H5 Tier list topic

[Dat Nick]

Ooh, we were doing Abel vs Cain a few pages back?

meh, why not

Cain will have to use an iron lance against the majority of axe users in the first few chapters before he'll be able to use Javelins. While Abel with automatic access can safetly attack on the player phase with a Javelin and counter during the enemy phase.

yeah great

just a few problems

1: Abel's hit with javelins sucks that early on. Granted we're looking at roughly 70% when you plug in real hit, but that's still not too reliable. I'm not joking when I say CAPTAIN GORDIN DEFENDER OF EARTH is better for attacking ranged [better damage and hit that's actually reliable with steel] Also, if any enemy just happens to be on a terrain space, kiss Abel's chances of hitting (mostly) goodbye.

2: Cain has better sword rank, a literal life saver that early on. You'll probably be taking a bit longer in the chapters, so 30 WEXP racks up quicker than you think. At that point he gets extra mt and avo, and already has access to Steel. What does Abel have? None of the above, he's still fiddling with javelins and their annoying sucky hit.

oh yeah, and by the time Abel's hit doesn't suck so bad with javelins anymore, Cain's probably using them with a decent hit chance, too

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Ooh, we were doing Abel vs Cain a few pages back?

meh, why not

yeah great

just a few problems

1: Abel's hit with javelins sucks that early on. Granted we're looking at roughly 70% when you plug in real hit, but that's still not too reliable. I'm not joking when I say CAPTAIN GORDIN DEFENDER OF EARTH is better for attacking ranged [better damage and hit that's actually reliable with steel] Also, if any enemy just happens to be on a terrain space, kiss Abel's chances of hitting (mostly) goodbye.

2: Cain has better sword rank, a literal life saver that early on. You'll probably be taking a bit longer in the chapters, so 30 WEXP racks up quicker than you think. At that point he gets extra mt and avo, and already has access to Steel. What does Abel have? None of the above, he's still fiddling with javelins and their annoying sucky hit.

oh yeah, and by the time Abel's hit doesn't suck so bad with javelins anymore, Cain's probably using them with a decent hit chance, too

1. Using Javelin >>> Direct attacks early on because you wanna avoid eating counter-attacks as much as possible since it quickly becomes likely that most of your units will die in 2 hits. The hit isn't too reliable but it's not bad either and it helps prevent casualties. Gordin becomes obsolete quickly.

2. Elaborate, because the way I see it, working on Cain's sword rank is just stupid and the fact that it's higher than Abel's just means he can use Steel Sword and that's it. Axe users are only around for the early game and pretty soon most enemies will be using Lances so you'd have to switch to Lances if you wanna avoid giving the enemy WTA. What does Abel have? Better Lance rank and quicker access to Ridersbane, Javelins and Silver Lance which are much better than swords. You've already got Ogma for Armorslayer.

[Rodykitty]

I agree with MightyZagaro that a Javelin with a poor hit rate with the Javelin isn't going to bring Abel above Kain alone.

However; there are other reasons why I feel Abel > Kain.

1. Cain's HP lead is only by a couple of points after 10 or 20 levels, and doesn't go much higher after promotion. Kain just barely has a Str lead, from 1 point to less of a point as they level up. Abel makes up for Cain's Str lead with a point in Speed.

2. Abel can use swords too. While he won't be able to take advantage of the steel sword as easily as Kain, he prefers the comfort of using the WTA freely in the first few chapters and then taking advantage of his Lance level for the chapters afterward.

[Rodykitty]

I feel that Wolf is above Top Tier, but it's agreed that there's a significant gap in performance between him and Zagaro.

So he gets his own tier.

[Mekkah]

100% agreed. I don't even think there's a tier gap between Zagaro and Wolf, but whatever.

[Dat Nick]

Zagaro starts tanking hits that much faster than Wolf can.

[Rodykitty]

Moving Jagen down to bottom of Up Mid to close the gap between him and Gordon since they're both valuable early game, but aren't that great later on.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Why is Castor in high? I don't think he's good enough to top Athena and Catria or the Shooters for that matter. I think Wrys is too high as well, he's mostly good for like, the first 4 chapters and he's not doubling as a sage.

Edited February 16, 2009 by Levin

[Rodykitty]

Alright. I'll lower him.

Edited February 16, 2009 by Chainey

[Dr. Tarrasque]

- Wrys below the ballisticans

- You still haven't moved Castor down >_>.

I'm skeptical about Catria and Athena's positions... I think Athena may have problems doubling as a peg knight and she still sucks as a Swordmaster so does her earlier availability really put her above Catria? Catria's easy to level up and will quickly surpass Athena.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Levin

[Rodykitty]

- Wrys below the ballisticans

Can you give any reasons?

- You still haven't moved Castor down >_>.

He's below pretty much below everyone you wanted him to be, which are Catria and the Shooters. You'll have to tell me who he needs to fall under.

I'm skeptical about Catria and Athena's positions... I think Athena may have problems doubling as a peg knight and she still sucks as a Swordmaster so does her earlier availability really put her above Catria? Catria's easy to level up and will quickly surpass Athena.

Alright. I'll switch their positions, but I really want to know if Athena needs to lower more than that or if Catria needs to go to high tier.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Can you give any reasons?

He's below pretty much below everyone you wanted him to be, which are Catria and the Shooters. You'll have to tell me who he needs to fall under.

Alright. I'll switch their positions, but I really want to know if Athena needs to lower more than that or if Catria needs to go to high tier.

Misread it, thought he was on Cord's spot. Anyway, I'm thinking Castor below Horace... Castor's there early but his base stats suck way too much.

As for Wrys moving down, well you get Lena in chapter 3 and you want her to stay alive so that Heal staff is going to go to her. Also, Wrys is obsolete as soon as reclass comes in since generic units can do his job and there's no reason to keep Wrys alive... at all.

Catria, she could probably move on to high but her current position's fine as well. As for Athena, we'll have to look into how good she is against enemies. Link to the H5 enemy stats?

Edited February 25, 2009 by Levin

[Rodykitty]

Well, alright. I can see Wrys moving down.

(I move him down below Wendell since both he and Wendell do healer duties, but Wendell doesn't get obsolete as quickly.)

Edited February 25, 2009 by Chainey

[dondon151]

Has the Abel vs. Kain debate been settled yet? Because I really think Abel's higher base lance rank clearly puts him above Kain.

Clearing early chapters efficiently means minimizing damage taken while maximizing damage given, which Abel does with 1-2 range but Kain does not. I found myself sniping with Javelins all the time until enemies were in KO range, because pretty much everyone is 2RKO'd and healing is kind of lackluster with the new heal formula. Abel can snipe with a Javelin on every turn while Kain might not attack at all because there are other units with 1 range that want EXP as well. This leads into my next point: because Abel attacks all the time while Kain does not, and Kain might want to use swords, Abel builds his lance rank faster than Kain does. It's plausible that Abel might even reach C lances before Kain can toss a Javelin.

Early on you get a Ridersbane that, forged with +2 or +3 MT, easily OHKOs enemy horsies. Abel can use this; Kain cannot. Kain claims an Armorslayer advantage later on, but Abel gets more chapters of use out of Ridersbane.

[Rodykitty]

Has the Abel vs. Kain debate been settled yet? Because I really think Abel's higher base lance rank clearly puts him above Kain.

It's been settled a long time ago, and even the current tier list reflects this (I frequently update the OP).

[Dat Nick]

H5 enemy stats. Crap.

...I'll see if they're archived anywhere. But somebody help me move them to Serenes, please?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

H5 enemy stats. Crap.

...I'll see if they're archived anywhere. But somebody help me move them to Serenes, please?

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage....;topic=47482919

You should ask vincent to post them on the main site or make a thread here and request it sticky.

[Florete]

I'm not very educated in this game (only beaten it once on H1) but what makes Xane so good that he's the second best character in the game despite being in less than half the game, occasionally needing a turn to re-transform, and needing a healing when he does?

[NoNameAtAll]

I'm not very educated in this game (only beaten it once on H1) but what makes Xane so good that he's the second best character in the game despite being in less than half the game, occasionally needing a turn to re-transform, and needing a healing when he does?

What's more awesome than having one Sedgar? TWO SEDGARS!

[Mekkah]

I'm not very educated in this game (only beaten it once on H1) but what makes Xane so good that he's the second best character in the game despite being in less than half the game, occasionally needing a turn to re-transform, and needing a healing when he does?

It's a bit similar to people like Ninian being ranked insanely high despite availability - copying your best character at that point. Of course, it's a bit different, since this guy is really a copy instead of more like a movement extension, and he can have enemy exposal. The fact that he can't transform and do something at the same time, as well as untransform and directly transform to something else whenever needed is a bit of a bummer. I believe his availability also hurts him quite a bit, so I don't know if I really agree with him being hiiiigh up there. I would say it's quite arguable someone like Abel, who has been helping you by being hax all game long, is above him.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Mekkah

[Florete]

It's a bit similar to people like Ninian being ranked insanely high despite availability - copying your best character at that point. Of course, it's a bit different, since this guy is really a copy instead of more like a movement extension, and he can have enemy exposal. The fact that he can't transform and do something at the same time, as well as untransform and directly transform to something else whenever needed is a bit of a bummer. I believe his availability also hurts him quite a bit, so I don't know if I really agree with him being hiiiigh up there. I would say it's quite arguable someone like Abel, who has been helping you by being hax all game long, is above him.

That's pretty much exactly how I saw him; an inferior Dancer. He should definitely be pretty high up, but I feel like he's a bit overrated as he is now.

[Mekkah]

I don't know if my post gave you the idea of an inferior dancer - it seems more like a trade-off to me. Being able to expose your "copied action" on enemy phase seems very useful to me. Instead of having Sedgars in two places with two actions at once on just a player phase, you have him in two places at once for enemy phase as well. As I said, there's also disadvantages, but it seems more debatable than clear cut whether having just another dancer would be better or not.

If you were to do individual chapter tiers, he would probably be your best unit from the moment he exists. That's from 16 to final. Assuming gaidens 17x, 20x and 24x, that's roughly 12 chapters of being the best, and about 17 chapters of not being there. Compare that to say, Barst or Oguma, who are among the best for those earlier chapters, and still up there later (maybe Oguma not so much), or to Wolf whose differences with Sedgar are (imo) too negligible for a tier gap and is available for only a slightly shorter time than Barst and Oguma, and you get a pretty arguable deal, not a whole tier gap.

[Dat Nick]

Hrm.

Speaking of that....let's see what we can do.

C1:

h4x:

Jagen

Shiida

Cav:

Abel

Cain

Mid:

Draug

Gordin

Kinda crappy for now:

Marth

Riff

C2:

h4x:

Jagen

Shiida

Riff

Ogma

High:

Abel

Barst

Cain

Mid:

Castor

Marth

Daros

Bord

Cord

Low:

Gordin

Draug

that's just a start

Edited February 26, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Mekkah]

Riff in hax for C1 seems a stretch. Healing is fun, but he is only available once everything but the boss is dead, pretty much. He would have to be twice as good as everyone else for that last bit or something.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Riff should not be on "h4x" tier if you're trying that method. He comes in when you're just about done with everything but the boss and then you're pretty much down to Silver Lance counter-attacks + indirect attacks.

Meh, Mekkah beat me to it >_>.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Levin