H5 Tier list topic

[Colonel M]

I think many of us agree that he's not bad in the very early stages of the game. It's about midgame (around C5?) where a lot of problems start occuring.

[GuardianDreamer]

Okay then, I will continue. In chapter 7 there are Dragoons which Gordin can help eliminate, still has use there, keep him away from direct attacks though. Chapter 8 pretty much anyone has use there, Gordin will be there for chip damage, pulling his weight there. Chapter 9, still useful for chip damage,if you recruit Jeorge for his silver bow, then Gordin will make good use of it, but unless you boss abused he probably can't use it, but so can't anyone else, unless you give it to Wolf/Sedgar. Chapter 10, there are Winged units, Gordin helps. Chapter 11, there are a few winged units at the start Gordin can help get rid of, after that he can still be used as chip damage. Chapter 12, he'll be there for chip damage, not very useful, but still worth bringing along. For chapter 12x, some units need to be sacrificed, these are the units that joined since 6x

Athena(Very useful, especially if you lost Navarre)

Bantu(Only reason to keep him is to recruit Tiki)

Caesar(Underlevelled)

Radd(See above)

Roger(See above)

Jeorge(No reason to keep him)

Maria(Lena and Wendell far outshine her)

Minerva(Useless in H5, needs Hauteclere to do decent damage)

Linde(Underlevelled)

Jake(Good unit, only reason you'd kill him is if you think Beck is better and only need 1 ballistcian.)

I can see Gordin still pulling his weight so far, I'm once again going to stop, and prepare an argument for up to 17x.

[_____]

Stop bringing up who we will sacrifice. You are acting like we will have some set team that will be used every time we play. We don't. It doesn't even affect your case, and you're wrong most of the time.

For example:

Minerva(Useless in H5, needs Hauteclere to do decent damage)

No.

[GuardianDreamer]

Sorry, never done this before, please forgive me.

[Dat Nick]

Stop bringing up who we will sacrifice. You are acting like we will have some set team that will be used every time we play. We don't. It doesn't even affect your case, and you're wrong most of the time.

For example:

Minerva(Useless in H5, needs Hauteclere to do decent damage)

No.

ninji is defending Minerva

oh, the irony

The issue with Gordin is that he sucks, not that he eats up a unit slot. So yeah, THAT'S what you need to be looking at.

[GuardianDreamer]

To be honest, I don't see why people say Gordin is awful, he's always been useful to me, even when RNG screwed. So, give me a cons list for Gordin and that will make my job easier.(And save me time)

[Dat Nick]

So, give me a cons list for Gordin and that will make my job easier.(And save me time)

uh, here's one

One I can't believe you missed

his speed

[GuardianDreamer]

*Checks average stats* *Checks Growth rates* You have a point. And now I will do my best(awful) job of defending. Since when are archers supposed to be hit? Gordin probably won't be doubling anything until promotion time(except for Armors) true, but then again, a lot of people can't double, and last I checked I was arguing about Gordin vs Ymir, and Ymir isn't going to be doubling anything when he joins either, is he?(Wow, that was awful, I need to do a better job of this)

[Dat Nick]

Since when are archers supposed to be hit?

since when was that what I said

His spd is a problem because he can't double crap and his str is awful too, so his offense is simply dreadful.

but then again, a lot of people can't double

Maybe in earlygame, yeah, which is why his suck stands out less

But around midgame this really isn't an excuse anymore

and Ymir isn't going to be doubling anything when he joins either, is he?

As Hero? He does decent, and it's at no maintence. Fun fact, Gordon needs to be 207-20/8 to tie Hero Ymir's base.

[_____]

ninji is defending Minerva

oh, the irony

Hey, I may think she's trash in this mode, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to allow people to say she's horrible and use it as an argument.

By the way, GuardianDreamer, my last post probably seemed a little "jackass-y", if you will. I didn't mean to offend you or anything.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Ninji

[Colonel M]

Minerva is a little trashy. She's more toward utility than anything else. Sort of regret "maining" her.

[Rodykitty]

*ignores comparison of Gordon to every character in the game*

I'm going to rise Gordon > Ymir, at least for now. I think since devaluation of roles is becoming more relevant, Gordon at least has a period where he's not devaluated and his bow utility means something.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Alucart

[Blademaster!]

What I'm about to say may seem kind of wierd, but shouldn't Arran be higher than Samson? I understand that Samson is the better unit, but Arran has much better equipment and I don't think anybody is going to be really using either of them anyway in H5 (I actually did endup using Arran for a bit in H5 and he wasn't superhelpful, but he did make a nice shield for one round [he died for a noble cause instead of dying of illness]).

Also, I think Barst should be higher then Merric. Without him, killing the 1-3 boss becomes alot more anoying (I don't know if it is considered favoritism to give him the devil axe, but your only other options of characters that can use it are Bord and Darros and Bord has bad luk and Darros isn't strong enough/fast enough) and he can generally deal more damage than Merric. Plus, once promotion comes around (or even before then) Barst is MUCH faster. Plus, he recieves support bonuses from Oguma, Bord, and Cord, while merric only recives bonuses from essentially Marth and Wendel, and the Growth he recieves from Wendel is slower than the ones he receives from Bord and Cord due to chapter differences and his bonus with Marth is about the same speed as Barst's bonus with Oguma. Additionally, Barst moves across maps faster and is more durable.

And also, out of curiosity, why is Draug so high? He'll probably die in the first or second chapter.

[Fei Mao]

I believe that Arran is lower than Samson because Arran just gives good equipments and Arran is less durable than Samson because he'll be doubled most of the time.

Merric is higher than Barst because Merric will go the Curate-->Sage which is most preferred route therefore he'll be healing and leveling faster than Barst will, while it's true that Barst helps against the level 1-3 boss Merric being a curate, healing, and benefiting from the class is better in a long run. (D Magic and A staffs for Merric compared to A Axes?) Merric has durability compared to Lena, and the fact again he benefits from the class swap and levels fast thus making him above Barst.

I believe Draug is high because he can go the Hunter--->General route plus early promotion and be a speedy good general.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Cyas

[Blademaster!]

I still think Barst is better. Becoming a cleric Destroys Merric's Magic. As a 20/1 sage, he has an average of 8 magic assuming he was a cleric for all lvls like you are assuming. Barst has an average of 18 str assuming he was a fighter for all lvls and then became a hero. He will also be By this point, any weapon Barst can wield is either equal or better than any weapon Merric can wield, and Barst will be about 3 points faster and will have more durability in addition to moving across maps faster and having more avoid thanks to his support bonuses. Axes are also just as strong, if not a bit stronger than tomes, so Barst will be dealing more damage since enemies actually have some resistance in hardmode and the game is over run with Paladins. Additionally, since Merric will be spending most of his time just healing, Barst will be one of your main forces in defeating enemies throughout the entire game. Also, depending on how well Barst's growths turn out, he can be made into a beserker and gain a +45 crit bonus (excluding skl) with supports and an unforged killer axe. The only thing Merric has over Barst is healing capability. Barst is much better at combat throughout the entire game where Merric will be abit on the slow side(compared to units like Caeda, Oguma, Barst, and Cord), much more fragile and will have less avoid in addition to being one rounded by enemies with Brave weapons. Also, Being A ranked with Axes is better than being D ranked with Tomes and A ranked with Staves considering how many Lance wielding enemies there are and the Accuracy bonus he recieves compared to the Bonuses merric has yet to recieve and the fact that Merric will only be an effective healer with a recover staff due to his low magic.

Also, considering Merric will probably still be lvl 1 once he becomes a cleric and Barst will probably be lvl 8~12 at chapter 5, I'm pretty sure they'll lvl at the same rate.

And about the Samson and Arran thing, what I'm really trying to say is that I think it would be wiser to pick Arran because of his equipment when compared to Samson who is just a better unit.

[Rodykitty]

Merric has trouble one rounding things without Excalibur or a Forge as a Sage even with the extra magic gained from leveling him up as Mage. Merric much rather would have the extra durability growth, extra speed growth, and faster EXP gain as a Cleric on H5.

And he can still switch to Mage on chapters where Excalibur can be useful.

Re: Samson vs. Arran. That argument would fly on the FE9 tier list where people are more than willing to punish characters that are ALREADY low tier, but not here. We assume characters are treated like actual living characters actually trying to do stuff. The only thing he brings other than his silver weapon is a Killer Lance, and nobody really cares about that.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Alucart

[Jaybee]

Since when are archers supposed to be hit?

This is what gets Rhys beat on when I try to raise him.

In other words, just because a unit isn't supposed to get hit means we can disregard Def/Res. And you forgot that Wyverns and Pegs have high move, which means they can prolly reach him easily.

[Rodykitty]

if an archer has to stay back while at full HP instead of attacking something and helping everyone else, then that archer has durability issues.

[Mekkah]

Archer durability issues are less important than, say, Myrmidon's or even Fighter, because if you use them to full efficiency their defensive stats don't matter at all unless you attack ranged enemies with them. Of course, you still have to treat them like bad durability units on enemy phase because they can't counter at all.

[Rodykitty]

That's a better way to look at it. My mistake.

[Dat Nick]

You realize that the boss is much easier to kill with Ogma+Killing Edge, right? Barst is not required at all.

where Merric will be abit on the slow side(compared to units like Caeda, Oguma, Barst, and Cord), much more fragile and will have less avoid in addition to being one rounded by enemies with Brave weapons.

uh

Quite the opposite

20/6 Merric: 40 HP, 19 atk Elfire, 18 AS, 7 def

Archer:

32 (33) HP

23 atk

104 (105) hit

10 (11) AS

7 def

0 (1) res

NOTE: Two have forged longbows equal to silver bow stats.

Cav:

35 (36) HP

27 (28) atk

103 (104) hit

10 (11) AS

9 (10) def

0 (1) res

Sniper:

42 HP

26 atk

115 hit

16 AS

8 def

4 res

Armor 7:

37 HP

27 atk silver lance, 26 horseslayer, 25 jav

103 (104) hit all

4 (5) AS

12 def

1 res

Armor 11:

41 HP

29 atk

104 hit

5 AS

13 def

1 res

Thief 7:

28 HP

21 atk

109 hit

17 AS

3 def

Thief 9:

30 HP

22 atk

110 hit

18 AS

3 def

Priest 12:

26 HP

11 HP heal [Fortify]

12 AS

5 def

11 res

Boss: Jiol

48 HP

30 atk

103 hit

9 AS

16 def

3 res

Whyddya mean he doesn't ORKO consistently? There's only two enemies on the map he can't kill with Elfire, the Sniper and the Armor. And the Armor can be fixed by pulling out Bolganone.

His durability isn't even that bad if you look at enemy ATK. THe cavs/armors 2HKOs him but everything else is a 3. 20/3 Hero Cord's durability actually isn't much better, 38Hp/13 def[counting WTA] as opposed to Merric's 40hp/7def. I'd prefer Merric not taking a counter to that.

also, lol@ a bringing up avo. And no, he is not one rounded by brave weapons. Braves generally have 26-27 ATK. All Merric needs to do is hit 20/7 before that happens and he's good. IIRC I had him at 20/11 or something by then so...

And Merric's tome rank is not D, it's D with 8 points from C. And also, what do you mean enemies actually have res? Promoted ones maybe, but unpromotes are lol.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Joker

[Blademaster!]

I'm really talking more about the later parts of the game when it comes to Merric's durability being crap and him being one rounded by everything (though most units are one rounded in those chapters, especially the final one). That's why I said Barst is usefull for the whole game, while Merric isn't.

And I don't know why you'd laugh at talking about avoid since when I played H5, Barst and Cord were able to stand out very well due to their 10% avoid bonus (My Oguma's Stats were worse than Ceaser's [Who I ended up using due to their similar stats] so I just let Oguma die since He wasn't really being a helpful contribution to my team and I didn't use Bord). Plus, when you're comparing a 20-40% avoid difference, it can become a pretty big factor.

[Rodykitty]

I'm really talking more about the later parts of the game when it comes to Merric's durability being crap and him being one rounded by everything (though most units are one rounded in those chapters, especially the final one).

Merric isn't one rounded though. Even defaulting to Mage he can build up enough durability to survive a Brave attack. Cleric guarantees this.

[Dat Nick]

Plus, when you're comparing a 20-40% avoid difference, it can become a pretty big factor.

Not when enemies have such high hit, and a 20-40 avo win over Merric isn't that much anyway.

Barst/Cord will never reach reliable levels of avo.

And yes, lol@Merric getting one rounded by everything. It's more like "Merric one rounds everything with Bolganone and gets liek 3RKOd back outside of braves which 2RKO"

Edited September 22, 2009 by Joker

[Dat Nick]

here's something

Draug>Cord/Barst, what with good durability due to taking less counters and having solid defense later?

ill elaborate later, I'm tired atm. Just throwing it in the air.