Efficiency Tier List?

[Mekkah]

- Rutger has bleh earlygame without the killing edge

Excuse me? There is not an enemy out there he doesn't double, and he can drop his AS to Alance levels with heavier weapons to improve his Atk. Think Steel Sword/Iron Blade. And Killing Edge is there, and so is Armorslayer. Hell, calling his earlygame mediocre then praising Dieck is pretty funny.

[Dat Nick]

10/1 Shin, B Fir [A at times but it doesn't really help that much] vs other guys in Low:

32 HP, 15 str, 19 spd, 9 def, 55 avo

20/4 Ward loses everything, including durability since I bet he's going to get doubled by most enemies. He wins strength by like 7 points, not even close to compensate for not doubling. Yes, slayers helps. Other units want them too. Locked to

2 range>>Needing effective bonus to kill. Ward's fucked against anything he can't Halberd or Hammer to death, and even worse, he's going to have some hit issues as well, since swords are getting more and more common: At least more common than they used to be. Also, guess what Slayer weapons have little of? Yeah, that's right, HIT. This isn't even bringing in Shin's move into the equation. Add all this together and even Shin at 10/1>>>>Ward.

Also, it's not like Thany/Tate are getting NO EXP whatsoever. You're forced to bring in Thany for several chapters and Tate starts off solid, so it's not a serious crime to give them some EXP before benching them.

Rutger has bleh earlygame without the killing edge

Base Rutger, Steel Sword: 17 atk, 15 AS

The cavs: Way less

Deick showing up to practically solo half the map on a fort.

One chapter of utility doesn't make up for how badly Rutger>>>>>Him.

after his slow supports build up along with great avoid

Yeah, and guess who his preferred A is? If Rutger's supports are slow, Dieck's are even slower. Rutger's actually in a BETTER situation than Dieck since he gets Clarine faster, so if his supports are slow, I can't even begin to imagine how painfully so Dieck's must be.

but so do the others above him along with better durability

A: Better durability? How? Rutger's avo is actually reliable, so don't be giving me anything about concrete leads unless it's significant.

B: Crit functions as better durability. On the player phase, there's a 90% something chance that enemy won't be able to live to counter Rutger. And if they get lucky and miss the crit, THEN they have to bypass Rutger's lawlavo. The odds of just one happening of slim. The odds of both....

weapon choices to skirt having a WTD.

WTD doesn't even bug him that much. He gets hit below the fifites even versus Wyverns.

[grandjackal]

10/1 Shin, B Fir [A at times but it doesn't really help that much] vs other guys in Low:

32 HP, 15 str, 19 spd, 9 def, 55 avo

20/4 Ward loses everything, including durability since I bet he's going to get doubled by most enemies. He wins strength by like 7 points, not even close to compensate for not doubling. Yes, slayers helps. Other units want them too. Locked to

Base Rutger, Steel Sword: 17 atk, 15 AS

The cavs: Way less

One chapter of utility doesn't make up for how badly Rutger>>>>>Him.

Yeah, and guess who his preferred A is? If Rutger's supports are slow, Dieck's are even slower. Rutger's actually in a BETTER situation than Dieck since he gets Clarine faster, so if his supports are slow, I can't even begin to imagine how painfully so Dieck's must be.

A: Better durability? How? Rutger's avo is actually reliable, so don't be giving me anything about concrete leads unless it's significant.

B: Crit functions as better durability. On the player phase, there's a 90% something chance that enemy won't be able to live to counter Rutger. And if they get lucky and miss the crit, THEN they have to bypass Rutger's lawlavo. The odds of just one happening of slim. The odds of both....

WTD doesn't even bug him that much. He gets hit below the fifites even versus Wyverns.

Ok, maybe I exagerated Rutger's problems, and MAYBE I forgot about steel swords. Rutger's going above Deick.

But no way in hell am I putting Shin above Ward. Thin about earlygame is most of your units actually aren't one rounding most of the time. Ward's still smoking quite a lot of enemies and he can pull mid 40s against lancemen so it's not like he's getting hit all the time. He's got plenty of HP to go with it, so he's not getting cut down easily either. He can give a good thwack to most enemies to make easier the jobs of the cavs and Roy. The fact he can smoke cavs and armors in one shot before anyone else can, especially at the start when they're annoying as hell, I'd hardly say he's doing bad. Shin however...arrives with too little too late.

Right though, we COULD use the pegasi for a bit, then bench them. Couple problems with that...1. Yeah, Thany actually IS that bad. She gets destroyed...forever and is pitiful in damage forever. Using her is really just asking to put yourself at a disadvantage. That leaves Tate, who arrives 2 chapters ahead of Shin, arriving a bit late into her joining chapter and 2 chapters away from Ilia. One of those chapters is LITTERED with walled off bowmen. Shin is getting lots more experience than her. This basically means A. We have to use a bad unit in dangerous earlygame to use him, or B. We have to have him waste a unit slot only to do little as to not outgain Tate, which is just bad bad bad.

I'll say it again, only way you're convincing me is if you can argue Thany above him. If you can, I'll GLADLY raise them both.

EDIT: Also, nice try with the Fir/Shin thing, the support is slow I believe, also like how you equated him to a supportless Ward, of whom Lot has no one better who doesn't have better option.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Dat Nick]

Ward's still smoking quite a lot of enemies and he can pull mid 40s against lancemen so it's not like he's getting hit all the time.

That's hardly win earlygame. That's an acceptable earlygame.

Ward's utility stems from him existing earlygame and he can't be swapped out: You HAVE to bring him, and he doesn't totally fail like Thany. By the time you can switch him out, his lol3spd is going to cause him a LOT of durability problems. Especially since there's mages in this next chapter.

The fact he can smoke cavs and armors in one shot before anyone else can

and gonzo comes like, 3 chapters later

Yeah, Thany actually IS that bad.

no shit she is

But earlygame, you don't have a choice.

Also, nice try with the Fir/Shin thing, the support is slow I believe

so?

It's still there, and Fir's got nothing better to do. Even if Noah's in play, he's still getting it.

of whom Lot has no one better who doesn't have better option.

who's to say lot's in play?

also...10/1 Shin also beats Klein, by quite a significant margin. move/melee at least breaking nearly a tie in stats

Edited March 17, 2009 by Vyland

[grandjackal]

That's hardly win earlygame. That's an acceptable earlygame.

I don't see the cavs or Deick erasing cavs off the map in a single shot.

and gonzo comes like, 3 chapters later

Hey that's great, but Ward is helping out being acceptable at first, pounding armors and cavs for a bit, THEN he starts sucking. He loses badly to Gonzo, but this isn't about him, it's about Shin being almost an Est.

no shit she is

But earlygame, you don't have a choice.

What? It's way too damn easy to just get through without her. In fact, it's probably easier as she's not getting in the way by doing crap damage with a slim or just being pathetic with a javelin. Also means I don't have to worry about her accidentally getting killed either, as it's pretty easier for her to die.

so?

It's still there, and Fir's got nothing better to do. Even if Noah's in play, he's still getting it.

Same with Wade and Lot.

who's to say lot's in play?

Who the fuck says Noah's in play? Lot and Ward's support is quick, great (delicious firexanima), and they're the same freaking class. Fir on the other hand has to catch up to Noah, and it takes longer. Also, it doesn't benefit her as much thanks to her weak strength growth and being stuck with swords. Swordmasters need crit for offense, otherwise she's still doing bleh. Hell, Ward's also got Thany, another unit who probably won't see past earlygame that would love a support too to fix her shit offense. Fir's only option is Noah.

also...10/1 Shin also beats Klein, by quite a significant margin.in move/melee, at least

Klein also doesn't send our ass to Sacae and is also pretty much built to be good enough throughout. Did I mention he also supports Percival (if you're gonna say NoahxFir's gonna happen...) and Tate (who could use the boost. Ice, ice, baby)? Shin supports Dayan (BLECH!), Fir (as likely to happen as KleinxPercival, and is slower to boot), and a bunch of other people we don't give a shit about. Klein's support list is AWESOME. If Tate's being used, chances are she'd love having Klein to support her. If Tate's being used, then Shin can get some action in. If Shin's moving up in any form, either it's because Thany is somehow salvageable, or Klein and Tate demand oral from him.

[Dat Nick]

I don't see the cavs or Deick erasing cavs off the map in a single shot.

By the time Ward actually gets this ability, Gonzales has almost joined.

Also, you don't? Armorslayer?

What? It's way too damn easy to just get through without her.

that's not the point

the point is she has to be fielded

Same with Wade and Lot.

except Fir>>>>>>>Lot

So Shin's significantly less pressed to get that support, since he doesn't even care if Fir's only other option is in play.

Lot's in lower mid, him being played is doubtful. So Ward getting a Lot support is doubtful. Fir's in play more frequently.

Who the fuck says Noah's in play?

Exactly, who?

Even if he is, it's not hurting Shin's B.

Fir's only option is Noah.

...and Shin

And we're talking about Shin, so of course he's going to get that support.

Klein also doesn't send our ass to Sacae and is also pretty much built to be good enough throughout.

good enough, right.

He's hardly scoring any utility points. Even some of the cruder one rangers are creaming him, and this is like, for 5 chapters of mehness until we get Sacae?

and Tate (who could use the boost. Ice, ice, baby)?

*HOLD IT!*

Witness! There is a clear contradiction in your testimony!

I thought Tate sucked, meaning we aren't using her, meaning Shin can't get any levels before it's off to Sacae we go?

If you're assuming Tate's Klein support is even a factor, your entire argument falls apart since that means Shin's under way less stress to level if Tate's being used often enough to give Klein a support with her. Percy, sure, but move gap and the bonuses kinda suck, so it really doesn't help him all that much.

Same with Wade and Lot.

yeah

Except, y'know, Fir is actually, well, GOOD.

Klein's support list is AWESOME.

...it is?

Percy: Shit bonuses, meh speed, move gap

Tate: Crummy character, move gap, nice bonuses though

Dieck: Doesn't want him, already has Rutger/Clarine

Elphin: ...We shouldn't be going his way, also he really shouldn't be near Klein. Klein's not exactly a good guardian.

Clarine: Doesn't want him, already supporting Rutger/Dieck

Also, it doesn't benefit her as much thanks to her weak strength growth and being stuck with swords.

i never said it did any magical benefits to her. I said Fir had nothing better to do.

It still benefits her. Just like Percy/Klein's support does almost nothing to benefit either, but why not activate it, anyway? It doesn't do any HURT.

Hell, Ward's also got Thany, another unit who probably won't see past earlygame that would love a support too to fix her shit offense.

...if she won't see past earlygame, then why bother? That's wasting a support slot, basically.

If Tate's being used, chances are she'd love having Klein to support her.

If Tate's being used, Shin rises to high tier.

as it's pretty easier for her to die.

doesn't this hurt our chances of Ilia?

[Mekkah]

What's wrong with the bonuses between Percival and Klein? Full avo/hit is awesome for Percival. Avo is what makes supports so broken (lol 2 RN plus every weapon's hit sucks), and hit considerably helps Percival's hit with stronger, less accurate weapons.

[Dat Nick]

Full avo/hit is awesome for Percival.

it is?

Since when does Percy have hit issues, ever?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Base Percival's hit rates are 33 (41 in HM) + Hit of the weapon he's using.

His accuracy can range from 78-86 (Hammer) to 128-136 (Slim Sword) (not counting in supports or enemy avoid). He will need some hit boosts for things like HM Sacae (55 hit with Silver Lance on a nomad for example).

[Dat Nick]

He will need some hit boosts for things like HM Sacae

But we're not going to Sacae, so....

[grandjackal]

You're hilariously fun to debate with, so much shenanigans.

By the time Ward actually gets this ability, Gonzales has almost joined.

Supports with Lot and Thany (both not likely to be used outside earlygame, and if you're bitching about being forced to use THANY of all people just because she's there...), can use hammers and halberd...You say needing class effective weapons is bad, but what about before anyone else can use them or when people can't just outright kill things without them anyways?

Also, you don't? Armorslayer?

Yes, the whole one among the many sword wielders who of which only Deick can wield it well. Ward on the other hand only has to share it with Lot. Deick also has to eat a counter while Ward can one shot most of the time, definitely if he's supporting Lot and/or Thany.

that's not the point

the point is she has to be fielded

We aren't using her throughout the game right? She's technically stealing exp then, and she's not being beneficial in any form anyways. She can fly around, buy stuff and collect from villages, and transport shit around, that's it. Reason Marcus in FE7 can't be bashed for stealing exp is because he's actually good enough to be used throughout.

Lot's in lower mid, him being played is doubtful. So Ward getting a Lot support is doubtful. Fir's in play more frequently.

How? Lot's in lower mid simply because he's quite a bit better than Ward earlygame and has a bit more mileage, but I'd hardly call him good enough to get through all the game normally with your team.

Exactly, who?

Even if he is, it's not hurting Shin's B.

Right, it's barely helping Fir and making her drag dead weight and wasting a unit slot just to field Shin for their slow-ass support while he does nothing until Ilia.

...and Shin

And we're talking about Shin, so of course he's going to get that support.

Ward has supports that no one else wants and they have no one better to support. Shin has a slow-ass support he barely helps and has to be dragged around like a piece of meat for, wasting a slot for a unit who will actually be doing something before Ilia.

good enough, right.

He's hardly scoring any utility points. Even some of the cruder one rangers are creaming him, and this is like, for 5 chapters of mehness until we get Sacae?

Using Shin early = making a LOT of units be meh because Sacae's a bunch of hard-asses, or we go to Ilia where he's not doing anything Klein isn't doing aside from ohhh I don't know, Klein being able to use Silver Bows to have offense on things not pegasus while having decent enough stats...

*HOLD IT!*

Witness! There is a clear contradiction in your testimony!

I thought Tate sucked, meaning we aren't using her, meaning Shin can't get any levels before it's off to Sacae we go?

If you're assuming Tate's Klein support is even a factor, your entire argument falls apart since that means Shin's under way less stress to level if Tate's being used often enough to give Klein a support with her. Percy, sure, but move gap and the bonuses kinda suck, so it really doesn't help him all that much.

yeah

It's as likely as FirxShin support, more effective and, get this, FASTER! It's the point though, Tate IS bleh, but if she's to be raised, she's being raised because she allows Shin to be used early. We really wanna field the bleh-ness that is Tate just so Shin can have fun earlier?

Except, y'know, Fir is actually, well, GOOD.

Can't argue against that, but it isn't because she's lugging Shin around like a hunk of man-meat. The lazy bum...

...it is?

Percy: Shit bonuses, meh speed, move gap

Tate: Crummy character, move gap, nice bonuses though

Dieck: Doesn't want him, already has Rutger/Clarine

Elphin: ...We shouldn't be going his way, also he really shouldn't be near Klein. Klein's not exactly a good guardian.

Clarine: Doesn't want him, already supporting Rutger/Dieck

i never said it did any magical benefits to her. I said Fir had nothing better to do.

Percy is fast and has the same troubles Fir and Shin have. More effective too, Percival doesn't have the best aim and would actually like to hit shit with his silver weapons.

I wouldn't bash Tate if I were you, she's the only reason Shin has even a hope of being used early (again, fielding bleh just to allow him to be used is not a good thing). Shin is Tate's BITCH!

Elphin...yeah, that's true

Clarine and Deick would LOVE him as he's faster a support than Rutger. All they miss out on is Lots of Crit rather than a bit. Only reason they'd prefer Rutger is because Rutger is fucking awesome.

It still benefits her. Just like Percy/Klein's support does almost nothing to benefit either, but why not activate it, anyway? It doesn't do any HURT.

Percival LOVES having more avoid, and would like to actually hit things with better than just iron. Throw in Cecilia, and they're golden. You underestimate how effective and fast Klein's supports are.

...if she won't see past earlygame, then why bother? That's wasting a support slot, basically.

Neither will Ward, what the hell are we missing out on? You're basically saying they've nothing better to do, they should just do nothing. If Thany's gonna be put to any use, it might as well be supporting someone. Ward and Lot have nothing better to do, and Thany likes a good gang-bang from big meaty men (though I definitely question her taste...ugh)

If Tate's being used, Shin rises to high tier.

Fielding a bleh unit just to be used is NOT a good thing.

doesn't this hurt our chances of Ilia?

That, or we could not use fail like Thany while at the same time not using bleh like Tate or Shin for sending our ass to Sacae...

Edited March 17, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Florete]

I'm not buying this "Tate sucks" stuff. For the record, I see her above Shin on both lists.

Perhaps PEMN, but I do recall Percival having not-so-reliable hit.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

But we're not going to Sacae, so....

I know, that's just to show how bad it can be.

Here's a few more examples (17 SKL and 17 LCK btw):

Vs Heroes and Mercs in Chapter 22 with Silver lance: 65 - 72%

He's no Gonzales but he will have some small issues that's for sure.

[grandjackal]

I'm not buying this "Tate sucks" stuff. For the record, I see her above Shin on both lists.

Perhaps PEMN, but I do recall Percival having not-so-reliable hit.

Well let's hear your reasoning. If you can prove her better than Shin, they BOTH can rise (she allows him to be used, and she's better than him anyways so it's justified is the reasoning).

Nah, Percival has bleh hit. He pretty much starts with it, thanks to bleh starting skill.

As for Ilia, there's more to Ilia than pegasi, there ARE heroes and such. One chapter is just filled with weighed down pegasi for easy pickings, but it's just one chapter. The next chapter is easy only because it is almost set that way, like you can easily see how to tackle it. He still has meh hit during and after, just not during pegasi in one chapter.

[Dat Nick]

How? Lot's in lower mid simply because he's quite a bit better than Ward earlygame and has a bit more mileage, but I'd hardly call him good enough to get through all the game normally with your team.

precisely

And that's why he's not getting Lot, past Earlygame

Right, it's barely helping Fir and making her drag dead weight and wasting a unit slot just to field Shin for their slow-ass support while he does nothing until Ilia.

I mean, he gets it started DURING Ilia.

, or we go to Ilia where he's not doing anything Klein isn't doing aside from ohhh I don't know,

And as soon as Shin hits level 10....

More effective too, Percival doesn't have the best aim and would actually like to hit shit with his silver weapons.

it isn't THAT bad. It's even better than displayed, since 2 RNs.

No, he's no Rutger, but you are overstating how badly his hit sucks just a tad.

I wouldn't bash Tate if I were you, she's the only reason Shin has even a hope of being used early (again, fielding bleh just to allow him to be used is not a good thing). Shin is Tate's BITCH!

You bought up Tate, Not me. If we're even going to take KleinxTate as ANYTHING regarding Klein's usefulness and not Tate's, then it has to apply for Shin, since if Klein's even getting that support, Tate must not suck that badly not to be played too often. Either Klein and Shin both get penalized for Tate's phail in any debate unrelated to Tate, or neither of them do. It can't hurt Shin and benefit Klein.

Clarine and Deick would LOVE him as he's faster a support than Rutger.

Considering all the extra time Rutger gets with Clarine, I'd argue he's going to be at B or C by the time Klein shows up.

Can't argue against that, but it isn't because she's lugging Shin around like a hunk of man-meat. The lazy bum...

Fir's not lugging him around on a leash until we actually get to Ilia.

Throw in Cecilia, and they're golden.

....

lolCecilia? Is the wench even good for anything apart from an extra staffer?

Neither will Ward, what the hell are we missing out on? You're basically saying they've nothing better to do, they should just do nothing.

fine, Ward gets his earlygame supports, then they go away and he can't hit for balls and gets doubled all the time and makes the player epic facepalm, starting at...C9 sound about accurate to you?

If you can prove her better than Shin, they BOTH can rise (she allows him to be used, and she's better than him anyways so it's justified is the reasoning).

I can move her up or at least make at least one other person look worse than her, how about that?

14/0 Tate: 31 HP, 11 str, 14 skl, 18 spd, 8 lck, 9 def, 9 res

Base Ray: 23 HP, 12 mag, 9 skl, 9 spd, 6 lck, 5 def, 10 res

Let's see. Tate is stomping him in offense [Yes, Iron Lance weighs her down but she's still pwnzing Ray in AS], move, durability, and rescuing. Since this discussion actually DOES involve Tate, a Klein support is probable. What does Ray have?

Lugh: Full from Ellen and Chad.

Sophia: lolSophia

Niime: If we're using Niime at all, she'll be in the back staffing. Ray...won't.

Hugh: Kinda sucks.

Chad: Also full from Lugh and Ellen.

Let's not forget, early promotion is also an option. Tate seriously needs Con. You know, speaking of con, Tate cares about con far more than anybody else does, so I don't see anybody whining too badly if she takes the body ring, or at least getting her one from the C21 secret shop. We're going unranked, so we might as well fix her little issue since 8k is basically nothing, especially now that we're not hoarding our gems and stat boosters.

But swords are also nice too, also she has way less people competing with her for a whip, while Ray is bickering with his fellow magic users amongst who gets to promote.

Ray can very well wait until C16 to promote: He's got Ellen, Lugh, and Clarine waiting ahead of him. Tate will have been promoted for quite some time.

20/3 Tate: 42 HP, 17 str, 20 skl, 23 spd, 12 lck, 12 def, 13 res

20/1 Ray: 30 HP, 20 mag, 15 skl, 14 spd, 7 lck, 8 def, 15 res

.....Ouch. And this is me being nice and not giving her Klein.

Tate doesn't even have much of a level lead, so this carries on into Endgame, too.

tldr

Tate and Shin>>>>>>Ray

[grandjackal]

precisely

And that's why he's not getting Lot, past Earlygame

Ok smarty pants, tell me supports that DO want Lot. Lot literally has nothing better to do.

I mean, he gets it started DURING Ilia.

Oh right, THAT'S doing his slow-ass support any favors.

And as soon as Shin hits level 10....

...Are you high? Klein's gained a bit of exp and isn't doing that badly anyways. All that does is FURTHER gimp Shin down the line.

it isn't THAT bad. It's even better than displayed, since 2 RNs.

I like how you act like if it's above 50 in a 2 RN system that it magically makes it 100 hit. His hit is bad, especially compared to just about everyone else on your team at the time. He needs supports to help that hit of his, his skill and luck growths aren't doing him any favors. I dunno about you, but as much as the 2 RN system does you favors in this game, I'd STILL like to minimize the chances of missing.

You bought up Tate, Not me. If we're even going to take KleinxTate as ANYTHING regarding Klein's usefulness and not Tate's, then it has to apply for Shin, since if Klein's even getting that support, Tate must not suck that badly not to be played too often. Either Klein and Shin both get penalized for Tate's phail in any debate unrelated to Tate, or neither of them do. It can't hurt Shin and benefit Klein.

That's the point. Shin getting higher is all dependent on Tate. Thing about Klein though is that he doesn't necessarily need Tate. He's got Percival and Cecilia, both of which are fast. I'll explain Cecilia further down the road here. But I will say if someone can manage to make her rise, I WILL raise them BOTH up (Her and Shin).

Considering all the extra time Rutger gets with Clarine, I'd argue he's going to be at B or C by the time Klein shows up.

True, but what of Deick? Deick is slow to support both Clarine AND Rutger, Klein's support is surprisingly quick. All he misses out on is a small bit of crit with supporting the sniper.

Fir's not lugging him around on a leash until we actually get to Ilia.

Ok fine, he's waiting till LATER to be lugged around by a leash in Ilia, whatever floats Shin's clownboat. This also means that Fir is taking longer to build said support. So much for helping Fir.

....

lolCecilia? Is the wench even good for anything apart from an extra staffer?

Oh, the underestimation of the mage general...Quick supports with PERCIVAL and Klein. Percival gets the delicious avoid he always likes (though his hit isn't helped much...) along with good ol' defense, avoid and hit from Klein. Yes, she gets full avoid and decent padding from her QUICK supports. Aircalubur right off the bat for pesky wyvern combat too. Mobility and staves don't hurt either. Her offense is meh, but her defense is better than most make it out to be. Overall, she's actually pretty decent. Only Etrurian General that really does suck is Douglas.

fine, Ward gets his earlygame supports, then they go away and he can't hit for balls and gets doubled all the time and makes the player epic facepalm, starting at...C9 sound about accurate to you?

Yup. about 8 chapters of use before going wasteside. Doing pretty decently throughout too, along with helping Lot be better too. Shin...is doing nothing special in Ilia OR Bern while doing generally nothing in the Western Isles or Etruria without the teamwork of Tate (who is bleh until proven otherwise, but be hopeful as she's looking to move up actually).

I can move her up or at least make at least one other person look worse than her, how about that?

14/0 Tate: 31 HP, 11 str, 14 skl, 18 spd, 8 lck, 9 def, 9 res

Base Ray: 23 HP, 12 mag, 9 skl, 9 spd, 6 lck, 5 def, 10 res

Let's see. Tate is stomping him in offense [Yes, Iron Lance weighs her down but she's still pwnzing Ray in AS], move, durability, and rescuing. Since this discussion actually DOES involve Tate, a Klein support is probable. What does Ray have?

Lugh: Full from Ellen and Chad.

Sophia: lolSophia

Niime: If we're using Niime at all, she'll be in the back staffing. Ray...won't.

Hugh: Kinda sucks.

Chad: Also full from Lugh and Ellen.

Let's not forget, early promotion is also an option. Tate seriously needs Con. You know, speaking of con, Tate cares about con far more than anybody else does, so I don't see anybody whining too badly if she takes the body ring, or at least getting her one from the C21 secret shop. We're going unranked, so we might as well fix her little issue since 8k is basically nothing, especially now that we're not hoarding our gems and stat boosters.

But swords are also nice too, also she has way less people competing with her for a whip, while Ray is bickering with his fellow magic users amongst who gets to promote.

Ray can very well wait until C16 to promote: He's got Ellen, Lugh, and Clarine waiting ahead of him. Tate will have been promoted for quite some time.

20/3 Tate: 42 HP, 17 str, 20 skl, 23 spd, 12 lck, 12 def, 13 res

20/1 Ray: 30 HP, 20 mag, 15 skl, 14 spd, 7 lck, 8 def, 15 res

.....Ouch. And this is me being nice and not giving her Klein.

Tate doesn't even have much of a level lead, so this carries on into Endgame, too.

tldr

Tate and Shin>>>>>>Ray

Lol, Chad. Chad's a fucking clown. Why give him any experience when he just ends up a terribad fighter? Having him support Ellen AND Lou is an all out waste. A. He's TERRIBLE as a fighter for...well, forever (seriously, most of the enemies in his joining chapter can one round him), B. He's got thieving duties to attend to overall, meaning he's probably never anywhere near Lou or Ellen, and C. Both of these means he's not gonna be fielded on most maps if given the chance. All Ellen gets out of it is crit (YIPEE!) and Lou gets Crit and avoid. Nice for him, if Chad were actually ever around. Ray is a MUCH better B support for Lou. It's decently fast as it is, gives Lou the avoid he cares about AND Ray gets hit out of the deal. Sophia is indeed Lol, Niime won't be around either, and Hue's support is not only slow, but WindxIce is blow. If Chad's supporting people, why would he want Ellen anyways? He'd actually prefer Ray, as it gives him the ultimately important to thief stats of avoid and defense. Chad gets absolutely nothing out of Ellen and vice versa.

I mentioned above why Klein ISN'T supporting Tate, I only gave Klein as a best HOPE, not REALITY. Reality is, Tate's not getting any good supports. Her starting stats are good indeed, but the next chapter is littered with bowmen. Awwww...next chapter has FOW and lots of axers, awww...Chapter after that has Ballistae, awwwww...She might start out strong, but her weaknesses show up to buttrape her in the coming chapters. Ray on the other hand, doesn't have to deal with that bullshit, and even comes with Nosferatu. Meaning he's gonna be self-sufficient to an extent until he gets flux where it's an option. Wait until later when he's built up his speed, suddenly he's pretty crazy. He doesn't mind promoting later either, he's still got plenty of levels to build. Oh, but when he promotes...Staffs baby! Might not start with a good rank, but heal's better than nothing. Unlike FE7, Nosferatu doesn't weigh down heavily like a bitch.

Speaking of body rings, wanna know who else REALLY wants it Ray! Why? Well it's mainly for later when he gets APOCALYPSE!!! It's so he doesn't lose as much attack speed with it and he can just annihilate anything with his pretty decent magic and Apocalypse's POWAH! All the body ring does for Tate is make her go from meh to ok for a bit. Ray however, annihilates. Even without apocalypse, he's still pretty damned awesome without it.

Your aims are too high. Aim for Cecilia's current position, don't try for Ray's.

[Dat Nick]

Ok smarty pants, tell me supports that DO want Lot. Lot literally has nothing better to do.

PAST earlygame.

...Are you high? Klein's gained a bit of exp and isn't doing that badly anyways

5 Klein:

35 HP, 17 str, 18 skl, 15 spd, 15 lck 11 def, 8 res

10/1 Shin:

32 HP, 15 str, 16 skl, 19 spd, 13 lck, 12 def, 6 res

Any leads Klein has are amazingly minor, and are more than cancelled out by melee and move.

I like how you act like if it's above 50 in a 2 RN system that it magically makes it 100 hit.

I said nothing of the sort.

I said you were exaggerating his hit issues. "He has bleh skill" is rather exaggerating: 16 isn't that shoddy.

just pointing out, also, secret books are in relatively low demand. Nobody but Gonzo really wants one, and after Gonzo promotes not even he wants one anymore since he's pwning everything fine with iron axe due to lolstr. It's not like Percy relies on Klein to fix his hit woes, or his hit woes are even that big in the first place: A secret book and he's good.

Ok fine, he's waiting till LATER to be lugged around by a leash in Ilia, whatever floats Shin's clownboat. This also means that Fir is taking longer to build said support. So much for helping Fir.

It'll at least get to a C, which is better than nothing, probably going to hit B near endgame by most.

Yes, rather minor. But it's still there.

Oh, the underestimation of the mage general...Quick supports with PERCIVAL and Klein.

Supports don't make a unit.

Cecilia has horrendous AS, this being her primary problem. Even at fucking max level she only has 15, meaning she needs a ton of speedwings.

Furthermore, Percy and Klein only give her half atk, so she's not going to be dishing out a whole lot of damage, either.

Yes yes, I know we can just buy power rings/speedwings, but...that many is just ridiclious. And it's only going to help her C21 onwards. Maybe she can be salvaged from total suck, but she sure as fuck isn't good. She's just too damn slow.

Why give him any experience when he just ends up a terribad fighter?

so he doesn't get pwnt by bolting mages

or attacks, in general

Don't level him, and it just gets annoying having him wait on the sidelines for the bolting mages to run out of uses and all enemies in an area dead before he can even approach chests. I'd say you actually waste more turns this way than by giving him a few kills.

. All Ellen gets out of it is crit (YIPEE!) and Lou gets Crit and avoid

forgot def and avoid, every bit helps, considering it's Ellen

If Chad's supporting people, why would he want Ellen anyways?

He can get Ellen way earlier.

but the next chapter is littered with bowmen

Bowmen are arguably just as much of a problem for Ray, since his spd sucks. I don't have enemy stats on hand, but if he's not getting doubled here, I'll need to see it before I believe it.

Her starting stats are good indeed, but the next chapter is littered with bowmen. Awwww...next chapter has FOW and lots of axers

Of which Tate's still winning durability against, since she has more than 1 def on Ray.

Besides, these fighters suck, if this is the chapter I think it is. C12x, right?

awww...Chapter after that has Ballistae

Oh yeah, and that's totally not a problem for Ray, since he's getting damn near [if not killed] by it since his durability sucks

Ray struggles in these chapters too, since he has such fail bases and such low EXP growth. A detail you conveniently left out. Ray's not dealing with some of the bullshit Tate is. He's dealing with his own personal bullshit of being meh and improving slowly.

none of this explains why Tate's not getting a Klein support, btw. We're arguing Tate's usefulness, Tate's being played. In this scenario, the only way Tate isn't getting a Klein support is if Klein's not being played.

....And no, Klein's not going to support Cecilia, since she's still going to suck.

Wait until later when he's built up his speed

...That ever happens?

Even after promotion, his spd still sucks. 14 at 20/1. Ew.

Speaking of body rings, wanna know who else REALLY wants it Ray! Why? Well it's mainly for later when he gets APOCALYPSE!!!

okay, fine

Ray can wait until the C21 secret shop, since Apocalypse is absolutely fucking worthless before Endgame.

Tate benefits from the 2 con instantly and stays benefitted from it the entire game.

Hm, what's better, that, or getting Ray ready for a weapon he has no desire to use, assuming he could even use it before C21? We don't even GET Apocalypse until C21x, so why the hell would we give Ray the one body ring in C13 when we could just mass buy them in the C21 secret shop, for exactly the same effect? This does shit for Ray and fucks over Tate.

Aim for Cecilia's current position

Oh, don't think I'm not interested in that, either. I seriously don't know how the hell you managed to brainwash yourself into thinking Cecilia's supports fix all of her massive flaws and make her a viable combat unit.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Vyland

[Shadow Mir]

And unfortunately for Ray, unlike Tate and Shin, he DOESN'T get Hard mode bonuses.

[Florete]

Wait a minute, what the hell is Tate doing below Zeiss? She's got like, 6 chapters on him where she's helping out and building supports and then pwns his face when he shows up because she might be promoted and she's doubling things anyway. Her only theoretical supports are Klein and perhaps Thany, but Zeiss isn't getting any that late anyway unless his sister isn't already doing it with Lugh, Ellen, or Treck. And because of his lackluster speed, she's probably beating him out in offense for the rest of the game despite his awesome strength. He wins defense, but she has better avoid anyway. Hell, I'd even say Thany > Zeiss for having early game utility and, despite low strength, she has still has decent avoid and doubles a lot, as well as having possible supports in Tate/Dieck/Lot/Wade.

Back to Tate, I'd put her above Marcus as well. He's got some early game utility, but gets bad fast (c'mon, 9 base Strength? That's the same as Tate's, only she beats him in growth by 15% and is a promotion +12 levels lower), so I'd say her definite win later is > his early game.

[Lord Raven]

Miledy doing it with those? I can see Lugh somewhat, but even still -- she has too much move for Lugh AND Ellen at once. Treck being played is somewhat lol worthy too.

As for Zeiss, show me how Tate is "pwning his face." Zeiss has like 19 base strength on his side, and from here I will need enemy stats. Tate doesn't even have many real supports except MAYBE Alan, who has Lance and Roy anyway. Zeiss at least does have his sister as a viable option.

As for "better avoid"... Zeiss starts out with about 30ish, and Tate at this point probably only has like 40ish at best, accounting the fact that she has to use an Iron Lance or her AS gets pretty widely diminished. She loses a lot of AS for using a Steel, and the fact that Zeiss can comfortably move from Iron to a Javelin is a point in his favor offensively. Zeiss has 6 more HP and 7 more defense than base level Tate too -- a gap that will not lessen much in six chapters. How is that "pwning face"?

Zeiss is growing faster too, or actually growing.

... so it's basically about 7 or 8 strength vs about 4 AS, too. I'm using guesstimated 20/0 values for Tate here, and base level values for Zeiss.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

Hell, I'd even say Thany > Zeiss for having early game utility and, despite low strength, she has still has decent avoid and doubles a lot,

...Yeah, no.

Thany's con is also horrendous, and she's locked to lances , which hurts this speed. Plus her affinity blows, meaning her avoid isn't as good as other characters. Said characters you listed don't want to support her, either because:

A: They suck [Hai Ward!]

B: They have way better options [Why the hell would Dieck take Thany over Rutger/Clarine?]

Sending you to Ilia doesn't even start to compensate for the epic fail known as Thany. Zeiss is better than her just by existing. Hell, Zeiss can promote at 10 and still pwn the pants off her statistically.

...

Zeiss...promoting at 10.

I think this could very well send him up at least a tier.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Vyland

[Lord Raven]

NO

VYLAND YOU ARE LOOKING AT IT ALL WRONG

THANY IS A DETRIMENT ASIDE FROM WHATEVE RYOU CAN GET FROM FLYING UTILITY UNTIL CHAPTER 16 WHERE SHE IS STILL A DETRIMENT BUT SHE CAN BE COMPARED TO ZEISS

ZEISS IS NOT NEARLY AS BAD A DETRIMENT

Oh yeah and doing some shit like NOT RECRUITING SHIN OR SUE can help you get to Ilia. Hell not recruiting Sue saves you time that you could use on the Arena (turns wise) and a use of a lockpick, and Shin can give you some EXP. You don't even need Tate, just don't recruit Tate, Sue, or Shin and you're going to Ilia.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

OMG I KNOW

Thany EPIC PWNAGE, ONLY SURPASSED BY YUNNO

...but anyway

Hell not recruiting Sue saves you time that you could use on the Arena (turns wise) and a use of a lockpick, and Shin can give you some EXP.

....I actually agree with this, Sue, well, for obvious reasons, it always frustrates me wasting so much time opening doors and crap in that chapter

Seeing as how this is unranked, why wouldn't we kill Shin if we have no intention to use him? The survival rank we've discarded?

...But hey, get this. If Sue's dead, you HAVE to go to Ilia, meaning Shin can kill as many as he damn well pleases without being forced to Ilia. And since we don't give a damn about the survival rank and Sue's an epic failure anyway....

shin up plz

a lot

btw, sue recruits Shin. Meaning you have to recruit Sue to get Shin. But it's no big deal considering we can just kill her off in the western isles right before Shin's eyes, so you can't even use the unit slot thing against her.

Not to mention killing Sue isn't exactly hard, because, well, lolSue.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Vyland

[Florete]

Miledy doing it with those? I can see Lugh somewhat, but even still -- she has too much move for Lugh AND Ellen at once. Treck being played is somewhat lol worthy too.

As for Zeiss, show me how Tate is "pwning his face." Zeiss has like 19 base strength on his side, and from here I will need enemy stats. Tate doesn't even have many real supports except MAYBE Alan, who has Lance and Roy anyway. Zeiss at least does have his sister as a viable option.

As for "better avoid"... Zeiss starts out with about 30ish, and Tate at this point probably only has like 40ish at best, accounting the fact that she has to use an Iron Lance or her AS gets pretty widely diminished. She loses a lot of AS for using a Steel, and the fact that Zeiss can comfortably move from Iron to a Javelin is a point in his favor offensively. Zeiss has 6 more HP and 7 more defense than base level Tate too -- a gap that will not lessen much in six chapters. How is that "pwning face"?

Zeiss is growing faster too, or actually growing.

... so it's basically about 7 or 8 strength vs about 4 AS, too. I'm using guesstimated 20/0 values for Tate here, and base level values for Zeiss.

Even if Miledy doesn't do it with them, Zeiss comes so late a support won't be ready until the last few maps of the game. A level 20/1 Tate has 23-24 Speed, which translates to 21-22 AS w/Iron Lance, which (going off estimated since I lack enemy stats) should be enough to double anything except Heroes/SM's and maybe Mercenaries and she has 24 atk versus Zeiss's 27, but 21 AS >>>>>> 11 AS. Even you go Steel Lance, it's still 16 AS vs. 8 AS (Hell, Zeiss is probably getting doubled at this rate), and Javelin is 18 AS vs. 10 AS, but then she can also use Swords now for WTA against any axe user she faces. She pretty much wins offense against anything she doubles and he doesn't, which is a lot.

This just in, I have a save on Ch. 20 and the fastest enemy (A Hero) has 18 Speed, so she doubles nearly everything while Zeiss doubles almost nothing. This is later when her Speed will be a bit higher.

EDIT: I missed 1(!) mercenary that actually has 19 AS, but he's wielding a Lancereaver anyway, so unless Zeiss promotes early he might have problems with this guy who has WTA and is very likely doubling him while Tate pwns him with a Sword.

As for avoid, w/ Klein B (possibly A, but I'll go B for now) she has 59 avoid w/Iron Lance, 67 w/Iron Sword, 49 W/Steel Lance, etc., vs Zeiss's avoid of 31 w/Iron Lance and lower for whatever weighs him down, and since she has 150% avoid growth as opposed to his 90% she's winning avoid forever.

Also, Klein B boosts her to 13 def/12-13 Res along with 41 HP vs. Zeiss's 15 Def/3 Res and 36 HP, so she wins durability in raw defenses as well because 5 HP and 9-10 Res >>>> 2 def. Don't even come to me with accuracy.

Tate >>>> Zeiss

...Yeah, no.

Thany's con is also horrendous, and she's locked to lances , which hurts this speed. Plus her affinity blows, meaning her avoid isn't as good as other characters. Said characters you listed don't want to support her, either because:

A: They suck [Hai Ward!]

B: They have way better options [Why the hell would Dieck take Thany over Rutger/Clarine?]

Sending you to Ilia doesn't even start to compensate for the epic fail known as Thany. Zeiss is better than her just by existing. Hell, Zeiss can promote at 10 and still pwn the pants off her statistically.

...

Zeiss...promoting at 10.

I think this could very well send him up at least a tier.

...Yeah, yes.

Whatever Speed she has will still be better than Zeiss's despite being weighed down since she starts with 12 Speed (8 AS w/Iron Lance) and her 60% growth propels it ever higher, so she might even be able to trade avoid for more power and yet still be able to double. Her affinity may not grant avoid, but she has 180% avoid growth and if she's in play, she will likely support Tate, granting her a bit of avoid, which will still be better than anything Zeiss has. Her real problem is power, but she's almost always doubling, so we need to be fighting an enemy with >10 defense for base level Zeiss to do more in one round than 20/2 Thany w/Iron Lances (admittedly not tough to come by), >14 defense w/Steel Lances. But then Thany also has Swords already for axe users and pwns Zeiss's avoid in its entirety, as well as having existing resistance. He wins in defense only, but is doubled on occasion, so even that isn't much.

She also has early game utility. Village visiting, rescuing, etc. She's beating him before he exists and she ties/beats him when he exists as well, so she > Zeiss.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[grandjackal]

I come back and BOOM, the topic explodes!

To address Vyland's points on Shin.

- Past earlygame? Earlygame, Ward can do a couple special things. Tell me something original that Shin does lategame. Speaking of lategame use...Ward is strong, he can use bows at promotion. Lots of wyverns and fliers in the future...

- You forgot to mention all the stuff he's doing to get those 4 levels, stuff Shin isn't doing. Shin's melee is a joke anyways with iron swords of all things. All that's there is mobility, while Klein's doing alright throughout.

- OR we could just support him with Klein to be even more effective than secret books we could just sell for money/give it to Gonzo who does indeed need them a LOT worse.

- Again, his support isn't helping Fir any. She wants power and crit, Shin gives her avoid. 10 Avoid is pitiful compared to not having crit and offense boosts.

- That's why she's where she is now. She's basically forever average with all considered. Staffs and mobility on that though...

- Ballistae and bolti- Are you seriously suggesting we deploy him on such maps? We could just use keys and do just fine without him, you know I only said he'd prefer Ray as a support only because Ray's affinity can actually benefit Chad, despite him not being used for long right?

- Oh my, the whole 1 defense and 6 avoid, Ellen SO wants to have Chad's kids...Oh, he gets her earlier? Yeah, he's CLEARLY benefiting here, what with the minor boosts that don't help him at all and won't be near anyways...

- Oh yeah, Ray has those troubles with weighed down archers he has generally the same speed of and has NOSFERATU. This isn't post FE6 dark magic, Nosferatu isn't that heavy.

- She WOULD have better durability, if Ray didn't have Nosferatu.

- Yes, he not getting insta-gimped by a ballistae shot is in fact doing much better. He is indeed not doing much better though, but it's more because he's still not durable by himself and his Nosferatu is running out by now. Can't do much without a freaking weapon.

- He gets faster...;;>> Ok, his speed isn't lightning, but having par speed with nosferatu (you buy them in chapter...the Nabata one) is pretty awesome.

- Thank you for proving why Ray doesn't actually need the damn ring! It only helps him with an insane weapon he's annihilating mamkutes with anyways. Tate has competition for it for OTHERS who would love to be better off as their con is garbage in contrast to their weapon choice too! Those include...

OJ

ECHIDNA (axes axes axes)

Roy

Fir

Rutger (yeah he's fast enough, but losing less speed is losing less speed)

3 of them are clearly better than Tate. Ray doesn't need nice items to be decent.

- Go ahead and try to take her down. A lot of others don't seem to mind. I f I hear more, she can go down, so go for it.

Concerning Zeiss and Tate, his problem is he joins in chapters where there are ballistae (Ilia). Great thing is he has a better time with it because we JUST got the aiote shield. Tate can use it too, but she's been bleh for a good while, not helping out much. Zeiss gets better returns, starts better, has an actually viable support in his sister, and easy to deal with enemies to be quite a bit tanky a unit for the dreaded chapter 24. His time is short, but he can spend it to actually shine somewhere, unlike Tate.

...But if it's true that killing off Sue sends you to Ilia no matter what, I'll DEFINITELY raise Shin. However if it ISN'T true, not only do we still go to Sacae, we lose the Miugre. If we don't have to keep her alive, then fuck her.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Grandjackal