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Vykan12

Sirius (Geoffrey) vs Cynthia (Calill)

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I'll start by conceding supports... there's just no way in hell that Geoffrey can win this since Calill supports Geoffrey, Tormod and Nephene who would all like her support. The only other person Geoffrey can support is Elincia and her affinity is just horrible -__- (Heaven).

Combat however, which is what these 2 basically do, is won by Geoffrey as he wins both offense and durability not to mention his 3 MOV difference in the lategame is quite significant and with his growth and Paragon, he's not falling behind.

Calill joins in C20, by this point we've got Kieran, Titania and Oscar and maybe Makalov and Astrid already wreaking some serious havoc that foot units have trouble keeping up. Oh and I guess Tanith, Jill and Marcia as well so there's already a good amount of slots by units she just can't do as much as and then there's other units more durable and better at combat than her like Boyd.

Geoffrey doesn't really have competition for lategame slots. Sure, there may be some supports he's removing from some foot units but Calill does the same and Geoffrey's lategame performance more than makes up for this since he's able to keep up with the other Paladins as well as being comparable to the likes of 20/10 Kieran for example. Now let's see how they do against enemies around their base.

Lvl 20 Fighter with Steel Axe vs Base Calill:

http://reikken.awardspace.com/FE9EnemyStats/Fighter.txt

That's 25 ATK going up against Calill's 8 DEF and 32 HP. 17 Damage per hit so she's 2 rounded. Against most other enemies, she's 3 rounded. This particular enemy, I found it on chapter 18 btw.

Now let's pit base Geoffrey against a random enemy Paladin with Steel Lance, Lvl 16:

http://reikken.awardspace.com/FE9EnemyStats/WeaponKnight.txt

That's 30 ATK (assuming 20 STR) vs 21 DEF, 5RKO, not to mention that this is an unfair comparison for Geoffrey as this an enemy we don't see until the Endgame and Geoffrey's got Paragon plus enough action to easily get enough level ups to change this.

Due to lack of precise enemy stats by chapter, I can't make comparisons without either sandbagging Calill or overrating Geoffrey so I'll just leave the comparisons with enemies at that.

Now on to the MOV lead, there's not much I can say that isn't already obvious: Geoffrey's durability makes him perfectly capable of using a good amount of his movement to keep up with the other Paladins as well as outrun foot 6 MOV Calill and this would result in way more enemy phase. Oh and Knight Ward + BEXP + Paragon = 85% SPD growth so any AS lead Calil MAY have gained over him is pretty much dead.

Supports + few more chapters availability does not beat 4 chapters where you'll definitely do much more than what you competition will and have less competition for spots in those late chapters.

I hate opening...

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I'll start by conceding supports... there's just no way in hell that Geoffrey can win this since Calill supports Geoffrey, Tormod and Nephene who would all like her support. The only other person Geoffrey can support is Elincia and her affinity is just horrible -__- (Heaven).

Fine by me.

Calill joins in C20, by this point we've got Kieran, Titania and Oscar and maybe Makalov and Astrid already wreaking some serious havoc that foot units have trouble keeping up. Oh and I guess Tanith, Jill and Marcia as well so there's already a good amount of slots by units she just can't do as much as and then there's other units more durable and better at combat than her like Boyd.

C20 is also a map consisting mainly of Wyvern Riders/ Knights, units that sport Def/Res gaps of about 10. Let's compare her offense, to say Astrid.

Base level Callil with a forged Thunder has 28 Atk, 20/8 Astrid with a forged Steel Axe has 34 Atk. Astrid is failing to ORKO lvl 18/20 Wyvern Knights (35/36 HP, 17/18 Def, 7/8 Res), while Callil ORKOs both without taking a counter. Astrid is a high tier unit, so Callil doing better offensively than she is is a good indication of her usefulness. Paladins can't climb the cliff face anyway, while Callil can attack at much further range with siege tomes, so the Mov difference hardly matters.

The slots aren't terribly competitive by this point, we get to field 11 units in Ch20 for example, while we get to field 12 in Ch25, when we have several more units to choose from. Plus, Callil is very useful in her chapters before Geoffrey arrives:

Ch 20: Many Wyvern Riders/Generals, which Callil performs better offensivly against than most other characters.

Ch 21: Also very General heavy, Callil performs well against Ena.

Ena has 52 HP 20 Def/20 Res

20/8 Ike has 34 Atk with a forged Steel Sword. He doesn't double Ena, so he's doing 14 dmg per round.

20/8 Callil on the other hand, has 38 Atk with forged thunder or 46 Atk with Bolting. She also doesn't take a counter like he does or take up the valuable space right in front of Ena. So once again, she's outperforming high tier units in combat.

Ch22: Callil can Shove Priests around, something all those mounted units can't do. She continues to perform well on this map, she easily ORKOS low level warriors (29-6 *2= 46, more than their HP). The Feral Ones can be problematic on this map, but not for Callil, since she can whip out a fire tome and kill them without being countered.

Ch23: Lots of wyverns on this map, and Callil can quickly kill the guys manning Ballistae with siege tomes, allowing fliers to safely advance.

Ch24: Again, fairly wyvern/general heavy. It's not as if these are the only enemies she performs well against either, since she doubles everything but SM's and nearly always ORKOs, it's just that her performance is even better by comparison against enemies with a large Def Res gap.

So yeah, Callil is helping out the team a lot when Geoffrey isn't around.

Geoffrey doesn't really have competition for lategame slots. Sure, there may be some supports he's removing from some foot units but Calill does the same and Geoffrey's lategame performance more than makes up for this since he's able to keep up with the other Paladins as well as being comparable to the likes of 20/10 Kieran for example. Now let's see how they do against enemies around their base.

You're overrating the number of slots available in Geoffrey/Callil's chapters compared to Callil's chapters. We have 11 slots in 20/22/24 and 13 slots in 21/23. We have 12 slots in 25/28, 11 slots in Ch27, and admittedly a lot in Ch19. This is fairly unimportant anyway, as Callil is a positive in her pre-Geoffrey chapters. As for supports, she's providing supports to several foot units (Neph/Tormod) that they appreciate, so her possibly pushing out potential suports is less of an issue than it is with Geoffrey.

Lvl 20 Fighter with Steel Axe vs Base Calill:

http://reikken.awardspace.com/FE9EnemyStats/Fighter.txt

That's 25 ATK going up against Calill's 8 DEF and 32 HP. 17 Damage per hit so she's 2 rounded. Against most other enemies, she's 3 rounded. This particular enemy, I found it on chapter 18 btw.

Most of the enemies up to ch25 aren't promoted, so this enemy is fairly typical.

Anyway, this particular axeman has only 85 Hit, base level Callil has 52 Avo. This means he only has 33% display hit, which is only 22.11% true hit. This means Callil only has ~ a 4.88% chance of a 2HKO from this particular axeman. Also consider that a 20/8 Callil avoids this 2HKO entirely, and Callil gains a fair amount of durability from her supports (a B Neph would drop this guy's hit to 10.81% true and her chance of a 2HKO down to 1%, she gets Avo from any support). All in all, Callil's durability is good enough that it doesn't hinder her offense.

Due to lack of precise enemy stats by chapter, I can't make comparisons without either sandbagging Calill or overrating Geoffrey so I'll just leave the comparisons with enemies at that.

I will admit that Geoffrey has a superior durability lead, but Callil has several ways to overcome this, namely 1-2 range to avoid counters, and she's only being 3HKOd at low hit rates anyway, it's not enough to hinder her offensive lead.

What offensive lead you ask?

--/12 Callil (forged thunder B Nephenee)

32 Atk 21 AS

--/11 Geoffrey (forged Javelin)

27 Atk 19 AS

Considering Callil hits Res, she's also usually doing 7-10 more damage per attack than listed here, IE she ORKOS, Geoff maybe 2RKOS. Geoffrey can switch to a 1 range weapon for extra Mt, but then Callil has the additional advantages of not taking counters on the Player Phase and countering more often on the Enemy Phase. Geoffrey with a forged Silver still doesn't hit as hard as Callil anyway due to Def/Res gap.

To be fair, let's do an Endgame comparison:

--/20 Geoffrey (forged Javelin B Callil)

35.5 Atk 24 AS

--/18 Callil (Thoron B Geoffrey B Nephenee)

38 Atk 24 AS

It's closer, but Callil still does 8-12 damage more per attack, which means 16-24 more since they both double. Her leads against laguz are even bigger due to effective damage.

Now on to the MOV lead, there's not much I can say that isn't already obvious: Geoffrey's durability makes him perfectly capable of using a good amount of his movement to keep up with the other Paladins as well as outrun foot 6 MOV Calill and this would result in way more enemy phase. Oh and Knight Ward + BEXP + Paragon = 85% SPD growth so any AS lead Calil MAY have gained over him is pretty much dead.

Unfortunately, Geoffrey's chapters often do not allow him to leverage his Mov lead.

Ch25: This one's fairly obvious, since all mounted units lose lots of Mov going up the mountain. Calill can kill Wyerns with Blizzard and even has an outside chance of ORKOing the boss (20/14 with B Neph/Tormod).

Ch27: Narrow hallways clogged with enemies limit Geoffrey's Mov.

Ch28: The trees in the middle of the map hinder Geoffrey's Mov as much as anybody else, Callil can at least attack over them with Meteor/Bolting. Callil has effectively 16 range with a siege tome, Geoffrey has 11 with a 2 range weapon and is subject to terrain penalties.

Endgame: More trees/fountains that hinder Geoffrey. Geoffrey rushing forward isn't terribly helpful anyway, since if Ashnard attacks him he won't ounter and might die.

You might want to say that siege tomes are a limited resource, but Callil is more or less entitled to them due to her Str and AS. Soren and Ilyana lose a lot of AS from them and Bastian is too slow anyway.

20/12 Callil has 21/20/18 AS with Blizzard/Meteor/Bolting

20/12 Soren has 18/17/15

20/12 Ilyana has 18/17/15

20/8 Tormod has 18/17/15

Bastian should only have 16 Spd anyway, so Callil uses them the best. She also starts out with enough weapon ranks to use them all immediately.

Supports + few more chapters availability does not beat 4 chapters where you'll definitely do much more than what you competition will and have less competition for spots in those late chapters.

Callil's availability lead definitely isn't insignificant, she has 5 chapters before Geoffrey arrives where she provides positive utility, Geoffrey only has 5 chapters total, he would have to be beating Callil handily in the 5 chapters they share to even be comparable. Unfortunately, she beats him in offense whenever she's around, so Callil>Geoffrey.

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For maps I looked here:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/gamecube/file/920189/39637

and videos on youtube ("Path of Radiance Chapter # should yield quick results) to get an idea how big the maps are.

C20 is also a map consisting mainly of Wyvern Riders/ Knights, units that sport Def/Res gaps of about 10. Let's compare her offense, to say Astrid.

Base level Callil with a forged Thunder has 28 Atk, 20/8 Astrid with a forged Steel Axe has 34 Atk. Astrid is failing to ORKO lvl 18/20 Wyvern Knights (35/36 HP, 17/18 Def, 7/8 Res), while Callil ORKOs both without taking a counter. Astrid is a high tier unit, so Callil doing better offensively than she is is a good indication of her usefulness. Paladins can't climb the cliff face anyway, while Callil can attack at much further range with siege tomes, so the Mov difference hardly matters.

Her offense is nice, I can't deny that but "the MOV difference hardly matters" I must disagree with for more MOV means are more likely chance of action. Granted, she could stay behind and use the Siege tomes and battle the enemies near your starting positions in this chapter but that's about it. For her to do much else, the Paladins and other higher MOV units would have to slow down and that is inefficient. Let's not forget that the siege tomes are limited and the more she uses them here, the less use she has of them. IIRC, she only has use of the Meteor tome she comes and whatever Ilyana may not have used of Bolting. "Why use Bolting so early?" Chip damage to help units kill >>> chip damage late in the game when there's so much power among your army.

The slots aren't terribly competitive by this point, we get to field 11 units in Ch20 for example, while we get to field 12 in Ch25, when we have several more units to choose from.

Except that for Geoffrey, that sure as hell isn't an issue when he actually keeps up with the other Paladins and be able to stuff with less requisites. Obviously not in C25 but otherwise, he has little for slots because it is better to field a combat unit with MOV as opposed to fielding a combat unit with less MOV that would require Rescuing in order to be able to do anything. Geoffrey can help with transportation, Calill requires it.

By chapter 20, if we have a team like so...

1) Ike

2) Titania

3) Astrid

4) Makalov

5) Oscar

6) Kieran

7) Marcia

8) Jill

9) Mist

10) Reyson

Hmm, that's 10 spots already. Here's a couple of options for the other spots:

Boyd

Tanith

Zihark

Muarim

Nephene

Stefan

Ok, perhaps fielding her over Nephenee and Stefan and possibly Muarim but to place Calill in for Boyd and Tanith and possibly Zihark would remove some good supports of the other likely fielded as well as give you a combat unit with less MOV. To field her would be nuke a support or rid you of an already decent combat unit that has little to no trouble seeing combat or doing whatever else they do. Then for Calill to build up her support with Nephenee, she'd have to be fielded too. Again, perhaps not the right chapter to bring that in but the fact remains however that in the lategame chapters you are packed with many high MOV units and some with slightly higher MOV that offer supports to decent units as well as equal or close combat ability to Calill's.

Plus, Callil is very useful in her chapters before Geoffrey arrives:

Ch 21: Also very General heavy, Callil performs well against Ena.

Ena has 52 HP 20 Def/20 Res

20/8 Ike has 34 Atk with a forged Steel Sword. He doesn't double Ena, so he's doing 14 dmg per round.

20/8 Callil on the other hand, has 38 Atk with forged thunder or 46 Atk with Bolting. She also doesn't take a counter like he does or take up the valuable space right in front of Ena. So once again, she's outperforming high tier units in combat.

As well as a large map where she'll be outrun by the mounted units and will require rescuing to get far and if not rescued, your other units could probably do way with Ena before she arrives... Before Bolting she's in Bolting range though... eh gotta admit it would be far fetched to say that.

MAP21.jpg

I don't see Calill doing much other than Siege tomes in this chapter when she's got one of the lowest MOV numbers.

Ch22: Callil can Shove Priests around, something all those mounted units can't do. She continues to perform well on this map, she easily ORKOS low level warriors (29-6 *2= 46, more than their HP). The Feral Ones can be problematic on this map, but not for Callil, since she can whip out a fire tome and kill them without being countered.

One could argue that you'd probably get more CEXP out of killing those priests as it would just be 180 BEXP and a bit of tedious task for just that. Even if it's not more CEXP than BEXP, you're not missing much other than perhaps the Ashera staff but as you say, "healing is less valuable in the lategame" so who cares.

Ch23: Lots of wyverns on this map, and Callil can quickly kill the guys manning Ballistae with siege tomes, allowing fliers to safely advance.

Only the first 2, this is yet another map where Paladins easily out run your other units and foot units will see little action in this chapter and Calill will once again require rescuing to do much with non Siege tomes. Also, this chapter holds the very last Siege tome so her use with that will soon be gone.

Ch24: Again, fairly wyvern/general heavy. It's not as if these are the only enemies she performs well against either, since she doubles everything but SM's and nearly always ORKOs, it's just that her performance is even better by comparison against enemies with a large Def Res gap.

So yeah, Callil is helping out the team a lot when Geoffrey isn't around.

Again, another huge map where high MOV would be more efficient, Calill's MOV makes her require Rescuing and the best use of her are just those siege tomes and if you're using them consistently enough to make Callil's existence in the chapters worthwhile, you're down to the last Blizzard.

Being dependent on siege tomes to do your best as well as rescuing to move or slowing down other units which is inefficient isn't "a lot". Direct statistical comparisons show that Calill has good offense when compared to high tier units yes, but her MOV limits how well and often she can apply those stats. It'd be like saying that a 3 MOV unit capable of 1 rounding in the few instances that the 5 MOV unit can't is automatically better, which isn't true. Higher MOV gives units attack range radius for the player phase as well as allowing them to do stuff in the enemy phase. A unit that's 1 rounding or dropping the enemy's HP low enough for someone else to kill on the player phase and counter-attacking say... 3-4 units on the enemy phase even if it's just 2RKO is certainly contributing more than a unit that mostly has just player phase going on for her. If this were a conditional debate where all Paladins except Geoffrey were banned, she would win as the number of actions for her would increase. Too bad this isn't the case in this debate.

You're overrating the number of slots available in Geoffrey/Callil's chapters compared to Callil's chapters. We have 11 slots in 20/22/24 and 13 slots in 21/23. We have 12 slots in 25/28, 11 slots in Ch27, and admittedly a lot in Ch19. This is fairly unimportant anyway, as Callil is a positive in her pre-Geoffrey chapters. As for supports, she's providing supports to several foot units (Neph/Tormod) that they appreciate, so her possibly pushing out potential suports is less of an issue than it is with Geoffrey.

You're underestimating her low MOV and the only new "competition" for spots against Geoffrey is just Haar, who isn't doubling as much as Geoffrey and his durability is hardly any better. If anything, Haar's addition to the team makes it less likely that she'll see Chapter 24 since it only has 11 slots like her joining Chapter.

The supports are just possbility. Geoffrey being competent enough to have a high chance of replacing most characters is certain as he'll see more combat than others with less requirements. To keep a unit just for supporting (Calill/Nephenee another late in the game when you could swap him for someone who will contribute much more combat than that supporter(Calill/Nephenee) would be pointless. You're trying to get through the game efficiently, not trying to see how high you can get someone's ATK/Hit/DEF/Avoid.

Most of the enemies up to ch25 aren't promoted, so this enemy is fairly typical.

Anyway, this particular axeman has only 85 Hit, base level Callil has 52 Avo. This means he only has 33% display hit, which is only 22.11% true hit. This means Callil only has ~ a 4.88% chance of a 2HKO from this particular axeman. Also consider that a 20/8 Callil avoids this 2HKO entirely, and Callil gains a fair amount of durability from her supports (a B Neph would drop this guy's hit to 10.81% true and her chance of a 2HKO down to 1%, she gets Avo from any support). All in all, Callil's durability is good enough that it doesn't hinder her offense.

I will admit that Geoffrey has a superior durability lead, but Callil has several ways to overcome this, namely 1-2 range to avoid counters, and she's only being 3HKOd at low hit rates anyway, it's not enough to hinder her offensive lead.

Damn, enemies in this game suck. At least you agree that Geoffrey wins durability but Calill's low MOV gets in the way when it comes to letting her put it to use for enemy phase action. Geoffrey on the other is able to and as you saw with that unfair comparison I gave myself, Geoffrey's definitely seeing a good amount of enemy phase action.

What offensive lead you ask?

--/12 Callil (forged thunder B Nephenee)

32 Atk 21 AS

--/11 Geoffrey (forged Javelin)

27 Atk 19 AS

Considering Callil hits Res, she's also usually doing 7-10 more damage per attack than listed here, IE she ORKOS, Geoff maybe 2RKOS. Geoffrey can switch to a 1 range weapon for extra Mt, but then Callil has the additional advantages of not taking counters on the Player Phase and countering more often on the Enemy Phase. Geoffrey with a forged Silver still doesn't hit as hard as Callil anyway due to Def/Res gap.

A bit over leveled considering all the points I mentioned earlier about her MOV not allowing her to do much combat. This would require a good amount of BEXP and it's only getting much use in C25. While having powerful 1-2 range is nice, it's only much if the characters in comparison have similar durability, which isn't the case. There's only few enemies she's doing offensively better against (Generals. Against Wyverns he at least has Bows during the player phase and it's hardly an issue to use the trade command to switch a lance on him if necessary) but this does not make up for her MOV issue. A few level ups with Knight Ward SPD growth boost on him (85% SPD growth with it) would help him double what she cannot and forged Silver Lances don't hurt your funds as much as forged Thunder tomes or Fire and Wind if you're ever going there >_>.

To be fair, let's do an Endgame comparison:

--/20 Geoffrey (forged Javelin B Callil)

35.5 Atk 24 AS

--/18 Callil (Thoron B Geoffrey B Nephenee)

38 Atk 24 AS

It's closer, but Callil still does 8-12 damage more per attack, which means 16-24 more since they both double. Her leads against laguz are even bigger due to effective damage.

The hell? I can't be the only one who thinks this Calill is over leveled or fed some serious BEXP. I thought I might get the favoritism card played on me if I use lvl 20 Geoffrey on Endgame but damn... Callil's AS is 23.4 at that lvl btw.

Also, I like how you denied Geoffrey some Knight Ward growths:

Lvl 12: 19.85

Lvl 13: 20.7

Lvl 14: 21.55

Lvl 15: 22.4

Lvl 16: 23.25

Lvl 17: 24.1

Lvl 18: 24.95

Lvl 19: 25.8

Lvl 20: 26.65

Remove 2 levels and it's still 26 AS which is doubling everything but 2 SwordMasters and LolAshnard. Calill's only doubling the Cats and Tigers if she actually gets that many level ups, which ain't happening without some serious favoritism.

Without supports and Forged Silver Lance would be 42.5 ATK and Calill without Geoffrey support would be 36 ATK. Once again, the only real advantage she has over him are just Generals and these are just 6 out of about 40 enemies. Take a look at the Paladins for example:

1x Paladin lv 13 (steel blade)

40 hp, 29 atk, 19 AS, 111 hit, 46 avo, 20 def, 13 res, 7 crit, 8 cev

This guy deals 3 damage to Geoffrey out 48.8 thus a 16-17RKO. Forged Silver Lance Geoffrey is 1RKO. Calill will only double this guy if she has 23 AS and at lvl 16 she's got 22.5 AS. Unlikely.

1x Paladin lv 14 (steel sword, vulnerary)

40 hp, 28 atk, 20 AS, 111 hit, 48 avo, 20 def, 14 res, 7 crit, 8 cev

I don't have to compare this. Calill can't double this.

2x Paladin lv 13-14 (steel bow)

40 hp, 28 atk, 20 AS, 103 hit, 47 avo, 19 def, 14 res, 6 crit, 7 cev

Yet again Calill can't double this. Geoff's doing better on the enemy phase and 1RKOing on the player phase and only taking 3 damage per attack.

4x Paladin lv 14-15 (short axe)

41 hp, 28 atk, 18 AS, 98 hit, 43 avo, 19 def, 13 res, 6 crit, 7 cev

I guess Calill might be doing better against these offensively on the enemy phase but she has to risk a counter-attack no matter what and she take more damage than Geoffrey if hit.

1x Paladin lv 16 (brave sword)

41 hp, 28 atk, 21 AS, 112 hit, 51 avo, 20 def, 14 res, 7 crit, 9 cev

Calill obviously hates this one. Can't double double him and 2 attacks in 1 round if she gets attacked.

1x Paladin lv 16 (brave axe)

42 hp, 31 atk, 21 AS, 103 hit, 50 avo, 20 def, 13 res, 7 crit, 8 cev

No different from the previous.

Unfortunately, Geoffrey's chapters often do not allow him to leverage his Mov lead.

Ch27: Narrow hallways clogged with enemies limit Geoffrey's Mov.

They limit his attack range radius compared to larger maps yes but not his progress through the chapter. Canto exists for Paladins in this game and you know it so Geoffrey and other Paladins nuking enemies and still proceeding at a good pace is definitely possible. Without Reyson and Siege tomes she can only attack the Swordmaster or Cat in front of you and she isn't one rounding either of them while Geoffrey could 1RKO any of the enemy Warriors on the side and have have little (if any) trouble surviving the enemy phase. Like Calill the center path. Calill would be better off attacking the door for others to proceed more swiftly, possibly resulting in her falling behind more than usual and yet again... relying on Siege tomes to do much.

Ch28: The trees in the middle of the map hinder Geoffrey's Mov as much as anybody else, Callil can at least attack over them with Meteor/Bolting. Callil has effectively 16 range with a siege tome, Geoffrey has 11 with a 2 range weapon and is subject to terrain penalties.

Assuming she still has those, if you've saved a lot of these uses, for this chapter, you've pretty much nuked some use off her previous chapters. Doesn't change the fact that otherwise Geoffrey and the other Paladins are ahead trampling everything and Calill require Rescuing to keep up.

Endgame: More trees/fountains that hinder Geoffrey. Geoffrey rushing forward isn't terribly helpful anyway, since if Ashnard attacks him he won't counter and might die.

He'll die against Ashnard if we max his level ups without Knight Ward use like you brought up with the endgame comparison. If Calill's getting to lvl 18 (no), for Geoffrey to end up with the stats you gave him on your comparison is just bad sandbagging. Calill isn't doing much in this chapter anyway so why even bother fielding her? Geoffrey is a competent combat unit for this chapters and can help rescue units when necessary.

Callil's availability lead definitely isn't insignificant, she has 5 chapters before Geoffrey arrives where she provides positive utility, Geoffrey only has 5 chapters total, he would have to be beating Callil handily in the 5 chapters they share to even be comparable. Unfortunately, she beats him in offense whenever she's around, so Callil>Geoffrey.

She only beats him in offense against Generals and ranged people. Geoffrey wins MOV, utility and durability.

Now for some extra stuff: Why sometimes it be better not to field Calill and why giving her BEXP sucks. Fielding...

I know healing is less valuable in the lategame, but guess what? So is combat when it's mostly there with Siege tomes and requiring transportation. It would be more ideal to have another healer for physic in the event that you've divided up into groups and Mist isn't able to heal the other unit. One of the other Sages could be fielded for both Physic staff use, supports and Siege tome. Granted, Calill would do the better damage with the Siege tomes but she's not doing much else. Oh and there's the other units I mentioned that would compete with her for positions.

BEXP...

Her low MOV yet again. When you use BEXP, you want it to go to good use and how does that happen? The unit getting the BEXP is actually seeing combat. Calill isn't with all the Paladins running around and her concrete durability and MOV stops her from doing much enemy phase action and is therefore stuck to siege tomes and minimal player phase. No really, why not give the BEXP to people who are more easily seeing enemy phase? I don't think I even have to go into detail about why Geoffrey makes better use of BEXP (same reason as the other Paladins: He'll see lots of combat and then there's Paragon...), as well as the Paladins that haven't maxed level or reached sufficient stats.

There's also Ike. If he's getting RNG screwed on his stats or just not keeping up with the high MOV to get sufficient combat EXP, you'll definitely want some on him because getting the better Dragon and less trouble with Berserk Ashnard is better use of BEXP than giving it to a Sage limited to just combat limited by MOV.

To summarize: No, Calill's MOV is not something to neglect as it limits how well and often she can apply her stats. Geoffrey lacks this issue, makes good use of the BEXP and there's little to no issue in him replacing one of your units once he's around. Little reason to use Calill.

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Her offense is nice, I can't deny that but "the MOV difference hardly matters" I must disagree with for more MOV means are more likely chance of action. Granted, she could stay behind and use the Siege tomes and battle the enemies near your starting positions in this chapter but that's about it. For her to do much else, the Paladins and other higher MOV units would have to slow down and that is inefficient. Let's not forget that the siege tomes are limited and the more she uses them here, the less use she has of them. IIRC, she only has use of the Meteor tome she comes and whatever Ilyana may not have used of Bolting. "Why use Bolting so early?" Chip damage to help units kill >>> chip damage late in the game when there's so much power among your army.

On this particular map, wyverns will come down the mountain to attack characters in the top right near that house. It's unlikely that your fliers will be able to take all the wyverns on by themselves, so Calill being right at the base of the mountain is still very helpful.

Ilyana could theoretically use the Bolting, but she becomes a defensive liability while doing so. 17/0 Ilyana for example, falls to 3 AS while using Bolting. This means Ilyana is now getting doubled and considering her defenses and now negligible dodge rate, has a high chance of being ORKOd.

Although the number of siege tomes may appear to be low, more appear later on. It's also possible to have a well-trained Volke steal them, since every Sage who carries one also carries an alternate weapon (IE get into 2 range to lure them, then have Volke steal the now unequipped tome). Calill should have no problem accessing siege tomes, especially since she's probably using them fairly sparingly(only when she can't get in range normally) and the fact that she's the best candidate.

Except that for Geoffrey, that sure as hell isn't an issue when he actually keeps up with the other Paladins and be able to stuff with less requisites. Obviously not in C25 but otherwise, he has little for slots because it is better to field a combat unit with MOV as opposed to fielding a combat unit with less MOV that would require Rescuing in order to be able to do anything. Geoffrey can help with transportation, Calill requires it.

This would be true if the units with higher Mov were outperforming Calill in all aspects, but this isn't true. She ORKOS many enemies that they cannot, has 1-2 range, isn't hampered by things like the Ch25 mountain etc. I also have no clue what you mean by "be able to stuff with less requisites".

By chapter 20, if we have a team like so...

1) Ike

2) Titania

3) Astrid

4) Makalov

5) Oscar

6) Kieran

7) Marcia

8) Jill

9) Mist

10) Reyson

Reyson is fairly useless on this team, he won't actually be in range to Canto people other than Ike. While this isn't necessarily an unlikely team, it's just an example, these slots could very easily be filled with other units.

Hmm, that's 10 spots already. Here's a couple of options for the other spots:

Boyd

Tanith

Zihark

Muarim

Nephene

Stefan

Ok, perhaps fielding her over Nephenee and Stefan and possibly Muarim but to place Calill in for Boyd and Tanith and possibly Zihark would remove some good supports of the other likely fielded as well as give you a combat unit with less MOV. To field her would be nuke a support or rid you of an already decent combat unit that has little to no trouble seeing combat or doing whatever else they do. Then for Calill to build up her support with Nephenee, she'd have to be fielded too. Again, perhaps not the right chapter to bring that in but the fact remains however that in the lategame chapters you are packed with many high MOV units and some with slightly higher MOV that offer supports to decent units as well as equal or close combat ability to Calill's.

With the example given, putting Muarim, Zihark, Stefan, or Nephenee also would also not be supporting with any of the 10 units given in your example. However, these are all viable units and fairly likely to be in play. With Zihark, we would be supporting units like Brom and Ilyana-- who tie Calill in Mov. Here's a different example team:

1. Ike

2. Soren

3. Stefan

4. Mordecai

5. Ilyana

6. Zihark

7. Brom

8. Nephenee

9. Oscar

10. Kieran

Like the previous group, this group forms good all around supports, and Callil helps fill in Nephenee's last slot. They're all viable characters, generally as much as the previous list, the difference being that Calill now keeps place with the rest of the group. She ties with Ilyana,Brom, and Soren and only loses by 1 to Nephenee, Zihark,Stefan, and Ike, so she keeps up with over half the army.

My point is that teams are very varied, and to assume we have a team of all 9 Mov units (except Ike of course) on every playthrough is ridiculous. Odds are we aren't using all of them, and as such Callil is generally keeping pace with most of your units.

As for Nephenee, if Callil is assumed to be in play it would be good planning to pick Nephenee. Nephenee's a good unit in her own right, and both Nephenee and Callil become better when the other is in play. In addition to the +1 Atk, Nephenee receives a fair durability boost. This applies even more for Tormod, who recieves a 2-3 Atk boost and is his only durability boosting support, often dropping enemy hit rates on him below 50% when they would be above that otherwise. Calill being in play makes her support partners more likely to be in play. This doesn't really apply for Geoffrey, since Elincia gets very little out of a Geoffrey support and his other option is Calill which balances out in this particular case.

As well as a large map where she'll be outrun by the mounted units and will require rescuing to get far and if not rescued, your other units could probably do way with Ena before she arrives... Before Bolting she's in Bolting range though... eh gotta admit it would be far fetched to say that.

MAP21.jpg

I don't see Calill doing much other than Siege tomes in this chapter when she's got one of the lowest MOV numbers.

Even if we were using an all Paladin/flyer team, there are still many ways for Calill to be useful besides siege tomes. You've already mentioned rescuing as a possibility, Calill's low Wt allows her to be shoved/smited by most units, Mordecai has very little to do with his early turns anyway. If Calill chooses not to keep pace with the mounted units, she can still kill the enemies guarding the chests that Volke/Sothe cannot take care of or kill reinforcements (marked by the red squares on the map). The reinforcements thing applies to almost every map Calill is on, the mounted units running back to take care of reinforcements is inefficient, Calill killing them instead will likely save turns.

One could argue that you'd probably get more CEXP out of killing those priests as it would just be 180 BEXP and a bit of tedious task for just that. Even if it's not more CEXP than BEXP, you're not missing much other than perhaps the Ashera staff but as you say, "healing is less valuable in the lategame" so who cares.

It's generally assumed that we're clearing maps for max BEXP(360 from saving all the priests btw). The CEXP from killing the priests is low here, since they're generally low level and promoted we're probably only gaining 1-2 Exp per kill-- it's not worth it. And while it's true that healing value is diminished lategame, having a staff that fully heals HP/status of all allied units at max range >>>not having it. I also want to note that Calill is even more valuable here than usual in your all-mounted unit team, since she's the only unit other than Ike capable of Shoving.

Only the first 2, this is yet another map where Paladins easily out run your other units and foot units will see little action in this chapter and Calill will once again require rescuing to do much with non Siege tomes. Also, this chapter holds the very last Siege tome so her use with that will soon be gone.

Paladins are not that great on this map, since they get stuck in the holes just like everyone else. In addition to siege toming, Calill can help take out the various enemies that spawn near the starting point. It's worth mentioning that Calill does a better job fighting Petrine than most, since Calill has high Res and probably isn't being doubled. Doing well against stronger units is a positive.

Again, another huge map where high MOV would be more efficient, Calill's MOV makes her require Rescuing and the best use of her are just those siege tomes and if you're using them consistently enough to make Callil's existence in the chapters worthwhile, you're down to the last Blizzard.

It's also another map where Wyvern reinforcements appear near the starting point, as well as the Bandits that appear in the rivers. Paladins actually don't move that fast here-- the trees block them as much as they block foot units.

Being dependent on siege tomes to do your best as well as rescuing to move or slowing down other units which is inefficient isn't "a lot". Direct statistical comparisons show that Calill has good offense when compared to high tier units yes, but her MOV limits how well and often she can apply those stats. It'd be like saying that a 3 MOV unit capable of 1 rounding in the few instances that the 5 MOV unit can't is automatically better, which isn't true. Higher MOV gives units attack range radius for the player phase as well as allowing them to do stuff in the enemy phase. A unit that's 1 rounding or dropping the enemy's HP low enough for someone else to kill on the player phase and counter-attacking say... 3-4 units on the enemy phase even if it's just 2RKO is certainly contributing more than a unit that mostly has just player phase going on for her. If this were a conditional debate where all Paladins except Geoffrey were banned, she would win as the number of actions for her would increase. Too bad this isn't the case in this debate.

If we're mentioning the enemy phase, Calill is counterattacking here much more than Geoffrey is due to 1-2 range, she basically is going to kill any enemy that attacks her. Geoffrey on the other hand, is either 2RKOing with a Javelin or not counterattacking anything with 1-2 range or 2-range. And again, Calill has various resources at her disposal to deal with her Mov, rescuing/siege tomes/shoving/ fighting reinforcements/ the high % that most of the army doesn't outrun her much anyway.

You're underestimating her low MOV and the only new "competition" for spots against Geoffrey is just Haar, who isn't doubling as much as Geoffrey and his durability is hardly any better. If anything, Haar's addition to the team makes it less likely that she'll see Chapter 24 since it only has 11 slots like her joining Chapter.

It's still untrue that Calill sees significantly more competition for slots than Geoffrey does, as evidenced by the number of slots available. And again, it doesn't really matter, we're using Calill in the chapters where Geoffrey is around and she's a positive, being able to ORKO high Def enemies most people have issues with, making Nephenee/Tormod better etc.

The supports are just possbility. Geoffrey being competent enough to have a high chance of replacing most characters is certain as he'll see more combat than others with less requirements. To keep a unit just for supporting (Calill/Nephenee another late in the game when you could swap him for someone who will contribute much more combat than that supporter(Calill/Nephenee) would be pointless. You're trying to get through the game efficiently, not trying to see how high you can get someone's ATK/Hit/DEF/Avoid.

I already covered how Calill being in play makes it more likely for her support options to be available. And I do not want to get into a huge, mainly unrelated argument about Nephenee, but let's do a quick comparison.

20/11 Nephenee ( forged Silver Lance A Calill B Brom)

39 HP 41 Atk 26 AS 20 Def 11 Res 83 Avo

--/11 Geoffrey (forged Silver Lance)

43 HP 38 Atk 19 AS 21 Def 9 Res 50 Avo

Yes, Geoffrey has more Mov(not on Ch25 though) and will grow a little faster, but to say Nephenee isn't good enough to be in play is pretty ridiculous, especially considering how generally good she is throughout the entire game.

Damn, enemies in this game suck. At least you agree that Geoffrey wins durability but Calill's low MOV gets in the way when it comes to letting her put it to use for enemy phase action. Geoffrey on the other is able to and as you saw with that unfair comparison I gave myself, Geoffrey's definitely seeing a good amount of enemy phase action.

Geoffrey does have the potential for more Enemy Phase exposure, but this doesn't automatically make him better. Calill ORKOs more than Geoffrey does and she counters everything. Geoffrey on the other hand, either has to choose between 2RKOing or not countering enemies with 1-2 range.

A bit over leveled considering all the points I mentioned earlier about her MOV not allowing her to do much combat. This would require a good amount of BEXP and it's only getting much use in C25. While having powerful 1-2 range is nice, it's only much if the characters in comparison have similar durability, which isn't the case. There's only few enemies she's doing offensively better against (Generals. Against Wyverns he at least has Bows during the player phase and it's hardly an issue to use the trade command to switch a lance on him if necessary) but this does not make up for her MOV issue. A few level ups with Knight Ward SPD growth boost on him (85% SPD growth with it) would help him double what she cannot and forged Silver Lances don't hurt your funds as much as forged Thunder tomes or Fire and Wind if you're ever going there >_>.

Already covered the Mov point, and considering Calill's offensive prowess, slightly over a level a chapter is far from unreasonable. As for the Wyverns, Geofrrey is taking up player phases unless the positioning is such that the trader can be adjacent to Geoffrey and an enemy, which is rather inefficient(or he alternatively has no Enemy Phase, which is also bad).

Funds are a very minor issue in PoR, the bigger issue with forges is that no other character can get a forge for that chapter. Calill isn't particularly dependent upon forges at all, since she uses the A rank tomes better than the other Sages. Soren is the only Sage who beats her in Mag and Spd, and he gets weighed down severely by them(6-7 AS lost from Thoron). The other Sages are all slower than Calill anyway, and seeing as Bolganone is as strong as a forged fire and Thoron and Rexbolt are stronger than forged thunder, Calill shouldn't even need the forge, so this is a positive for Calill over Geoffrey, who loses offense to Calill even more with a basic Silver Lance.

The hell? I can't be the only one who thinks this Calill is over leveled or fed some serious BEXP. I thought I might get the favoritism card played on me if I use lvl 20 Geoffrey on Endgame but damn... Callil's AS is 23.4 at that lvl btw.

Every person that we're using is entitled to a share of BEXP, and we're probably only using about 10 people. We should have approximately 9,000 BEXP accumulated in total, Callil only takes ~600 of this for two level ups. Heck, I think I underleveled Calill, she can easily be --/20 by Endgame with only 3 or so levels of BEXP, her fair share. And even if she isn't level 20 heading into Endgame, she can level up quickly due to the high enemy levels here.

Also, I like how you denied Geoffrey some Knight Ward growths:

Lvl 12: 19.85

Lvl 13: 20.7

Lvl 14: 21.55

Lvl 15: 22.4

Lvl 16: 23.25

Lvl 17: 24.1

Lvl 18: 24.95

Lvl 19: 25.8

Lvl 20: 26.65

Remove 2 levels and it's still 26 AS which is doubling everything but 2 SwordMasters and LolAshnard. Calill's only doubling the Cats and Tigers if she actually gets that many level ups, which ain't happening without some serious favoritism.

We can't really penalize Calill for using BEXP after Geoffrey ,and possibly others like Astrid, hit their level cap, as they no longer have anything to gain from it. Calill doubles reliably with resources (BEXP), so does Geoffrey (KW). I also want to point out that my comparison with Geoffrey in Ch25 was ignored, if Geoffrey doesn't beat Calill until Endgame, Calill wins nine chapters to Geoffrey's one.

Without supports and Forged Silver Lance would be 42.5 ATK and Calill without Geoffrey support would be 36 ATK. Once again, the only real advantage she has over him are just Generals and these are just 6 out of about 40 enemies. Take a look at the Paladins for example:

Not giving Calill a Nephenee support isn't terribly sensible, both become better and Nephenee is a good unit. I was actually being pretty generous by giving Callil a Geoffrey support instead of a Tormod support, but if you don't like Geoffrey/Calill for some reason, both Tormod and Calill would prefer to support each other (earlier with the same bonuses), Calill now is only 1.5 points behind Geoffrey in Atk--and she hits Res so she deals more damage.

1x Paladin lv 13 (steel blade)

40 hp, 29 atk, 19 AS, 111 hit, 46 avo, 20 def, 13 res, 7 crit, 8 cev

This guy deals 3 damage to Geoffrey out 48.8 thus a 16-17RKO. Forged Silver Lance Geoffrey is 1RKO. Calill will only double this guy if she has 23 AS and at lvl 16 she's got 22.5 AS. Unlikely.

Level 16 Calill at Endgame is the unlikely thing here.

1x Paladin lv 14 (steel sword, vulnerary)

40 hp, 28 atk, 20 AS, 111 hit, 48 avo, 20 def, 14 res, 7 crit, 8 cev

I don't have to compare this. Calill can't double this.

Level 19 Callil does.

2x Paladin lv 13-14 (steel bow)

40 hp, 28 atk, 20 AS, 103 hit, 47 avo, 19 def, 14 res, 6 crit, 7 cev

Yet again Calill can't double this. Geoff's doing better on the enemy phase and 1RKOing on the player phase and only taking 3 damage per attack.

Geoff is doing better on the enemy phase...except he deals no damage.

4x Paladin lv 14-15 (short axe)

41 hp, 28 atk, 18 AS, 98 hit, 43 avo, 19 def, 13 res, 6 crit, 7 cev

I guess Calill might be doing better against these offensively on the enemy phase but she has to risk a counter-attack no matter what and she take more damage than Geoffrey if hit.

Very big if. --/18 Calill A Neph/B Tormod or Geoffrey has 85 Avo. She's only being hit at 3.51% true.

I'll admit that Calill isn't as good against very fast Paladins. But there's an enemy type she's better against that's more dangerous (and thus more important), dragons.

Dragons generally have 59 HP, 31 Def, 26 Res. Calill ORKOs those that she doubles(Rexbolt has 30 eff Mt), and deals massive damage to the very few she doesn't(2RKOes). She isn't countered while doing so.

On the flip side, max level forged Silver Lance Geoffrey only has ~45 Atk with a Calill support, he doesn't even 2RKO. He also has to eat a counter in the process, and the Dragons 3HKO him.

They limit his attack range radius compared to larger maps yes but not his progress through the chapter. Canto exists for Paladins in this game and you know it so Geoffrey and other Paladins nuking enemies and still proceeding at a good pace is definitely possible. Without Reyson and Siege tomes she can only attack the Swordmaster or Cat in front of you and she isn't one rounding either of them while Geoffrey could 1RKO any of the enemy Warriors on the side and have have little (if any) trouble surviving the enemy phase. Like Calill the center path. Calill would be better off attacking the door for others to proceed more swiftly, possibly resulting in her falling behind more than usual and yet again... relying on Siege tomes to do much.

Attacking the door so others can go forward= useful. We can get Callil to the Warriors with just a Smite, and she ORKOs them without being countered.

He'll die against Ashnard if we max his level ups without Knight Ward use like you brought up with the endgame comparison. If Calill's getting to lvl 18 (no), for Geoffrey to end up with the stats you gave him on your comparison is just bad sandbagging. Calill isn't doing much in this chapter anyway so why even bother fielding her? Geoffrey is a competent combat unit for this chapters and can help rescue units when necessary.

He's 2HKOd by Ashnard anyway, having him attacked really doesn't help the completeion of the chapter. The only people we want Ashnard attacking are Ike, dragons, and laguz royals, anyone else just slows down completion of the chapter, which is why Geoffrey rushing forward is useless. Giving Geoffrey KW levelups is fair, but so is giving Calill BEXP, considering the huge amounts of it available.

I know healing is less valuable in the lategame, but guess what? So is combat when it's mostly there with Siege tomes and requiring transportation. It would be more ideal to have another healer for physic in the event that you've divided up into groups and Mist isn't able to heal the other unit. One of the other Sages could be fielded for both Physic staff use, supports and Siege tome. Granted, Calill would do the better damage with the Siege tomes but she's not doing much else. Oh and there's the other units I mentioned that would compete with her for positions.

Geoffrey doesn't heal either. Using your logic, we wouldn't want to field him because he's kicking out an established support, since the only person he's supporting is Calill, which doesn't help him here.

BEXP...

Her low MOV yet again. When you use BEXP, you want it to go to good use and how does that happen? The unit getting the BEXP is actually seeing combat. Calill isn't with all the Paladins running around and her concrete durability and MOV stops her from doing much enemy phase action and is therefore stuck to siege tomes and minimal player phase. No really, why not give the BEXP to people who are more easily seeing enemy phase? I don't think I even have to go into detail about why Geoffrey makes better use of BEXP (same reason as the other Paladins: He'll see lots of combat and then there's Paragon...), as well as the Paladins that haven't maxed level or reached sufficient stats.

You never acknowledged most of the terrain factors I listed that hinder Paladins (mountains/rivers/trees), and you're still under the false assumption that we're always using all-Paladin team for some reason. Of course Geoffrey can get BEXP, but so can Callil. Since her use is assumed and she becomes more useful with BEXP, giving her some is sensible.

There's also Ike. If he's getting RNG screwed on his stats or just not keeping up with the high MOV to get sufficient combat EXP, you'll definitely want some on him because getting the better Dragon and less trouble with Berserk Ashnard is better use of BEXP than giving it to a Sage limited to just combat limited by MOV.

Ike can get BEXP, but this doesn't mean Calill can't. PoR gives the player a ton of BEXP and since we aren't using on units we aren't fielding, each unit can get a substantial amount. And really if you want to keep harping on Calill's Mov, Ike himself only has 1 more.

To summarize: No, Calill's MOV is not something to neglect as it limits how well and often she can apply her stats. Geoffrey lacks this issue, makes good use of the BEXP and there's little to no issue in him replacing one of your units once he's around. Little reason to use Calill.

Calill has various ways to overcome her Mov, Geoffrey has no way to overcome supports, availability, good 1-2 range, or hitting Res.

Edited by -Cynthia-

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On this particular map, wyverns will come down the mountain to attack characters in the top right near that house. It's unlikely that your fliers will be able to take all the wyverns on by themselves, so Calill being right at the base of the mountain is still very helpful.

Ilyana could theoretically use the Bolting, but she becomes a defensive liability while doing so. 17/0 Ilyana for example, falls to 3 AS while using Bolting. This means Ilyana is now getting doubled and considering her defenses and now negligible dodge rate, has a high chance of being ORKOd.

Although the number of siege tomes may appear to be low, more appear later on. It's also possible to have a well-trained Volke steal them, since every Sage who carries one also carries an alternate weapon (IE get into 2 range to lure them, then have Volke steal the now unequipped tome). Calill should have no problem accessing siege tomes, especially since she's probably using them fairly sparingly(only when she can't get in range normally) and the fact that she's the best candidate.

Which is something I already implied:

Granted, she could stay behind and use the Siege tomes and battle the enemies near your starting positions in this chapter but that's about it.

Anyone can. It's nothing special, only real difference is that perhaps she'll be 1RKOing unlike some other units but who gives a damn about reinforcements being 1RKOed when you don't need to bother moving ahead while fighting them? I'd rather have say... Zihark or Muarim do it since their concrete durability is better.

Interesting how you use a somewhat underleveled character to show this point and never mind the fact that you're pretty much implying she'll stay stuck with that blasted Bolting tome and not switch to something more efficient by the time they're around. Only unit I can see not promoted at this point is probably Tormod.

mhm. Yet another thing for Calill that relies on possibility. This is only happening on the assumption that Volke is actually trained and fielded on maps to steal this. This would pretty much be favoritism just to get Calill some more use... after all you did say siege tomes are pretty much entitled to her. Never mind that when you put Volke in 1-2 range, the Sage may just use the siege tome on some1 else instead, thus keeping it equipped and wasting our time since it's unlikely that no one else would be in the 3-10 range with Volke in 1-2 range.

This would be true if the units with higher Mov were outperforming Calill in all aspects, but this isn't true. She ORKOS many enemies that they cannot, has 1-2 range, isn't hampered by things like the Ch25 mountain etc. I also have no clue what you mean by "be able to stuff with less requisites".

No, this is true despite that, except in C25. A few of them are 1RKOing several enemies and 2RKOing is fine as it since their canto allows them to hit an enemy and continue forward and when they're in the range of enemies after that, many of them will be 1RKOed or weakened to the point where another nearby Paladin can swoop in for the kill and STILL move ahead.

As for "be able to do stuff with less requisites, I'm referring to her...

Requiring Siege Tomes to be able to do much player phase action since that's not happening so well without them.

Requiring Rescue and such to keep up with the others.

Requiring Nephenee as part of the team in order to reach the durability you show for Calill.

Requiring BEXP to reach your endgame examples. She's not doing enough combat to earn anywhere near such a level.

Requiring that you field her over a more mobile unit which is overall inefficient and nobody is crying over Calill not using a siege tome to get rid of an enemy.

Reyson is fairly useless on this team, he won't actually be in range to Canto people other than Ike. While this isn't necessarily an unlikely team, it's just an example, these slots could very easily be filled with other units.

Not exactly, if it's beneficial, a mounted unit could Canto back nearby Reyson to be able to move again. If he's transformed, 4 of them could do that. Not to mention that it may be likely for him to get the boots on such a team unless you're butthurt about Ike not being fed sufficient CEXP or something like that.

Anyway, here's an example. Pretend an enemy, a mounted unit and Reyson stand in a straight line like so:

0

1

2

3

4

5

6

E

7

8

9

P

10

11

12

13

14

R

E = Enemy

R = Reyson

P = Paladin/Canto unit.

In this example, that Canto unit can attack the enemy, return back within range of Reyson and attack the enemy again if necessary (and if not, rescue Reyson) and end up in space 2 (or 0 if he got the boots) and if another unit's adjacent or near that space, they can drop Reyson nearby if safe so he can still provide his utility. Foot units team can't function like this, if they want to attack an enemy, they may be forced to move about half or less of their MOV.

With the example given, putting Muarim, Zihark, Stefan, or Nephenee also would also not be supporting with any of the 10 units given in your example. However, these are all viable units and fairly likely to be in play. With Zihark, we would be supporting units like Brom and Ilyana-- who tie Calill in Mov. Here's a different example team:

1. Ike

2. Soren

3. Stefan

4. Mordecai

5. Ilyana

6. Zihark

7. Brom

8. Nephenee

9. Oscar

10. Kieran

Like the previous group, this group forms good all around supports, and Callil helps fill in Nephenee's last slot. They're all viable characters, generally as much as the previous list, the difference being that Calill now keeps place with the rest of the group. She ties with Ilyana,Brom, and Soren and only loses by 1 to Nephenee, Zihark,Stefan, and Ike, so she keeps up with over half the army.

Because supports are definitely a fielding requirement right? It isn't necessary for some1 to be able to support others on your team in order for them to contribute so as to why you jump the gun thinking that for Zihark to be in play we must have Brom in there as well is beyond me. Yes supports are beneficial, but they're not necessary and just as you say I can't assume every freaking team in the game to be composed of that many mounted units, you can't assume every freaking team that's made requires that every unit in it supports 1 other person in the team. Sure they're beneficial but they're not required and what if those supports aren't making a difference in how much some1 1RKO or 2RKOs stuff? Pointless support basically.

My point is that teams are very varied, and to assume we have a team of all 9 Mov units (except Ike of course) on every playthrough is ridiculous. Odds are we aren't using all of them, and as such Callil is generally keeping pace with most of your units.

I didn't exactly say it's the team we're ALWAYS going to use, I just showed one where Calill isn't doing much in and even if it's just a few Paladins, those guys can still move ahead, wreak havoc and basically deprive your units of some CEXP. The catch being that it's more efficient since you obviously take less turns and effort doing chapters with Paladins as opposed to doing chapters without them.

As for Nephenee, if Callil is assumed to be in play it would be good planning to pick Nephenee. Nephenee's a good unit in her own right, and both Nephenee and Callil become better when the other is in play. In addition to the +1 Atk, Nephenee receives a fair durability boost. This applies even more for Tormod, who recieves a 2-3 Atk boost and is his only durability boosting support, often dropping enemy hit rates on him below 50% when they would be above that otherwise. Calill being in play makes her support partners more likely to be in play. This doesn't really apply for Geoffrey, since Elincia gets very little out of a Geoffrey support and his other option is Calill which balances out in this particular case.

Yes, let's plan to use units simply to support the one you favorite as opposed to using units that can support those earlier in your team that would like some additional support as well as decent combat and lacking Calill's MOV issue. Hey, didn't I already concede supports when I opened, why the hell are you bringing this up? I know damn well already that Calill's winning supports but for her to get them, those units must be in play. Like with the Paladin team I suggested, Nephene isn't always going to be in play so what happens then? Why only consider how your unit is doing with supports? What about when her supports are not around which is more likely?

Even if we were using an all Paladin/flyer team, there are still many ways for Calill to be useful besides siege tomes. You've already mentioned rescuing as a possibility, Calill's low Wt allows her to be shoved/smited by most units, Mordecai has very little to do with his early turns anyway. If Calill chooses not to keep pace with the mounted units, she can still kill the enemies guarding the chests that Volke/Sothe cannot take care of or kill reinforcements (marked by the red squares on the map). The reinforcements thing applies to almost every map Calill is on, the mounted units running back to take care of reinforcements is inefficient, Calill killing them instead will likely save turns.

Yes, let's waste a unit's MOV so they get left behind even further simply to help Calill. Rescuing is an option indeed but you'd rather not have to rescue many. There is already Ike likely being rescued so we don't have to waste time on a chapter and perhaps Reyson transported closer. If there's less Paladins in play, you'd rather rescue the units with more durability since you place them in range of many enemy units with less risk and not have to waste much MOV to do that. Tauroneo for example, helps him get to Resolve quicker.

It's generally assumed that we're clearing maps for max BEXP(360 from saving all the priests btw). The CEXP from killing the priests is low here, since they're generally low level and promoted we're probably only gaining 1-2 Exp per kill-- it's not worth it. And while it's true that healing value is diminished lategame, having a staff that fully heals HP/status of all allied units at max range >>>not having it. I also want to note that Calill is even more valuable here than usual in your all-mounted unit team, since she's the only unit other than Ike capable of Shoving.

It's still arguable that the 360 BEXP you get from this tedious crap may not even be worth it. Fulfilling the requirement doesn't exactly result in efficiency as you're taking more time and effort to get the BEXP, Ashera staff and other items you can do without when the goal in the chapter is just to kill the boss and you don't have to kill so many priests to pull this off that you'll end up losing anywhere near of that BEXP from the priests.

Paladins are not that great on this map, since they get stuck in the holes just like everyone else. In addition to siege toming, Calill can help take out the various enemies that spawn near the starting point. It's worth mentioning that Calill does a better job fighting Petrine than most, since Calill has high Res and probably isn't being doubled. Doing well against stronger units is a positive.

Hmm, didn't know efficient playthroughs are the same as blinded playthroughs. I thought one would do some planning for an efficient playthrough so as to why you're falling in these holes when they're not randomly placed is beyond me.

Again, so can every unmounted and mounted unit. Jill would be recruiting Haar and those 2 could take them on. Never mind that Ranulf is here too and he didn't have to take a space just to fight some reinforcements. Never mind that units with better durability and decent offense would better for fighting reinforcements as there's less chance of death for them. There's little reason to care about whether your unit 1RKOs the reinforcements and more reason to care about your unit actually staying alive because it would suck to have to restart when you're almost done with a chapter just because Calill didn't dodge something. So if others can fight reinforcements better, what's the point of fielding her that?

Doing something against strong units before that unmounted one gets to said strong unit >>> waiting for the unmounted one. Petrine, like many bosses Petrine can go down in 1 round of several assaults from the Paladins or other units as well so why is this worth mentioning? Never mind that Petrine's DEF and RES difference is only 4. 20/7 Kieran (1 Knight Ward level up or 2) would be doing better than 20/10 Calill against Petrine for example.

It's also another map where Wyvern reinforcements appear near the starting point, as well as the Bandits that appear in the rivers. Paladins actually don't move that fast here-- the trees block them as much as they block foot units.

Already covered why Calill fighting reinforcements. As for the other point, most of the enemies will rush towards Geoffrey's group so units going through the forest may end up fighting less enemies plus the flying units easily deal with the few that stay behind and the boss so chances are that if Calill goes for the forests, your flying unit will have taken care of those by the time she gets there so yet again... for her to accomplish much, siege tomes are necessary.

If we're mentioning the enemy phase, Calill is counterattacking here much more than Geoffrey is due to 1-2 range, she basically is going to kill any enemy that attacks her. Geoffrey on the other hand, is either 2RKOing with a Javelin or not counterattacking anything with 1-2 range or 2-range. And again, Calill has various resources at her disposal to deal with her Mov, rescuing/siege tomes/shoving/ fighting reinforcements/ the high % that most of the army doesn't outrun her much anyway.

This is assuming we place Geoffrey in 2-range with a 1-range weapon when he has access to 1-2 range. Thus, it's mostly the player's fault if Geoffrey does not counter-attack 2 range. The army won't outrun her? Playthroughs with very low number in mounted units are unlikely and in such case, you'd rather rescue and drop a unit with more concrete durability as it would result in the rescuer being able to use what MOV they can and less risk in the enemy phase and perhaps limiting that unit's action just for Calill to see more.

Say we have a choice between carrying and dropping someone like... Tauroneo or Boyd and Calill.

If we're doing this with Calill, we're putting her at risk if she's dropped around a bunch of enemies just to 1RKO. If you don't, you're limiting that rescuer's MOV.

If we're doing this with Tauroneo, he's not 1RKOing unless in Resolve but he's definitely no risk. 48 HP and 22 DEF is gonna be hard to take down. With Boyd it would still be better durability than with Calill.

It's still untrue that Calill sees significantly more competition for slots than Geoffrey does, as evidenced by the number of slots available. And again, it doesn't really matter, we're using Calill in the chapters where Geoffrey is aroundand she's a positive, being able to ORKO high Def enemies most people have issues with, making Nephenee/Tormod better etc.

Siege tomes against enemies the Paladins and others will be able to kill anyway. No really, you're better off letting an enemy who's no issue at all attack someone in its range on the enemy phase. Example:

Paladin/Flying is within range Enemy A and has ended its turn. Enemy A will attack Paladin/Flying. Calill could kill this enemy but if the Paladin/Flying is doing so on their enemy phase, would Calill killing that enemy really be much of a positive? It's happening anyway so in the end, deciding which of the 2 should get the kill comes down to who would put the EXP to better use. Obviously the one seeing more enemy phase action and not having to rely so much on siege tomes to contribute to the team.

Fighting reinforcements better left for more durable units. It's nothing to brag about.

I already covered how Calill being in play makes it more likely for her support options to be available. And I do not want to get into a huge, mainly unrelated argument about Nephenee, but let's do a quick comparison.

20/11 Nephenee ( forged Silver Lance A Calill B Brom)

39 HP 41 Atk 26 AS 20 Def 11 Res 83 Avo

--/11 Geoffrey (forged Silver Lance)

43 HP 38 Atk 19 AS 21 Def 9 Res 50 Avo

Yes, Geoffrey has more Mov(not on Ch25 though) and will grow a little faster, but to say Nephenee isn't good enough to be in play is pretty ridiculous, especially considering how generally good she is throughout the entire game.

Except I didn't say Nephenee will never be in play, just that Calill REQUIRES Nephenee in play for the support. Geoffrey functions perfectly fine on both offense and durability without the need of supports but Calill on the other hand needs those in order to see any significant improvement on her durability and those supports aren't helping her low MOV anyway. Even if Nephenee is part of the team, there's still Calill taking a spot from someone who could provide better supports to better units and doing decently on offense and durability... Boyd for example, Mist and Titania would like his support in the event that their other supporters aren't in play. Geoffrey didn't need anyone being used to have his better durability.

Geoffrey does have the potential for more Enemy Phase exposure, but this doesn't automatically make him better. Calill ORKOs more than Geoffrey does and she counters everything. Geoffrey on the other hand, either has to choose between 2RKOing or not countering enemies with 1-2 range.

1 range is more common, in enemy phases where you're only fighting 1 range enemies, Geoffrey pretty much. Now if you are going to see 2 range attacking Geoffrey in the enemy phase, you'd switch 1-2 range depending on what Geoffrey will do in the enemy phase. Let's say Geoffrey does 60% HP damage to the enemies, despite the fact that 80% is possible on some 2-range C26 enemies at base level and 1RKOs enemies with 1-range like you said and thus count it as 100%

Scenario 1: Vs 4 2-range enemies.

If it's 60% to each, that'd be 240% damage out of 400% for the group. Calill would have 1RKO 3 enemies on the enemy phase to top that, and 2 to come close. The odds of that are limited due to her MOV.

Scenario 2: Vs 1 2-range enemy and 3 1-range enemy

Geoffrey 1RKOs the 3 1-range enemies and the 2-range enemy is left untouched. That'd be 300% damage out of 400% for the group Calill would need to 1RKO 3 enemies in the enemy phase to tie. He doesn't have to be as good as Calill offensively, he's doing more thanks to his MOV and durability. In full turn, Calill is often just 1RKOing (assuming she will with a siege tome, keep in mind that sometimes she'll end up having 1 use on a tome before attacking so in such instances it wouldn't be 1RKO unless it criticals) thus resulting in 100% damage to the enemy and Geoffrey would be doing what I just showed with enemy phase + possibly 60% or 100% for player phase and this doesn't require a limited use weapon so combat comparison between them would be

Calill: 100%

Geoffrey: 240%-300%-340% in scenario 1.

300%-360%-400% in scenario 2.

I think I'm being too nice with this since Calill gets some serious AS loss from Bolting and (13 AS with it at base level) and some from the others so she may not even be doubling so much with them in the first few chapters she's in.

Already covered the Mov point, and considering Calill's offensive prowess, slightly over a level a chapter is far from unreasonable. As for the Wyverns, Geofrrey is taking up player phases unless the positioning is such that the trader can be adjacent to Geoffrey and an enemy, which is rather inefficient(or he alternatively has no Enemy Phase, which is also bad).

You're underestimating MOV. This is probably not the best map to illustrate this but whatever, it's one I can work with:

Turn 1:

j6mv4x.jpg

This is an MOV comparison between Calill and a Paladin (Calill's MOV are the red dots and the Paladin's are those + the blue), assuming they both start in the same spot. As you can see, Calill won't see enemy phase action on the first turn because she won't be in range of the enemy. If Reyson (no boots assumed) starts out on that position and makes her move again, she'll end up just 1 space ahead of the Paladin's normal MOV if he/she started on that position. If we do the same for Paladin, he/she will be able to 1RKO one of the nearby enemies and move in their original space.

Turn 2:

2myrqfr.jpg

As you can see, Calill would move only 3 spaces ahead of the Paladin's position on turn 1. On turn 3, Calill would move where the Paladin did on turn 2 and then the Paladin could be 9 spaces away and the move difference would just keep on changing. So yeah, Calill would mostly see just 1-2 enemies on first few player phase and then she's stuck to siege tomes stealing kills from those that are moving ahead and reinforcements which are better fought with more durable units.

"But the Paladins won't always use their MOV if they're blocked by enemies in those bridges"

You've pretty much shown that enemies in the lategame are hardly an issue. If a Paladin is in range of such enemy, it's very likely that he/she will deal 50% damage on the enemy phase and then another 50% to finish it off and you know there's Canto for them so they will be able to use their MOV.

Every person that we're using is entitled to a share of BEXP, and we're probably only using about 10 people. We should have approximately 9,000 BEXP accumulated in total, Callil only takes ~600 of this for two level ups. Heck, I think I underleveled Calill, she can easily be --/20 by Endgame with only 3 or so levels of BEXP, her fair share. And even if she isn't level 20 heading into Endgame, she can level up quickly due to the high enemy levels here.

We can't really penalize Calill for using BEXP after Geoffrey ,and possibly others like Astrid, hit their level cap, as they no longer have anything to gain from it. Calill doubles reliably with resources (BEXP), so does Geoffrey (KW). I also want to point out that my comparison with Geoffrey in Ch25 was ignored, if Geoffrey doesn't beat Calill until Endgame, Calill wins nine chapters to Geoffrey's one.

Yes, assuming the other people in the team are indeed cap, I suppose Calill would be entitled to the EXP then but that's something you have to prove as likely. Otherwise you're just dumping BEXP on Calill for improved damage with a siege tome and normally you can get...

2 Boltings (1st one obtained in C16 so it may have some uses gone)

1 Blizzard

1 Meteor (which Calill comes with)

Each being 5 uses so that's only 20 attacks with them, up to 8 1RKOs (not counting criticals) and 4 uses that'll just weaken an enemy and not kill them. She needs Volke to steal for more.

As for C25, I actually thought at first that Calill would have a ridiculous win there but that's not exactly true. Paladins move 4 spaces and Calill only moves 2 more but one problem here would be her durability. She can't move far ahead from them on the first few turns because of the builders hitting any1 for 10 HP and on average, she'll never go above 40 HP so 2-3 builders would set her up for some enemies to 1RKO. Here's some that would kill --/10 or --/11 Calill in 1 hit if she's hit by 2 boulders:

1x Cat lv 7 (claw)
37 hp, 24 atk, 16 AS, 119 hit, 33 avo, 15 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 1 cev
3x Cat lv 9-10 (claw)
42 hp, 27 atk, 18 AS, 114 hit, 38 avo, 18 def, 9 res, 8 crit, 2 cev

1x Hawk lv 12 (beak)
42 hp, 25 atk, 19 AS, 129 hit, 41 avo, 16 def, 9 res, 9 crit, 3 cev

1x Tiger lv 14 (claw)
49 hp, 34 atk, 18 AS, 133 hit, 39 avo, 20 def, 9 res, 10 crit, 3 cev

2x Fighter lv 19 (steel axe)
40 hp, 26 atk, 12 AS, 90 hit, 29 avo, 13 def, 5 res, 5 crit, 5 cev
3x Warrior lv 6-7 (steel axe, 1 steel bow)
46 hp, 27 atk, 12 AS, 94 hit, 29 avo, 12 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 5 cev
1x Warrior lv 9 (laguz axe)
49 hp, 32 atk (45 eff), 13 AS, 96 hit, 31 avo, 13 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 5 cev
1x Warrior lv 10 (steel axe)
47 hp, 30 atk, 13 AS, 97 hit, 32 avo, 13 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 6 cev

1x Swordmaster lv 8 (silver sword)
34 hp, 28 atk, 21 AS, 123 hit, 47 avo, 11 def, 7 res, 24 crit, 5 cev

1x Halberdier lv 9 (steel lance)
42 hp, 25 atk, 15 AS, 105 hit, 35 avo, 14 def, 9 res, 7 crit, 5 cev

1x Cat lv 7 (claw)
37 hp, 24 atk, 16 AS, 119 hit, 33 avo, 15 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 1 cev
1x Cat lv 10 (claw)
42 hp, 27 atk, 18 AS, 114 hit, 38 avo, 18 def, 9 res, 8 crit, 2 cev

Enemies that can kill her if 3 boulders hit: Everything except maybe a few magic users.

She has the better MOV in this chapter but she doesn't have the durability to get too far without being put at some serious risk. She requires support here if she wants to get far and as for the Paladins, they have the durability to be dropped near a good amount of enemies if that means anything.

Not giving Calill a Nephenee support isn't terribly sensible, both become better and Nephenee is a good unit. I was actually being pretty generous by giving Callil a Geoffrey support instead of a Tormod support, but if you don't like Geoffrey/Calill for some reason, both Tormod and Calill would prefer to support each other (earlier with the same bonuses), Calill now is only 1.5 points behind Geoffrey in Atk--and she hits Res so she deals more damage.

Geoffrey functions perfectly fine without any support. Calill needs those supports to be more durable. Unit that functions more often with less needs >>> Unit that requires more to do so.

Geoff is doing better on the enemy phase...except he deals no damage.

If you're equipping him with a 1 range weapon while he's in range of a good number of ranged units, you're retarded. He's doing better with a forged Javelin against these compared to Calill.

Very big if. --/18 Calill A Neph/B Tormod or Geoffrey has 85 Avo. She's only being hit at 3.51% true.

The supports being there would be another if.

I'll admit that Calill isn't as good against very fast Paladins. But there's an enemy type she's better against that's more dangerous (and thus more important), dragons.

Dragons generally have 59 HP, 31 Def, 26 Res. Calill ORKOs those that she doubles(Rexbolt has 30 eff Mt), and deals massive damage to the very few she doesn't(2RKOes). She isn't countered while doing so.

On the flip side, max level forged Silver Lance Geoffrey only has ~45 Atk with a Calill support, he doesn't even 2RKO. He also has to eat a counter in the process, and the Dragons 3HKO him.

For the dragons to both be able to attack Geoffrey in the same turn would be unlikely as they're nowhere near each other unless you purposely go out of your way to make that happen. Calill is not doubling any of them with Thoron because even at --/20, she would have 24 SPD and 11.5 STR. Thoron is 14 WT and that 2-3 AS loss makes it impossible for her to double the slowest one which would has 19 AS

Attacking the door so others can go forward= useful. We can get Callil to the Warriors with just a Smite, and she ORKOs them without being countered.

minuscule "usefulness" that others can do as well, better if Brave weapon is used. Geoffrey doesn't require Smite to do this. Not requiring > Requiring.

He's 2HKOd by Ashnard anyway, having him attacked really doesn't help the completeion of the chapter. The only people we want Ashnard attacking are Ike, dragons, and laguz royals, anyone else just slows down completion of the chapter, which is why Geoffrey rushing forward is useless. Giving Geoffrey KW levelups is fair, but so is giving Calill BEXP, considering the huge amounts of it available.

Geoffrey and others rushing towards some enemies and then retreating for when Ashnard starts makes it less likely that other enemies will attempt to attack Ike while he's fighting Ashnard. Calill can get some BEXP but you have to prove that she isn't taking it from those that are contributing more combat and that they indeed cap levels early enough for Calill to receive a good enough amount to reach --/18 and such.

Geoffrey doesn't heal either. Using your logic, we wouldn't want to field him because he's kicking out an established support, since the only person he's supporting is Calill, which doesn't help him here.

You missed the point. Calill is mostly just mostly attacking with Siege tomes (assuming she still has them) and other sages can use Siege tomes too as well as provide healing for those are actually doing combat.

Doing much more combat without the need of siege tomes >>> Limited to player phase with Siege tomes. Geoffrey can't heal but at least he doesn't require siege tomes to do player phase and he sure as hell is doing some enemy phase.

Again, supports not a fielding requisite. This is like saying you'd rather keep Boyd who's doing less combat at this point and just support Titania instead of fielding Geoffrey who easily provides combat without much resources and is good use of BEXP. Another good combat unit >>> keeping someone around for supports.

You never acknowledged most of the terrain factors I listed that hinder Paladins (mountains/rivers/trees), and you're still under the false assumption that we're always using all-Paladin team for some reason. Of course Geoffrey can get BEXP, but so can Callil. Since her use is assumed and she becomes more useful with BEXP, giving her some is sensible.

You never proved just how much of a hindrance they are. Enemies may block chokepoints sure but if the Paladins 1 round them or kill the enemy on the player phase in which they move (which is likely) then such terrain certainly doesn't mean much.

C25 terrain: No shit.

C28 terrain: You already said it, the terrain there affects everyone equally so Paladins would still be moving far ahead. The forests that people can move into for cover are not what's hindering movement here. Calill is yet again stuck to siege tomes... assuming she still has them and as I've shown earlier, that's not likely unless we go out of our way to have Volke steal more for which would be bad favoritism.

@Bold: Efficiency. Paladins accomplish the same as foot units and more in less time. I'm not assuming that every playthrough will have a team FULL of high MOV units, just illustrating why Calill's MOV is an issue and I've shown that even if you have a few mounted units on your team, you're better off rescuing more durable units in order to not have the carrier use less of their MOV and capabilities

Ike can get BEXP, but this doesn't mean Calill can't. PoR gives the player a ton of BEXP and since we aren't using on units we aren't fielding, each unit can get a substantial amount. And really if you want to keep harping on Calill's Mov, Ike himself only has 1 more.

Doesn't change the fact that it would be a bad idea to not give Ike the BEXP in that scenario though.

Indeed, Ike only has 1 MOV and he's stuck to 1 range until Ragnell so he's likely to need BEXP and rescuing Ike means doing the seize goals faster while rescuing would be more of a requisite for her since all she's doing is trying to do combat without siege tomes which... Paladins are already doing without that need.

Calill has various ways to overcome her Mov, Geoffrey has no way to overcome supports, availability, good 1-2 range, or hitting Res.

Supports at this time are hardly necessary and don't mean much unless they often make the difference between 1RKOing and 2RKOing which isn't much. I've already shown how Geoffrey's MOV makes him better than Calill's 1-2 range.

Most of the advantages you list for Calill are assumptions. Geoffrey functioning well without many requisites is certain. Certainty >>> Possibility.

Edited by Sirius

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Anyone can. It's nothing special, only real difference is that perhaps she'll be 1RKOing unlike some other units but who gives a damn about reinforcements being 1RKOed when you don't need to bother moving ahead while fighting them? I'd rather have say... Zihark or Muarim do it since their concrete durability is better.

Because then that character cannot go on to fight additonal reinforcements or do other useful things. On Ch21 for example, Calill can clear the reinforcements on the eastern side of the map and clear the enemies guarding the chests. Units than don't ORKO like Calill does or don't have access to 1-2 range, like Zihark and Muarim, take longer to take care of the reinforcements. It's more efficient to have Calill kill the enemies in one Player/Enemy phase than it does for Zihark/Muarim to take several Player Phases doing the same.

Interesting how you use a somewhat underleveled character to show this point and never mind the fact that you're pretty much implying she'll stay stuck with that blasted Bolting tome and not switch to something more efficient by the time they're around. Only unit I can see not promoted at this point is probably Tormod.

You were implying that we were using up the tome before Calill arrives, 17/0 is pretty reasonable for Ilyana entering Ch17. It's true that Ilyana could switch if enemies are in her attack range, but she's still more of a defensive liability than Calill is if she uses a Siege tome while an enemy's in range, not to mention the lack of doubling. And while Ilyana might be able to use Bolting, she probably won't have have the ranks to use Blizzard or Meteor, Calill does.

mhm. Yet another thing for Calill that relies on possibility. This is only happening on the assumption that Volke is actually trained and fielded on maps to steal this. This would pretty much be favoritism just to get Calill some more use... after all you did say siege tomes are pretty much entitled to her. Never mind that when you put Volke in 1-2 range, the Sage may just use the siege tome on some1 else instead, thus keeping it equipped and wasting our time since it's unlikely that no one else would be in the 3-10 range with Volke in 1-2 range.

Volke being fielded obviously has more uses than stealing tomes for Calill, opening doors and chests and stealing staves and other weapons. Sages in general switch to their 1-2 range tome when someone's in range rather than use their siege tome, so Volke stealing it is rather likely if he has enough Spd.

No, this is true despite that, except in C25. A few of them are 1RKOing several enemies and 2RKOing is fine as it since their canto allows them to hit an enemy and continue forward and when they're in the range of enemies after that, many of them will be 1RKOed or weakened to the point where another nearby Paladin can swoop in for the kill and STILL move ahead.

There are also the multitude of terrain issues that keep Paladins from moving forward-- rivers, mountains, trees, enemies. Also, Calill taking one Player Phase to kill an enemy is better than 2 Paladins required for the same job, she's essentially doing twice the work as they are using two slots to do the same thing that she accomplishes with one. I admit that the difference is less significant when they are ORKOing themselves, but they often have difficulty with high Def enemies that Calill does not.

Requiring Siege Tomes to be able to do much player phase action since that's not happening so well without them

Except that Calill can still see action due to the reinforcements that spawn on almost every map, enemies near the starting point, and enemies/terrain keeping Paladins from using their full Mov. Siege tomes are just a bonus.

Requiring Rescue and such to keep up with the others.

Only to keep up with high Mov units, she keeps up with the very plausible team I provided quite well. She's often matching these units in Mov anyway due things like the mountain in Ch25 (she moves faster here than the Paladins), the multitude of priests blocking our way in Ch22 etc.

Requiring Nephenee as part of the team in order to reach the durability you show for Calill.

In debates, we assume the character being defended is in play, as well as supports for that character, assuming said supporter is not total trash that will bring the team down. You haven't given any reasons why Nephenee shouldn't be in play, and seeing as she's an upper echelon unit it's easy to see why. Tormod is actually a decent character as well and I didn't even include him in pre-Geoffrey comparisons, Celerity, staves, 1-2 range, and hitting Res are all positive traits, and both Tormod and Nephenee benefit from Calill's presence. Yes, it's possible that both Tormod and Nephenee are both out of play, but since we know we're using Calill, it also makes sense to field her support partners.

Requiring BEXP to reach your endgame examples. She's not doing enough combat to earn anywhere near such a level.

Of course I was always assuming BEXP for Geoffrey post Chapter 25. Let's show how Geoffrey does without BEXP.

Geoffrey probably cannot gain a level of CEXP during Chapter 25 since he has extremely low Mov on the mountain, no enemies spawning in behing, and general difficulties moving people on horses (he is very difficult to Shove or Rescue), so let's see how base Geoffrey does offensively in Ch26.

--/11 Geoffrey(Silver Lance/forged Silver Lance)

33/38 Atk 19 AS

--/14 Calill(Elthunder/ forged Thunder A Neph)

31 Atk/33 Atk 22 AS

The offense gap here is pretty huge, Calill does more dmg against every enemy except Sages due to hitting Res, unless Geoffrey gets a forge while Calill gets a basic tome, which would just be blatant favoritism.

Calill's also doubling a lot more than Geoffrey is, she doubles 44/50 of the enemies in this chapter. Geoffrey on the other hand is doubling only about half the map(26/50), and worse yet, is often not ORKOing these foes as many of them are

Warriors(WTD) or Generals/Wyverns (high Def).

Additionally Calill has a large advantage on the 18 enemies on this map that have 1-2 or 2 range, as she can counter on the enemy phase while he cannot, or he could choose to weaken his offense even further.

Geoffrey does climb out of this offensive hole eventually, but not that quickly as he has issues killing things, and you gain less CEXP when you only hit things. To get his AS up to par, he'll also likely require KW access, a resource he's using that Calill isn't.

So all in all, Geoffreymore reliant on BEX than Calill is. Endgame is less important than chapters like Ch25 anyway, because while having all the possible offense you can is useful on a rout map, neither Geoffrey nor Calill can hurt Ashnard, the requirement to clear Endgame.

Requiring that you field her over a more mobile unit which is overall inefficient and nobody is crying over Calill not using a siege tome to get rid of an enemy.

Ulki's more mobile than Boyd, but I'll be damned if fielding Ulki is more efficient. I don't even understand the second part of this, Calill not using siege tomes makes people cry? What?

Here's a resource Geoffrey is more dependent on than Calill, forges. Calill only loses 2 Mt between Elthunder and a forge, Geoffrey loses 5. Calill can also easily access the A level tomes which offer her additonal Mt and are not highly contested (most other Sages lack weapon ranks and/or Str). Forges on the other hand, are more or less wanted by every beorc unit, so Geoffrey's taking a pretty significant chink of resources, especially if he's taking a Forged Javelin as well.

Not exactly, if it's beneficial, a mounted unit could Canto back nearby Reyson to be able to move again. If he's transformed, 4 of them could do that. Not to mention that it may be likely for him to get the boots on such a team unless you're butthurt about Ike not being fed sufficient CEXP or something like that.

But if Paladins are Cantoing back to use Reyson, that defeats the entire purpose of your whole strategy of "mounted units rush forward, foot units see no combat". If Paladins and such have to constantly check their Mov to use Reyson, they aren't moving any faster than foot units who keep up better with Reyson normally. Boots don't entirely solve the problem either, Boots!Reyson still only has 7 Mov, which means he's still lagging behind 9 Mov units.

In this example, that Canto unit can attack the enemy, return back within range of Reyson and attack the enemy again if necessary (and if not, rescue Reyson) and end up in space 2 (or 0 if he got the boots) and if another unit's adjacent or near that space, they can drop Reyson nearby if safe so he can still provide his utility. Foot units team can't function like this, if they want to attack an enemy, they may be forced to move about half or less of their MOV.

Thing is, those foot units keep up with Reyson much better in the first place, so they won't have to check their Mov nearly as much as Paladins. Rescuing Reyson is generally inferior to Shoving him, since we can Vigor right after a Shove, Reyson loses a turn after being Rescued. If we're dead set on Reyson Vigoring 9 Mov units, people like Calill can Shove him and then go off and kill reinforcements and such.

I didn't exactly say it's the team we're ALWAYS going to use, I just showed one where Calill isn't doing much in and even if it's just a few Paladins, those guys can still move ahead, wreak havoc and basically deprive your units of some CEXP. The catch being that it's more efficient since you obviously take less turns and effort doing chapters with Paladins as opposed to doing chapters without them.

Not necessarily, let's look at victory conditions:

Ch20: Arrive

Ch21: Arrive

Ch22: Kill Boss

Ch23: Arrive

Ch24: Arrive

Ch25: Rout

Ch26: Rout

Ch27: Arrive

Ch28: Arrive

Endgame: Kill Boss

On all Arrive maps, we can only clear the chapter when Ike lands on the Arrive square. So we can have Ike and a band of foot units move in a group to reach the square, or we could rush mounted units ahead and wait for Ike to catch up. Both take about the same amount of time. Now we could Rescue Ike, but then we essentially lose 2 combat units, which isn't good.

Paladins can barely move on Ch22/25 anyway due to mountains/priests, so no help there. They can't kill Ashnard on Endgame, so rushing ahead doesn't help here either. Ch26 you might be able to make a case for, but it's so spread out and there are so many enemies that almost everyone should see some action. The extra slots here make it easy to field someone like Janaff just to cart units around as well.

Yes, let's plan to use units simply to support the one you favorite as opposed to using units that can support those earlier in your team that would like some additional support as well as decent combat and lacking Calill's MOV issue. Hey, didn't I already concede supports when I opened, why the hell are you bringing this up? I know damn well already that Calill's winning supports but for her to get them, those units must be in play. Like with the Paladin team I suggested, Nephene isn't always going to be in play so what happens then? Why only consider how your unit is doing with supports? What about when her supports are not around which is more likely?

Why in the world, when we know we're going to use Calill, would we deny both characters by not fielding them? Not planning our team to take advantage of these "free" bonuses just seems silly, when the alternative is to not recieve bonuses at all. I don't possibly see how you can say not fielding Nephenee is more likely than fielding her. Supports are not a resource, seeing as they benefit both characters. Really the only way you can consider supports a "requirement" is if fielding said supporter is a huge blow to team efficiency, but this definitely isn't the case with Nephenee and not really with Tormod either, though I did not include him in calculations.

Yes, let's waste a unit's MOV so they get left behind even further simply to help Calill. Rescuing is an option indeed but you'd rather not have to rescue many. There is already Ike likely being rescued so we don't have to waste time on a chapter and perhaps Reyson transported closer. If there's less Paladins in play, you'd rather rescue the units with more durability since you place them in range of many enemy units with less risk and not have to waste much MOV to do that. Tauroneo for example, helps him get to Resolve quicker.

Tauroneo also requires 6-8 attacks before he can even get to a decent speed (and even then he might not even match Calill), so during the time before Resolve activates he's 2-3RKOing, not good. He also doesn't have constant 1-2 range, making him worse against ranged enemies. Yes, Calill would be better with Tauroneo's durability, but getting 3HKOd at hit rates very far below 50% is not bad enough to be a hindrance. Tauroneo's also harder to move around, his high Wt makes him more difficult to Rescue/Shove.

It's still arguable that the 360 BEXP you get from this tedious crap may not even be worth it. Fulfilling the requirement doesn't exactly result in efficiency as you're taking more time and effort to get the BEXP, Ashera staff and other items you can do without when the goal in the chapter is just to kill the boss and you don't have to kill so many priests to pull this off that you'll end up losing anywhere near of that BEXP from the priests.

If we want to get through the chapter with as much EXP as possible (and loot), it's more efficient to field foot units than mounted units on this chapter, since we want to be Shoving priests left and right. Having units that Shove (Calill)> having mounted units that cannot here.

Hmm, didn't know efficient playthroughs are the same as blinded playthroughs. I thought one would do some planning for an efficient playthrough so as to why you're falling in these holes when they're not randomly placed is beyond me.

Even if we know where the holes are, Paladins still have to carefully manuever around them and can't fly over the sandbags, they're still having Mov issues due to terrain regardless.

Again, so can every unmounted and mounted unit. Jill would be recruiting Haar and those 2 could take them on. Never mind that Ranulf is here too and he didn't have to take a space just to fight some reinforcements. Never mind that units with better durability and decent offense would better for fighting reinforcements as there's less chance of death for them. There's little reason to care about whether your unit 1RKOs the reinforcements and more reason to care about your unit actually staying alive because it would suck to have to restart when you're almost done with a chapter just because Calill didn't dodge something. So if others can fight reinforcements better, what's the point of fielding her that?

So when we're slaughtering priests to lose BEXP and items time is a factor, but when it comes to reinforcements taking more rounds than necessary is fine? Calill's chances of dying are low, let's say she's being 3HKOD at 20% true, a fairly reasonable situation since she's facing like 3.14% true agaisnt some enemies in later chapters. She only has a 0.8% percent chance of dying, which is pretty low, especially considering she doesn't take counters.

Already covered why Calill fighting reinforcements. As for the other point, most of the enemies will rush towards Geoffrey's group so units going through the forest may end up fighting less enemies plus the flying units easily deal with the few that stay behind and the boss so chances are that if Calill goes for the forests, your flying unit will have taken care of those by the time she gets there so yet again... for her to accomplish much, siege tomes are necessary.

Flying units are also going to have trouble with the Ballista on the western side of the map. Never mind the fact that it's unlikely we're fielding so many fliyers that they'll clear the entire forested area all by themselves, there are quite a few enemies there not to mention the boss.

This is assuming we place Geoffrey in 2-range with a 1-range weapon when he has access to 1-2 range. Thus, it's mostly the player's fault if Geoffrey does not counter-attack 2 range. The army won't outrun her? Playthroughs with very low number in mounted units are unlikely and in such case, you'd rather rescue and drop a unit with more concrete durability as it would result in the rescuer being able to use what MOV they can and less risk in the enemy phase and perhaps limiting that unit's action just for Calill to see more.

If Geoffrey is attacking with a Javelin, any chances of him ORKOing anything other than Sages/Bishops go down significantly. Sure, Geoffrey can equip a Javelin on the Player Phase, now he doesn't ORKO almost anything on the Player Phase or the Enemy Phase. Meanwhile, Calill ORKOS things on both phases regardless of whetehr they have 1-2 range or not. Geoffrey has to choose between ORKOing on the Player Phase or not being able to anything against ranged enemies on the Enemy Phase, Calill doesn't.

Say we have a choice between carrying and dropping someone like... Tauroneo or Boyd and Calill.

If we're doing this with Calill, we're putting her at risk if she's dropped around a bunch of enemies just to 1RKO. If you don't, you're limiting that rescuer's MOV.

If we're doing this with Tauroneo, he's not 1RKOing unless in Resolve but he's definitely no risk. 48 HP and 22 DEF is gonna be hard to take down. With Boyd it would still be better durability than with Calill.

With Tauroneo he also takes a lot more turns to actually kill the enemies around him, which isn't more efficient. Tauroneo's more durable than Geoffrey too, that doesn't make him better, mainly because we care about fast we kill enemies-- durability is not the only parameter in the game, and Calill's chances of dying are generally very low.

Calill might be worse than Boyd, but honestly I don't think she has to outclass every single foot unit in the game to be Rescued/Shoved once in a while.

Siege tomes against enemies the Paladins and others will be able to kill anyway. No really, you're better off letting an enemy who's no issue at all attack someone in its range on the enemy phase. Example:

Paladin/Flying is within range Enemy A and has ended its turn. Enemy A will attack Paladin/Flying. Calill could kill this enemy but if the Paladin/Flying is doing so on their enemy phase, would Calill killing that enemy really be much of a positive? It's happening anyway so in the end, deciding which of the 2 should get the kill comes down to who would put the EXP to better use. Obviously the one seeing more enemy phase action and not having to rely so much on siege tomes to contribute to the team.

So now when Calill is in range, she isn't supposed to attack enemies because someone else could have killed it? We can use this logic for almost any character in the game-- someone else could have killed that enemy, so them being able to kill it isn't much a positive. Calill killing enemies helps clear chapters faster, Calill killing enemies means someone else doesn't have to fight that enemy, thus increasing their durability. Calill may very well have been able to kill that enemy while said mounted unit couldn't etc. etc. Killing enemies is really the entire point of the game, Calill being able to easily kill things quickly and efficiently is obviously a positive.

Except I didn't say Nephenee will never be in play, just that Calill REQUIRES Nephenee in play for the support. Geoffrey functions perfectly fine on both offense and durability without the need of supports but Calill on the other hand needs those in order to see any significant improvement on her durability and those supports aren't helping her low MOV anyway. Even if Nephenee is part of the team, there's still Calill taking a spot from someone who could provide better supports to better units and doing decently on offense and durability... Boyd for example, Mist and Titania would like his support in the event that their other supporters aren't in play. Geoffrey didn't need anyone being used to have his better durability.

Someone having to be in play is only a negative if they themselves are a negative, Nephenee really doesn't fit this.

Also, Calill isn't uber dependent on Nephenee or anything. For example with the Endgame Short Axe Paladins , --/18 unsupported Callil has 66 Avo, she's still only facing 20.8% true hit, which is still under a 1% chance of a 3HKO. The Nephenee support is nice for both of them of course, but it isn't necessary.

You've also contradicted yourself on supports:

Sure they're beneficial but they're not required and what if those supports aren't making a difference in how much some1 1RKO or 2RKOs stuff? Pointless support basically

Calill can't really REQUIRE a Nephenee support if supports aren't required.

1 range is more common, in enemy phases where you're only fighting 1 range enemies, Geoffrey pretty much. Now if you are going to see 2 range attacking Geoffrey in the enemy phase, you'd switch 1-2 range depending on what Geoffrey will do in the enemy phase. Let's say Geoffrey does 60% HP damage to the enemies, despite the fact that 80% is possible on some 2-range C26 enemies at base level and 1RKOs enemies with 1-range like you said and thus count it as 100%

All assuming we've pumped him full of BEXP that is. Without some he isn't ORKOing very much at all, even with a forge.

You're underestimating MOV. This is probably not the best map to illustrate this but whatever, it's one I can work with

You're overestimating Mov. I skipped the "scenarios" because all they showed was that Calill does better against ranged enemies, you just say she can't reach them due to Mov, which is silly with all the means we can use to reach enemies.

This is an MOV comparison between Calill and a Paladin (Calill's MOV are the red dots and the Paladin's are those + the blue), assuming they both start in the same spot. As you can see, Calill won't see enemy phase action on the first turn because she won't be in range of the enemy. If Reyson (no boots assumed) starts out on that position and makes her move again, she'll end up just 1 space ahead of the Paladin's normal MOV if he/she started on that position. If we do the same for Paladin, he/she will be able to 1RKO one of the nearby enemies and move in their original space.

??? If Calill moves twice she moves 12 spaces, a Paladin moves 9 spaces. That's 3 more spaces.

As you can see, Calill would move only 3 spaces ahead of the Paladin's position on turn 1. On turn 3, Calill would move where the Paladin did on turn 2 and then the Paladin could be 9 spaces away and the move difference would just keep on changing. So yeah, Calill would mostly see just 1-2 enemies on first few player phase and then she's stuck to siege tomes stealing kills from those that are moving ahead and reinforcements which are better fought with more durable units.

So now every time Calill kills an enemy she's "stealing kills"? She kills them just like everybody else, there's no "stealing". Your "more durable units should fight reinforcements point" still makes no sense, they're enemies just like any other, we want them killed quickly.

You've pretty much shown that enemies in the lategame are hardly an issue. If a Paladin is in range of such enemy, it's very likely that he/she will deal 50% damage on the enemy phase and then another 50% to finish it off and you know there's Canto for them so they will be able to use their MOV.

You do realize that it's much better to be killing an enemy on the player phase and additional enemies on the enemy phase than taking both the player and enemy phases to kill a single enemy. It's much easier to clear chapters faster when you kill more enemies in fewer turns.

As for C25, I actually thought at first that Calill would have a ridiculous win there but that's not exactly true. Paladins move 4 spaces and Calill only moves 2 more but one problem here would be her durability. She can't move far ahead from them on the first few turns because of the builders hitting any1 for 10 HP and on average, she'll never go above 40 HP so 2-3 builders would set her up for some enemies to 1RKO. Here's some that would kill --/10 or --/11 Calill in 1 hit if she's hit by 2 boulders:

Just as with the potholes on Ch23, the boulders on Ch25 are predictable, meaning we can manuever Calill around them. They do hinder her movement somewhat, but Ch25 is probably the best example of where Siege tomes comes into play, as they give Calill more effective range than any non-flyer.

She has the better MOV in this chapter but she doesn't have the durability to get too far without being put at some serious risk. She requires support here if she wants to get far and as for the Paladins, they have the durability to be dropped near a good amount of enemies if that means anything.

How are we dropping the Paladins again? Geoffrey has 35 Wt, I don't think anyone reaches that much Con.

If you're equipping him with a 1 range weapon while he's in range of a good number of ranged units, you're retarded. He's doing better with a forged Javelin against these compared to Calill.

Um, no he isn't. --/20 Geoff(B Callil) with a forged Javelin only has 35 Atk, the Bow Paladins have 40 HP, 19 Def he's 2RKOing. --/18 Callil (B Geoff) with a forged thunder has 35 Atk they have 14 Res, she's ORKOing. ORKOing> 2RKOing. Also, enemies with 1-2 range/2 range are not organized into nice little packs, they're scattered in with 1 range enemies.

For the dragons to both be able to attack Geoffrey in the same turn would be unlikely as they're nowhere near each other unless you purposely go out of your way to make that happen. Calill is not doubling any of them with Thoron because even at --/20, she would have 24 SPD and 11.5 STR. Thoron is 14 WT and that 2-3 AS loss makes it impossible for her to double the slowest one which would has 19 AS

Thoron only has 7 Wt, so she is doubling. She can switch to the Rexbolt for the fast dragons, any way you slice it she's doing better than Geoffrey.

Geoffrey and others rushing towards some enemies and then retreating for when Ashnard starts makes it less likely that other enemies will attempt to attack Ike while he's fighting Ashnard. Calill can get some BEXP but you have to prove that she isn't taking it from those that are contributing more combat and that they indeed cap levels early enough for Calill to receive a good enough amount to reach --/18 and such.

The map is crowded enough with enemies that both Calill and Geoffrey can easily engage enemies very early on. Geoffrey using his full Mov here doesn't help much, because 2 full Movs and he's in Ashnard's range already, or he can't use his full Mov due to enemy cloggage.

You missed the point. Calill is mostly just mostly attacking with Siege tomes (assuming she still has them) and other sages can use Siege tomes too as well as provide healing for those are actually doing combat.

They actually probably can't use the siege tomes due to the weapon ranks required to use them (except for lol Bastian but why in the world would we field him?) and often have doubling and durability issues while doing so.

Doing much more combat without the need of siege tomes >>> Limited to player phase with Siege tomes. Geoffrey can't heal but at least he doesn't require siege tomes to do player phase and he sure as hell is doing some enemy phase.

Again, having less Mov does not mean you never see any combat. Calill has the siege tomes as an option, they most definitely aren't her only ways to be in combat. Really, the prospect that all the enemies are immediately wiped out before any foot units get in range is pretty preposterous, outside of the limited scenario in which we field all mounted units. Take my example team for instance, Oscar and Kieran definitely aren't soloing the entire map, there will be plenty of enemies for Calill to fight.

Again, supports not a fielding requisite. This is like saying you'd rather keep Boyd who's doing less combat at this point and just support Titania instead of fielding Geoffrey who easily provides combat without much resources and is good use of BEXP. Another good combat unit >>> keeping someone around for supports.

Apparently Boyd sucks now too, because he isn't in with the 9 Mov brigade. Seriously, Mov is just a small aspect of a unit's performance. There's offense, durability, supports ,availability, utility. Boyd does all those things better than many of the Paladins, hence why he's not a useless unit. We do not compare units based off of Mov alone.

You never proved just how much of a hindrance they are. Enemies may block chokepoints sure but if the Paladins 1 round them or kill the enemy on the player phase in which they move (which is likely) then such terrain certainly doesn't mean much.

C25 terrain: No shit.

C28 terrain: You already said it, the terrain there affects everyone equally so Paladins would still be moving far ahead. The forests that people can move into for cover are not what's hindering movement here. Calill is yet again stuck to siege tomes... assuming she still has them and as I've shown earlier, that's not likely unless we go out of our way to have Volke steal more for which would be bad favoritism.

If they affect everyone equally that means that the foot units are catching up to the mounted units. Geoffrey obviously can't use his full Mov when there's a door in the way.

@Bold: Efficiency. Paladins accomplish the same as foot units and more in less time. I'm not assuming that every playthrough will have a team FULL of high MOV units, just illustrating why Calill's MOV is an issue and I've shown that even if you have a few mounted units on your team, you're better off rescuing more durable units in order to not have the carrier use less of their MOV and capabilities

Except for the fact that they don't accomplish the same thing. You're conveniently ignoring how Calill can ORKO the generals, wyverns, tigers, and do better against dragons than the Paladins do. There's also 1-2 range to consider, almost none of the Paladins can ORKO at 2 range, Calill can. Calill would be inferior if the Paladins could do everything she could but with more Mov, but they can't. By the way, Calill does not have to beat all the Paladins in the game to be betetr than Geoffrey, seeing as he's generally regarded the worst Paladin. She does have double his availability, and a character can be considered a positive during that time even if they aren't number 1.

Doesn't change the fact that it would be a bad idea to not give Ike the BEXP in that scenario though.

Calill's entitled to her share of BEXP, just like Ike is. Though by your logic Ike is useless too, since he doesn't have 9 Mov and thus will never see combat.

Most of the advantages you list for Calill are assumptions. Geoffrey functioning well without many requisites is certain. Certainty >>> Possibility.

BEXP, KW, and a forge are still "requisites", and he's still not better than Calill. As a side note, nearly every argument of yours can be countered by giving Calill the Boots. Yes, they're a resource, but now she moves along with the rest of the mounted units just fine. Geoffrey can't match Calill's usefulness unless he becomes a mage, joins 5 chapters earlier, and gets a decent support list.

Edited by -Cynthia-

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Sirius' opener wasn't the best I've seen because the majority of his post was about Geoffrey's durability lead, which missed important stuff like avoid. Just focusing on the concrete durability is passable at best as it doesn't give a complete outlook on their durability. Quite frankly, simply saying that a 20/20 Calill has, on average, 4 less HP and 7 less def than base Geoff would be enougth to establish a clear concrete durability lead in Geoff's favour and would have given Sirius more time to focus on Geoff's inferier avo, lack of good 1-2 range and, most importantly, offence. Which was incredibly lacking. It was just "Geoff has more mov = more enemy phase." Which is all well and good but ignoring the basic stats loses you points.

Cynthia's opener was on the contrary, I believed it to be quite good indeed. It was very detailed in giving reasoning as to why Calill is useful in the maps Geoff doesn't exist, whilst using various comparisons and statistics as evidence to support each claim. She was also very convincing when it came to the offensive comparison between the two with a joining and a lategame comparison to show that Calill's offensive stats were superier to Geoffrey's when it came down to stats alone. However, unlike Sirius, she addressed the points against Calill instead of ignoring them, shown where she addresses the movement issue Sirius brings up. She made an error with Geoffrey's lategame AS level and overlooked that Calill can have 24 AS with band usage, but I felt thet this was rather minor overall as Sirius didn't really make a case showing otherwise.

Sirius replied reasonably, I suppose. Some things that erked me about it, though:

Chip damage to help units kill >>> chip damage late in the game when there's so much power among your army.

Are units not killing in chapter 16-17? More importantly, is the chip damage actually worth it? Wouldn't fielding another unit to deal chip damage be better? You made such a fuss about how unit slots are limited and then go giving a unit spot to Ilyana, who has the same mov as Calill after premotion. And this is at a time with units that obviously need training as they can't kill and require others to deal chip damage.

Cynthia may not have called you out on it, Sirius, but proposing double standards is not good debating.

*Stuff about Calill being overlevelled

6 levels in 5 chapters much? That's 1.2 levels per chapter. I fail to see how this requires tonnes of bexp to achieve.

Same with 12 levels in 9 chapters - that's 1.333 levels per chapter. Again, this is easy to achieve.

Sorry, Sirius, but I don't buy your "Calill is overlevelled" thing.

Once again, the only real advantage she has over him are just Generals and these are just 6 out of about 40 enemies.

Laguz? Bonus damage = win. Cynthia mentionedis th, yet you failed to come up with responses save ignoring it. Ignoring stuff = bad.

There's other stuff, but this is getting tl;dr.

Basically, I'm voting Cynthia. Sirius ignored some points and emphasised others too much.

Edited by kirsche

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Voting Cynthia.

Sirius put every ounce of effort he could into putting emphasis on movement. Just look at what turns up when we quote the first sentence of each paragraph in his second post:

Her offense is nice, I can't deny that but "the MOV difference hardly matters" I must disagree with for more MOV means are more likely chance of action.
Granted, she could stay behind and use the Siege tomes and battle the enemies near your starting positions in this chapter but that's about it.
Except that for Geoffrey, that sure as hell isn't an issue when he actually keeps up with the other Paladins and be able to stuff with less requisites.
Ok, perhaps fielding her over Nephenee and Stefan and possibly Muarim but to place Calill in for Boyd and Tanith and possibly Zihark would remove some good supports of the other likely fielded as well as give you a combat unit with less MOV.
As well as a large map where she'll be outrun by the mounted units and will require rescuing to get far and if not rescued, your other units could probably do way with Ena before she arrives...
I don't see Calill doing much other than Siege tomes in this chapter when she's got one of the lowest MOV numbers.
Only the first 2, this is yet another map where Paladins easily out run your other units and foot units will see little action in this chapter and Calill will once again require rescuing to do much with non Siege tomes.
Again, another huge map where high MOV would be more efficient, Calill's MOV makes her require Rescuing and the best use of her are just those siege tomes and if you're using them consistently enough to make Callil's existence in the chapters worthwhile, you're down to the last Blizzard.
Being dependent on siege tomes to do your best as well as rescuing to move or slowing down other units which is inefficient isn't "a lot".
You're underestimating her low MOV and the only new "competition" for spots against Geoffrey is just Haar, who isn't doubling as much as Geoffrey and his durability is hardly any better.
The supports are just possbility.
Damn, enemies in this game suck.
A bit over leveled considering all the points I mentioned earlier about her MOV not allowing her to do much combat.
The hell?
Remove 2 levels and it's still 26 AS which is doubling everything but 2 SwordMasters and LolAshnard.
Without supports and Forged Silver Lance would be 42.5 ATK and Calill without Geoffrey support would be 36 ATK.

*More enemy stat data*

They limit his attack range radius compared to larger maps yes but not his progress through the chapter.
Assuming she still has those, if you've saved a lot of these uses, for this chapter, you've pretty much nuked some use off her previous chapters.
He'll die against Ashnard if we max his level ups without Knight Ward use like you brought up with the endgame comparison.
She only beats him in offense against Generals and ranged people.
Now for some extra stuff: Why sometimes it be better not to field Calill and why giving her BEXP sucks.
I know healing is less valuable in the lategame, but guess what?
Her low MOV yet again.
There's also Ike.
To summarize: No, Calill's MOV is not something to neglect as it limits how well and often she can apply her stats.

The bolded paragraphs are the ones that don’t make an immediate reference to movement. Though even then, in most cases movement is mentioned the sentence after, if not at some point in said paragraph. That’s just absurd. Hell, if it wasn’t for Sirius’ endgame comparison counter, his post could’ve been construed as saying “high move units > low move units regardless of stats” which is as silly as claiming Yuno > Rutger. I’m of course speaking out of frustration here since these types of posts are very repetitive to read. What matters is how well Cynthia countered this over-saturated point, and IMO she managed well enough to win the debate (I’m not in the mood to elaborate right now).

I’ll finish by saying my decision didn’t come easily. I re-read this debate about 3 times and still don’t feel as certain about my vote as I would like to be.

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Sirius' opener wasn't the best I've seen

Thus why I hate opening. I can't open a debate to save my life.

Are units not killing in chapter 16-17? More importantly, is the chip damage actually worth it? Wouldn't fielding another unit to deal chip damage be better? You made such a fuss about how unit slots are limited and then go giving a unit spot to Ilyana, who has the same mov as Calill after premotion. And this is at a time with units that obviously need training as they can't kill and require others to deal chip damage.

Ilyana getting a spot was because she could use Bolting like Calill as well as Physic. I know it seems (or is) is a double standard but I did give reasons as to why it would be better for others to be fielded over Calill.

6 levels in 5 chapters much? That's 1.2 levels per chapter. I fail to see how this requires tonnes of bexp to achieve.

Same with 12 levels in 9 chapters - that's 1.333 levels per chapter. Again, this is easy to achieve.

Sorry, Sirius, but I don't buy your "Calill is overlevelled" thing.

Seems like you read only half of the debate and that you're using your prior knowledge to judge this as opposed to just judge based on what the debaters brought in. I showed how Calill would pretty much end up falling behind and have trouble seeing enemy phase and minimal player phase mostly dependent on siege tomes. Cynthia didn't do much to counter this other than entitling Calill to BEXP which I found was true but I did argue as to why you wouldn't want to give any to Calill and she didn't prove that wrong.

Laguz? Bonus damage = win. Cynthia mentionedis th, yet you failed to come up with responses save ignoring it. Ignoring stuff = bad.

There's other stuff, but this is getting tl;dr.

Basically, I'm voting Cynthia. Sirius ignored some points and emphasised others too much.

My response to that was pretty much the oversaturated point of MOV. Her bonus damage won't be applied that much with non-siege tomes if other units kill the enemy before she can attack it. I didn't ignore anything, I just didn't quote it because I conceded those points... you want to read "I concede this/good point" and the quoted statements several times and to have the page streched more than it already is?

The bolded paragraphs are the ones that don't make an immediate reference to movement. Though even then, in most cases movement is mentioned the sentence after, if not at some point in said paragraph. That's just absurd. Hell, if it wasn't for Sirius' endgame comparison counter, his post could've been construed as saying "high move units > low move units regardless of stats" which is as silly as claiming Yuno > Rutger. I'm of course speaking out of frustration here since these types of posts are very repetitive to read. What matters is how well Cynthia countered this over-saturated point, and IMO she managed well enough to win the debate (I'm not in the mood to elaborate right now).

I'll finish by saying my decision didn't come easily. I re-read this debate about 3 times and still don't feel as certain about my vote as I would like to be.

Movement and durability are pretty much all you can argue with Geoffrey as well as his offense not being as bad as she made it out to be. The team I brought up was actually more helpful for her since you had more Paladins available for rescuing so she could actually see a good dose of enemy phase and non-siege tome player phase but she thought otherwise and brought up a different team.

@Bold: Please do. All I notice out of that is that Calill is superior on offence but I didn't see much argument as to how Calill would actually see enough application of her stats to top how much Geoffrey can apply his.

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Ilyana getting a spot was because she could use Bolting like Calill as well as Physic. I know it seems (or is) is a double standard but I did give reasons as to why it would be better for others to be fielded over Calill.

@Bold: And these reasons don't apply to Ilyana? Some elaboration would be better and would help you win the point, but you didn't so all that was left was this double standard. You never mentioned stuff like "Ilyana can also use physics to help meaning she deserves that unit slot" which means I can't count it as existing as that would be "Using my prior knowledge" which you critisized me doing later in your post.

Seems like you read only half of the debate and that you're using your prior knowledge to judge this as opposed to just judge based on what the debaters brought in. I showed how Calill would pretty much end up falling behind and have trouble seeing enemy phase and minimal player phase mostly dependent on siege tomes. Cynthia didn't do much to counter this other than entitling Calill to BEXP which I found was true but I did argue as to why you wouldn't want to give any to Calill and she didn't prove that wrong.

@Bold: If you re-read the debate, you should find Cynthia mentioning the "Just over 1 level per chapter" bit. That whole 1.2 levels per chapter bit was just to help show just how small it is and that it needs justifying like Cynthia said it did. I found the whole "No enemy phase" thing a tad exaggerated and unconvincing. Heck, you should still justify why this "Minimal player phase" added to the bexp which Cynthia showed how Calill deserves some effectively doesn't equate to 1.2 levels per chapter.

Clarity would have helped a vast majority of your points.

My response to that was pretty much the oversaturated point of MOV. Her bonus damage won't be applied that much with non-siege tomes if other units kill the enemy before she can attack it. I didn't ignore anything, I just didn't quote it because I conceded those points... you want to read "I concede this/good point" and the quoted statements several times and to have the page streched more than it already is?

@Bold: Yes, it makes things much easier to referance. You certainly didn't leave out the whole "I concede the supports" thing (Which was rather disappointing since you actually had a case as not only does Elincia have poor Atk - meaning that the attack benefits her a lot - Amiti means that the support gives her essentially +4 damage, which isn't bad in any case.)

@underlined: And you didn't state this because..? It's a pretty major point and would've helped to emphasise just how her low mov affects her performance.

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@Bold: And these reasons don't apply to Ilyana? Some elaboration would be better and would help you win the point, but you didn't so all that was left was this double standard. You never mentioned stuff like "Ilyana can also use physics to help meaning she deserves that unit slot" which means I can't count it as existing as that would be "Using my prior knowledge" which you critisized me doing later in your post.

They do, Ilyana however has Physic use so that's one more reason to field her over Calill and I did sort of imply this:

One of the other Sages could be fielded for both Physic staff use, supports and Siege tome. Granted, Calill would do the better damage with the Siege tomes but she's not doing much else.
Calill is mostly just mostly attacking with Siege tomes (assuming she still has them) and other sages can use Siege tomes too as well as provide healing for those are actually doing combat.

The other Sages obviously being Ilyana or Soren since Bastian can't use Physic. But yeah the whole "prior knowledge" comment I brought up sort of killed this but that was referring more to knowledge you gathered through personal experience and not knowledge you can gather on serenesforest.net

@Bold: If you re-read the debate, you should find Cynthia mentioning the "Just over 1 level per chapter" bit. That whole 1.2 levels per chapter bit was just to help show just how small it is and that it needs justifying like Cynthia said it did. I found the whole "No enemy phase" thing a tad exaggerated and unconvincing. Heck, you should still justify why this "Minimal player phase" added to the bexp which Cynthia showed how Calill deserves some effectively doesn't equate to 1.2 levels per chapter.

@First bold: Oh I know she mentioned it but did she prove it?

@Second bold:

Her low MOV yet again. When you use BEXP, you want it to go to good use and how does that happen? The unit getting the BEXP is actually seeing combat. Calill isn't with all the Paladins running around and her concrete durability and MOV stops her from doing much enemy phase action and is therefore stuck to siege tomes and minimal player phase. No really, why not give the BEXP to people who are more easily seeing enemy phase?

@Bold: Yes, it makes things much easier to referance. You certainly didn't leave out the whole "I concede the supports" thing (Which was rather disappointing since you actually had a case as not only does Elincia have poor Atk - meaning that the attack benefits her a lot - Amiti means that the support gives her essentially +4 damage, which isn't bad in any case.)

@underlined: And you didn't state this because..? It's a pretty major point and would've helped to emphasise just how her low mov affects her performance.

@Bold: I remember reading some1 being scolded for quoting statements they're not countering. It think it may have had something to do with "debating etiquitte" so I wanted to avoid that. What you call a case there, I call a self-destruction bomb. That argument wouldn't be difficult for Cynthia to counter and it may have led to yet another double standard like "Holy shit you're denying Nephenee and Tormod support but you're bringing up Elincia support when she's even less likely to be fielded? Bit of a double standard methinks" as well as give her an opportunity to add another positive to Calill. If debates had a scoring system using numbers, this would be like me trying to score a +0.2 and then ending up with a -1 or -2 because Cynthia would debunk that (bringing it down to 0), throw in a posititve for Calill (down to -1) and passing it as a double standard (down to -2). Not worth the risk IMO... I'll argue about supports when I'm at least almost certain that there is no issue in doing so.

Also, I don't see why you'd automatically asssume that I ignored all those points (when it could be ignored OR conceded) you say I did when...

As for C25, I actually thought at first that Calill would have a ridiculous win there but that's not exactly true.

Was in response to:

I also want to point out that my comparison with Geoffrey in Ch25 was ignored, if Geoffrey doesn't beat Calill until Endgame, Calill wins nine chapters to Geoffrey's one.

I implied that I basically conceded that point so I didn't bother countering it (her persistance prompted me to look again and I actually found an argument >_>), that should tell you that any point I might've ignored was simply because I couldn't/didn't find it beneficial to counter.

@underline: Um... because for the most part I basically argued that with her regular damage so why wouldn't that apply for the bonus? Cynthia had to show that Calill could actually apply that bonus even though she has trouble applying regular damage. That was basically adding another positive to her offense and her offense was acknowledge throughout the debate but the issue is how often she can apply it -___-

Edited by Sirius

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@First bold: Oh I know she mentioned it but did she prove it?
Knowledge you gathered through personal experience

Using this, she wouldn't have to prove it, as I know from personal experience that 1.2 levels per chapter isn't hard.

She doesn't have to prove it, you have to disprove it, and quite frankly, saying Calill see too little a player phase to get a single level of experience is exaggerating by a whole lot. There's a reason why she isn't in bottom tier, and that's because she does face enemies. My point is that you were exaggerating the extent of her problems too much to be realistic. If you're going to exaggerate, at least give reasonable evidence for said exaggeration.

And this applies to the majority of my points here, including the whole physic thing as you said Calill "doesn't do much else" aside from seige tomeing and that "Calill is mostly attacking with seige tomes."

@Second bold:
entitling Calill to BEXP which I found was true

I also found it true and believed it to prove that Calill is entitled to some bexp. Cynthia mentioned how we'd want to give bexp to a unit we'd use, which is true, and guess what? We're using Calill.

What you call a case there, I call a self-destruction bomb. That argument wouldn't be difficult for Cynthia to counter and it may have led to yet another double standard like "Holy shit you're denying Nephenee and Tormod support but you're bringing up Elincia support when she's even less likely to be fielded? Bit of a double standard methinks" as well as give her an opportunity to add another positive to Calill. If debates had a scoring system using numbers, this would be like me trying to score a +0.2 and then ending up with a -1 or -2 because Cynthia would debunk that (bringing it down to 0), throw in a posititve for Calill (down to -1) and passing it as a double standard (down to -2). Not worth the risk IMO... I'll argue about supports when I'm at least almost certain that there is no issue in doing so.

Nephenee and Tormod have options (Namely Brom and Devdan for Nephenee, Tormod has Sothe/Devdan/Reyson.) Which occur sooner and can arguably provide better bonuses (In Brom's case). Or you could have just shown why they don't really benefit from the Atk and avo as Elincia does the Atk. You weren't forced into denying the Nephenee and Tormod support, you know. ;)

Cynthia had to show that Calill could actually apply that bonus even though she has trouble applying regular damage.

This ties in with all the counters Cynthia made about what you said about movement.

Anyway, I overlooked a small error in Cynthia's post:

On all Arrive maps, we can only clear the chapter when Ike lands on the Arrive square.

That's only on seize maps (That includes chapters 21, 23, 26, 27 and 28), on arrive maps, any unit can just arrive, meaning that high-mov units help clear the chapter faster, this only applies to chapter 20 and 24, though, so it's a very minor point.

Edited by kirsche

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Not to have a debate within a debate, but thought I would add in my $0.02

@Bold: Please do. All I notice out of that is that Calill is superior on offence but I didn't see much argument as to how Calill would actually see enough application of her stats to top how much Geoffrey can apply his.

I gave a lot of ways Calill can compensate for her lower Mov.

1. Shoving

2. Rescuing

3. Siege tomes

4. Probably not deploying enough mounted units to kill everything

5. Killing reinforcements

6. Victory conditions

7. Terrain/enemies slowing down Paladins

Whether the judges found these convincing or not is up to them, but I definitely didn't ignore it.

Whether my level estimations were accurate/inaccurate depends on how the judges interpreted the "Calill cannot see any combat due to low Mov" argument, but if they sided with me in agreeing that she should see some combat, a little over a level a chapter is pretty reasonable(standard considering she is neiher overleveled or underleveled).

On the issue of supports, there are basically two ways to counter a support IMO:

1. Said support option is unlikely to be fielded.

2. Said support option will already have their slots filled.

1 would apply for Elincia, and possibly Tormod had I included him. It doesn't work so well for Nephenee, because she's pretty awesome. You could have tried to argue 2 with Nephenee, though assuming Brom and Devdan both in play is a little much, and Calill gives better bonuses than Devdan anyway.

Edited by -Cynthia-

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@Bold: Please do. All I notice out of that is that Calill is superior on offence but I didn't see much argument as to how Calill would actually see enough application of her stats to top how much Geoffrey can apply his.

Remember this isnt about who is actually the better character, its who made the more convincing argument. Like I said earlier, your emphasis on movement was extravagant, Id go as far as saying it hurt your overall argument. Take this point for example:

By chapter 20, if we have a team like so...

1) Ike

2) Titania

3) Astrid

4) Makalov

5) Oscar

6) Kieran

7) Marcia

8) Jill

9) Mist

10) Reyson

You basically just assumed that the team in play was nothing but mounts. Then you followed that up with this:

Hmm, that's 10 spots already. Here's a couple of options for the other spots:

Boyd

Tanith

Zihark

Muarim

Nephene

Stefan

Out of the characters you named, you basically chose the 16 highest units on the current tier list. Were not debating under the premise of perfect playthroughs, but rather being better = more likely to be used. So from where Im standing, this looks like an obvious attempt to sandbag the worth of Calills availability.

Cynthias reply was this:

My point is that teams are very varied, and to assume we have a team of all 9 Mov units (except Ike of course) on every playthrough is ridiculous. Odds are we aren't using all of them, and as such Callil is generally keeping pace with most of your units.

There might be some degree of exaggeration here, but its definitely more realistic than assuming a flier + paladin only team just so that Calill (and others like her) cant ever keep up if we dont ferry them.

Jump to your reply:

I didn't exactly say it's the team we're ALWAYS going to use, I just showed one where Calill isn't doing much in and even if it's just a few Paladins, those guys can still move ahead, wreak havoc and basically deprive your units of some CEXP. The catch being that it's more efficient since you obviously take less turns and effort doing chapters with Paladins as opposed to doing chapters without them.

Basically, youre advocating for paladins to hurt the CEXP gain of other units, which obviously isnt a helpful argument towards your case. You immediately said it was more efficient to do this, but then youre beginning to exaggerate how much a handful of paladins can do on their own, particularly if unsupported.

If were in say, a rout map, its important to have your units spread out in as many places as possible to beat the map efficiently. However, if you hurt the development of your foot soldiers by a significant margin, then theyll be taking longer to clear a group of enemies they were assigned to dispatch. So in the end, its pretty arguable whether unleashing paladins in a foot soldier-heavy team is actually beneficial in the long run.

Now Cynthia didnt say anything to that effect IIRC so I cant really hold that specific exaggeration against Sirius.

Lets see what she did in fact say:

Not necessarily, let's look at victory conditions:

Ch20: Arrive

Ch21: Arrive

Ch22: Kill Boss

Ch23: Arrive

Ch24: Arrive

Ch25: Rout

Ch26: Rout

Ch27: Arrive

Ch28: Arrive

Endgame: Kill Boss

On all Arrive maps, we can only clear the chapter when Ike lands on the Arrive square. So we can have Ike and a band of foot units move in a group to reach the square, or we could rush mounted units ahead and wait for Ike to catch up. Both take about the same amount of time. Now we could Rescue Ike, but then we essentially lose 2 combat units, which isn't good.

In reality, we could rescue + drop Ike on the same turn to have him get ferried without hurting combat efficiency. Other than that, this is definitely a solid point for mitigating the advantage of paladin movement. Whats the point of having units rush ahead if it wont ultimately complete the seize goal any faster?

Of course, that was the final post so you werent able to counter, so I cant give that much weight either.

At any rate, that should hopefully get my point across: Cynthia appeared to exaggerate a lot less, which made for more persuasive counters.

@Kirsche: You might want to re-read this, there isnt any real reason to have a debate within a debate like this.

Dont let your own opinions mix with what you read. Judge what each person has to say on each point, not what you think of what they say. Someone could say Marcia wins Res by a huge amount, and that matters more than Broms Def lead since physical enemies dont really impact either of them that much and it could seem totally ridiculous to you, but if the opponent in that debate cant counter or counters it unsatisfactorily, or counters it without any evidence, the first poster easily wins.

I dont mean any disrespect, its just I sort of agreed with Sirius when he said:

Seems like you read only half of the debate and that you're using your prior knowledge to judge this as opposed to just judge based on what the debaters brought in.

Take this statement for instance:

Stuff about Calill being overlevelled

6 levels in 5 chapters much? That's 1.2 levels per chapter. I fail to see how this requires tonnes of bexp to achieve.

Same with 12 levels in 9 chapters - that's 1.333 levels per chapter. Again, this is easy to achieve.

Sorry, Sirius, but I don't buy your "Calill is overlevelled" thing.

Unless Sirius said this in his closer (Cynthia closed so that isnt the case), then it is up to Cynthia to point out the exaggerations, not the judges themselves. Otherwise it would be impossible for anyone to win with a mis-match (eg/ the recent Renning vs Elincia debate) as the whole process of debating wouldnt have any effect on the decided outcome.

Ill admit its very difficult to judge a debate objectively. I might have very well contradicted what I just said a little based on my elaboration about one of Sirius movement points. Still, it cant hurt to be reminded of how fair judging is supposed to work.

Edited by Vykan12

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Guess I should've made my posts smaller to cut down on the movement emphasis. I'm done arguing with Kirsche, I could bring up more arguments against his complaints but fuck it.

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Well,I guess I'm a judge now,I hope I don't screw up...

Anyway,I'm voting Cynthia.

She showed that Calill is pretty durable as it is due to avoid,and Sirius spent too much time on movement advantages.Overall,it was pretty close I would say though.

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1 would apply for Elincia, and possibly Tormod had I included him. It doesn't work so well for Nephenee, because she's pretty awesome. You could have tried to argue 2 with Nephenee

You could make a case for her being the best healer lategame and likely to be played. Tormod has nothing special like that, and I mentioned Neph has options.

@Vykan: No worries.

there isn’t any real reason to have a debate within a debate like this.

I can see where Sirius was coming from, if someone votes against me and I fail to understand said reaoning or said reasoning seems absurd to me, I'd want elaboration on it.

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I'm voting for the Q to the T to the B to the F Cynthia.

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