Book 2

[dondon151]

Except no, because dismounting was a terrible, pointless, idea, and I feel much joy in partaking in the urination upon it's grave.

Care to qualify this in a way that's not "but you have to use swords?"

[Dat Nick]

Debuffs to stats

In book 1, only practical to double for the first few levels, then you never do it again

Totally pointless in FE5

Why is Serlis going to want to dismount, again?

Dismounting seriously needed to die FE4 and after. Thankfully, it did. Then mounted units needed a nerf, which they got in RD.

RIP: Dismounting. And good RIDDANCE.

Edited January 25, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[Lord Raven]

Celice's dismounting was supposedly just something they forgot to take out.

[dondon151]

Debuffs to stats

Totally pointless in FE5

How is this bad? The intention was to give mounted units a marked penalty in indoor maps. If you're going to complain about this then I can complain about any other game mechanic or stat discrepancy in the series. Mount nerfing in FE10 made mounted units on par with foot units indoors and superior elsewhere; "acceptable" is subjective.

In book 1, only practical to double for the first few levels, then you never do it again

Never played FE3, so no comment.

[Dat Nick]

The intention was to give mounted units a marked penalty in indoor maps.

Exactly. A penalty they didn't need.

superior elsewhere

lolno.

FE4? That's a game with broken mounts.

[Rodykitty]

Dismounting can also be used to remove a Pegasus Knight's bow weakness.

[Dat Nick]

What, and make their stats suck even MORE? :/

Especially str. Low str on a unit with crappy str already and locked to swords=fail.

Edited January 25, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[Lord Raven]

I always thought it was to make the game more realistic. I myself find it odd to bring your pegasus or wyvern indoors even while fighting. <_<

[dondon151]

Exactly. A penalty they didn't need.

No units need disadvantages. Mercs don't need to be locked to swords, armors don't need to be weak to armor killers, fliers don't need to be weak to bows, Mist doesn't need to have the shittiest strength ever, Whispers don't need to have a lame mastery skill, etc.

FE4? That's a game with broken mounts.

A mount doesn't have to be "broken" to be superior to a foot unit. Horses beat infantry outdoors except for when there are cliffs or when terrain sucks (in GBA FEs, they were basically even in bad terrain). Fliers beat infantry, period, except for their bow weakness, which makes DKs better in FE10 because they only fear thunder mages and PKs worse because of crossbows.

Point is, it's +2 move vs. weakness to like 2 out of the 38 enemies on a map. I'd think anyone would rather have the former for efficiency's sake.

What, and make their stats suck even MORE? :/

Especially str. Low str on a unit with crappy str already and locked to swords=fail.

Then do as the game strongly hints you to and don't use PKs indoors. Simple as that. No big loss, considering you have a plethora of more viable units at your disposal anyway...

Edited January 25, 2009 by dondon151

[Erifmelbme]

FE11 doesn't have support convos at all, and I don't think they'd add them back in a book 2 remake.

I know that Fe 11 doesn't have support convos, I was saying that it would be hard to put them in a remake of book 2, or a Fe+12(I they make it I don't know when), unless they removed the class swap system they had in Fe11, because i think someone mentioned something about wanting Support convos in book 2

[Kiddo]

First of all, dismounting is not pointless. It changes how one approaches indoor chapters and adds a sense of realism.

How is it "more realistic", really? Since I see this argument being thrown.

The closest explanation Monshou has "You won't like the smell of horses in your castle", but for crying out loud we're talking about a WAR and you're worrying about the smell of horses for CASTLES YOU'RE TRYING TO OVERTHROW? The places could theoretically collapse anyway - especially when DRAGONs are in them. Marth's gonna be rebuilding anyway. And the smell of ROTTING CORPSES would be a lot worse than horse doodoo. "Lack of physical space" would also be far fetched when you consider, once again, friggin' Dragons.

Not to mention that as far as I remember mounted units are the only really high-move units, and forcing dismounts causes the game to slow down in pace CONSIDERABLY - which would go against Shadow Dragon's "Speed up the game so people can speedrun it for easier access" thing in Shadow Dragon.

And this is all BEFORE the fact that in FEDS's speed-based units, the mounted classes are the only class able to use spears! Better hope you have a General ready to wield Gradivus... Unfortunately most Generals either stink, or are better off as a Hero.

[Rodykitty]

By that logic we should just have random maps every time we play because the gameplay maps are completely dependent on story.

This would actually be a really awesome feature, a game mode with randomized maps while still having a main story mode.

[Dat Nick]

No units need disadvantages

No. But a nerf like that is still retarded and unnecessary.

armors don't need to be weak to armor killers, fliers don't need to be weak to bows, Mist doesn't need to have the shittiest strength ever

...Please learn how to be reasonable.

Whispers don't need to have a lame mastery skill, etc.

No, they really don't, it's a fail class already.

Horses beat infantry outdoors except for when there are cliffs or when terrain sucks

...Also crappy caps

Fliers beat infantry

DKS yes, pegs no, especially when there's not a single good peg in the game.

which makes DKs better in FE10 because they only fear thunder mages and PKs worse because of crossbows.

Another thing unnecessary because Wyverns were already>>>>>>>>>pegs.

Point is, it's +2 move vs. weakness to like 2 out of the 38 enemies on a map. I'd think anyone would rather have the former for efficiency's sake.

...Meaning even you agree it's a retarded feature.

No big loss, considering you have a plethora of more viable units at your disposal anyway...

Doesn't make it any less retarded. Pegs don't need to suck more than they already do.

[Lord Raven]

How is it "more realistic", really? Since I see this argument being thrown.

The closest explanation Monshou has "You won't like the smell of horses in your castle", but for crying out loud we're talking about a WAR and you're worrying about the smell of horses for CASTLES YOU'RE TRYING TO OVERTHROW? The places could theoretically collapse anyway - especially when DRAGONs are in them. Marth's gonna be rebuilding anyway. And the smell of ROTTING CORPSES would be a lot worse than horse doodoo. "Lack of physical space" would also be far fetched when you consider, once again, friggin' Dragons.

It pretty much is lack of physical space; there's not enough free range. This applies moreso to fliers than mounts, and it's likely just easier to dismount while attacking inside a castle or something... how many raids inside a castle have you heard of that take place entirely on horseback? <_<

And this is all BEFORE the fact that in FEDS's speed-based units, the mounted classes are the only class able to use spears! Better hope you have a General ready to wield Gradivus... Unfortunately most Generals either stink, or are better off as a Hero.

Actually, FE3 Player's idea was to keep the primary weapon usable indoors.

[dondon151]

No. But a nerf like that is still retarded and unnecessary.

Purely subjective. Any disadvantage that one unit has compared to another is retarded and unnecessary.

...Please learn how to be reasonable.

Fine. Armors having 1 less move than other infantry is retarded.

...Also crappy caps

Caps don't matter unless it's like FE10 4-E or something. No one ever comes close to capping a significant number of stats at a reasonable endgame level in any other FE, and caps are generally overkill in relation to the enemies anyway.

DKS yes, pegs no, especially when there's not a single good peg in the game.

Point taken, though all other things equal, PKs beat infantry. This scenario never happens in-game, but the rhetoric still applies.

Another thing unnecessary because Wyverns were already>>>>>>>>>pegs.

That's great, which means DKs have awesome advantages over foot units when outdoors and still minor advantages over foot units when indoors (unless fliers can't cross ledges indoors). I don't see why every unit in this game isn't Haar or Jill.

...Meaning even you agree it's a retarded feature.

I didn't agree to anything. I was stating that the pros of being mounted far surpass its cons when outdoors, which makes sense why the developers wanted to nerf mounts indoors (not to mention it makes more sense, like Nathan Graves said).

Doesn't make it any less retarded. Pegs don't need to suck more than they already do.

Any unit doesn't need to suck more than they already do in relation to other units.

Edited January 25, 2009 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

I'm sure I know what the penalties are for Kashim (I'm pretty sure he loses his Horseman gains, although his Horseman gains are shit to start out aside from the move)

Kashim is a bad character to start with. Why the HELL does he need to be fucked over more?

Just because it's "pointless" gameplay-wise doesn't rule it out, because of the gameplay's reliance on story.

Yeah, and not ONE SINGLE PERSON IN FE7 GAVE A FUCK THAT ISADORA RODE HER HORSE INDOORS NOW DID THEY SHERLOCK?

6-9, I have no clue why they didn't include dismounting.

Because it's a retarded pointless feature and IS knows it.

Crossing mountains/mountain bonus in general?

Totally overridden by def reduction, so we're down to crossing mountains, which will take more time anyway.

So now we're down to your gorgeous realism argument as the only possible gameplay reason for dismounting. Okay, let's take out the mages, too. And the pegasus. And the wyverns. And the dragons. And EVERYTHING UNREALISTIC LOL.

- dismounting apparently makes things harder, yet you're for character's permanent deaths because it makes the game too easy otherwise?

- how realism going into gameplay sucks for mounts, yet doesn't suck because the characters who die are gone forever?

You're comparing gameplay mechanics FE is used to running on to unnecessary nerfs to mounted units. FE has gotten used to living without dismounting, and it can, should, and probably will stay that way.

FUCK dismounting. Fuck it in the asshole with a big rubber dick. Then break it off and beat it with the rest of it.

how many raids inside a castle have you heard of that take place entirely on horseback?

How many raids inside a castle have you heard of that consist of robed guys nuking people with fire and women with weird colored hair magically making wounds on enemy soldiers dissapear?

And in FEDS's case, Ballistas. Inside a castle.

Edited January 25, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[Rodykitty]

Dismounting probably would be better if it allowed the character to continue using their main weapon.

[Dat Nick]

Any disadvantage that one unit has compared to another is retarded and unnecessary.

We're talking about NESSACARY disadvantages. Is making Wyverns immune to WKs nessacary? Hell no, they need SOME weakness. Is making WKs arrow and thunder resistant nessacary? Hell yes, they need to die SOMEHOW.

There's no reason to shaft over mounted units that badly.

Fine. Armors having 1 less move than other infantry is retarded.

Yes it is. What the hell is your point?

Caps don't matter unless it's like FE10 4-E or something.

And guess how many paladins in RD are considered above average or even good? Paladins in RD suck.

though all other things equal, PKs beat infantry.

But all other things AREN'T equal.

That's great, which means DKs have awesome advantages over foot units when outdoors and still minor advantages over foot units when indoors (unless fliers can't cross ledges indoors). I don't see why every unit in this game isn't Haar or Jill.

Um, yes? That is why Wyverns in RD are overpowered. That's exactly what I've been saying.

Any unit doesn't need to suck more than they already do in relation to other units.

No, they don't, and that's why Dismounting is a horribly retarded idea.

Dismounting probably would be better if it allowed the character to continue using their main weapon.

And what, making dismounting even MORE pointless?

[Rodykitty]

And what, making dismounting even MORE pointless?

First of all, dismounting is not pointless. It changes how one approaches indoor chapters and adds a sense of realism.

To balance out dismounting:

- Don't give a penalty to Str. In mounted form, the horse/pegasi never attacks at all, so it doesn't make sense to lower Str.

- Do give a penalty to Speed and Defense, because the horse provides extra cover as well as a mode of transportation.

- Possibly a penalty in skill, since being on a mount gives a character the high ground over an opponent.

- Let them use their main weapon.

[Dat Nick]

sense of realism.

In a game where you have people with purple hair throwing lightning bolts and fireballs at each other, and one unit not taking any damage from an axe in the head and magically recovering themselves with skills, I think it's safe to say you can throw realism out the window. You can revive the dead for fick's sake.

To balance out dismounting:

- Don't give a penalty to Str. In mounted form, the horse/pegasi never attacks at all, so it doesn't make sense to lower Str.

- Do give a penalty to Speed and Defense, because the horse provides extra cover as well as a mode of transportation.

- Possibly a penalty in skill, since being on a mount gives a character the high ground over an opponent.

- Let them use their main weapon.

Sorry, it's still stupid, unnecessary, and pointless.

[Lord Raven]

While we're at it, let's throw the entire sense of physics out the window and let everyone fly naturally! Then standing is pointless, too, because realism should be thrown out the window in EVERY case with Fire Emblem.

You didn't even prove that it's "stupid, pointless, senseless", you just stated a blank opinion even though he provided stuff that he felt was necessary (and I agree with) using his own logic. If you're going to refute something, at least properly refute it instead of trivializing his argument with your blank claim.

- Don't give a penalty to Str. In mounted form, the horse/pegasi never attacks at all, so it doesn't make sense to lower Str.

I think the momentum of the horse while attacking should be a factor while we're damaging. So Strength should take a penalty, maybe of about a point or something... Edited January 25, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

You didn't even prove that it's "stupid, pointless, senseless", you just stated a blank opinion even though he provided stuff that he felt was necessary (and I agree with) using his own logic.

Mounted units don't have overkilled stats. Why is fucking them over nessacary?

Now that I think of it, why is the movement nerf nessacary? RD Paladins would probably suck even without it.

Then standing is pointless, too, because realism should be thrown out the window in EVERY case with Fire Emblem.

Okay, still no excuse to use realism as an excuse for adding such an awful feature.

If you're going to refute something, at least properly refute it instead of trivializing his argument with your blank claim.

I already explained why dismounting is shitty and needs to stay dead. About five times.

[Lord Raven]

Mounted units don't have overkilled stats. Why is fucking them over necessary?

It's not "fucking them over." It's barely a nerf, although in FE5 you have a case. It's a total non-factor in FE3 (and for Cavaliers/Bow Knights in FE5) because it reduces some stats by 1 or 2 at best and makes you use Swords... in which case, FE3 doesn't even have individual weapon levels.

Now that I think of it, why is the movement nerf nessacary? RD Paladins would probably suck even without it.

It would seem harder to move around inside on top of your Horse or Wyvern/Pegasus.

Okay, still no excuse to use realism as an excuse for adding such an awful feature.

Fire Emblem is a fairly realistic game if you take out the magic and the fact that you fight Gods and Goddesses and dragons and pegasi. Which are probably the only things making it unrealistic... I know it's like saying that removing x makes x like y, but the game does seem realistic enough that fighting indoors with something to mount on would be odd.

I already explained why dismounting is shitty and needs to stay dead. About five times.

State it again, then? Because it nerfs characters hardcore apparently? And because it's pointless otherwise? With a bunch of tweaking, it's fine. The entire point is to add realism to the game (for the record, FE5 got much of the realism right lol). If you can't use realism as an argument, then by God the game sucks because my units die every time their HP goes to zero, and they can't come back! <_< Edited January 25, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

It's barely a nerf,

Still unnecessary and retarded.

It's a total non-factor in FE3

Kashim says you suck, and Abel/Cain wouldnt mind keeping their res and move.

It would seem harder to move around inside on top of your Horse or Wyvern/Pegasus.

So the hell what? GAMEPLAY POINT OF PERSPECTIVE HERE.

Fire Emblem is a fairly realistic game if you take out the magic and the fact that you fight Gods and Goddesses and dragons and pegasi. Which are probably the only things making it unrealistic... I know it's like saying that removing x makes x like y, but the game does seem realistic enough that fighting indoors with something to mount on would be odd.

STILL not justifying the re-addition of a retarded feature.

Also, nobody seemed to care about this thing in FE6. Or 7. Or 8. Or 9. Or 10.

Because it nerfs characters hardcore apparently?

An unnecessary nerf is still an unnecessary nerf.

And because it's pointless otherwise?

It's VERY pointless.

With a bunch of tweaking, it's fine.

No, it's not fine, it's adding unnecessary bullshit that should have stayed dead. Nobody is EVER going to dismount units unless they're forced to. What the fuck is the point?

The entire point is to add realism to the game

Who gives a shit? Realisim disrupting gameplay mechanics=not cool. It can't and shouldn't be added for the sole purpose of realism. That's bullshit.

and they can't come back! dry.gif

At least they have a reason to stay dead because the game would be too piss easy otherwise.

[Fiora]

Why must you curse when you respond, MightyZagaro? It makes you look uncivilized.

Unmounting is realistic, like many have already said. The penalties may be a bit too harsh, but so what? They are good everywhere else.