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Gatrie has earlygame utility, and his offense is good once he gets the KW.

The KW doesn't really do much to help Gatrie's spd issue. Going from 25-55% growth is nice, but that is still overweighed by his dreadful 5 spd base.

Taking some projections:

20/1 Gatrie: 10 spd

20/1 KW Gatrie: 13 spd

20/10 Gatrie: 12 spd

20/10 KW Gatrie: 18 spd

20/20 Gatrie: 15 spd

20/20 KW Gatrie: 24 spd

The effect only gets to be noticeable once Gatrie has hit lategame, but even then 18 AS is rather mediocre and getting an offensively shaky unit to a level that high is challenging unless you plow him with BEXP.

As for the discussions Ena is only useful if Ike is RNG screwed, which isn't assumed.

Anything that's possible in gameplay can be accounted for in a debate. That includes exploring the hypotheticals of RNG screwed characters.

I didn't see much convincing in Largo v Ranulf, Largo's durability is just bad, and this is worse than Ranulf's mediocre offense IMO.

Ranulf is still overrated on that list. Somehow he's above Haar, who is better in every imaginable way except spd, but then he doubles a fair share of enemies and has fairly low competition for the brave axe/lance.

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Gatrie has earlygame utility, and his offense is good once he gets the KW. His options aren't that limited, Illyana has better choices but Astrid doesn't(we only field Sothe on a few maps), Marcia might have an open slot depending on what Tanith/Kieran do, and he can get Shinon on the off chance we use him. Gatrie isn't locked to 1 range like Lethe and gets WT control as well, plus he can actually fight the whole time, not just the first few turns.

No, no he does NOT get good offense, his base is 5 speed. You have to spoonfeed him bexp AND have him hog the ward in battle to get his speed anywhere NEAR offensive level. Just because he gets it doesn't mean he becomes instant gold. Lethe needs no such babying. Also, she has supports that have no better option THAN her, she's at least getting 2 Bs on a garunteed level. Problem with Gatrie is his balls move, and all his supports severely outrun him, especially Astrid and Marcia, who just have absolutely better shit to do than hang out with him. He also CAN'T fight all the time, due to...well you know, never being on the fucking front lines!

WT Control? Oh my! SWORDS! Hip hoo fucking ray! By the time his fat ass promotes, axes are practically nowhere to be seen. Nevermind that thanks to doubling and Luna being a shitty skill that his offense is absolute balls anyways. Speaking of WT, Lethe has the benefit of just not having to deal with that shit at all.

Did I mention that Lethe is transformed immediately and really doesn't have to deal with her transform issues as harshly? Gatrie always has to deal with his shitty move, unless we wanna waste the time of a perfectly good unit to ferry his ass...Wait, can't Lethe do that? I'll admit it's been a long time since I played FE9, but don't laguz have wtf con or something along those lines?

His earlygame use is a couple of chapters where he is indeed useful, but ya know..Lethe exists and is good for times he isn't, then when he returns, she spanks him statistically.

Speaking of move, Lethe can actually be around her supports to benefit them. Did I mention they were Jill and Muarim? Yeah, they'd LOVE the help, especially since they get it nowhere else aside from late joining Haar, and Lolgo.

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The KW doesn't really do much to help Gatrie's spd issue. Going from 25-55% growth is nice, but that is still overweighed by his dreadful 5 spd base.

Taking some projections:

20/1 Gatrie: 10 spd

20/1 KW Gatrie: 13 spd

20/10 Gatrie: 12 spd

20/10 KW Gatrie: 18 spd

20/20 Gatrie: 15 spd

20/20 KW Gatrie: 24 spd

The effect only gets to be noticeable once Gatrie has hit lategame, but even then 18 AS is rather mediocre and getting an offensively shaky unit to a level that high is challenging unless you plow him with BEXP.

Still, he can at least double Knights/Generals and such. He also has all the other things I mentioned, I think he's better than Lethe at any rate.

Lethe can't carry Gatrie, and while Gatrie's Mov is a bit of a hassle, it doesn't mean he can't fight things. Gatrie also has 4 chapters before Lethe shows up, while Lethe only has 3 (and she's mediocre at best in the ravens chapter), so he wins there. Gatrie is still incredibly durable when he arrives (16 Def or so) and hits as hard as Lethe, so she's not crushing him statistically. Gatrie lessens the gap over time, with weapons like the Brave Lance, and higher EXP gain.

Anything that's possible in gameplay can be accounted for in a debate. That includes exploring the hypotheticals of RNG screwed characters.

Yes, but it's quite unlikely and Ena isn't that helpful anyway, since her damage output is nearly equal to Ashnard's Renewal value.

Ranulf is still overrated on that list. Somehow he's above Haar, who is better in every imaginable way except spd, but then he doubles a fair share of enemies and has fairly low competition for the brave axe/lance.

I agree, it's just where to place him. Right below Lethe perhaps?

Edited by -Cynthia-
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Still, he can at least double Knights/Generals and such. He also has all the other things I mentioned, I think he's better than Lethe at any rate.

Guess what Lethe can double? Without needing an item everyone else wants? Because she's not a bitch like Gatrie?

I agree, it's just where to place him. Right below Lethe perhaps?

QUITE a bit lower, his join time is to be scoffed at. Lethe's destined to rise anyways. She's at LEAST getting to lower mid (Brom, I'm aiming at your head...)

Speaking of those who are REDICULOUSLY high up...Geoffery is in upper mid. Did you people take drugs or something? He's around for like 5 chapters and has no supports. Are you serious? He's great and all, but all he is is a filler.

Edited by Kuja
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Guess what Lethe can double? Without needing an item everyone else wants? Because she's not a bitch like Gatrie?

Lethe does double more, you are correct. However, as Gatrie's Str increases and he gets access to more powerful weapons like the Brave Lance, Gatrie will eventually overtake Lethe in offense. Gatrie is consistently Lethe's superior in durability as well.

Speaking of those who are REDICULOUSLY high up...Geoffery is in upper mid. Did you people take drugs or something? He's around for like 5 chapters and has no supports. Are you serious? He's great and all, but all he is is a filler.

He has high Mov with Canto, Paragon is a huge boon, and he does indeed have supports. Callil is unlikely to be full (we probably aren't using Tormod) and Elincia doesn't have any other options. His limited availability keeps him from going higher, but he's an excellent unit for the chapters he's in. Also, "is a filler" is not an argument commonly accepted by anyone. On a side note, could you try to to have a tone that's a little more mature? I feel like I'm arguing with a 10 year old.

Edited by -Cynthia-
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Lethe does double more, you are correct. However, as Gatrie's Str increases and he gets access to more powerful weapons like the Brave Lance, Gatrie will eventually overtake Lethe in offense. Gatrie is consistently Lethe's superior in durability as well.

What, Taur and Brom suddenly don't want the brave lance? Lemme guess, Gatrie will be wanting the boots next? Good thing no one wants to take Lethe's claws away from her. Heaven HELP them if they try...

Speaking of move, His offense is about as consistant as Lethe's. She's not transformed all the time, he's not at the fucking front lines all the time.

Oh, and as for his "offfense"? Thanks to him well...NEVER doubling, you know what he needs to meet Lethe's MT at base to match her when she doubles? To reach his general cap, then give him a forged Silver Lance with +8 might, and I recall it can only go up to +5 in this game, so NO! He NEVER reaches her offensive output. Calculations

Lethe at base has 12 Str

Add transform bonus of 6+8 for her weapon and that's 14. 14+12 is 26. 26x2=52.

Gatrie at his strength cap.

29+15 from silver = 44....+8 is 52.

Only way he's doubling is if not only do you let him keep the KW for ALL his levels, but you have to get him to obscenely high levels. 5 base and his starting level is BAD. Speaking of which...Don't want to waste levels for more KW speed? Say goodbye to his earlygame use. Can't afford to waste a single level...Not that it helps him anyways.

I'd like to thank Vykan for that little tidbit of speed mathematics with the knight ward.

Speaking of durability, another problem Gatrie has is that he's so slow, he might actually get doubled, and quite often. Did you know Lethe actually starts off durably better than our armor knight? She has more HP, but 5 less defense, in exchanged she's not doubled, even untransformed. Transformed though, she has the same defense, 5 more HP, and 7 more resistance, where Gatrie starts with absolutely none. I'm no stat genius on FE9, but if anything has 16 Magic attack and has at least 9 AS, Gatrie is a goner. I don't care if he counters back, suffering from a severe case of The Death is not helping the team. She has 20% less defense growth, but she has 20% more HP growth, which is 100% and thus 100% free of any chance of screwage. I know there's averages, but being 100% certain to hit it is always an advantage. She's pretty much always gonna have an HP lead. If Gatrie has any real durability lead, it's not happening by a noticeable amount, and until wayyyy later. As we know, the whole game isn't about endgame, and he sucks there anyways thanks to balls movement and speed which results in shitty offense. At this point, Lethe's durably fine anyways.

Speaking of which, 2 Bs from her more or less garunteed B supports give her 2 def. As opposed to Gatri- oh wait, they're too damn far away. With her speed and luck, the minor avoid she gets is actually usable, and thus is actually capable of dodging.

Level 9, she has 62 avoid as opposed to Gatrie's...Ya know what? Like hell he's avoiding a damn thing. That's with her 2 Bs as a note, but still. This is better avoid than he's ever gonna have.

He has high Mov with Canto, Paragon is a huge boon, and he does indeed have supports. Callil is unlikely to be full (we probably aren't using Tormod) and Elincia doesn't have any other options. His limited availability keeps him from going higher, but he's an excellent unit for the chapters he's in. Also, "is a filler" is not an argument commonly accepted by anyone. On a side note, could you try to to have a tone that's a little more mature? I feel like I'm arguing with a 10 year old.

Maybe I would change my tone if I wasn't arguing with someone who's saying a unit is better if we baby the hell out of him and still get mediocre results.

Also, when you join in the last 5 chapters of the game? Yeah. You're a filler. He's being of little help out of the whole game. You seriously telling me he's on par Stefan? Who's been haxing half of the game where Geoff is missing? Who cares about supports and paragon, when you only exist for 1/6th the game? Seriously, he's above Haar. Why? Lemme guess, Wrath+Resolve?

Edited by Kuja
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Lethe does double more, you are correct. However, as Gatrie's Str increases and he gets access to more powerful weapons like the Brave Lance, Gatrie will eventually overtake Lethe in offense.

Lethe reaching targets sooner subverts that lead in most cases. She'd have to 3RKO an enemy Gatrie 1RKOed for him to actually win offensive production. Lethe capping out at 35 atk unbanded is pretty bad, but I'm pretty sure it still manages to 2RKO most targets.

Gatrie is consistently Lethe's superior in durability as well.

Let's say Lethe is 20/16 in lategame and fully supported (Jill and Muarim have no alternatives). She's got 51 hp/19 def/82 avo.

A lv 17 silver lance!wyvern lord 3RKOes her at 23 hit. That's a 1% chance of death against a scenario weighed heavily against her. Take something more realistic like a lv 12 steel axe!warrior which 5HKOes her at 4 hit. I can't be arsed to make more examples but Lethe definitely isn't worried enough about dying for Gatrie's durability lead to matter much.

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Lethe at base has 12 Str

Add transform bonus of 6+8 for her weapon and that's 14. 14+12 is 26. 26x2=52.

Gatrie at his strength cap.

29+15 from silver = 44....+8 is 52.

Uhh... you have to factor in defense.

Against an 8 defense enemy, Gatrie doesn't need the hypothetical forge.

Against a 13 defense enemy, Gatrie can go down to steel.

And so on. Learn how correctly present data to back up your points; it's bad enough that you unnecessarily hype everything about a character when debating him.

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I was pointing out that your calculations were blowing things too far out of proportion.

Ok ok, I'll try to keep it calm...

But still, you see the point I'm trying to get across. He needs his strength pretty damn high up to start having a relevent power advantage. She doesn't exactly stop leveling either.

I would use actual stats...If I knew where they were. Either way you can see she starts off all around better than him, is a better benefit to her supports, is not exactly losing out to him durably (if at all), and is retaining an offense advantage. Her transformation issues are null due to his horrid movement, and the fact she starts the battle transformed, so you could argue she's taking care of the hard part first, and not necessarily needing a demi-band as badly as other laguz anyways. Gatrie can't even face mages, as they'd boil him alive thanks to his crap resistance and speed.

Speaking of which, his luck is something horrid, and so is his skill. He's got a chance to get crit, she does not. He has a pretty good chance of whiffing shots. Thanks to her skill, luck, laguz weaponry and her affinity, missing is the last thing she'll ever do.

Support wise, Muarim and Jill would love the extra bit of avoid and defense (6 avoid and 1 defense. Not sparkling, but it's not like they have better options), which helps her remain durable and gives her avoid, something Gatrie will never have a great amount of. This only signifies to help her durability to the point of a lead. He needs to be 20/20 just to tie her base. Granted, this is without the KW, but that doesn't help the fact his main problem with avoid is a lack of luck.

Another thing Lethe just doesn't have to deal with is having to crawl out of a hole. I don't care what you say, 5 base speed is shit, and 25% growth is just not helping at all. Even to meet her base, he has to...promote.

As for her strength, at base she has the same as his untransformed. Transformed, it's technically 5 points higher, and she only has a 5% less growth. Thing is, she's doubling while Gatrie isn't, and she's around longer for time to grow, especially since she's capable of killing. He needs a 12 MT weapon just to meet her base power, and he's not doubling on top of it. Throw in a severe lack of movement and noticeably bad accuracy, and we have a problem. 77 hit before avoid factored with a javelin says he's not exactly reliable to counter at range. Lethe needs not forging to not suck.

As for lategame durability...Again I'd like to thank Vykan for that bit, but as you can see she's clearly not worried about dying. Gatrie on hte other hand needs to worry about his offense, and reaching the enemy, and avoiding mages...You see the point I'm trying to make here?

Man I talk a lot...I WISH I didn't have to work hypotheticals, but I've no clue where enemy stats are x.x Me be noob.

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Considering she starts off more durable and doesn't need brave weapons to have existing offense, I'm surprised it's being argued.

Except that assuming we used Gatrie in the early chapters, his Def should be higher than Lethe's with equal HP, meaning he's more durable. You're also overrating Gatrie's offensive issues, he still 2RKOS most things even without doubling. There are arguments to make for Lethe> Gatrie, but you aren't using the correct ones.

Edited by -Cynthia-
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Except that assuming we used Gatrie in the early chapters, his Def should be higher than Lethe's with equal HP, meaning he's more durable. You're also overrating Gatrie's offensive issues, he still 2RKOS most things even without doubling. There are arguments to make for Lethe> Gatrie, but you aren't using the correct ones.

You forget he needs 7 levels to meet her 5 HP lead? 3 more defense is nice, but considering that it's only scored him 1 point of speed boosting it to...6...He's getting doubled. On top of that, he's got a severe lack of resistance, and even bad luck to worry about. I fail to see how he managed to get 7 levels with his earlygame chapters, unless we had him solo everything. I believe it's 3 chapters he has earlygame, one where he joins essentially half-way. If you're arguing he needs 2.33 levels for those chapters (epic lulz, massive favoritism.) just to have him rival physical durability (and still lose in resistance, and still have incredibly bad luck) without taking doubling into account, I'm surprised you have the guts to even say this.

As for those seven levels...He gained 1 speed where he could have gained 3 with the KW. Is there any reason I should believe Gatrie has any semblence of offense at this point?

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You forget he needs 7 levels to meet her 5 HP lead? 3 more defense is nice, but considering that it's only scored him 1 point of speed boosting it to...6...He's getting doubled. On top of that, he's got a severe lack of resistance, and even bad luck to worry about. I fail to see how he managed to get 7 levels with his earlygame chapters, unless we had him solo everything. I believe it's 3 chapters he has earlygame, one where he joins essentially half-way. If you're arguing he needs 2.33 levels for those chapters (epic lulz, massive favoritism.) just to have him rival physical durability (and still lose in resistance, and still have incredibly bad luck) without taking doubling into account, I'm surprised you have the guts to even say this.

He has 4 earlygame chapters where you're forced to low man and he's arguably the most durable unit on the team. Gatrie can even double enemies in the first few chapters, since enemies often weigh themselves down. 6-7 levels for Gatrie in these 4 chapters is nowhere near "massive favoritism". Gatrie does lose minorly in Res to Lethe, but she also has a fire weakness and mages make up a small % of enemies.

Gatrie is rarely doubled actually. Most enemies in his opening chapter only have 8-9 Spd, except for the ravens that don't attack the PC's much anyway, and the boss.

As for those seven levels...He gained 1 speed where he could have gained 3 with the KW. Is there any reason I should believe Gatrie has any semblence of offense at this point?

You just completely ignored the point that Gatrie 2HKOS without doubling.

Edited by -Cynthia-
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He has 4 earlygame chapters where you're forced to low man and he's arguably the most durable unit on the team. Gatrie can even double enemies in the first few chapters, since enemies often weigh themselves down. 6-7 levels for Gatrie in these 4 chapters is nowhere near "massive favoritism". Gatrie does lose minorly in Res to Lethe, but she also has a fire weakness and mages make up a small % of enemies.

4 chapters? Pray tell, what is this mysterious 4th chapter? Sounds handsome and cunning.

Lessee, he has the pirate chapter, the chapter we get Soren, and the chapter we get Mia. 3 chapters. Gatrie's level happens to be high, while the enemy is low, so his exp gain for these chapter is a bit low in comparison. These maps also don't have that many enemies. It is indeed massive favortism.

Wait wait, minorly? No, majorly. 7 point lead is anything but minor. Sure she has a fire weakness, but Gatrie has a speed weakness. Again, all you need to kill him even if he gained 2 levels early on is 16 magic attack and 9 AS, which you say down there that enemies have. Also shows that he can't just one shot them, while Lethe can one round thanks to doubling. As for her weakness, it is not so overblown as you make it sound. I believe slayer effect triples damage. The enemy would need 15 Mag just to be able to kill her at base with Bolgannon. (9x3)+15-7 = 35. With Elfire, 10 Mag is needed just to 2RKO her at base. Obviously the game isn't absolutely crawling with fire mages, so her fire weakness is less a problem than Gatrie's all around magic weakness.

Gatrie is rarely doubled actually. Most enemies in his opening chapter only have 8-9 Spd, except for the ravens that don't attack the PC's much anyway, and the boss.

Yes, enemies only prove to get stronger as the game goes on. I do wish I had enemy stats though...

As a note...Uhhh...You just showed that apparently most enemies actually are capable of doubling him in his opening chapter.

You just completely ignored the point that Gatrie 2HKOS without doubling.

Loldiers? Yeah, probably. Highly doubt he's 2 rounding the axemen, the halberdiers, most units coming in the later chapters...

He takes 2 rounds to kill a mage when it only takes 1 round for Lethe, by the way.

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I'd like to remidn you that Lethe has 3 more mov (4 before Gatrie promotes) which is really important in a team filled with 9 mov paladins. Not to mention she ORKO's nearly everything with her base strength of 26 - even the level 14 soldiers with thier 31HP/9 def are ORKO'ed - and they're the strongest of all the soldiers. Archers have less HP, fighters have more HP but less def. These are the basic enemy types that Lethe is ORKO'ing. Even if gatrie gains 2 points of strength and equips the steel lance he 3RKO's the halberdiers that Lethe 2RKO's, 3RKO's the strongest soldiers which Lethe ORKO's, 2-3RKO's the level 13 and 12 soldiers only if their HP and def are at thier lowest and 3RKO's the fighters Lethe ORKO's. The only enemies they RKO the same are the myrmidons. And even then Lethe deals more damage and thus has a slight lead over Gatrie. And guess what? In order for him to have gained 2 points of strength he needed to have gained 3 levels in the 4 chapters he's available in. That's unlikely in itself. So yeah, upon joining, Lethe is the superier.

Defensively, Lethe is still superier upon joining as Lethe with base def has equal def to Gatrie after gaining 2 levels. Her base Hp is equal to that of a 13/0 Gatrie and the res of a level 20/4 gatrie. She also has superier avo due to higher luck and speed - in fact, using averages, Gatrie at level 20/20 only has a 50% chance of reachiong Lethe's base speed. He never reaches luck. Lethe also has beorc guard for extra pwnage. Even when you look at defensive growths, you'll find Lethe is the superier:

Lethe: 130/190/40 -- Hp/Avo/def

Gatrie: 80/75/60 -- Hp/Avo/Def

Is a 20% def growth really superier to a 50% HP growth and a 115% avo growth? The correct answer is: No.

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I'd like to remidn you that Lethe has 3 more mov (4 before Gatrie promotes) which is really important in a team filled with 9 mov paladins. Not to mention she ORKO's nearly everything with her base strength of 26 - even the level 14 soldiers with thier 31HP/9 def are ORKO'ed - and they're the strongest of all the soldiers. Archers have less HP, fighters have more HP but less def. These are the basic enemy types that Lethe is ORKO'ing. Even if gatrie gains 2 points of strength and equips the steel lance he 3RKO's the halberdiers that Lethe 2RKO's, 3RKO's the strongest soldiers which Lethe ORKO's, 2-3RKO's the level 13 and 12 soldiers only if their HP and def are at thier lowest and 3RKO's the fighters Lethe ORKO's. The only enemies they RKO the same are the myrmidons. And even then Lethe deals more damage and thus has a slight lead over Gatrie. And guess what? In order for him to have gained 2 points of strength he needed to have gained 3 levels in the 4 chapters he's available in. That's unlikely in itself. So yeah, upon joining, Lethe is the superier.

Wait, you're refusing to give him 3 levels in 4 chapters? When he's the second best unit on the team? This underestimating of Gatrie's level is becoming rather frustrating.

Examples:

15 enemies(including boss) in Chapter 3. Let's say Gatrie kills 5 of them(I won't even give him the boss kill just to be nice). That's an entire level right there.

22 enemies in Chapter 4. Let's say Gatrie can get about 1/3 of the kills here(Ike has lance issues, Soren has severe durability issues, we probably don't want to even use Shinon and he has no enemy phase regardless). The enemies are higher level too (like a lvl.5 avg instead of 3) so Gatrie gets about 18 Exp per kill. That's another level and then some.

18 enemies in Chapter 5. Slightly more competition for kills from Oscar/Boyd, but neither of them are durable enough yet to hold the line, Gatrie is. Another 6 kills or so for Gatrie, now enemies avg. out at level 7 or so. He gets about 20 exp per kill, so that's another level and then some

34 enemies in Chapter 7 average level about 8. Gatire still gains about 20 Exp per kill, and will probably get a little under 10 kills, so 2 levels here. So that's 5 levels in 4 chapters, not even giving him boss EXP.

Defensively, Lethe is still superier upon joining as Lethe with base def has equal def to Gatrie after gaining 2 levels. Her base Hp is equal to that of a 13/0 Gatrie and the res of a level 20/4 gatrie. She also has superier avo due to higher luck and speed - in fact, using averages, Gatrie at level 20/20 only has a 50% chance of reachiong Lethe's base speed. He never reaches luck. Lethe also has beorc guard for extra pwnage. Even when you look at defensive growths, you'll find Lethe is the superier:

Lethe: 130/190/40 -- Hp/Avo/def

Gatrie: 80/75/60 -- Hp/Avo/Def

You also have to consider Gatrie gains levels quicker due to being a beorc. Your calculations are off because you have a warped perception of the Exp available in the early chapters comparable to thw number of units you're forced to field. Your estimation of when he reaches Lethe'd base Spd doesn't factor in the KW and the Beorcguard only helps against the very few enemies that use weapons effective against laguz, which is about 1 enemy a chapter, not to mention we can just equip it on someone else, and then these become a disadvantage for Lethe.

Edited by -Cynthia-
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Wait, you're refusing to give him 3 levels in 4 chapters? When he's the second best unit on the team? This underestimating of Gatrie's level is becoming rather frustrating.

...What? His level is high, and the enemies' levels are low. And it's 3 and a half chapters.

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Wait, you're refusing to give him 3 levels in 4 chapters? When he's the second best unit on the team? This underestimating of Gatrie's level is becoming rather frustrating.

By this logic, there'll be even less enemies for Gatrie to be fed kills to, due to Titania being so damn good she could practically solo these maps.

You also have to consider Gatrie gains levels quicker due to being a beorc. Your calculations are off because you have a warped perception of the Exp available in the early chapters comparable to thw number of units you're forced to field. Your estimation of when he reaches Lethe'd base Spd doesn't factor in the KW and the Beorcguard only helps against the very few enemies that use weapons effective against laguz, which is about 1 enemy a chapter, not to mention we can just equip it on someone else, and then these become a disadvantage for Lethe.

1. It doesn't stop the fact that A. Lethe is around for more chapters and can thus get more exp while he isn't around, and B. He is the one needing to catch up, and she can keep a steady exp rate going. She's not exactly getting 1 exp for kills here.

2. He needs the KW for practically all of his levels to get relevent speed, because 5 base sucks. Get over it. He needs them or else his 25% growth fucks him over. He can't afford levels without the damn thing, he's hogging it when others damn well want it. Beorc guard she can get by without it due to there being even less things for her to worry about, but with this considered, who else needs it I'm sure Mordy and Muarim are tuff enuff to not really need it. She puts it to best use, despite how apparently few laguz effective weapons there are around.

3. For his earlygame, since you're feeding him a bunch of exp, he's getting screwed out of speed because the KW doesn't exist yet, in which case she's having a major AS lead. This is important not only to offense, but defense as well, considering how bad 5 base is.

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Other points to consider:

Gatrie gets two weapons (though his backup rank is pathetic, but can be useful in some situations). Lethe only has claws which gain no damage or hit bonuses in weapon triangle.

Gatrie has 1-2 with javelins etc. - Lethe is locked to one range (which seemed to be a major argument for people fighting me on Boyd > Ike)

Gatrie can fight ALL the time - Lethe either is stuck using the Demi-band reducing her stats to match his fighting time or she is untransformed half of the time.

Both have to watch out for slayer weapons (I tend to think there are more Laguz slayers out there than armorslayers though). But Lethe is also weak to Fire Magic.

Gatrie has reduced move on several maps due to his weight, making him effectively useless (desert, mountain level, anything with swamps) where Lethe can out move him.

Gatrie can get Luna, a good skill that activates pretty often. Lethe's mastery skill is garbage.

Gatrie can benefit from forged weapons where Lethe cannot.

Gatrie generally levels better.

And, if no other argument gets you, I would have to say: Gatrie the ladies-man archetype character of PoR, which instantly gets him a bonus in my book, heh.

My opinion Gatrie > Lethe.

Then again, I'm not going to deny that I'm pretty anti-laguz. . . unless it's Tibarn.

Edited by Arteris
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Other points to consider:

Gatrie gets two weapons (though his backup rank is pathetic, but can be useful in some situations). Lethe only has claws which gain no damage or hit bonuses in weapon triangle.

Gatrie has 1-2 with javelins etc. - Lethe is locked to one range (which seemed to be a major argument for people fighting me on Boyd > Ike)

Gatrie can fight ALL the time - Lethe either is stuck using the Demi-band reducing her stats to match his fighting time or she is untransformed half of the time.

Both have to watch out for slayer weapons (I tend to think there are more Laguz slayers out there than armorslayers though). But Lethe is also weak to Fire Magic.

Gatrie has reduced move on several maps due to his weight, making him effectively useless (desert, mountain level, anything with swamps) where Lethe can out move him.

Gatrie can get Luna, a good skill that activates pretty often. Lethe's mastery skill is garbage.

Gatrie can benefit from forged weapons where Lethe cannot.

Gatrie generally levels better.

And, if no other argument gets you, I would have to say: Gatrie the ladies-man archetype character of PoR, which instantly gets him a bonus in my book, heh.

My opinion Gatrie > Lethe.

Then again, I'm not going to deny that I'm pretty anti-laguz. . . unless it's Tibarn.

Lethe's usable out of the box.

Lethe doubles whereas Gatrie can't.

Lethe may be threatened by Fire magic, but Gatrie shudders when ANY magic is around.

Luna is overrated. It only adds like 5 to 8 damage tops.

Sure, I like Gatrie for being a ladies' man, but...

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By this logic, there'll be even less enemies for Gatrie to be fed kills to, due to Titania being so damn good she could practically solo these maps.

What are you trying to say? Gatrie needs to be fed kills-- because he's worse than Titania? If so, that applies for every character in the game until you get Stefan, which is absurd.

Also, Gatrie's starting level is not that high, he's level 9 unpromoted. He usually gains 15-20 Exp per kill, see above post.

1. It doesn't stop the fact that A. Lethe is around for more chapters and can thus get more exp while he isn't around, and B. He is the one needing to catch up, and she can keep a steady exp rate going. She's not exactly getting 1 exp for kills here.

Gatrie is actually around for more chapters(Lethe's chapter as an NPC doesn't count), nice try though.

2. He needs the KW for practically all of his levels to get relevent speed, because 5 base sucks. Get over it. He needs them or else his 25% growth fucks him over. He can't afford levels without the damn thing, he's hogging it when others damn well want it. Beorc guard she can get by without it due to there being even less things for her to worry about, but with this considered, who else needs it I'm sure Mordy and Muarim are tuff enuff to not really need it. She puts it to best use, despite how apparently few laguz effective weapons there are around.

I never said Gatrie's speed was very good, but you constantly bring up speed, whereas i said that Gatrie can 2RKO without doubling and can use the Brave Lance later on to double if need be. I agree that Lethe doesn't require the Beorcguard, but it's hardly a positive in her favor.

3. For his earlygame, since you're feeding him a bunch of exp, he's getting screwed out of speed because the KW doesn't exist yet, in which case she's having a major AS lead. This is important not only to offense, but defense as well, considering how bad 5 base is.

You simply ignored the staement that most enemies in Ch13 only have 8-9 AS. You're also going to explain how we have to "feed" him Exp, since he's extremely durable and can ORKO or 2RKO every enemy on all the earlygame maps.

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Gatrie also has like 6 move (when he promotes) whereas Lethe has 9. She effectively outranges Gatrie even if he does have ranged weapons. Nevermind his hit is absolute garbage with them thanks to his shitballs skill and luck.

Also, his second weapon choice does not help, as it's Swords. Axes barely exist by the time he gets them, and they're weak on top of it, which makes his offense even worse. Starting out with E swords is also incredibly stupid, why give him iron at this point?

As for your new points I didn't see till now..

-No, he needs to be fed kills to be better than Lethe. However, apparently your logic states that good units get the most kills, and Titania is around for all the maps he is. She outclasses him so bad, she could practically solo the maps. This means giving him exp is even harder.

-Fine, she's around for when there are more enemies around for more exp. Happy?

-My point with his speed hurts his DEFENSE, considering Lethe starts even more durable and he's taking twice as many shots. It certainly doesn't help his offense either way, and you act like the KW helps his offense, which it sure as hell doesn't. The fact he needs it just to not suck should say something. Lethe, as Kirsche has shown, is capable of ORKOing, thanks to the ability to double.

Oh, all he needs is the Brave Lance, a single fragile weapon that comes late that he doesn't even have sole rights to use with Taur and Brom around? Well gee! Guess all is forgiven! Come on, you're relying on one weapon for your argument? No one competes for Lethe's claws.

-Geez, I thought I hyped characters, here you are saying that apparently he's extremely durable (of which I stated that he needs about 7 levels ust to compare to Lethe at base), and can apparently one round stuff with his 5 speed. Are you even trying at this point? 5 speed is 4 less than 9, he gets doubled.

Edited by Kuja
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