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grandjackal

Efficiency Tier List?

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I just thought of this, and it seems there's no list at all here. Mind if I make one? Keep in mind I haven't made one before, so this is BOUND to be GREATLY INACCURATE. But that's what discussion is for, no? Besides, where better to contain random debates than at a tier list where it is actually nice to have?

Also, if you got problems with stats, here's an easier time for ya. http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmstats.html It's not ALL enemy stats, but it's an average of most at the least. Do keep that in mind.

Unfortunately, there are little to no Sacae stats, and this is all we got so far, chapter 18. http://www.mediafire.com/?uljyynro2jm http://www.mediafire.com/?uljyynro2jm

Mekkah has come to save the day. http://s11.zetaboards.com/Fire_Emblem_Fusion/topic/390764/1/#new http://s11.zetaboards.com/Fire_Emblem_Fusi...c/390764/1/#new Sacae info is easily found there.

More Sacae info http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ig5zgizfyji http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ig5zgizfyji - Sacae stats, http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?kndnmt2tqow http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?kndnmt2tqow - Enemy unit list.

Map info and enemy numbers, along with boss stats, can be found here. http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6.htm http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6.htm It is in spanish, but it works off pictures, and easy to navigate regardless. Got questions that you can't read into, Sirius is a person who can translate. If you can help out here, please do so.

Man, we need to get Sacae stats organized in one collection...

Seems we have, thanks to Bal. http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zjvc5kmdwgi http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zjvc5kmdwgi

Well, let's get this shindig started.

To add to this, the criteria for my list.

-Characters will be measured throughout the game, none of this use them till they drop dead deal. Out the box does get you points, but the fact it can only last you so long shall be taken into account.

-Who gets the first of a crest is not an issue, what should be considered is who is able to put to use the first ones you get the soonest. Example-Rutger and Deick chances are will be able to put the first crest to use before any other hero archtype. It is an advantage for both. Only when they are being measured to eachother should it be questioned. Otherwise if you're in different class types, you can't just say "But he's taking a crest from Deick", as your guy might be taking a ring from another mage, or a knight crest from another knight archtype.

-Supports are tricky. If you don't need them, you are a standalone unit. This means you are allowing others to build supports freely without interrupting the flow. This also leaves your army choice flexible, as you are not character dependent. However, if your supports can mean the difference between sucking and godliness, it shall be considered with great thought. Another set is how flexible you are support-wise. If you can buff anyone fairly, but can be flexible to a team (as with Klein's support list all having their own supports, but he can easily replace empty slots if the supportee's supporter is not in play), again it shall be considered. Speed will be taken into account, as will bonuses in relation to the character, and exactly how good that character is with or without one another. Also note who they are supporting and how well they effect the supporter. Example, Lance and Allen are kick ass units on their own. They support eachother and kick even more ass. Support Roy, not only are they now destroying ass, but they're helping a VIP on the team be much safer and hit harder. Thus overall, it's a pure net benefit that lasts the entire game, and thus will have an incredibly profound effect on their performance.

-More weapon control you got, the better.

-If you can become fast enough to negate con being a factor, then con is no longer a disadvantage.

-If your durability can make up for dodge, it will be noted.

-Weapon rank rarely comes into play in this game, but if you pull an advantage, it shall be noted.

-Mobility is always a good thing

-Utility is to be accounted for (rescuing, transportation, staff use, etc.)

-It's possible to be more trouble than you're worth for a slot.

Think it's starting to get standard now, so I'll stop here.

-Master of Puppets Tier-

Lance

Alan

Deick

Clarine

Rutger

-High Tier-

Miredy

Percival

Echidna

Chad

Lalum

Elphin

Marcus

-Upper Mid Tier-

Gonzales

Thany

Shin

Lot

Saul

Roy

Ellen

Ashtor

Fir

Klein

Lou

Cecilia

-Lower Mid Tier-

Bartre

Tate

OJ

Geese

Noah

Zealot

Treck

Ward

Fa

Niime

Ray

Lillina

Garret

Douglas

Barth

-Low Tier-

Cath

Hue

Boris

Zeiss

Igrene

Dayan

Yodel

-Kenny G Tier-

Merlinus

Walt

Karel

Dorothy

Sue

-Graveyard Tier-

Juno

Sophiya

Wendy

The list will be edited in this post whenever changes are decided on.

Yeah, very inaccurate I'm sure, so tear it apart and let's get this thing started.

For Hard Mode of course, thank you Balcerzak for the reminder.

Woops, forgot Igrenee

Edited by Galactica Leader Cyrus

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Echidna to Upper Mid, and OJ at least to Lower Mid.

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where's Igrene? I don't see her anywhere on the list; minor nitpicky things of my own reckoning: Hugh a bit lower since you need to pay the highest of his offers to get the best out of him and he'll then use up an extra promotion item; I was going to question Oujay's placement but all things considered he is frailer than Dieck and has a crappy affinity and far worse supports, so I agree with that; should Cecilia be slightly higher since this is an "efficiency" tier list and yes she's worthless in combat? then again so's Lalum/Elphin and your other staff users not called Clarine after promotion; still she can heal decently and has a great affinity that will make any and all of her supports better, I would move her at least two notches up, but that's my opinion

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Which mode? I'll assume hard for now.

Starting from the bottom and working my way up. I think Fa and Thany are too low.

True, Fa's limited stone uses does hurt her in efficiency only, pretty badly, but I don't think it's as crippling as you make it out to be here, as she still devastates. Her other big minus is her low movement, especially compared to all your promoted peeps, so she won't be making it too much higher in the list for sure, but I could very conceivably see her moving above almost everyone else in the Kenny G tier, simply for raw nuke potential. Her join time is pretty good to her, actually, as if she follows the left hand path into the castle, she'll hit the area where the reinforcements come right as they'll be popping out, and while she can't immediately one-shot the mercs or warriors, if I recall correctly the mage reinforcements are like candy to her, so she really doesn't need any excess babying like Lilina or Sue would. She's forced in end-game (provided you don't kill her off), so she's not completely redundant in rankless like Cass would be (as in my opinion the only reason to use her is to keep gaining xp with your thieves until they all cap, which no longer matters).

Either you underestimate Thany's flier utility in the massive amount of chapters before Miredy shows up, or overestimate her statistical fail (or I am relying too much on personal experience here). Particularly in Chapter 11 (Lalum) she was vital for efficient playthrough, in ferrying multiple dudes into the arena segment, allowing one to clear that out early, instead of racing completely around the rest of the map to meet them halfway. Also she's pretty essential for taming Tate and company, if you care about getting a free whip from them (if not then I guess in efficient play you could just kill them all). Note also that going to Ilia is the most efficient of the two paths to go down, so you really ought to be using her a fair bit, especially in contrast to people you'd want to bench forever as soon as you hit battle preparation menu in chapter six (Wolt, Bors, Ward, I'm looking at you).

Merlinus is technically a unit. Bottom of the bottom tier for him, please.

I also think you're heavily underestimating Cecilia's usefulness. She's coming in with good staff rank, and can use Restore off the bat, freeing up your promoted first tier stave users to actually spend time attacking, instead of constantly healing. Sure her magic and speed are pretty pathetic, but it's usually enough to keep her from being doubled, so that's what counts. Even relying solely on staff utility to spread the healing/curing load she's helping the team more than trash like the armor knights.

Why is there a 2+ tier gap between Elphin and Lalum? I don't remember him being that much worse than her, could you elaborate a bit?

You left out Igrene. I'm not sure where best to put her. Somewhere in the vicinity of Zeiss/Tate would probably work.

Marcus needs to go up a little more, I think. Sure he's only really useful up until chapter 7, but damn how useful that is. I consider Lot solidly mediocre, so I'd prefer to see Marcus above him, but I guess that might be a judgement call.

I cannot honestly see why the tier gap between Saul and Ellen exists. Ellen has a few chapters availability lead, but that's about it. Aside from that it's a competition between avoid and concrete durability, if I remember correctly, and I don't remember overwhelming advantages on either side of the equation there.

As much as it pains me to say it, I think you have Gonzo too high. He can struggle to hit, even with pampering like Lilina support, and missing your foe kills your efficiency. He's definitely below Percival, who is rock solid, probably below the (good) thieves, and possibly below even Roy.

Rutger above Dieck. Seriously. Dieck starts strong, like a mini-Jeigan, but tends to fade as time grows on. Rutger is consistently a boss-killing beast, especially when the thrones give such huge avoid.

My gut feel is that Clarine is also too high, but I'm not sure I can really back that one up.

Edited by Balcerzak

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Echidna to Upper Mid, and OJ at least to Lower Mid.

Concerning Echidna: Laulum and Gonzales would like a word with you, they say you're wrong. She gets killer avoid and nice defense, along with a small bit of crit. Throw in not needing a promotion item and she's golden.

Concerning OJ: Why? Starts bad, shit supports with shit affinities, having a shit affinity of his own, only develops to be Lyn with better weapon selection, which he can't use to his advantage thanks to his shitty con. Only reason he's in low is because his ability to double is nice.

To Balcerzak: Concerning Fa- Well she's got crap durability, melee range and a shitty start that DOES get better- OH WAIT, she ran out of stones! Devastating my ass, everyone's doing better and will continue to do so, before she can get GREAT she runs out of stones. She needs to be spoonfed kills to end up useless. We can't save her up for endgame either as she'll be torn apart endgame. She's useless.

Concerning Thany- Actually, I might be underestimating her. She could actually get supports from Ward and Lot to get power quite quick, and they can support eachother. Lot ain't all that bad and Ward could use more reasons to have more power and crit. Thany's flier utility would be great if she weren't fragile, the weakness of her Wind affinity showing greatly here, so it's not out of thought to think she won't be near these guys. She could be higher I guess, but how much higher exactly? Your thoughts?

Gave Merlinus his own tier.

Actually, someone brought up Cecilia on AIM with me. She's DEINITELY better than OJ, she could move just below Niime. Everyone's thoughts?

I put Marcus where he is with that all considered.

Ellen actually has a support that would love having her around due to lack of options and would LOVE power (Lou), having more power, both get destroyed anyways, his offense still isn't great with his weaker power and light magic sucking, her power helping with the range of status staves...there's a huge difference between the two, Saul's basically a replacement. He's still decent, but Ellen has much more useful.

Gonzo supports Echidna, he doesn't need a lot of babying as he's pretty durable at the start, he's just uber powerful, his only problem is his hit. He could go lower, but he's not gonna drop like a stone by any means.

Deick was there for more time and he also doesn't start needing to rely on the killing edge for offense. Once the supports kick in he's golden, but Deick is great throughout and gets axes for hammer and poleaxe time.Better durability too. They're near equal, but his extra time with your force is his boon.

Clarine+ Rutiger B, Deick B and Lance B or just A Rutiger B Deick + Great sped and luck = untouchable.There's like no other unit that can just be untouchable aside from Lalum, but lalum can't counter with magic or heal with high mobility.

Edited by Grandjackal

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Concerning OJ: Why? Starts bad, shit supports with shit affinities, having a shit affinity of his own, only develops to be Lyn with better weapon selection, which he can't use to his advantage thanks to his shitty con. Only reason he's in low is because his ability to double is nice.

Starts in a chapter with many armours and a armour killer, ends up as a less better Dieck. He's too low, that's what bugs me.

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Starts in a chapter with many armours and a armour killer, ends up as a less better Dieck. He's too low, that's what bugs me.

Yes, that oh so durable armorslayer that others could put to better use while at the same time those armors will counter and turn him to swiss cheese. All to have someone WORSE than the other 2 heroes? Blech!

Forgot to mention Elphin.

*ahem* Worse supports, worse affinity, requires you to go Bartre route to miss out on a lot of goodies. Individually, Lalum has better evade as Elphin's durability is garbage anyways.

Clarine above Elphin, who here agrees?

Edited by Grandjackal

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All to have someone WORSE than the other 2 heroes? Blech!

Worse than great = good.

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Not with the time it takes to make him go from blech to subpar.

Bleh, maybe that's just me, but maybe I can't see him THAT low. Nor Shin.

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Bleh, maybe that's just me, but maybe I can't see him THAT low. Nor Shin.

Shin is mainly because he sends you to Sacae which is 1. Harder, 2. More troublesome for various types of units (mages and fliers to be specific), and 3. is just annoying. He's basically being used as soon as Ilia because if we're using him earlier, it means using the pegasi to balance it out. I could see a bit of rethinking about this whole thing though, so if people give good reasons, the positions of the nomads and pegasi could change.

OJ is right where he is.

Edited by Grandjackal

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Actually Shin doesn't automatically send you to Sacae, you might just recruit him and bench Sue, if the path is that hard.

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Actually Shin doesn't automatically send you to Sacae, you might just recruit him and bench Sue, if the path is that hard.

A nomad getting even 1 more exp than your pegasi and your ass goes to Sacae. Using him ealier means using pegasi more. If someone can argue Thany above him, they BOTH can move up.

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hmm.. this is a pretty solid tier list, nice work ;)

looking at characters from an efficiency standpoint...I never would have thought of that

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hmm.. this is a pretty solid tier list, nice work ;)

looking at characters from an efficiency standpoint...I never would have thought of that

Danke.

Efficiency seems to be the latest way to think this over, considering ranks are more detrimental than anything. We got lots of stuff to sell for better equipment, why not sell them? Why worry about an exp rank when we can just run through without being forced to use certain units just to get the rank up? We still wanna get through as fast as we can, but more importantly as CLEANLY as we can. Ranks are more restricting than not.

Anything you wish to discuss about it?

Edited by Grandjackal

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Danke.

Efficiency seems to be the latest way to think this over, considering ranks are more detrimental than anything. We got lots of stuff to sell for better equipment, why not sell them? Why worry about an exp rank when we can just run through without being forced to use certain units just to get the rank up? We still wanna get through as fast as we can, but more importantly as CLEANLY as we can. Ranks are more restricting than not.

Anything you wish to discuss about it?

Oh no i think I'm good, I've only played through this game once and haven't had the tenacity to tackle a ranked run.... but when i do muster the courage, i'll take into consideration some of the points you've made in this discussion

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Efficiency is exactly why you need to be using Shin>Pegs.

If you use higher speed units, your ok in Sacae, and Shin is easily the most efficient Wyvern Slyaer you have. Also, Dayan can be a reliable wyrmslayer if needed, while Yuno is guranteed to ride the bench. You want Sacae.

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Efficiency is exactly why you need to be using Shin>Pegs.

If you use higher speed units, your ok in Sacae, and Shin is easily the most efficient Wyvern Slyaer you have. Also, Dayan can be a reliable wyrmslayer if needed, while Yuno is guranteed to ride the bench. You want Sacae.

Except that Nomads can double your units in Hard Mode Sacae, which is really, really bad, not to mention very tough bosses like Gel, and the high durability Wyverns. No one cares about Yuno or Dayan, as they both suck, so you probably won't use either, and the point is moot. Ilia has...

Pegasus Knights that basically anyone can double.

Wow.

Also, causing your entire team to suffer through Sacae just so you can use Shin, when another unit can easily do his job, is a big no-no.

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Except that Nomads can double your units in Hard Mode Sacae, which is really, really bad, not to mention very tough bosses like Gel, and the high durability Wyverns. No one cares about Yuno or Dayan, as they both suck, so you probably won't use either, and the point is moot. Ilia has...

Pegasus Knights that basically anyone can double.

Wow.

Also, causing your entire team to suffer through Sacae just so you can use Shin, when another unit can easily do his job, is a big no-no.

And it doesn't help that Sacae has Monke, who has a Brave Bow AND a Brave Sword, in addition to an Elixir. And going to Sacae means having to suffer through two Fog of War maps.

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In case anyone cares, here's the most recent HM list from GFaqs.

Top:

Rutger

Lance

Alan

Clarine

Dieck

Percival

Miledy

High:

Echidna

Lugh

Gonzales [Lalam Route]

Fir

Chad

Astol

Lalum

Elphin

Upper Middle:

Saul

Gonzales [Elphin Route]

Geese

Tate

Shin

Noah

Oujay

Treck

Roy

Lot

Ellen

Klein

Lower Middle:

Marcus

Ray

Fa

Zeiss

Dayan

Garret

Igrene

Hugh

Thany

Cath

Bartre

Zealot

Yodel

Low:

Cecilia

Ward

Douglas

Niime

Dorothy

Bors

Barth

Wolt

Lilina

Sue

Bottom:

Karel

Yunno

Sophia

Wendy

It's about a year old though, so we might want to make a new one.

I'll look at yours in detail later, but I first suggest Rutger > Dieck for wtfmassive critical and only slightly less availability.

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It's about a year old though, so we might want to make a new one.

It's also based on ranks, which sends Hugh at least up a tier and the theives down at least one.

And the Hero Crest situation becomes less of a problem.

...And yes, Shin sending you to Sacae does fuck you up. But not so badly that he deserves to be below WARD. Just his HM boosts make him own the living crap out of Ward.

Don't even TRY to argue earlygame utility for Ward, either. The only utility he has is the sense that he's not TOTALLY failing.

...I'd question Cecilia>Shin, too. He should move up, he can at least function decently underlevelled considering his bases are still pretty good, and he grows fast as hell, and promoting at 10s always an option for swords, and how much competition does he have for those Orion Bolts?

btw, what are the cavs doing above Rutger? What's Dieck doing above Rutger, for that matter? Show me one example where Dieck ever> Rutger.

Edited by Vyland

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For the top tiers, I usually prefer Rutger in top, but it's a judgement call. The cavs obviously win earlygame, then Rutger wins due to massive Spd for a while, though the cavs still have their amazing supports while Rutger's supports are fairly sluggish. Rutger wins at bosskilling, but Lance and Alan are likely to take the trophy against more enemies due to higher move, and Lance in particular can double reliably against most. Rutger should definitely be above Dieck though.

Gonzales is likely too high. He has a huge problem that other dudes up there do not have: hit. You can't rely on him to do his massive damage, so sometimes he'll be stuck in a chokepoint with an alive enemy. Fanboys will likely hate me for it, but I think he's better in Upper Mid, right above Roy.

Lugh is too high as well. Just look at his stats, and how much his durability blows for a long time. His utility can easily be argued as negative. Someone like Percival, who is consistently good when he joins, could be above him. Chad and Ashtol's thief utility can be argued as better. Hell, at least Roy doesn't use up a unit slot, and has 2 chapters of god mode, Rapier and 2 great supporters. I'd go as far and say that Ellen > Lugh.

Miledy was usually placed in God tier before. I'd say bottom of God is more appropiate, but maybe Lalum should go there too, iono.

Fir can go to bottom of High, imo. Definitely a lot better than all the "mehs" in Upper Mid. Roy, in particular, gets trounced by her huge AS/crit, especially since she promotes earlier. But I'd have to look deeper at that, as I'm sure Roy has durability leads.

Cecilia > all those fighting failures in Lower Mid, thanks to her staff utility, Aircalibur and mount. Niime is a lot like her, except worse magic type, availability, movement, etc, so she should be above Niime at least.

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It's also based on ranks, which sends Hugh at least up a tier and the theives down at least one.

And the Hero Crest situation becomes less of a problem.

...And yes, Shin sending you to Sacae does fuck you up. But not so badly that he deserves to be below WARD. Just his HM boosts make him own the living crap out of Ward.

Don't even TRY to argue earlygame utility for Ward, either. The only utility he has is the sense that he's not TOTALLY failing.

...I'd question Cecilia>Shin, too. He should move up, he can at least function decently underlevelled considering his bases are still pretty good, and he grows fast as hell, and promoting at 10s always an option for swords, and how much competition does he have for those Orion Bolts?

btw, what are the cavs doing above Rutger? What's Dieck doing above Rutger, for that matter? Show me one example where Dieck ever> Rutger.

*in Tim Curry's voice* Let's go through teh events of the evening, step by step...

We recall that Shin will send your ass to Sacae with even minimum use as he's pretty much statistically and utility-wise better than both pegasi. We go to Sacae and the nomads hand our asses to us on a silver platter. This means we don't want to go to Sacae. Meaning he's starting his real career on our path to Ilia. First chapter he's not doing shit unless we let him sit there and abuse the pegasi reinforcements, which he can't take care of by himself as he can't counter close range. Then Ilia really comes along and is pegasus heavy. He CAN kill them easy, but so can everyone else with half a brain.He's not killing cavs or paladins, the heroes, he's ballistae and sniper tome fodder, he's not doing SHIT to Roartz, and teh gaiden is just too damn easy for him to be considered incredibly useful. Then chapter 24 rears it's ugly head demanding virgin sacrifices. Let's say by some miracle of god he's promoted at a competent level by now. He's still a glorified archer with swords in a chapter with a shitload of cavaliers and wyverns. He's a detriment here rather than help. Then the last chapters come rolling around where he's just being mobile and shooting things while not countering. Endgame, he gets Miugre with only mobility making him unique with said bow. All that trouble to be good in one chapter? Karel sucks for a reason.

WARD on the other hand is not only doing pretty good in some key earlygame chapters, he's serving a UNIQUE function of being one of the two wielders of the Halberd and Maxwell's Silver Hammer. One shotting armors and cavs is delicious as they're incredibly fucking annoying. This alone pretty much sets him a good bit above Shin.

For the top tiers, I usually prefer Rutger in top, but it's a judgement call. The cavs obviously win earlygame, then Rutger wins due to massive Spd for a while, though the cavs still have their amazing supports while Rutger's supports are fairly sluggish. Rutger wins at bosskilling, but Lance and Alan are likely to take the trophy against more enemies due to higher move, and Lance in particular can double reliably against most. Rutger should definitely be above Dieck though.

Gonzales is likely too high. He has a huge problem that other dudes up there do not have: hit. You can't rely on him to do his massive damage, so sometimes he'll be stuck in a chokepoint with an alive enemy. Fanboys will likely hate me for it, but I think he's better in Upper Mid, right above Roy.

Lugh is too high as well. Just look at his stats, and how much his durability blows for a long time. His utility can easily be argued as negative. Someone like Percival, who is consistently good when he joins, could be above him. Chad and Ashtol's thief utility can be argued as better. Hell, at least Roy doesn't use up a unit slot, and has 2 chapters of god mode, Rapier and 2 great supporters. I'd go as far and say that Ellen > Lugh.

Miledy was usually placed in God tier before. I'd say bottom of God is more appropiate, but maybe Lalum should go there too, iono.

Fir can go to bottom of High, imo. Definitely a lot better than all the "mehs" in Upper Mid. Roy, in particular, gets trounced by her huge AS/crit, especially since she promotes earlier. But I'd have to look deeper at that, as I'm sure Roy has durability leads.

Cecilia > all those fighting failures in Lower Mid, thanks to her staff utility, Aircalibur and mount. Niime is a lot like her, except worse magic type, availability, movement, etc, so she should be above Niime at least.

- Rutger has bleh earlygame without the killing edge, which any other sword user could probably use at this point. The cavs are always good throughout, not to mention being one of the three reasons Roy isn't going solo in the start, Deick showing up to practically solo half the map on a fort. Rutger might have killer offense later after his slow supports build up along with great avoid, but so do the others above him along with better durability and weapon choices to skirt having a WTD.

- Gonzales's cheap weapons also no longer being a factor, I guess Gonzales is dropping. Right above Roy sounds perfect to me.

- Ellen over Lugh? I dunno, you'll have to get a bit more in-depth with that one. Ray's in upper-mid now, he's got a decent support to help boost his avoid AND is helping a dark mage's hit. Hue's support is slow though.

- Miledy comes a bit later and Lalum is making Echidna and Klein move again along with supporting good units, something Miledy doesn't have. Methinks Miledy is fine where she is, now matter how good a flying tank she is.

- Fir's only realistic support is Noah, who is not only usually miles ahead of her in movement, but also doesn't boost her crit while making her offense on par until promotion. Her start doesn't help either. She develops well, but there is a glaring flaw to her.

- Wow, people are rooting for Ceclia ABOVE lower mid? I suppose she can go above Saul...That, and it could actually make her clim even MORE, now that she's basically in the same league as Saul, boosting eachother's defense and avoid, and being Percival's only realistic support to further boost avoid. Her offense might be bleh without aircalibur (as much win as it is), but she definitely could do worse. Very well then, setting her below Hue.

Edited by Grandjackal

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