FE9 Tier List

[Zkirsche]

Wait, you're refusing to give him 3 levels in 4 chapters? When he's the second best unit on the team? This underestimating of Gatrie's level is becoming rather frustrating.

Yeah, I did. Why? simple:

1) Chapter 4 is a rush boss so that Soren and Rhys don't die. very little exp here.

2) Gatrie is 4-5 levels ahead of other units.

3) Gatrie has less mov that the otehr units.

4) He only comes half-way through chapter 7.

5) he doesn't kill anything.

Besides, I'm also being incredibly harsh with lethe's levels, keeping her at base and all that. Why? Simple:

1) There's 1000 bexp collected in chapter 10.

2) She kills stuff

3) She has higher mov than a lot of the units on your team. (Oscar, Kieran, Marcia, Jill etcetera haven't promoted yet)

4) There's more bexp collected in chapter's 9, 11 and 12.

5) She's plenty durable.

Besides, he doesn't ORKO even with more levels. Lethe does AT BASE.

Plus, oscar was your second best unit in Chapter 1 and 2, does that make him get 1.5 levels per chapter? No. And He's at a reasonable level.

You also have to consider Gatrie gains levels quicker due to being a beorc. Your calculations are off because you have a warped perception of the Exp available in the early chapters comparable to thw number of units you're forced to field. Your estimation of when he reaches Lethe'd base Spd doesn't factor in the KW and the Beorcguard only helps against the very few enemies that use weapons effective against laguz, which is about 1 enemy a chapter, not to mention we can just equip it on someone else, and then these become a disadvantage for Lethe.

Gatrie gaining levels quicker. How? All I see is:

1) Less mov to reach and attack enemies and for enemies to attack him.

2) Not ORKO'ing like Lethe does to a vast majority of enemies.

Who on? Mordecai. Mr never-dies. Oh.

But, just to humour you, i'll give Gatrie your estimated 1.5 levels per chapter and see who's better. Lethe will be at a more realistic level:

HP/Atk/AS/Avo/Def/Res

Level 15 Gatrie with a steel lance: 36/25/6.5/18.5-20.5/18/2

Level 4 Lethe: 35/26.5/16/47.5/15/10

Offensively, Lethe ORKO's and Gatrie doesn't. She also deals more damage in one hit. Might i add that gaining these 6 levels drops Gatrie's average speed with knight ward usage from this point onwards by 1.8.

Defensively, Gatrie has 1 HP and 3 def against 27-29 avo + 8 res. Lethe can also escape enemies with that high mov of hers, Gatrie can't. Lethe wins.

Later on, we'll give Gatrie 6 levels, 5 of them with knight ward usage. Then we'll give Lethe 3 levels, as she was generally better than Gatrie duraing those chapters anyway:

HP/Atk/AS/Avo/Def/Res

Level 20/1 Gatrie with a steel lance: 43/31/11/29/21/6

Level 7 Lethe, 'B' Jill: 39/28/18/58/18/12

Offensively, Lethe wins for actually doubling enemies.

Defensively, you might argue that Lethe doesn't get Jill, but otehrwise, Jill would have to wait for haar to come along, just to get 8 more avo for the last few chapters. Worth the wait? No. Besides, even Mist has other options (Namely Boyd, but also Titania. Both love water support). So yeah, 'B' Jill isn't unliekly. Lethe loses out on def and HP, yes, but she has superier res (6), movement (3) and avo (29). Is 4 Hp and 3 def > 6 res, 3 mov and 21 avo? No. Lethe STILL wins durably.

Later still, we'll give gatrie 9 levels (6 with knight ward) and Lethe 6:

Level 20/10 Gatrie with silver lance: 50/41/15/40/26/9

Level 13 Lethe with 'A' Jill: 46/31/22/71/20/13.5

Offensively, Lethe STILL doubles.

Defensively, I'd say Gatrie's 4 HP and 6 def is equal to Lethe's 3 mov, 4-5 res and 31 avo.

Lethe > Gatrie.

[-Cynthia-]

Gatrie also has like 6 move (when he promotes) whereas Lethe has 9. She effectively outranges Gatrie even if he does have ranged weapons. Nevermind his hit is absolute garbage with them thanks to his shitballs skill and luck.

Gatrie can counter enemies that attack from 2 range, Lethe cannot.

No, he needs to be fed kills to be better than Lethe. However, apparently your logic states that good units get the most kills, and Titania is around for all the maps he is. She outclasses him so bad, she could practically solo the maps. This means giving him exp is even harder.

She outclasses everyone on the team on every map she's on for quite some time. She also outclasses Lethe, so you have absolutely no point. It's more effiecient to use more members of the team than to solo maps with Titania-- it shortens the amount of time we spend on each chapter.

Fine, she's around for when there are more enemies around for more exp. Happy?

Unfortunately, you're still incorrect. Chapter 10 has 27 enemies, which is approximately equal to the number of enemies in any of Gatrie's maps, and Lethe has more PC's to share skils with. There is a simlar amount of enemies on Chapter 11, only even more new characters to share it with. Chapter 12 has less enemies than any chapter of Gatrie's, so you are wrong once again.

My point with his speed hurts his DEFENSE, considering Lethe starts even more durable and he's taking twice as many shots. It certainly doesn't help his offense either way, and you act like the KW helps his offense, which it sure as hell doesn't. The fact he needs it just to not suck should say something. Lethe, as Kirsche has shown, is capable of ORKOing, thanks to the ability to double.

You still cling to the statement that Gatrie gets doubled, even when the facts show that he doesn't. The KW indeed helps offense eventually, as he can now double certain enemies and thus be Lethe's offensive superior due to higher Atk.

Oh, all he needs is the Brave Lance, a single fragile weapon that comes late that he doesn't even have sole rights to use with Taur and Brom around? Well gee! Guess all is forgiven! Come on, you're relying on one weapon for your argument? No one competes for Lethe's claws.

You also just keep ignoring the statement that Gatrie 2HKOS without doubling, I am certainly not relying on the Brave lance for my entire argument, which you would realize if you actually knew how to read.

Geez, I thought I hyped characters, here you are saying that apparently he's extremely durable (of which I stated that he needs about 7 levels ust to compare to Lethe at base), and can apparently one round stuff with his 5 speed. Are you even trying at this point? 5 speed is 4 less than 9, he gets doubled.

If you had even a basic level of reading comprehension you would have realized I was talking about the earlygame, where enemies are often weighed down and thus can reach levels of AS in the 1-2 range.

For the record, I actually agree that Lethe>Gatrie, I tried to argue up Lethe in the previous tier thread, but your arguments are just terrible.

Edited June 11, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Gatrie can counter enemies that attack from 2 range, Lethe cannot.

Shame gatrie is never in their Atk range then.

Unfortunately, you're still incorrect. Chapter 10 has 27 enemies, which is approximately equal to the number of enemies in any of Gatrie's maps, and Lethe has more PC's to share skils with. There is a simlar amount of enemies on Chapter 11, only even more new characters to share it with. Chapter 12 has less enemies than any chapter of Gatrie's, so you are wrong once again.

Lethe is betetr than a lot of those PC's and actually has access to bexp, though.

You still cling to the statement that Gatrie gets doubled, even when the facts show that he doesn't. The KW indeed helps offense eventually, as he can now double certain enemies and thus be Lethe's offensive superior due to higher Atk.

Lol@Gatrie doubling.

Gatrie gets doubled by the halberdiers (11 AS)(3 enemies), Some of the better archers (Level 12's can have 10 AS. level 15's have 10-11 AS)(1-2 enemies), the ravens (13 AS)(14 enemies).

You also just keep ignoring the statement that Gatrie 2HKOS without doubling, I am certainly not relying on the Brave lance for my entire argument, which you would realize if you actually knew how to read.

Lethe ORKO's. Lethe > Gatrie.

If you had even a basic level of reading comprehension you would have realized I was talking about the earlygame, where enemies are often weighed down and thus can reach levels of AS in the 1-2 range.

Take chapter 4 as an example, Gatrie has 5AS still. Gatrie only doubles 6/22 enemies - around a quater of the enemies.

For the record, I actually agree that Lethe>Gatrie, I tried to argue up Lethe in the previous tier thread, but your arguments are just terrible.

What bad arguments? All I see is better offence due to doubling and mov, equal to better durability due to movement and avo better support options.

Edited June 11, 2009 by kirsche

[grandjackal]

Pretty much what Kirsche said. Is there any point in continuing? To counter the brave lance issue, Lethe can put Adept to good use. Yeah, she's not garunteed it, but Gatrie doesn't have sole use of the Brave Lance either.

Might have had a couple facts wrong, but at least generally I wasn't falling back on favoritism and generally false information.

Could do with enemy stats though to look more in depth on these guys, anyone know where they are? I suppose I should google...

The link on the front page just doesn't work

[-Cynthia-]

Shame gatrie is never in their Atk range then.

Saying Gatrie is never in enemy's attack ranges is a gross overstatement. Countering a 2 range> not countering at 2 range.

Lethe is betetr than a lot of those PC's and actually has access to bexp, though.

Gatrie gains access to BEXP once Chapter 14 comes around, so not much of an advantage.

Lol@Gatrie doubling.

Knights/Generals aren't particularly fast, Gatrie needs 8 Spd for example, to double Level 15 Knights.

Lethe ORKO's. Lethe > Gatrie.

Lethe ORKOs more than Gatrie does, and thus she is better than Gatrie.

Take chapter 4 as an example, Gatrie has 5AS still. Gatrie only doubles 6/22 enemies - around a quater of the enemies.

True, but he ORKOS those and 2RKOs everythign else, it's pretty good, especially since Soren can't ORKO and Ike has issues as well due to almost constant WTD here.

What bad arguments? All I see is better offence due to doubling and mov, equal to better durability due to movement and avo better support options.

"Gatrie needs to be fed kills because Titania is better"/ "Lethe has more maps, wait she doesn't, she has more enemies on them oh wait that's not true either"/ "Gatrie is only gaining 2 levels in 4 maps" If you couldn't find bad arguments you weren't looking hard enough. Also, find this "generally false information" I was using, I would love to see it. There's more competition for that one Adept scroll than for the Brave Lance FYI.

Edited June 11, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Shadow Mir]

And for what it's worth, Lethe has better support options. Admittedly, she isn't getting Ike, but she has a chance at Jill, Muarim and Ranulf, plus she can keep up with them. Gatrie, on the other hand, has Shinon (shows how ineffective a promoted unit can be earlygame and makes Bottom Tiers look good upon rejoining), Ilyana (has better options), Astrid (move difference), and Marcia (see Astrid).

[Zkirsche]

Any complaints on my statistical analysis? If not, we might as well stop this argument as there's no need to continue.

Saying Gatrie is never in enemy's attack ranges is a gross overstatement. Countering a 2 range> not countering at 2 range.

Not quite, ALL the 8-9 mov units attack and many of them will kill. If yoiu're not on the front lines, you'll struggle to find enemy phrase.

Gatrie gains access to BEXP once Chapter 14 comes around, so not much of an advantage.

I was talking about Lethe's chapters before Gatrie joins, i was saying she gets a level.

Knights/Generals aren't particularly fast, Gatrie needs 8 Spd for example, to double Level 15 Knights.

Good thing that they're aren't any knights in Chapters 13-15 then.

Lethe ORKOs more than Gatrie does, and thus she is better than Gatrie.

So we're in agreement?

True, but he ORKOS those and 2RKOs everythign else, it's pretty good, especially since Soren can't ORKO and Ike has issues as well due to almost constant WTD here.

Titania ORKO's, Shinon ORKO's more too.

"Gatrie needs to be fed kills because Titania is better"/ "Lethe has more maps, wait she doesn't, she has more enemies on them oh wait that's not true either"/ "Gatrie is only gaining 2 levels in 4 maps" If you couldn't find bad arguments you weren't looking hard enough. Also, find this "generally false information" I was using, I would love to see it.

I was mostly talking about my arguments. Which i gave good (And un argued against) reasoning for. I then proceeded to show how Lethe is better than gatrie even with 1.5 levels per chapter.

See, 1.5 levels is a bad argument too with an overlevelled unit like gatrie who fails to ORKO often and has less movement.

Edited June 11, 2009 by kirsche

[grandjackal]

With that in mind, what's keeping her below the likes of Brom? He's pretty much the same situation, with various minor differences. I mean, Haar comes a bit late and isn't even that stellar statistically, Calill is pretty average, comes a bit later as well, Illyana has various problems in the forms of speed and durability...

Of course these are general, but if one can agree upon it...I just wanna get things rolling, as I think Lethe could rise quite a bit.

[Zkirsche]

With that in mind, what's keeping her below the likes of Brom? He's pretty much the same situation, with various minor differences. I mean, Haar comes a bit late and isn't even that stellar statistically, Calill is pretty average, comes a bit later as well, Illyana has various problems in the forms of speed and durability...

Of course these are general, but if one can agree upon it...I just wanna get things rolling, as I think Lethe could rise quite a bit.

I second this. Lethe is very underrated in this tier list. transformation problems =/= Mid tier. Mordey and Muarim got that high with it.

I'll do a comparison later, but Lethe is easily upper mid material.

[grandjackal]

I second this. Lethe is very underrated in this tier list. transformation problems =/= Mid tier. Mordey and Muarim got that high with it.

I'll do a comparison later, but Lethe is easily upper mid material.

Personally I find she could rise above Stefan, though going above Mordy might be a bit ballsy.

[Zkirsche]

Personally I find she could rise above Stefan, though going above Mordy might be a bit ballsy.

It's a debate to judge the weight of Lethe's earlygame chapters to Mordecai's lategame chapters.

Speaking of Stefan, is he really worse than Zihark? Sure, fail affinity is fail and Zihark has 4 more chapters of usage than him, But Stefan is arguably better in each of his chapters due to pre-promote stats and ability to use teh vague katti from the word go.

Edited June 11, 2009 by kirsche

[grandjackal]

It's a debate to judge the weight of Lethe's earlygame chapters to Mordecai's lategame chapters.

Speaking of Stefan, is he really worse than Zihark? Sure, fail affinity is fail and Zihark has 4 more chapters of usage than him, But Stefan is arguably better in each of his chapters due to pre-promote stats and ability to use teh vague katti from the word go.

Right.

As for Zihark and Stefan, there are various things that get in the way. Zihark has the best affinity while Stefan has the absolute worst. Zihark's support list>Stefan's. Zihark doesn't have to deal with bad luck. Zihark's avoid can get above decent level (really, that luck fucks him up). Zihark also has innate adept, which is always cool.

On the other hand, Stefan has asskicking offense from the get go, and doesn't really have to worry about being leveled to be usable. It really comes down to Zihark having a wtf awesome payoff while not being too bad early on versus Stefan being perfectly usable on arrival. It's certainly close, they should at least be together.

And Lethe is a link between them!

[-Cynthia-]

It's a debate to judge the weight of Lethe's earlygame chapters to Mordecai's lategame chapters.

Speaking of Stefan, is he really worse than Zihark? Sure, fail affinity is fail and Zihark has 4 more chapters of usage than him, But Stefan is arguably better in each of his chapters due to pre-promote stats and ability to use teh vague katti from the word go.

Mordecai beats Lethe in supports by a lot as well, Water>Heaven with better partners IMO. It's not like Lethe is that much better than Mordy early on, he can double some stuff/OKHO others anyway, and has enough Def untransfromed to build gauge safetly.

I don't think Stefan is better than Zihark. Zihark has a much better support list and best affinity>>worst affinity, plus he's a positive before Stefan arrives. Zihark beats Stefan in durability by a large margin due to Stefan's Lck and Zihark getting Earth affinity bonuses. Stefan wins Atk, though on the Vague Katti point Zihark can use it once he hits promotion which should be shortly after Stefan joins.

The biggest difference between Brom and Gatrie is supports, Brom provides great bonuses and has a good list, while Gatrie doesn't, Brom's base Spd is a little higher I guess, though I think Gatrie's earlygame utility matters more.

Edited June 11, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I'll wait a bit before making changes regarding Lethe.

Stefan > Zihark until good arguments rise.

[-Cynthia-]

Ok.

15/1 Zihark(Forged Steel Sword C Brom)

32 HP 26 Atk 20 AS 11 Def 3 Res 34 Crit 58 Avo

--/8 Stefan (Forged Steel Sword)

38 HP 32 Atk 25 AS 12 Def 9 Res 47 Crit 55 Avo

This is as good as it gets for Stefan. He wins offense and they essentially tie durability.

Later, once Zihark's supports kick in:

Zihark (15/7 A Brom B Muarim Forged Silver)

36 HP 35 Atk 24 AS 17 Def 7 Res 36 Crit 98 Avo

Stefan(--/10 B Mordecai C Soren Forged Silver)

39 HP 40 Atk 26 AS 14 Def 11 Res 48 Crit 59 Avo

You might argue that I was kind to Zihark's leveling in regards to Stefan, but I was pretty kind to Stefan in giving him a Mordecai support.

Stefan still wins Atk, the AS lead is superfluous, but Zihark wins durability by a fair margin. 3 Def and 28 Avo> 3 HP and 4 Res. Don't forget though, Zihark has innate Adept, which makes his offense about equal to Stefan's. If Stefan wants Adept, he's going to have to take it from every other character in the game who wants it, which is quite a few people.

Add to that Zihark is giving out support bonuses people actually want as opposed to giving Mordecai a Heaven affinity he doesn't want, and that Zihark can grab Illyana if Brom or Muarim are full while Stefan is out of luck if Mordecai is full or Soren isn't in play, and the scales shift in Zihark's favor. Zihark has 4.5 chapters before Stefan joins as well, and he's good enough in those to be a positive asset.

Edited June 11, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

I'll avoid trying to argue Lethe above Mordy, as I fear I can't reliably do that, and that it might be out of my league. I feel Geoffery however, is completely and severely overrated, and has no reason to be that high above Haar. Haar has a support list that exists, has a semblence of time to actually build it, has flight, axes>bows, and is around for longer.

All I can say is Lethe is at least severely beating out Nephenee until she promotes.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Ok.

15/1 Zihark(Forged Steel Sword C Brom)

32 HP 26 Atk 20 AS 11 Def 3 Res 34 Crit 58 Avo

--/8 Stefan (Forged Steel Sword)

38 HP 32 Atk 25 AS 12 Def 9 Res 47 Crit 55 Avo

This is as good as it gets for Stefan. He wins offense and they essentially tie durability.

Later, once Zihark's supports kick in:

Zihark (15/7 A Brom B Muarim Forged Silver)

36 HP 35 Atk 24 AS 17 Def 7 Res 36 Crit 98 Avo

Stefan(--/10 B Mordecai C Soren Forged Silver)

39 HP 40 Atk 26 AS 14 Def 11 Res 48 Crit 59 Avo

You might argue that I was kind to Zihark's leveling in regards to Stefan, but I was pretty kind to Stefan in giving him a Mordecai support.

Stefan still wins Atk, the AS lead is superfluous, but Zihark wins durability by a fair margin. 3 Def and 28 Avo> 3 HP and 4 Res. Don't forget though, Zihark has innate Adept, which makes his offense about equal to Stefan's. If Stefan wants Adept, he's going to have to take it from every other character in the game who wants it, which is quite a few people.

Add to that Zihark is giving out support bonuses people actually want as opposed to giving Mordecai a Heaven affinity he doesn't want, and that Zihark can grab Illyana if Brom or Muarim are full while Stefan is out of luck if Mordecai is full or Soren isn't in play, and the scales shift in Zihark's favor. Zihark has 4.5 chapters before Stefan joins as well, and he's good enough in those to be a positive asset.

Still skeptical, this seems to just show that Zihark is completely dependent on favoritism and supports to surpass Stefan and only in some durability. Not to mention that the supports are just "IFs" and Brom is lower mid.

[-Cynthia-]

I'll avoid trying to argue Lethe above Mordy, as I fear I can't reliably do that, and that it might be out of my league. I feel Geoffery however, is completely and severely overrated, and has no reason to be that high above Haar. Haar has a support list that exists, has a semblence of time to actually build it, has flight, axes>bows, and is around for longer.

All I can say is Lethe is at least severely beating out Nephenee until she promotes.

Geoffrey has a lot of things in his favor over Haar. Haar's bow weakness is a big problem, since his first 3 maps have ballistae on them, Geoffrey doesn't have this issue and is more durable overall. Geoffrey also beats Haar pretty handily in offense, since Geoffrey can double nearly everything, after a few levels, perhaps with KW access, Haar will only be doubling Generals and Wyvern Riders.

Haar's support list isn't much better than Geoffrey's. There's a good chance Jill will already have Mist and Lethe, since they arrive sooner than Haar, he can have Makalov though. Geoffrey stands a good chance of getting Callil, since Tormod isn't so great and she only has 3 options, and Elincia has no other choices so he gets her if she's fielde. Plus, I would argue that Fire>Wind.

Plus, Paragon is just huge. Geoffrey's CEXP and BEXP usage is just absurdly efficient compared to Haar or anyone else not named Astrid.

How did my post include favoritism? I didn't give Zihark an absurd amount of levels IMO, and I gave Stefan B Mordecai and I gave him Soren too for crying out loud. Brom is actually at the top of Lower Mid which is pretty good, considering there's no Middle tier. If Brom isn't being fielded, then he could support Illyana instead and you're free to subtract 1 Mt from the last comparison. It certainly is lot more convincing than "Stefan is better at join time", which was the argument you accepted to move him up.

Edited June 12, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

How did my post include favoritism? I didn't give Zihark an absurd amount of levels IMO, and I gave Stefan B Mordecai and I gave him Soren too for crying out loud. Brom is actually at the top of Lower Mid which is pretty good, considering there's no Middle tier. If Brom isn't being fielded, then he could support Illyana instead and you're free to subtract 1 Mt from the last comparison. It certainly is lot more convincing than "Stefan is better at join time", which was the argument you accepted to move him up.

@Bold: Yes, yes it is.

@Italic: No. I didn't move it up because of that argument, I simply looked for elaboration of that statement and found no reason for Zihark to be above Stefan except for the "what ifs" you presented which were already considered when I switched their positions.

While supports are beneficial, they still come with requisites, these being the use of the units supporting and constantly keeping units within 3 spaces of each other (that one probably isn't much of an issue but it's still a requisite and supports AREN'T ALWAYS there).

As you've shown, Zihark only surpasses Stefan once supports are built, A rank being there once he and the units he supports have been fielded together for 9 maps for Muarim/Brom for example. What about the time those supports aren't there? Stefan's quite good without supports.

Personally I find supports often overrated as it seems th bonuses are applied in statistical comparisons while the time they get it and the requirements seem neglected. Any guideline out there on how to handle supports for these debates?

[-Cynthia-]

@Bold: Yes, yes it is.

@Italic: No. I didn't move it up because of that argument, I simply looked for elaboration of that statement and found no reason for Zihark to be above Stefan except for the "what ifs" you presented which were already considered when I switched their positions.

While supports are beneficial, they still come with requisites, these being the use of the units supporting and constantly keeping units within 3 spaces of each other (that one probably isn't much of an issue but it's still a requisite and supports AREN'T ALWAYS there).

As you've shown, Zihark only surpasses Stefan once supports are built, A rank being there once he and the units he supports have been fielded together for 9 maps for Muarim/Brom for example. What about the time those supports aren't there? Stefan's quite good without supports.

Personally I find supports often overrated as it seems th bonuses are applied in statistical comparisons while the time they get it and the requirements seem neglected. Any guideline out there on how to handle supports for these debates?

He already has a C Brom(or Illyana) when Stefan joins, and a B 2 chapters after that. So the supports are never absent, unless we aren't fielding any of these characters.

Yes, it's possible we might not be using these characters. However, all 3 of Zihark's options are average or above average, so the likelihood of fielding 2 out of the 3 of them is very high, especially considering that they all become substantially better with Zihark's support. On most maps we aren't that pressed for slots anyway. It technically is a what if, but we can control what characters are on the field, and having 2 out of Zihark's 3 support on the field is more likely than not. Path of Radiance is also the easiest game to build supports, they don't even have to be next to each other.

Not considering supports is just wrong. Supports are a part of FE, plain and simple. If you can't recognize that fact then you're probably not qualified to run a tier list topic.

[grandjackal]

Geoffrey has a lot of things in his favor over Haar. Haar's bow weakness is a big problem, since his first 3 maps have ballistae on them, Geoffrey doesn't have this issue and is more durable overall. Geoffrey also beats Haar pretty handily in offense, since Geoffrey can double nearly everything, after a few levels, perhaps with KW access, Haar will only be doubling Generals and Wyvern Riders.

Haar's support list isn't much better than Geoffrey's. There's a good chance Jill will already have Mist and Lethe, since they arrive sooner than Haar, he can have Makalov though. Geoffrey stands a good chance of getting Callil, since Tormod isn't so great and she only has 3 options, and Elincia has no other choices so he gets her if she's fielde. Plus, I would argue that Fire>Wind.

Plus, Paragon is just huge. Geoffrey's CEXP and BEXP usage is just absurdly efficient compared to Haar or anyone else not named Astrid.

D'oh, forgot that wyverns have the bow weakness again. Not FE10 *bops self in the head*

I'm going to assume it triples the effects of slayer damage, and I'm also assuming that strength is not taken into account, as I recall balistae such as the stone dinging people despite how absurdly powerful these weapons are. Hmm...Seems he does only need 2 shots of the strongest ballistae type to die. Rather raunchy considering. However, he can survive that and a killer ballistae, which is a problem since he also has bad luck. However, he can take the full guard, and arguably makes the best use out of it, as he basically starts off unable to be hurt by anything but the strongest, which does a bitch 2 damage. However, he does take it from people who would otherwise be of use due to ballistae calling it a day for them, but he basically starts out able to absorb deadly killer ballistae shots with it. I'd rather have a unit become even more unkillable rather than bring a unit from sucking to not sucking. Either way, once these are gone, he's free to fly about, as most bows due to his iron defense are still doing damage Haar laughs at.

Anywho, fastforward to Geoff, and lets compare them both just at base...Ok.

Their durability is weird. Haar has 4 HP and 1 Res over him (wtf?), while Geoff has 1 defense (how is a paladin out-defense-ing a fucking wyvern lord?) and 4 avoid, so you could say Haar has a durability lead, but it's rather close. Offensively, Haar has 3 strength and axes over Geoffery's 2 AS lead. 2 AS can mean the difference between doubling and not doubling, but Haar has access to his own personal weapon the Brave Axe. Yes, indeed the axe is not his alone, but those who can use axes are probably bitchingly powerful as is along with speed, so they wouldn't actually mind letting Haar have it. Geoffery has the advantage, I suppose, of not having to rely on a weapon to be good. Good thing on his part.

However, Geoff has a problem, that being he has no axes, and is stuck with...bows. Haar has lances anyways, and I recall it's rank being quite good as is. However, this axes deal means he has WT control, something Geoff has little of, so Haar actually pulls ahead with an avoid lead, despite how little it is. On top of that, he could at least have a support going with Makalov. Wind might suck, but Mak's not exactly having many good choices here. Besides, he would love more avoid regardless, it gets him an extra point of defense at a B, and his skill IS a tad lacking...On top of that, Makalov happens to rock, and be a paladin. Geoff on the other hand has...Calill. A rather average character with a noticeable move difference. Also unlike Geoff, he has other options, so he can at least be a cop-out support in case others aren't played, while Geoff is doomed to be SOL. Also consider his best two supports give full avoid and 2 defense, he actually pulls a defense lead as well. I recall axes also reducing damage, but if it applies to FE9, I'm unsure. However, this shows that Haar is actually capable of benefitting other people. Other awesome people.

As for skills, both have pretty cool ones. Geoff's got Paragon, while Haar's got Cancel. Cancel just makes Haar all that much harder to kill, for when it activates, his enemy just forgets to counter. Can be quite devestating. Geoff however, can level faster. Good and all, but with the time Haar has before him, Haar's got a level lead anyways, along with a bit of statistical growth on his side. It's good for him, he becomes pretty kick ass pretty fast, and he catches up with ease.

However, here's something Haar does that Geoff cannot. Fly, and ignore terrain. This isn't past FEs where most troublesome terrain is beneficial terrain, no it's stuff like path-blocking trees, or barricades, or fancy decorations, or the kicker that entire goddamn mountain level. There is a map before Geoffery arrives, where there is a forest in your way between the castle and your group. Haar however, can just bypass this, and help defend the castle before most others could. Quite good, as Crimean NPCs are not exactly the most competent. As for the mountain level, it sucks for both of them. However, Haar's problem is solvable while Geoff's is not. Haar can equip the full guard, but Geoff's heavy horse fucks his move severely on the mountain, and this cannot be fixed with dismounting (I made a funny!). Haar can equip it and essentially fuck up some rock pushers before the can actually manage to push their pesky rocks, or even take on the boss, of which the chapter ends when he dies. Yeah I'm aware Soren can just bust out blizzard and one shot this dude, but Geoff ain't reaching him till the tail end of the level. Either way, it gets rid of an incredibly pesky unit.

Then there's the twisted tower level. Forest again blocks your way, and quarters are cramped. Haar's ability to aid your team in the open area just flying over helps save up room so you aren't so cluttered. It's not too big a deal though, as it's a rather small level.

It's around Endgame that Geoff is better (that and that one Black Knight chapter. Geoff's around for that, right? Foggy memory). However, Haar's flight is severely useful in some chapters beforehand, and Geoff's horse even impedes him in one chapter.

Whoever's better is up to speculation still, but just because someone says they have lolparagon does not make them god when they exist for 5 chapters, and eve then a unit in lower mid is still out-utilizing him in a couple.

To basically compare, statistically they both got what you need. Haar is more durable, while Geoff is better offensively. Haar has supports that are good/is at least an option to them while Geoff's only got one really meh one. Haar's supports also keep up with him. Haar's axes are better than Geoff's bows, which gives Haar actual WT control. Haar's flight is put to better utility while Geoff's horse impedes him at times at this point. Speaking of flight, one thing Haar can do is ferry people over barricades and traps in that damn bridge level. He'll need the ful guard sure, but he puts it to amazing use regardless.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

He already has a C Brom(or Illyana) when Stefan joins, and a B 2 chapters after that. So the supports are never absent, unless we aren't fielding any of these characters.

Of this, I'm already aware. They're also absent whenever you move a unit outside of the support range (3) to attack an enemy on the player phase. This can sometimes be remedied but not always.

Yes, it's possible we might not be using these characters. However, all 3 of Zihark's options are average or above average, so the likelihood of fielding 2 out of the 3 of them is very high, especially considering that they all become substantially better with Zihark's support. On most maps we aren't that pressed for slots anyway. It technically is a what if, but we can control what characters are on the field, and having 2 out of Zihark's 3 support on the field is more likely than not. Path of Radiance is also the easiest game to build supports, they don't even have to be next to each other.

I wouldn't say the likeliness of combinations of units such as Brom, Ilyana, Zihark and Muarim always being fielded is very high. Muarim for example, comes in after C15's end I don't think it's unlikely for people to have a solid team at this point that they won't even need Muarim. The situation is a bit similar for Brom and Ilyana but to a lesser extent of course.

Ike and Titania would be very high (assuming they're the best support partners) since Ike always has to be fielded and Titania is just 1 required unit for that support to happen, not to mention that she's currently the very best unit on the list.

Not considering supports is just wrong. Supports are a part of FE, plain and simple. If you can't recognize that fact then you're probably not qualified to run a tier list topic.

This is funny.

If I didn't consider supports as you say, I'd be making changes to this tier list often and get swarmed with arguments to the point where this would have 4+ times as many pages as it currently has, it would be locked and a new thread would've already been made. Supports are considered, it's the weight of the supports that's being questioned for previously stated reasons.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Sirius

[-Cynthia-]

I'm going to assume it triples the effects of slayer damage, and I'm also assuming that strength is not taken into account, as I recall balistae such as the stone dinging people despite how absurdly powerful these weapons are. Hmm...Seems he does only need 2 shots of the strongest ballistae type to die. Rather raunchy considering. However, he can survive that and a killer ballistae, which is a problem since he also has bad luck. However, he can take the full guard, and arguably makes the best use out of it, as he basically starts off unable to be hurt by anything but the strongest, which does a bitch 2 damage. However, he does take it from people who would otherwise be of use due to ballistae calling it a day for them, but he basically starts out able to absorb deadly killer ballistae shots with it. I'd rather have a unit become even more unkillable rather than bring a unit from sucking to not sucking. Either way, once these are gone, he's free to fly about, as most bows due to his iron defense are still doing damage Haar laughs at.

Unfortunately, Haar is not the only character wanting Full Guard. Jill, Marcia, and Tanith are all top tier units that also have ballista problems, so by taking the Full Guard he's hurting them quite a bit.

Their durability is weird. Haar has 4 HP and 1 Res over him (wtf?), while Geoff has 1 defense (how is a paladin out-defense-ing a fucking wyvern lord?) and 4 avoid, so you could say Haar has a durability lead, but it's rather close. Offensively, Haar has 3 strength and axes over Geoffery's 2 AS lead. 2 AS can mean the difference between doubling and not doubling, but Haar has access to his own personal weapon the Brave Axe. Yes, indeed the axe is not his alone, but those who can use axes are probably bitchingly powerful as is along with speed, so they wouldn't actually mind letting Haar have it. Geoffery has the advantage, I suppose, of not having to rely on a weapon to be good. Good thing on his part.

Note that due to Geoffrey's Paragon he'll gain levels a lot faster than haar, which means his durability leads will grow over time. Also once Geoffrey's supports kick in, he'll be outdamaging Haar since he has a Fire affinity and Callil's Dark adds to Atk as well.

However, Geoff has a problem, that being he has no axes, and is stuck with...bows. Haar has lances anyways, and I recall it's rank being quite good as is. However, this axes deal means he has WT control, something Geoff has little of, so Haar actually pulls ahead with an avoid lead, despite how little it is. On top of that, he could at least have a support going with Makalov. Wind might suck, but Mak's not exactly having many good choices here. Besides, he would love more avoid regardless, it gets him an extra point of defense at a B, and his skill IS a tad lacking...On top of that, Makalov happens to rock, and be a paladin. Geoff on the other hand has...Calill. A rather average character with a noticeable move difference. Also unlike Geoff, he has other options, so he can at least be a cop-out support in case others aren't played, while Geoff is doomed to be SOL. Also consider his best two supports give full avoid and 2 defense, he actually pulls a defense lead as well. I recall axes also reducing damage, but if it applies to FE9, I'm unsure. However, this shows that Haar is actually capable of benefitting other people. Other awesome people.

Axes reducing damage? You're going to have to explain that a little more. Anyway, Haar does provide nice support to Makalov, though Jill is more tricky since she has to lose out on a Lethe support until Haar appears. Callil likes Geoffrey's boost though, since the odds of fielding Tormod are fairly low and she needs someone to fill her slots, and as said before Elincia has no other choices. Haar's supports give him half avoid(they aren't Earth), and Geoffrey gets Avo from his Callil support.

As for skills, both have pretty cool ones. Geoff's got Paragon, while Haar's got Cancel. Cancel just makes Haar all that much harder to kill, for when it activates, his enemy just forgets to counter. Can be quite devestating. Geoff however, can level faster. Good and all, but with the time Haar has before him, Haar's got a level lead anyways, along with a bit of statistical growth on his side. It's good for him, he becomes pretty kick ass pretty fast, and he catches up with ease.

Geoffrey is leveling over twice as fast, it's not a small advantage, it's a huge one. Cancel(called Guard in FE9) is OK, but it only has about a 20% chance of activating so I wouldn't rely on it. It's no match for Paragon at any rate.

However, here's something Haar does that Geoff cannot. Fly, and ignore terrain. This isn't past FEs where most troublesome terrain is beneficial terrain, no it's stuff like path-blocking trees, or barricades, or fancy decorations, or the kicker that entire goddamn mountain level. There is a map before Geoffery arrives, where there is a forest in your way between the castle and your group. Haar however, can just bypass this, and help defend the castle before most others could. Quite good, as Crimean NPCs are not exactly the most competent. As for the mountain level, it sucks for both of them. However, Haar's problem is solvable while Geoff's is not. Haar can equip the full guard, but Geoff's heavy horse fucks his move severely on the mountain, and this cannot be fixed with dismounting (I made a funny!). Haar can equip it and essentially fuck up some rock pushers before the can actually manage to push their pesky rocks, or even take on the boss, of which the chapter ends when he dies. Yeah I'm aware Soren can just bust out blizzard and one shot this dude, but Geoff ain't reaching him till the tail end of the level. Either way, it gets rid of an incredibly pesky unit.

Thing is, the other fliers can also do what Haar does here, including equipping the Full Guard. He does have the advanatge of having the option to do so though.

It's around Endgame that Geoff is better (that and that one Black Knight chapter. Geoff's around for that, right? Foggy memory). However, Haar's flight is severely useful in some chapters beforehand, and Geoff's horse even impedes him in one chapter.

There is the ballistae issue and I would argue Geoffrey is also better in Ch26 (the one where Bertram is the boss).

Whoever's better is up to speculation still, but just because someone says they have lolparagon does not make them god when they exist for 5 chapters, and eve then a unit in lower mid is still out-utilizing him in a couple.

This tier list is a little misleading since it goes from Upper Middle to Lower Middle, there usually is one in between.

Also, I suppose the weight of supports can be questioned, but keeping supporters within 3 spaces of each other isn't very difficult or inefficient, and in PoR building them is easy. And 2 out of Muarim/Brom/Illyana is rather likely, especially since we "know" we're using Zihark and they're decen/good characters. The odds of each support happening have to be discussed of course, based on the merits of said characters and how likely those characters are to be filled, but in Zihark's case it's pretty reasonable. To deny him his bonuses, you would have to argue against all his options or show how they're filled.

Edited June 12, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Unfortunately, Haar is not the only character wanting Full Guard. Jill, Marcia, and Tanith are all top tier units that also have ballista problems, so by taking the Full Guard he's hurting them quite a bit.

Even with full guard, Marcia and Tanith are still taking damage from it. Haar on the other hand just arrives and can be a god against them. Jill is a viable case. However, if we don't use Jill, Haar is your best bet.

Note that due to Geoffrey's Paragon he'll gain levels a lot faster than haar, which means his durability leads will grow over time. Also once Geoffrey's supports kick in, he'll be outdamaging Haar since he has a Fire affinity and Callil's Dark adds to Atk as well.

Problem is they have oddly enough the same durability growth. Haar starts out with more, and his pending supports give him+1+1. Considering the few levels they both have to go, he'd be tieing at best, otherwise Haar actually wins durability (Cancel needs to be accounted for as well)

Axes reducing damage? You're going to have to explain that a little more. Anyway, Haar does provide nice support to Makalov, though Jill is more tricky since she has to lose out on a Lethe support until Haar appears. Callil likes Geoffrey's boost though, since the odds of fielding Tormod are fairly low and she needs someone to fill her slots, and as said before Elincia has no other choices. Haar's supports give him half avoid(they aren't Earth), and Geoffrey gets Avo from his Callil support.

Having WTA means you reduce damage by 1 and do 1 more point of damage per strike. In most FEs anyways.

Here you have a point, but at least he can get a B with Mak. It's 1 defense sure, but it's more avoid for Mak, more avoid for himself, and extra padding never hurt. Thing is about these supports is that Haar's can keep up with him, while Geoff massively outruns Calill. Not to mention Elincia is just a terrible unit to field, and you should feel bad.

Also, it's not half avoid. I like to consider Earth double avoid. Both thunder and wind give avoid, thus full avoid. Half avoid would be like evasion+not evasion support. Like Fire and Dark.

Geoffrey is leveling over twice as fast, it's not a small advantage, it's a huge one. Cancel(called Guard in FE9) is OK, but it only has about a 20% chance of activating so I wouldn't rely on it. It's no match for Paragon at any rate.

True, but the problem is Geoff doesn't even have that much room to grow, and Haar's got a level lead on him regardless. Paragon's usefulness is subjective to the unit, and Geoff having no room to grow much anyways doesn't do the skill much justice. Cancel/Guard on the other hand is always useful in the right hands.

Thing is, the other fliers can also do what Haar does here, including equipping the Full Guard. He does have the advanatge of having the option to do so though.

Only one who I can think would be better for the option would be Tanith with the Sonic Sword. Either way, she's still vulnerable to damage from the ballistae, while Haar is free to just concentrate on wooping some wyvern ass.

There is the ballistae issue and I would argue Geoffrey is also better in Ch26 (the one where Bertram is the boss).

The ballistae issue is only an issue for one map he's pretty good at anyways, and I forgot about that chapter, good call.

This tier list is a little misleading since it goes from Upper Middle to Lower Middle, there usually is one in between.

Indeed, but the tiers seem so small...The game isn't exactly heavily casted, is it?

Edited June 12, 2009 by Kuja

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Also, I suppose the weight of supports can be questioned, but keeping supporters within 3 spaces of each other isn't very difficult or inefficient, and in PoR building them is easy. And 2 out of Muarim/Brom/Illyana is rather likely, especially since we "know" we're using Zihark and they're decen/good characters. The odds of each support happening have to be discussed of course, based on the merits of said characters and how likely those characters are to be filled, but in Zihark's case it's pretty reasonable. To deny him his bonuses, you would have to argue against all his options or show how they're filled.

By that method, I can't deny him the bonuses. I can't also assume that the bonuses are always in play and can't ignore that they are requirements for Zihark to beat Stefan when it doesn't seem to be quite a significant lead.