Book 2

[TheEnd]

FE4? That's a game with broken mounts.

The only broken mount in FE4 is called Master Knight.

All others have horrible bases/caps. Are you really sure you've played that game?

[dondon151]

We're talking about NESSACARY disadvantages. Is making Wyverns immune to WKs nessacary? Hell no, they need SOME weakness. Is making WKs arrow and thunder resistant nessacary? Hell yes, they need to die SOMEHOW.

And dismounting penalties are necessary because they encourage the use of infantry units in indoor maps.

There's no reason to shaft over mounted units that badly.

It's not even nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

Yes it is. What the hell is your point?

My point is that the developers discouraged the player from abusing an armor's high defense by nerfing its movement and discouraged a player from using mounts on indoor maps by forcing dismounting.

And guess how many paladins in RD are considered above average or even good? Paladins in RD suck.

Only because 75% of them are CRKs or Fiona. Oscar and Titania are above average.

But all other things AREN'T equal.

My rhetoric still stands.

No, they don't, and that's why Dismounting is a horribly retarded idea.

By that logic, any shortcoming on a character is a horribly retarded idea.

And what, making dismounting even MORE pointless?

-2 move is not pointless while -3 move and a couple of stat penalties is? Nice double standard there.

So the hell what? GAMEPLAY POINT OF PERSPECTIVE HERE.

I don't follow. If anything, dismounting is positive for gameplay because it encourages unit diversity for different maps.

Also, nobody seemed to care about this thing in FE6. Or 7. Or 8. Or 9. Or 10.

Nobody cared because nobody was even aware that this mechanic was once implemented in Fire Emblem. Nobody seemed to care about capturing, either.

No, it's not fine, it's adding unnecessary bullshit that should have stayed dead. Nobody is EVER going to dismount units unless they're forced to. What the fuck is the point?

It balances the game? lol.

[Rodykitty]

Also keep in mind that FEDS almost had dismounting. Data for the "Knight" class still exists, but wasn't fully implemented.

Edited January 25, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Why must you curse when you respond, MightyZagaro? It makes you look uncivilized.

Unmounting is realistic, like many have already said. The penalties may be a bit too harsh, but so what? They are good everywhere else.

How so? The only time I see dismounting as a good thing is in FE3 early game or any other FEs that would follow a similar style.

That and flying units (and avoiding cavalier effective weapons) but that hardly matters unless IS decides to have 45%+ of an FE game stacked with enemy Bow users... in which case flying units would be troublesome to use anyway.

Edited January 25, 2009 by Levin

[Fiora]

How so? The only time I see dismounting as a good thing is in FE3 early game or any other FEs that would follow a similar style.

That and flying units (and avoiding cavalier effective weapons) but that hardly matters unless IS decides to have 45%+ of an FE game stacked with enemy Bow users... in which case flying units would be troublesome to use anyway.

'They' = mounted units. They are better everywhere else compared to infantry. They deserve a penalty indoors.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

'They' = mounted units. They are better everywhere else compared to infantry. They deserve a penalty indoors.

That's only the case in games where they can move away after attacking. Just take that away, throw in a slight nerf to the class' base stats and you won't need a penalty like dismounting to balance things out.

In FESD H5 for example, mounted mobility means very little.

Edited January 25, 2009 by Levin

[Lord Raven]

Kashim says you suck, and Abel/Cain wouldnt mind keeping their res and move.

I'm sure I know what the penalties are for Kashim (I'm pretty sure he loses his Horseman gains, although his Horseman gains are shit to start out aside from the move). I have no clue what they are for Cavaliers/Paladins, or even if the Horseman thing is right. If you wouldn't mind, give me the specifics?

So the hell what? GAMEPLAY POINT OF PERSPECTIVE HERE.

The gameplay is based upon the story of the game and the general facts of it as well. Just because it's "pointless" gameplay-wise doesn't rule it out, because of the gameplay's reliance on story. By that logic we should just have random maps every time we play because the gameplay maps are completely dependent on story. <_<

STILL not justifying the re-addition of a retarded feature.

Also, nobody seemed to care about this thing in FE6. Or 7. Or 8. Or 9. Or 10.

Well in FE10 they gave them less move but didn't totally dismount them.

6-9, I have no clue why they didn't include dismounting. Oh well. Doesn't make it any less realistic or more retarded.

No, it's not fine, it's adding unnecessary bullshit that should have stayed dead. Nobody is EVER going to dismount units unless they're forced to. What the fuck is the point?

Crossing mountains/mountain bonus in general?

Who gives a shit? Realisim disrupting gameplay mechanics=not cool. It can't and shouldn't be added for the sole purpose of realism. That's bullshit.

At least they have a reason to stay dead because the game would be too piss easy otherwise.

You're going on about how

- dismounting apparently makes things harder, yet you're for character's permanent deaths because it makes the game too easy otherwise?

- how realism going into gameplay sucks for mounts, yet doesn't suck because the characters who die are gone forever?

Edited January 25, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Ike-Mike]

Even with all the magic and dragons Fire Emblem is still much more realistic than most of Nintendo's other franchises.

[Starwolf_UK]

FE11 doesn't have support convos at all, and I don't think they'd add them back in a book 2 remake.

It depends on if IS listen to critism and act on it as so far every review I've read has mentioned the lack of support conversations.

Celice's dismounting was supposedly just something they forgot to take out.

Given how it often glitches I'd say yes :( Its not even useful since awareness already removes the harm...well, it does get some use in Chpater 7 as dismounted can traverse the desert quicker)

Dismounting can also be used to remove a Pegasus Knight's bow weakness.

Comes in handy for Chapter 2 that does (you can chase the thief about if you like but the easiest way is fly up to him> dismount > kill > survive enemy archers > retreat) but even if dismounting is gone i'll have fun finding a new way to get the lady sword.

[dondon151]

Yeah, and not ONE SINGLE PERSON IN FE7 GAVE A FUCK THAT ISADORA RODE HER HORSE INDOORS NOW DID THEY SHERLOCK?

Not one single person was aware of dismounting's existence when he/she played FE7. Same goes with capturing - no one gives a flying fuck about it because no one knew it existed in a previous FE.

Because it's a retarded pointless feature and IS knows it.

Completely fallacious and you know it.

You're comparing gameplay mechanics FE is used to running on to unnecessary nerfs to mounted units. FE has gotten used to living without dismounting, and it can, should, and probably will stay that way.

It doesn't matter what mechanics FE is "used to" running on. Is every new feature disqualified from inclusion because FE isn't "used to" having it?

Your argument about "unneccesary nerfs" in FE5 only really applies to DKs, who have the worst dismounting penalties by a large margin. Dismounting penalties for every other class are almost negligible.

The only broken mount in FE4 is called Master Knight.

All others have horrible bases/caps. Are you really sure you've played that game?

Horrible bases/caps that don't matter because you units are raping regardless?

I mean, with road bonuses being everywhere and without rescuing, infantry units are almost never seeing action if you're charging ahead with mounted units.

[Dat Nick]

All others have horrible bases/caps. Are you really sure you've played that game?

Delmud, Serlis, Sigurd, Aless, and Yohan with the pursuit ring nobody else wants: Yo.

And please for the love of fick, don't try to argue Sigurd isn't ridicliously broken. The man gets easy 0%s on Axemen.

Characters>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Class.

Same goes with capturing - no one gives a flying fuck about it because no one knew it existed in a previous FE.

CAPTURING was taken out for a reason, too. It was the only reliable way to get weapons in FE5 since they were too ficking expensive and you got basically no money. If you could capture units AND buy weapons with FEDS's ecomony, things would be blown hugely out of proportion.

Completely fallacious and you know it.

Except I DO know it because nobody dismounted in FE5 unless they were forced to and it's a bullshit pointless option and I think YOU know it.

Dismounting penalties for every other class are almost negligible.

So what? Let's give Vyland -1 to all his bases because it's NEGLIGIBLE. Let's make Guile's Sonic Boom 2 frames slower. A neligible pointless nerf is still a pointless nerf. If you can come up with a half-decent gameplay reason to use dismounting, I'm listening. If your only reason is realism, fuck off.

And for the record, they really aren't that neligible. In Kashim's case, it's making a Low tier character's statistics worse than they already are. That's like making Gordin's growths suck even more.

Edited January 26, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[NoNameAtAll]

CAPTURING was taken out for a reason, too. It was the only reliable way to get weapons in FE5 since they were too ficking expensive and you got basically no money. If you could capture units AND buy weapons with FEDS's ecomony, things would be blown hugely out of proportion.

I do wish they'd bring back FE5's system. I liked capturing in some ways.

But only if they found a happy medium between FE5's weapon costs and...well...I dunno.

Except I DO know it because nobody dismounted in FE5 unless they were forced to and it's a bullshit pointless option and I think YOU know it.

Yup. Why would I want to have Finn use swords when I've got Shiva, who does a much better job at that? Finn with lances = good thanks to his mounting.

[Dat Nick]

Don't forget that it screws with Fin's move and stats.

And he can't use the hero lance or capture anything anymore.

...AND it's forcing him to use a lower mt weapon.

What practical use is there to dismount Fin when he isn't forced? None.

[dondon151]

A neligible pointless nerf is still a pointless nerf. If you can come up with a half-decent gameplay reason to use dismounting, I'm listening. If your only reason is realism, fuck off.

I did. It promotes unit diversity and shows specialization between unit types, which is present in every other SRPG to a higher degree.

And for the record, they really aren't that neligible. In Kashim's case, it's making a Low tier character's statistics worse than they already are. That's like making Gordin's growths suck even more.

They're negligible if they reduce overkill to slightly less overkill or if they reduce terrible to slightly less terrible. Your example with Guile isn't the best comparison because small frame advantages in fighting games always matter whereas small stat advantages in FE don't always matter.

[Dat Nick]

It promotes unit diversity and shows specialization between unit types, which is present in every other SRPG to a higher degree.

No? All it does is screw with unit stats. If by specialization between unit types you mean "Gee, I REALLY wish Carrion could get his ass on his horse right now", then yeah, I guess.

They're negligible if they reduce overkill to slightly less overkill or if they reduce terrible to slightly less terrible.

Yeah great, except it's not overkill. Look at the FE7 cavs. Does THAT look like Overkill to you? Even with move and canto none of them would be in high tier. Don't believe me? Check out FE6/10. THOSE guys sure don't need canto to be top tier. The only thing dismounting does is make cavs pwn foot units outdoors and on the same level as indoors. It accomplishes NOTHING. So instead of bringing back a retarded feature that accomplishes nothing, why don't we make changes to the overall gameplay that accomplish SOMETHING?

Cavs are broken because of stats, rather than move, and it's easily fixed. Make an AK who's actually good and don't make the cavs demigods in the stats department, and bring back class promotion items like Knight Crest. Bingo, Cavs aren't top tier anymore, and dismounting didn't have to rear it's ugly-ass head.

Also, even with Gordin, +1 to all stats is NOT neligible at all. He needs all the help he can get. He might rise a slot or two in bottom tier if that existed.

Your example with Guile isn't the best comparison because small frame advantages in fighting games always matter whereas small stat advantages in FE don't always matter.

Except you totally missed the point of my comparison. EVEN a negligible nerf to a character who doesn't need it is retarded. Also consider that Guile is one of the last characters who needs a nerf: He's only one tier up on Gief and Fei, who are both in the bottom 5. What you're essentially saying is that it's okay to debuff crappy characters [Hey, let's take 1 off of all of Gordin's stats, because it's NEGLIGIBLE!] which actually isn't okay. Negligible nerfs are retarded in the first place. If you're going to make a nerf, make it so it actually does something, okay? Otherwise, what the fuck is the point?

Edited January 26, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[NoNameAtAll]

Don't forget that it screws with Fin's move and stats.

And he can't use the hero lance or capture anything anymore.

...AND it's forcing him to use a lower mt weapon.

What practical use is there to dismount Fin when he isn't forced? None.

Yup. That and it actually would dissuade people from using different units due to the screwy nerfs. I mean, when fighting indoors, who's preferred? Othin? Who remains great regardless of indoors or not. Or Fin? Who loses all of his practical use?

And if anyone brings up the weapon triangle due to some enemies using axes, I'll bring up FE5's RNG where Avoid means little to nothing.

[Lord Raven]

You are the most uncivilized person I know online.

So what? Let's give Vyland -1 to all his bases because it's NEGLIGIBLE. Let's make Guile's Sonic Boom 2 frames slower. A neligible pointless nerf is still a pointless nerf. If you can come up with a half-decent gameplay reason to use dismounting, I'm listening. If your only reason is realism, fuck off.

I'm sorry but there's no half-decent gameplay reason to have characters die forever(other than to promote difficulty... which the dismounting does to an extent). It's supposed to promote realism... just like dismounting would.

[NoNameAtAll]

You are the most uncivilized person I know online.

I'm sorry but there's no half-decent gameplay reason to have characters die forever(other than to promote difficulty... which the dismounting does to an extent). It's supposed to promote realism... just like dismounting would.

I suppose in real life, bishops can use staves to heal wounds that would otherwise make us bleed to death?

I suppose in real life, people can use said staves to bring a person back to life?

Hell, in FE4, Celice can dismount. But no sane person would dismount him because movement means plenty in FE4.

Hey! I have an idea! Let's bring fatigue back! That's realistic!

Edited January 26, 2009 by Shiva

[Dat Nick]

You are the most uncivilized person I know online.

I try.

I'm sorry but there's no half-decent gameplay reason to have characters die forever

Sure there is. restarting the chapter if you screw up, promoting careful use of units, etc. But if it bugs you that much, I'm sure we can manage without it later, since no further participation in chapter is almost as bad.

It's supposed to promote realism...

You're STILL shooting that bull off? Sorry, realism as the only practical reason to do it is NOT acceptable. You don't see guys who can morph into an exact carbon copy of people, now do you? You don't see real military leaders killing off their units so they can get into gaiden chapters, now do you? You don't see women with funny hair colors using magic tricks to warp Zagaro to the throne, NOW DO YOU? If dismounting gets in, this shit goes out, because WE MUST HAVE REALISTIC FE LOLZ.

FE is a gameplay driven series. Adding a feature that will screw with the gameplay for REALISM'S sake is utterly stupid.

Hey! I have an idea! Let's bring fatigue back! That's realistic!

In all honesty? This is a GOOD example of a feature that should be bought back, because unlike The most retarded aspect ever implemented in FE dismounting, it actually accomplished something: You finally had a reason to level up/use guys like Vyland/Ceaser/Palla and whatnot, and you couldn't have Sedgar and Wolf owning every single chapter. It's also a plus for Marth since he has no fatigue bar and can be used every chapter.

Edited January 26, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[dondon151]

No? All it does is screw with unit stats. If by specialization between unit types you mean "Gee, I REALLY wish Carrion could get his ass on his horse right now", then yeah, I guess.

Uhh... it makes mounts more useful outdoors and infantry more useful indoors?

Yeah great, except it's not overkill. Look at the FE7 cavs. Does THAT look like Overkill to you? Even with move and canto none of them would be in high tier. Don't believe me? Check out FE6/10. THOSE guys sure don't need canto to be top tier. The only thing dismounting does is make cavs pwn foot units outdoors and on the same level as indoors. It accomplishes NOTHING. So instead of bringing back a retarded feature that accomplishes nothing, why don't we make changes to the overall gameplay that accomplish SOMETHING?

I'm not quite sure what you mean as you seem to be contradicting yourself a couple of times (or maybe you're not and it's just poorly organized). FE7 cavs are high tier. FE6 cavs, in addition to having great stats and availability, have move advantages. Dismounting makes mounts inferior to foot units because they have the same move as an armor and are stuck with a secondary weapon type, as well as small stat penalties (namely defense). This somehow still accomplishes nothing?

Cavs are broken because of stats, rather than move, and it's easily fixed. Make an AK who's actually good and don't make the cavs demigods in the stats department, and bring back class promotion items like Knight Crest. Bingo, Cavs aren't top tier anymore, and dismounting didn't have to rear it's ugly-ass head.

Between a cavalier and a sword+lance wielding foot unit, the cavalier is better. Class-specific promotion items don't discourage use of mounts, it only discourages promotion of mounts.

Also, even with Gordin, +1 to all stats is NOT neligible at all. He needs all the help he can get. He might rise a slot or two in bottom tier if that existed.

-1 to stats, not +1 to stats. -1 to stats just makes a piece of shit smell more like a piece of shit.

Except you totally missed the point of my comparison. EVEN a negligible nerf to a character who doesn't need it is retarded. Also consider that Guile is one of the last characters who needs a nerf: He's only one tier up on Gief and Fei, who are both in the bottom 5. What you're essentially saying is that it's okay to debuff crappy characters [Hey, let's take 1 off of all of Gordin's stats, because it's NEGLIGIBLE!] which actually isn't okay. Negligible nerfs are retarded in the first place. If you're going to make a nerf, make it so it actually does something, okay? Otherwise, what the fuck is the point?

The nerf discourages use of mounts indoors. I think I've said this enough. Furthermore, I said that small stat penalties in FE are occasionally negligible nerfs while frame penalties in fighting games are never negligible nerfs.

Yup. That and it actually would dissuade people from using different units due to the screwy nerfs. I mean, when fighting indoors, who's preferred? Othin? Who remains great regardless of indoors or not. Or Fin? Who loses all of his practical use?

This suggested preference is the point. Othin is a great unit no matter where he is because of availability, stats, skills and weapons, but a fairer comparison would be someone like Machua, who is better indoors than say, Fin, while losing to him outdoors.

And if anyone brings up the weapon triangle due to some enemies using axes, I'll bring up FE5's RNG where Avoid means little to nothing.

More valid would be that weapon triangle is +/- 5%.

I'd like to add that fatigue and dismounting accomplish about the same thing.

Edited January 26, 2009 by dondon151

[NoNameAtAll]

In all honesty? This is a GOOD example of a feature that should be bought back, because unlike The most retarded aspect ever implemented in FE dismounting, it actually accomplished something: You finally had a reason to level up/use guys like Vyland/Ceaser/Palla and whatnot, and you couldn't have Sedgar and Wolf owning every single chapter. It's also a plus for Marth since he has no fatigue bar and can be used every chapter.

Ah point. But it would also promote using Est. Ok, not really.

Hey, it would give CAPTAIN GORDIN, DEFENDER OF THE UNIVERSE an excuse to see play on occasion.

In any case, things like dismounting make crappy units like say...Glade even more worthless.

Off-topic: And MightyZagaro? You aren't THE most uncivilized. That would be Endgame.

[Dat Nick]

Uhh... it makes mounts more useful outdoors and infantry more useful indoors?

Too bad mounts are still pwning infantry overall because...

A: Indoor chapters aren't very common

B: Mounted units have a huge win on infantry on outdoor maps

C: Mounted units are pretty much on the same level as infantry when dismounted

See why dismounting is so retarded? It aims to balance out mounted units, but it doesn't at all, and that's why IS is going to keep it dead, because they KNOW it didn't balance mounted units out.

FE7 cavs are high tier.

That's still not as high as most of the rest of the cavs are. Alan and Lance are Top tier. Kieran and Oscar are Top tier. Cain and Abel are Top tier. ...See any pattern?

Dismounting makes mounts inferior to foot units because they have the same move as an armor and are stuck with a secondary weapon type, as well as small stat penalties (namely defense). This somehow still accomplishes nothing?

No, it doesn't, because now instead of raping your infantry, they're neck and neck, but this doesn't even come close to compensating for how much more useful your cavs are in outdoor chapters, which are in far greater quantity.

Between a cavalier and a sword+lance wielding foot unit, the cavalier is better. Class-specific promotion items don't discourage use of mounts, it only discourages promotion of mounts.

^ totally irrelevant to what I just said, poster very clearly did not comprehend entire idea at all

The nerf discourages use of mounts indoors. I think I've said this enough.

Too bad it did a shitty job at this for reasons I've stated already.

I'd like to add that fatigue and dismounting accomplish about the same thing.

Except no. Fatigue gave a reason for lower tier characters to see use in normal play. Dismounting kept overpowered characters overpowered.

Off-topic: And MightyZagaro? You aren't THE most uncivilized. That would be Endgame.

Endgame is a retard, not uncivilized. I won't deny I'm a dick, but I really don't care. Piss me off and I'll be glad to take a swing at you.

Edited January 26, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[NoNameAtAll]

Except no. Fatigue gave a reason for lower tier characters to see use in normal play. Dismounting kept overpowered characters overpowered.

That's the biggie. On the off chance you've lost some units and some of the better ones are fatigued, you'd actually have a reason to use characters like Glade. (I'd say Selphina, but...ick).

But dismounting wouldn't make Glade played any more often than he usually would. The nerf would REALLY drag him down into the stock-heap of crap. Whereas say...Felgus simply laughs at the pitiful attempt at nerfing.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Shiva

[Dat Nick]

Especially since Free Knight cuts aren't as drastic and Fergus gets to keep his weapon.

...Not that Fergus WANTS to keep his weapon (Unless it's Beowulf's Sword], but still.

Edited January 26, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[Dat Nick]

EDIT: Crap double post, internet was screwing up

Edited January 26, 2009 by MightyZagaro