/= 1

It seems almost your entire argument was based off the concept that there is not enough Olivi Grass. The problem is that you only remember one when there are four for him to use.

[Lord Raven]

3-6, enemies will constantly overwhelm you. Laguz meter goes down. 1 Olivi Grass per 2 turns.

Overexaggerating much? If anything it's somewhat viable to do it right on your own phase for the simple reason that he'll take down enemies on their own phase.

They won't overwhelm him considering he can't one round them anyway. Then again I play that chapter with a diagonal defensive line in the corner you start on.

[Seph]

I have a better idea, I'll make a thread tomorrow about Volug and why he's overrated, and we can continue there.

We made it with hard mode in mind. Normal is somewhat similar, so the list often works for normal mode as well. You should base your arguments off hard mode.

So yeah, Jill is killing the pegs no problem.

He doesn't have to be the best character to be a great character.

I know, but it makes Volug less useful which helps me.

Lol at Jill hitting with a Hammer. It's low on accuracy and Jarod is giving 15 avoid to all the enemies. Lolno.

Also, Volug can move farther here than Jill can. Jill has a movement penalty and Volug isn't restricted by height either. If she's up there, he's up there. They are completing their support.

I said or something, so you can just as easily use a forged weapon, and you have plenty of cash, no problems there.

You can't expect them to be next to each other all the time. And there aren't infinite turns in this..

Ok. Zihark and Nolan can only get B by 3-6, though I don't remember why that matters since it has nothing to do with Volug.

You mentioned it, not I.

Efficiency = getting BEXP. Volug helps with that where it counts. In the part 3 chapters where there is no BEXP except Clear Bonus, time doesn't really matter as much, but Volug still helps a lot.

He doesn't contribute anything to efficiency after 1-7, though. Said why many times, and will continue.

A little bit forward, but it's still mostly defense because you aren't going very far. Volug is good for this.

Sure he is, when he doesn't have enough time for killing because he has to take an Olivi Grass once in every 2 or 3 turns. And also, he has to take 2 in the first few turns. While your other units are taking hits, Volug is there preparing.

His gauge isn't bad. It's the same as a Raven's and goes down at the same rate as a Tiger or Hawk. If you let just one enemy attack him, he can attack on the second turn.

Laguz gauge sucks in general, what I meant.

Yeah well, only one enemy attacking him is unlikely unless you play really defensively in 3-6, because it's fog of war, many things may go after him.

I've already explained why not one-rounding is still fine in his case. Plus, he did one-round things for me at base level. That is, anything anyone else could one-round.

I've already denied why. He didn't one round any of the melee units for me at base level at 1-8 and beyond.

What could I not answer? Any Beorc unit needs a kill more than Volug because he gets 1 experience either way. Him allowing them kills is making himself and them better.

Your other units will be working in order to finish the chapter more efficiently more like, and Volug is giving out useless babying food.

3-6 has constant powerful enemies. Attacking on your own phase for most Beorc units can often be fatal since most units are 2-3 rounded, which Volug, thankfully, is not. I already told you that there is more than one Olivi Grass. Besides, no one is smoking 8 shots in that chapter.

Nolan and Zihark will be dodging, no problems for them.

Other beorc units are healed via Physic.

Volug has to use an Olivi Grass.

In short, there's plenty.

Yeah, I was blind about that.

They do ~20 damage IIRC. Not enough to 2HKO him. Plus, the only spot I can think of with two fire mages is 1-6-2 at the top right.

Fire mages? 20 damage? My Volug got more than 2hkoed in 1-5 with a fire spell..

It seems almost your entire argument was based off the concept that there is not enough Olivi Grass. The problem is that you only remember one when there are four for him to use.

4? There are only two from Aimee's bargains? And one from Micaiah's treasure in 1-9? What else?

That doesn't matter anyway. The point is, at the beginning of every chapter, you have to use 2 Olivi Grass JUST to transform, then you have to constantly use it. That's just awful.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Julius

[Lord Raven]

There's one in 3-6, and probably one hidden somewhere.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Florete]

So yeah, Jill is killing the pegs no problem.

Yes, she is. For about a turn, she's not near Volug.

I know, but it makes Volug less useful which helps me.

It makes everyone less useful. Although, Volug is still great for moving through terrain to save the Marado units fast.

I said or something, so you can just as easily use a forged weapon, and you have plenty of cash, no problems there.

You can't expect them to be next to each other all the time. And there aren't infinite turns in this..

They don't have to be next to each other, they have to be within 3 spaces. Perfectly reasonable.

He doesn't contribute anything to efficiency after 1-7, though. Said why many times, and will continue.

Said why many times he still contributes, and will continue.

Sure he is, when he doesn't have enough time for killing because he has to take an Olivi Grass once in every 2 or 3 turns. And also, he has to take 2 in the first few turns. While your other units are taking hits, Volug is there preparing.

You can easily use one on the first turn and let him get attacked by one enemy to fill up his gauge to have him attacking on the next turn. Since Laguz can't attack from range, this is no problem.

Laguz gauge sucks in general, what I meant.

Yeah well, only one enemy attacking him is unlikely unless you play really defensively in 3-6, because it's fog of war, many things may go after him.

3-6 should be done defensively. There are plenty of chokepoints and most of your units are 2-3 rounded.

I've already denied why. He didn't one round any of the melee units for me at base level at 1-8 and beyond.

I didn't want to do this, but let's get some numbers.

At base level, Volug has 31 might with 20 AS and 139 hit at neutral Bio.

Nolan is ~16 at 1-8. With a Steel Axe, he has ~26 might, 14 AS, and ~117 hit. Volug wins.

Zihark is ~4, and that's being generous. With a Steel Sword, he has ~26 might, 24 AS, and ~140 hit. Zihark doubles slightly more, but Volug damages more. Volug is still doubling near everything.

Sothe is ~4. With a Steel Dagger, he has ~29 might, 22 AS, and ~149 hit. Very similar.

Volug is just as offensively capable, but more durable and can move more. Volug wins.

Your other units will be working in order to finish the chapter more efficiently more like, and Volug is giving out useless babying food.

Volug is working to finish it more efficiently as well, as my numbers clearly show. "Babying food" is an advantage in Volug's favor since he's giving other units kills while getting the same benefits himself.

Nolan and Zihark will be dodging, no problems for them.

Cats can still hit them, and Tigers on occasion can hit them, especially at low biorythm.

Other beorc units are healed via Physic

There's only one Physic. Units will, on occasion, have to heal themself.

Volug has to use an Olivi Grass.

It evens out because he doesn't have to Vulnerary as often.

Fire mages? 20 damage? My Volug got more than 2hkoed in 1-5 with a fire spell..

He shouldn't be anywhere near fire mages in that chapter. He should be heading north to protect Jill as he is the only one who can do so fast enough.

4? There are only two from Aimee's bargains? And one from Micaiah's treasure in 1-9? What else?

One is dropped on 3-6. Even three is more than enough though.

That doesn't matter anyway. The point is, at the beginning of every chapter, you have to use 2 Olivi Grass JUST to transform, then you have to constantly use it. That's just awful.

Being as good as he is transformed, having to smoke on occasion is a minor setback. He's no competing for the Grass with anyone either, and his gauge doesn't go down terribly fast either.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Florete]

I have a better idea, I'll make a thread tomorrow about Volug and why he's overrated, and we can continue there.

I have an even better idea. Why don't you pick a spot on the list you think Volug should be. I'll defend Volug and you defend the character right above that spot.

[dondon151]

Does Wildheart round stats up or down? Kind of a random question.

From part 3 on, assuming that Volug is still at base level with A strike and no supports, he has:

49 HP, 31 MT, 26 AS, 151 Hit, 65 Avo, 18 Def and 10 Res.

Nolan doesn't match Volug's concrete physical durability until 20/13, and he still falls short on HP by 4.2 points. Magical durability doesn't matter because part 3 has no magic users. He also doesn't match Volug's AS until 20/17 and MT (with a Steel Axe) until 20/6.

Zihark's Avo doesn't match Volug's Avo until about --/7 or --/8. Both have earth affinity as well. Why does Zihark get A Nolan over Volug? And even though Zihark ties Volug in AS at around --/7, he still needs 11 more levels to reach 31 MT with a Steel Sword. Zihark's concrete physical durability doesn't even catch up until third tier.

Sothe... is about the same as Zihark, minus earth affinity and plus auto A with Micaiah.

Jill's AS is hindered by her second tier stat caps, and she's not matching Volug's MT until 20/11 (assuming Steel Axe again). She beats Volug in Def starting at around 20/4, but still loses massively in HP, so her physical durability needs a few more levels to catch up.

I could go on, but these are arguably the best units in the DB (minus Tauroneo, who can't be used in 3-6). Volug slaughters all of them at base level in raw stats, his only shortcomings being dependent on Olivi Grass during player phases (you get 3-4 of them with 8 uses each), weak to fire (not important for part 3), and not being able to use killer or effective weapons (the latter isn't important).

Overrated? I don't think so.

Edited January 2, 2009 by dondon151

[Lord Raven]

Really, has no one considered giving him Tauroneo's Resolve for the laguz chapter? :<

[Florete]

Does Wildheart round stats up or down? Kind of a random question.

I do believe it rounds up.

Really, has no one considered giving him Tauroneo's Resolve for the laguz chapter? :<

Meh, I usually give it to someone else who needs it more like Zihark or Nolan or Jill. Volug would be great with it, though.

[Lord Raven]

For me it tends to save him on enemy phase untransformed. Transformed he's pretty unstoppable with it.

[Judge Judy]

Ilyanna should be at the middle. Not lower middle in my opinion.

1)She comes early in the game and is available quite often through out the game. To level her up is not that difficult.

2) Thunder may be a problem in the game, but really most of the time she doesn't miss. So I think people are making a big issue about it.

3) Her speed is not much of a problem either. She tends to cap speed when she becomes a Arch Sage. She always manage to double hit particular units except Swordmasters.

4) Her caps are low compared to other Arch Sages but there is not much difference.

5) SHE ROCKS WITH REXBOLT!

So she is not the best unit but I do believe she is worthy to be in the middle.