FE9 Tier List

[Dat Nick]

Never mind that Brom and Ilyana both suck.

[-Cynthia-]

Never mind that Brom and Ilyana both suck.

The tier lists indicate that Brom is average and Illyana is slightly below average. You're going to have to prove otherwise, not just say things.

That's the entire point really, if Zihark's only supports were Rolf and Lucia denying him supports would be fair. 2 out of Muarim/Brom/Illyana is very reasonable though.

[Dat Nick]

The tier lists indicate that Brom is average and Illyana is slightly below average. You're going to have to prove otherwise, not just say things.

Lower Mid is implying a little more than average. Below Average is more accurate.

Please don't tell me you need me to explain why Ilyana sucks. I believe you yourself once stated that she was a poor unit.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Aran Ryan

[dondon151]

Guys, effective damage in this game is 2x, not 3x. So those ballistae do like, 18-22 damage less to Haar.

[grandjackal]

Guys, effective damage in this game is 2x, not 3x. So those ballistae do like, 18-22 damage less to Haar.

Really now? That in mind, Lethe has even less reason to fear magic.

[-Cynthia-]

Lower Mid is implying a little more than average. Below Average is more accurate.

Please don't tell me you need me to explain why Ilyana sucks. I believe you yourself once stated that she was a poor unit.

He's at the very top of Lower Mid and there is no Middle tier, so he and Soren are actually at the exact middle, so yes average.

Illyana has 1-2 range , staves after promotion, and weapon ranks in the best form of magic. Mages are good in general because they can deal effective damage to beasts, fliers, and dragons. I think you're going to hae to come up with a good explanation of why Ilyana can't be fielded other than 'she sucks'.

[grandjackal]

Here's a thought, how about Illyana rises?

I can easily say she's better than Soren, because she off the bat has the rank in a better magic type, he doesn't start doubling until waayyy later, her supports are all around better, she's more durable than Soren anyways, his speed lead is lost due to heavier tomes weighing him down (as they don't weigh her down much, if at all)...How is Illyana not better than Soren? Especially since we need to train her less.

Perhaps Illyana be underrated?

[Dat Nick]

I think you're going to hae to come up with a good explanation of why Ilyana can't be fielded other than 'she sucks'.

How about "she can't double worth a damn"? That a good enough reason?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Here's a thought, how about Illyana rises?

I can easily say she's better than Soren, because she off the bat has the rank in a better magic type,

Soren gets the MAG to make up for it though and there are more flying units than there are Red Dragons.

he doesn't start doubling until waayyy later,

Takes even longer for Ilyana to double then.

her supports are all around better,

I vaguely recall valid arguments against this. Hmm...

she's more durable than Soren anyways,

Eh?

his speed lead is lost due to heavier tomes weighing him down (as they don't weigh her down much, if at all)

This was previously brought up and instantly shot down by the fact that Soren has an AS lead on her that makes it possible for him to double with the tomes he doesn't get weighed down (out damaging Ilyana) so much with that it makes this point moot. Also, because of his AS lead, if they're both not capable of doubling and both have to use the same magic, this point would only make a difference if using that magic will result in Soren getting doubled and Ilyana not seeing the same fate. No evidence of this being a possibility has been brought up.

[Vykan12]

I'm not going to get caught up in these stubborn exchanges, so I'll just lay out that I think Zihark > Stefan.

Not enough is being made of Stefan's durability problems. To draw a lategame comparison:

Stefan lv 20/17 (B Soren): 44 hp, 25 str, 30 AS, 7 luck, 15 def, 12 res, 72 avo (67 unsupported)

Zihark lv 20/14 (A Muarim, B Brom): 42 hp, 22 str, 30 AS, 15 luck, 18 def, 9 res, 107 avo (75 unsupported)

Zihark arguably wins durability whether neither get supports (slight def and avo > slight hp and res) or both get them (massive avo lead >>>). Though what really warrants some attention is Stefan's abysmal luck. Enemies only need 15 skill (5 if they carry a +5 crit weapon like a thunder tome) to have a %chance of critting him, and crits usually either kill him outright or leave him within 1HKO range against anything.

Now let's take a look at how both fare against some enemies that might cause them problems.

Paladin lv 7 (steel lance): 26 atk, 98 hit

Stefan is 4HKOed at 34 hit (1.33% cod in 4 rounds)

Zihark is 5HKOed at 0.78 hit

Tiger lv 11 (fang): 38 atk, 128 hit

Stefan is 2HKOed at 62 hit (38% cod in 2 rounds). He also has a 1.86% chance of being 1HKOed.

Zihark is 3HKOed at 9 hit (0.07% cod in 3 rounds).

I think I’ve made my point.

Sure Stefan has a 3 atk lead (6 per double), but that lead quickly diminishes from him having to steer clear or be timid around certain groups of enemies. I’d say this is especially true in chapters like Clash (10 million reinforcements), Twisted Towers (90% laguz enemies) and Final.

There’s a lot that can be said about Stefan’s early joining time, but he only comes in The Atonement (he’s not doing anything significant in the desert), a chapter before the point at which most of your units are hitting promotion. A 20/1 Zihark alone compares pretty well to Stefan, and is also quickly gaining ground on him due to how over-leveled Stefan is.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Vykan12

[Zkirsche]

Since Sirius hasn't been persuaded by my Lethe argument, let's compare Lethe to Nephenee. We'll give Nephenee a level of bexp, to be fair:

Level 9/0 Nephenee with forged steel (15 MT, 12 Wt): 23 HP, 24 Atk, 12 AS, 30.5 Avo, 10 Def, 4 Res. 76 gold per attack

Level 3 Lethe: 34 HP, 26 atk, 15 AS, 45 Avo, 16 Def, 10 Res. 0 gold per attack

Lethe beats Nephenee in every parameter. Nephenee is more expensive, less durable and worse offensively. Lethe also has more movement. So yeah, Lethe >>>>> Nephenee when Nephenee joins.

A few chapters later (Say, chapter 14), we'll give Nephenee a nice big 1.4 levels per chapter, whilst giving Lethe a mere level. Since Brom doesn't want nephenee (Boyd is better), we won't give her brom. Stats:

Level 13/0 Nephenee with forged steel (15 Atk): 25 HP, 25 Atk, 14 AS, 35.5 Avo, 11 Def, 4.5 Res. 66 Gold per attack.

Level 4 Lethe: 35 HP, 26.5 Atk, 16 AS, 47.5 Avo, 15 Def, 10 Res. 0 gold per attack.

Lethe is STILL winning in every parameter. Lol.

Chapter 18, let's give Nephenee a nice 1.3 levels per chapter as she isn't quite so under levelled anymore. We'll give Lethe a level every 2 chapters as she isn't quite so overlevelled anymore. Lethe has 'B' Jill by now. Let's check it out:

Level 20/1 Nephenee with same forge: 33 HP, 30 Atk, 20 AS, 49 Avo, 16 Def, 8 Res. 66 gold per attack

Level 7 Lethe, 'B' Jill: 39 HP, 28 Atk, 18 AS, 58 Avo, 17 Def, 11 Res. 0 Gold per attack

Offensively, it's a tie. Lethe has more movement than nephenee, which matters in a team of paladins, but Nephenee has slightly more Atk (18 AS is still enougth to double near-everything).

Defensively, Lethe wins with 6 HP, 9 Avo, 1 Def and 3 Res. She can also outrun enemies.

Lethe provides support bonuses. Nephenee doesn't.

Lethe STILL wins.

So yeah, Lethe is comparable to Nephenee, an upper-mid tier unit. Lethe for upper mid.

15/1 Zihark(Forged Steel Sword C Brom)

32 HP 26 Atk 20 AS 11 Def 3 Res 34 Crit 58 Avo

--/8 Stefan (Forged Steel Sword)

38 HP 32 Atk 25 AS 12 Def 9 Res 47 Crit 55 Avo

This is as good as it gets for Stefan. He wins offense and they essentially tie durability.

....Tie durability? Since when was 3 avo = 6HP, 1 Def and 6 res?

You forgot the Vague katti, which, at the cost of 1 Atk, gives him 26 more crit. Stefan crushes Zihark offensively.

Stefan lv 20/17 (B Soren): 44 hp, 25 str, 30 AS, 7 luck, 15 def, 12 res, 72 avo (67 unsupported)

Zihark lv 20/14 (A Muarim, B Brom): 42 hp, 22 str, 30 AS, 15 luck, 18 def, 9 res, 107 avo (75 unsupported)

You forgot Mordecai, who has noone else to support better than Stefan (Ranulf, Ilyana and Ulki all suck). Not to mention Soren is 'A' Since Soren only has a choice between him and ike. And Ike takes Oscar over Soren. So Stefan's durability actually looks like this:

Level 20/17 Stefan: 44 HP, 26 Str, 30 AS, 7 Ddg, 16 Def, 13 Res, 74 Avo.

This shows Stefan's better offensively, but worse defensively. Now, Stefan is 5HKO'ed by the paladins but still 2HKO'ed by the Tigers. However, just another point in def or HP turns that into a 3RKO. Clearly, Stefan can use a def-boosting band for easy results.

Edited June 12, 2009 by kirsche

[Dat Nick]

You forgot the Vague katti, which, at the cost of 1 Atk, gives him 26 more crit. Stefan crushes Zihark offensively.

Don't forget the +3 def

[Vykan12]

As for Haar vs Geoffrey, I am under the opinion that Haar is better.

Looking at their statistics, there’s not much that sets either character apart, even when factoring in paragon.

Haar lv 17 (A Jill, B Makalov): 51 hp, 25 str, 19 AS, 25 def, 13 res, 76 avo

Geoffrey lv 20 (B Calill): 49 hp, 25 str, 24 AS, 25 def, 13 res, 67 avo

Offensively, Haar has more atk since axes + lances > lances + bows. I’ll have to look carefully at the actual impact of Geoffrey’s AS lead since 19 can double a fair bit, and the brave axe is consistently argued to have little to no competition.

Durability-wise, Haar’s 2hp and 11 avo probably outweigh Geoffrey not being weak to bows, especially when a steel bow!sniper is only doing 9 more damage than before. In fact, a lv 12 steel bow!sniper only does 8 damage to Haar as opposed to 0 to Geoffrey.

Based on that alone, it would be a tie more or less. But then you have to consider Haar having greater availability, an advantage that is magnified by neither character being around long. Then Haar gives better supports, as well as earlier and for longer. Then he has all the advantages that flying provides. Unless that speed gap can be argued as extremely significant, I can’t see how Geoff is better.

[-Cynthia-]

....Tie durability? Since when was 3 avo = 6HP, 1 Def and 6 res?

Pretty insignificant leads on Stefan's part, especially consdiering they start fading rather quickly.

You forgot the Vague katti, which, at the cost of 1 Atk, gives him 26 more crit. Stefan crushes Zihark offensively.

Zihark only needs a few attacks after he promotes to use the Vague Katti as well, so I didn't bother including it (Zihark should have high rank in swords, considering he doubles everything and can't use anything else)

You forgot Mordecai, who has noone else to support better than Stefan (Ranulf, Ilyana and Ulki all suck). Not to mention Soren is 'A' Since Soren only has a choice between him and ike. And Ike takes Oscar over Soren. So Stefan's durability actually looks like this:

Level 20/17 Stefan: 44 HP, 26 Str, 30 AS, 7 Ddg, 16 Def, 13 Res, 74 Avo.

Neither Oscar nor Ike needs the 'A' that that support provides, the durability's superfluous at this point, and both Soren and Kieran would like A Earths, the benefit overall of A Ike-Oscar are not as good as B Ike-Oscar A Ike-Soren A Oscar-Kieran.

As for Mordecai, it's rather presumptous to assume that Ranulf, Illyana, and Ulki are all not in play, since Ranulf is a decent unit and the Illyana support starts sooner with better benefits. It only gives Stefan +1 Mt/+1 Atk anyway, along with some uncessary hit.

This shows Stefan's better offensively, but worse defensively. Now, Stefan is 5HKO'ed by the paladins but still 2HKO'ed by the Tigers. However, just another point in def or HP turns that into a 3RKO. Clearly, Stefan can use a def-boosting band for easy results.

You have to remember that even though Stefan has an Atk/Crit lead there's Zihark's innate Adept to consider. Zihark has about a 20-25% chance per attack to activate a third attack, which is rather significant.

[Vykan12]

You forgot the Vague katti, which, at the cost of 1 Atk, gives him 26 more crit [and +3 more def]. Stefan crushes Zihark offensively.

Overlooking the fact that this is a 25 use weapon (12.5 dead enemies, worse if you leave Astra on Stefan), you need to consider that this weapon can be saved, at which point Zihark can use it too (he should hit S rank shortly after promo). In fact, there’s really nothing to be gained from depleting the VK this early aside from maybe bosskills.

You forgot Mordecai, who has noone else to support better than Stefan (Ranulf, Ilyana and Ulki all suck).

I wouldn’t describe Ilyana as sucking (below average =/= never being in play) and you neglected to mention Mist, which makes for a dual water support. Mordecai isn’t necessarily free.

Not to mention Soren is 'A' Since Soren only has a choice between him and ike.

Why wouldn’t Ike get an A with Soren? If he chooses A Soren B Oscar instead of A Oscar B Soren, he only loses 5 total avo.

However, just another point in def or HP turns that into a 3RKO.

That isn’t changing the fact that Stefan is facing vastly larger hit rates than Zihark, which is significant since Stefan isn’t exactly a dodge tank.

Clearly, Stefan can use a def-boosting band for easy results.

Clearly, Zihark can use a str-boosting band to cut the atk gap down to 1-1.5 by lategame.

[Florete]

Why is no one mentioning the sweet WaterxWater goodness of MordecaixMist?

EDIT: Never mind, Vykan got it.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Dat Nick]

Despite Mist having a ton of other options? Ti? Boyd? Jill? Mordy still has room for B Stefan if he takes Mist btw

Edited June 12, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Zkirsche]

Go back a bit for my Lethe vs nephenee Wall of text.

Pretty insignificant leads on Stefan's part, especially consdiering they start fading rather quickly.

You were talking about joining time. Stefan is betetr than Zihark durably at joining time.

Besides, 6 HP is not insignificant. 3 Avo IS.

Zihark only needs a few attacks after he promotes to use the Vague Katti as well, so I didn't bother including it (Zihark should have high rank in swords, considering he doubles everything and can't use anything else)

Doesn't change the fact that Stefan can use it to boost his crit even futher.

Neither Oscar nor Ike needs the 'A' that that support provides, the durability's superfluous at this point, and both Soren and Kieran would like A Earths, the benefit overall of A Ike-Oscar are not as good as B Ike-Oscar A Ike-Soren A Oscar-Kieran.

Ike A Oscar/ B Soren: + 1 Atk, + 45 avo.

Ike A Soren/ B Oscar: + 1 Atk, + 42 avo.

Yeaj, Soren's support is better alright. Losing 3 avo and all...

As for Mordecai, it's rather presumptous to assume that Ranulf, Illyana, and Ulki are all not in play, since Ranulf is a decent unit and the Illyana support starts sooner with better benefits. It only gives Stefan +1 Mt/+1 Atk anyway, along with some uncessary hit.

How? they all suck. End of story.

I wouldn’t describe Ilyana as sucking (below average =/= never being in play) and you neglected to mention Mist, which makes for a dual water support. Mordecai isn’t necessarily free.

I didn't mention mist because she gets 'A' Mordy. It's 'B' Mordy we're debating.

Edited June 12, 2009 by kirsche

[Dat Nick]

Ilyana should be dropped, also. Sucky AS is suck. Haar and Lethe>Her, and if Brom>Her, I don't see why Gatrie doesn't.

btw, Mordecai can pick up Stefan sooner, and the avo basically does nothing for Mordy so he doesn't really care about losing it.

Edited June 12, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Vykan12]

Mordy prefers supports that give atk since he has some damage issues lategame (no strike levels in FE9 is lame).

[Dat Nick]

Ranulf nor Ilyana give ATK. I fail to see how this is relevant.

Lategame, Mordy struggles, in general. We're probably not going to use him that long.

Edited June 12, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Vykan12]

Lategame, Mordy struggles, in general. We're probably not going to use him that long.

If that's the case, then Stefan loses that support. Whoops.

[Dat Nick]

He has it for the time that he's beating Zihark the hardest: Midgame. I don't dispute Zihark starts catching up upon promotion.

[-Cynthia-]

As for Haar vs Geoffrey, I am under the opinion that Haar is better.

Looking at their statistics, there’s not much that sets either character apart, even when factoring in paragon.

Haar lv 17 (A Jill, B Makalov): 51 hp, 25 str, 19 AS, 25 def, 13 res, 76 avo

Geoffrey lv 20 (B Calill): 49 hp, 25 str, 24 AS, 25 def, 13 res, 67 avo

Haar getting a Jill support is iffy, since that means Jill has to go without either her Mist or Lethe support for the long period of time before Haar shows up. Even then, it's probably only a B Jill since Jill wants A Mist for the extra Atk/Def and earlier timing.

You also didn't consider giving Geoffrey an Elincia support. In the previous thread you said Mist was high tier due to heal+horse, Elincia has heal+fly whch is even better. Elincia has no other support options, so if Elincia is fielded, Geoffrey beats Haar in Str.

Offensively, Haar has more atk since axes + lances > lances + bows. I’ll have to look carefully at the actual impact of Geoffrey’s AS lead since 19 can double a fair bit, and the brave axe is consistently argued to have little to no competition.

Haar's AS doubles Generals, Wyvern Lords, and some of the slower Halbs and some Tigers. It's kind of a rough estimation since Reikken got a little lazier with the enemy stats near the end, but that's the gist of it.

Geoffrey's is enough to double anything, considering that AS could very well be higher given KW access. The other Paladins have likely gotten what they wanted from it by this point and BEXP has double the effect on Geoffrey anyway, so easy access is not a problem. This means the offensive gap between Geoffrey and Haar is rather largem as Haar doubles less than half of all the enemies while Geoffrey doubles all of them.

Durability-wise, Haar’s 2hp and 11 avo probably outweigh Geoffrey not being weak to bows, especially when a steel bow!sniper is only doing 9 more damage than before. In fact, a lv 12 steel bow!sniper only does 8 damage to Haar as opposed to 0 to Geoffrey.

Somewhat true, except for the ballistae on Haar's first 3 maps. They 2HKO him, and are thus are a big problem. Yeah, he could take the Full Guard, but this increases Jill/Tanith/Marcia's chances of dying considerably. Plus, Geoffrey can equip the KW and he'll have Def and Res leads over Haar.

Based on that alone, it would be a tie more or less. But then you have to consider Haar having greater availability, an advantage that is magnified by neither character being around long. Then Haar gives better supports, as well as earlier and for longer. Then he has all the advantages that flying provides. Unless that speed gap can be argued as extremely significant, I can’t see how Geoff is better.

Haar isn't terribly useful on the first map he's on, he can only be recruited midway through when the rest of the team is likely across the bridge and he has to spend several turns catching up. he really only has one good chapter of availability over Geoffrey, who's offensive lead is pretty large due to doubling. I could maybe see shortening th gap between the two, but Haar is not better.

[Dat Nick]

Haar getting a Jill support is iffy, since that means Jill has to go without either her Mist or Lethe support for the long period of time before Haar shows up. Even then, it's probably only a B Jill since Jill wants A Mist for the extra Atk/Def and earlier timing.

1 def and 5 avo is all Jill loses for the time she has until Haar comes. That's really not a huge deal.

Of course, Haar's boosts are only barely better, so it doesn't really matter either way.