Fire Emblem Tier List

[dondon151]

Actually no, you will really want that Silver Card no matter what.

Actually no, you don't really need the Silver Card unless you're planning on using a certain few super expensive units.

In my 0% growths run, I was unable to steal the Silver Card, yet by selling all the stuff I didn't need (Secret Books, Goddess Icons, unused promo items, gems), I had almost 70000 G left after shopping for a lifetime's supply of killers and silvers in 31x.

And I recruited Farina.

Cash is in fact limited for a lot of earlygame, so properly equipping yourself can be a pain during a few chapters. Or if you do actually have existent cash, abusing that Silver Card to get those Killing weapons or reavers is in fact an extremely valuable asset.

You don't need that many killers or reavers. Killers are only good for scoring those KOs that you can't normally score, which is a small portion of enemies.

My first gripe with tier lists about FE7 in general is that supports are way too assumed. As I'm sure vykan and dondon can attest, supports simply don't build that quickly, and may even be inefficient to build if they're ass slow and utility/movement isn't matching up.

Yes. In addition to those supports that you listed:

PentxHawkeye

LouisexHawkeye

IsadoraxHarken

IsadoraxMarcus

LowenxMarcus

are all fairly fast. Stuff that seems intuitive like HectorxOswin are surprisingly slow.

Karla is still worse than Nino.

Nino you get to field for 1.1 chapters without taking up a unit slot, and then she gets to do the whole "I'm not taking counters lulz!" for cheap damage.

I agree with you to an extent, but you're not considering just how bad Nino is. She's literally negative utility in almost every map that she can participate in.

Chapter 28: she can't do anything but take potshots at physical enemies.

Chapter 28x: being grounded and unpromoted makes her vulnerable to enemy fliers. Her movement range is also limited by ballistae and siege magic, not to mention that she's basically an underleveled archer and levels up like one.

Chapter 29: enemies are magic users, so hitting res is bad.

Chapter 30: 1 unit slot.

Chapter 31: Does Nino do well against druids, snipers, or generals? I don't think so.

Chapter 31x: Nino doesn't fly.

Karla takes up a Hero's Crest that I should have used on Raven/Guy (Dorcas gets the first due to level lead, and pretty much outclasses Bartre).

This assumption is wrong. Dorcas only gets the first if he's going to be played after promotion.

[Dat Nick]

Chapter 28: she can't do anything but take potshots at physical enemies.

Chapter 28x: being grounded and unpromoted makes her vulnerable to enemy fliers. Her movement range is also limited by ballistae and siege magic, not to mention that she's basically an underleveled archer and levels up like one.

Chapter 29: enemies are magic users, so hitting res is bad.

Chapter 30: 1 unit slot.

Chapter 31: Does Nino do well against druids, snipers, or generals? I don't think so.

Chapter 31x: Nino doesn't fly.

None of this takes into account Nino's 10/1 staff utility.

[dondon151]

Dorcas is easily high tier. About the same level as Eliwood in my opinion.

Dorcas is one of the few units in this game that has doubling trouble. Don't even count on Dorcas surpassing Marcus in speed.

He has some of the best offense in the entire game against the most common enemy units (slow lance wielders) and a little more. Dorcas is in fact one of your best units against Heros and Swordmasters too, raping them MASSIVELY with the swordreaver.

Slow lance wielders, like armors, which aren't as common as you say. Steel Lance WKs in chapter 28x have 7-9 AS, with most having 8. Dorcas needs to be 20/14 on average, which is almost infeasible. Dorcas in fact does not rape many enemies in this game.

Against heroes and SMs, Dorcas gets doubled. In addition, his base avo at 20/4 is something terrible like 31. Against the level 1 heroes in chapter 24, Dorcas is doubled with almost 50 hit. Saying that Dorcas is "one of your best units" against heroes and SMs is ignoring the plethora of other axe users that have both superior avo and don't get doubled.

He is able to 2hit almost everything in this game (or 1hit anything that is wussy), meaning he's wtfamazing with the Brave Axe too.

You know who's awesome with the Brave Axe? Hawkeye. Because he's more durable and has a crit bonus. Being reliant on the Brave Axe is a negative anyway, and Dorcas does have competition for it.

Also, I believe it is Sands of Time. Mass Generals lol. Throw him out there and it's like "zomg where did all the Generals go?"

You know who's awesome at raping those generals? Hawk- oh wait, I did that already.

Dorcas needs ~41 atk to ORKO the average level 5-6 general. With a Steel Axe, it's hopeless. With a Silver Axe, Dorcas needs to be at 20/14 on average, which is a giant overestimate. This is ignoring his supports, but at best he gets +1 atk from Geitz.

With a Hammer, so many other characters can reach the ORKO. Dart gets it at 20/2. Bartre gets it at 20/5. Hawkeye gets it at 20/11-12. Harken has it at base. But Dorcas doesn't get crit bonuses to facilitate ORKOs with weaker weapons, unlike Hawkeye or Dart. Actually, even like a base Vaida can borderline ORKO these chumps with a Heavy Spear (22 str + 18 MT = 40 atk), but you don't see that moving her up the tier lists (though I suppose it could move her up by like 1 spot).

Either way, this one chapter of performance does not make up for Dorcas's failure elsewhere.

[A2ZOMG]

I agree with you to an extent, but you're not considering just how bad Nino is. She's literally negative utility in almost every map that she can participate in.

Chapter 28: she can't do anything but take potshots at physical enemies.

Chapter 28x: being grounded and unpromoted makes her vulnerable to enemy fliers. Her movement range is also limited by ballistae and siege magic, not to mention that she's basically an underleveled archer and levels up like one.

K? Well in Chapter 28, you only proved that she can in fact be used for something. So that automatically means she has a use, while Karla still doesn't have any uses.

Chapter 28x? Rescue her with Hector when necessary. If you're playing normally and trying to build other units exp before his promotion, this also works in your favor since it decreases the chance he doubles.

This assumption is wrong. Dorcas only gets the first if he's going to be played after promotion.

Given how awesome Dorcas is, it's a pretty valid proposition.

And then I could use the same argument that you can't recruit Karla anyway since that only happens if Bartre is used after promotion.

You could probably try to argue something about chapter 28x, but still Nino can be used in ch 28 without any real detriment, while Karla stops Dorcas/Raven/Guy from promoting which sucks a lot.

And the chapter you recruit her, she's useless. It's Battle Preparations. And then fielding her after that means she takes up a unit slot in place of someone who would be significantly more durable and stronger.

Edited July 3, 2009 by A2ZOMG

[dondon151]

None of this takes into account Nino's 10/1 staff utility.

You have 3-4 Guiding Rings, route depending. Here's who might want them before Nino: Erk, Lucius, Serra, Priscilla, Canas.

All of them are very likely candidates, so Nino has tough competition. In addition, any of those can have 10/1 staff utility long before Nino does. If Nino uses an Earth Seal, that's 10k down the drain for staff utility.

Let's not forget Pent as well. We're promoting Nino and getting something like a gimped Renault with more availability and shittier staff rank. At least stuff like 10/1 Priscilla doesn't have to put herself in significant danger to heal, since she has the staff rank for Physic.

K? Well in Chapter 28, you only proved that she can in fact be used for something. So that automatically means she has a use, while Karla still doesn't have any uses.

Her use is totally superfluous and has a positive utility of magnitude slightly greater than 0. Awesome.

Chapter 28x? Rescue her with Hector when necessary. If you're playing normally and trying to build other units exp before his promotion, this also works in your favor since it decreases the chance he doubles.

Huh? Hector is locked to 20/0. If he rescues her, he might get doubled with his 5-6 AS. Nino makes herself a liability whether or not she is visible on the map. If Nino is rescued, she can't gain EXP as well.

Given how awesome Dorcas is, it's a pretty valid proposition.

No, he's not past midgame, because you didn't read my post. Furthermore, you can't assume that promotion items will be used on other characters. The principle is that a promotion item is only assumed on the characters being debated.

And then I could use the same argument that you can't recruit Karla anyway since that only happens if Bartre is used after promotion.

Except when you recruit Karla, you're assumed to recruit Karla so Bartre has to be used.

You could probably try to argue something about chapter 28x, but still Nino can be used in ch 28 without any real detriment, while Karla stops Dorcas/Raven/Guy from promoting which sucks a lot.

You get 3-4 Hero Crests, route depending, so promoting Bartre may actually have no consequences as opposed to Nino who is guaranteed to face competition for a Guiding Ring. Furthermore, Dorcas sucks after promotion only very slightly less than he does before promotion because of +0 speed.

Nino is present for like 8 turns of chapter 28, then she has to scoot her ass over to the west where the action is, then she has to make sure she doesn't get hit behind the frontlines by an archer/sniper.

And the chapter you recruit her, she's useless. It's Battle Preparations. And then fielding her after that means she takes up a unit slot in place of someone who would be significantly more durable and stronger.

Right, how is this necessarily different from Nino, who's been worse for longer? Opportunity costs of deployment shouldn't be taken into consideration anyway.

By the way, I never disagreed that Nino > Karla, but a case can certainly be made for the converse.

Edited July 3, 2009 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

All of them are very likely candidates, so Nino has tough competition. In addition, any of those can have 10/1 staff utility long before Nino does. If Nino uses an Earth Seal, that's 10k down the drain for staff utility.

We got that seal for free. Efficency, remember.

Let's not forget Pent as well. We're promoting Nino and getting something like a gimped Renault with more availability and shittier staff rank. At least stuff like 10/1 Priscilla doesn't have to put herself in significant danger to heal, since she has the staff rank for Physic.

I don't see Karla able to heal at all.

Huh? Hector is locked to 20/0.

Again, efficiency, i.e we don't care about levelling up a bunch of characters we don't plan to use for no good reason, so I don't see the need to get your panties in a bunch if Hector gets a few kills despite being capped out.

Except when you recruit Karla, you're assumed to recruit Karla so Bartre has to be used.

This does not erase all the suck Barte brings to the team before Karla comes in.

[Colonel M]

I'd say Dorcas is fine where he is. He has to pass Geitz who's not requiring a seal, good weapon ranks, and actually has decent chance of doubling.

[dondon151]

We got that seal for free. Efficency, remember.

And you can sell it for 10k. Efficiency, remember. I don't see how 1 extra healer with the 3 or 4 you have already helps your efficiency at all.

I don't see Karla able to heal at all.

I don't see Nino able to try and frontline, and in fact I question Nino's ability to heal well because she has to get very up close to heal HP.

In chapter 29, which is the earliest that she's getting 10/1, all enemies have 2-range, so she's never safe.

Chapter 30, no.

Chapter 31, snipers and druids have 2 range, and some generals have Spears, so Nino's never totally safe.

Chapter 32, sure.

Chapter 32x, no 1 range healing here.

Again, efficiency, i.e we don't care about levelling up a bunch of characters we don't plan to use for no good reason, so I don't see the need to get your panties in a bunch if Hector gets a few kills despite being capped out.

I'm not. You didn't understand what I was talking about. Hector can't be promoted, so his AS puts him in being doubled range if he rescues. Your comment is more directed at A2ZOMG, who's implying that Hector shouldn't be used at 20/20 (?).

This does not erase all the suck Barte brings to the team before Karla comes in.

I'm pretty sure Bartre shouldn't be in this equation, but whatever the case, he only needs to be 10/5 to survive Karla, so he's not taking as much as one thinks.

Edited July 3, 2009 by dondon151

[Mekkah]

You people whine about Bartre's suckitude too much. He is Dorcas without the earlygame utility and level lead, but he boasts just as many high level axes and massive concrete durability as Dorcas does. And he might actually be able to get that support with Dorcas in.

Karla takes up a Hero's Crest that I should have used on Raven/Guy (Dorcas gets the first due to level lead, and pretty much outclasses Bartre).

Bartre can take the latest Hero Crest you get, and as long as he gets to 10/5, you can recruit Karla. Bartre himself is a much better unit than Nino, for example. Bartre sucks early on, but around ~Ch17, he at least has durability + WTA over lances, and he got out of being doubled by anything but bosses and fast swordies, so I'd say he starts racking up some positive utility there, whereas Nino is never anything but a failure.

Nino's 10/1 healing is a joke. We're talking about 10-11 magic and an E in staves, and 25 hp/8 def to shield all the time. I'd rather have my units use Vulneraries/Elixirs or retreat them from harm's way than healing them with Nino.

PentxHawkeye

LouisexHawkeye

IsadoraxHarken

IsadoraxMarcus

LowenxMarcus

Hm, yeah, I guess. I made up a tier list trying to ignore supports the other day...but perhaps it might be more accurate to make a list of supports that do not decrease flexibility, and draw the line below that. Pretty much ignoring every other thing. I don't get how people can argue that a support like Sain x Serra matters anymore. You try sticking those together for 40 turns just to get 5 more crit.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Mekkah

[soundecho]

About Dorcas. Dorcas may be one of the units that doesn't double in this game, but he easily OHKOs those unpromoted scrubs lategame~ which comprise of like 80% of the map.

[Mekkah]

That kind of depends on enemy type, his own level and weapon. 20/11 Dorcas has 24.1 str and 11-12 AS.

Iron Axe: 32 atk

Hand Axe: 31 atk

Steel/Killer: 35 atk

Silver: 39 atk

Hammer/Halberd: 44 atk (on mounts)

He'll get most enemies that use Steel. Sort of shaky on Wyvern Riders (don't give me bull about building up that E bow rank, please)...they have 11-12 Spd, so they need to lose 4 AS for Dorcas to double, and in VoD they use Killer Lance/Axereaver/Horseslayer. To be honest, the majority of VoD enemies are promoted. Dorcas falls short on things that don't weigh themselves down here...he likely gets Bishops/Sages/Devil Axe Warrior, but not Wyvern Lords, Snipers, other Warriors, Nomad Troopers (they might be too fast for most people though), Heroes, SM, etc etc.

[Dat Nick]

but he boasts just as many high level axes and massive concrete durability as Dorcas does. And he might actually be able to get that support with Dorcas in.

When was getting doubled good concrete durability?

Bartre can take the latest Hero Crest you get, and as long as he gets to 10/5, you can recruit Karla. Bartre himself is a much better unit than Nino, for example. Bartre sucks early on, but around ~Ch17, he at least has durability + WTA over lances, and he got out of being doubled by anything but bosses and fast swordies, so I'd say he starts racking up some positive utility there, whereas Nino is never anything but a failure.

...10/1 Barte has 6 AS. You realize how bad that is?

[Mekkah]

When was getting doubled good concrete durability?

Bartre only needs 1-2 Spd level-ups from his 40% growth to stop getting doubled by most things. Something like a Steel Sword Cavalier from Whereabouts Unknown only has 6-8 AS, which isn't even guaranteed to double base level Bartre. By the time we hit Crazed Beast, enemy Spd has grown by about as much as it dropped - Cavaliers now have 8-10 Spd, but they also lose 4 spd from Steel Lances. Again, only bosses and fast swordies (the latter have shit atk) will double Bartre, and he has a large HP buffer for that. To give you an idea, 10/0 Bartre has 36 hp/6-7 def and 6 AS. The only things in Ch25 that double him are the Warrior and Paladin bosses, 2 out of the initial 27 enemies, and that's not counting reinforcements (none of those double him).

...10/1 Barte has 6 AS. You realize how bad that is?

Do you realize how bad enemy AS is? Do you realize base Nino's 10 AS with Fire isn't anything more impressive (it still doesn't double anything), and that Bartre has double Nino's hp/def?

[Raven]

Wow, considering all that's been said since I last looked here, it will take a while to read up and consider the valid points to edit the tier list. I'll have it done when I have a bit more time on my hands.

Also again, please note that I only sorted them into tiers, I did not actually sort the units within the tiers, if you understand what I mean.

[Colonel M]

Just a question: how is 10/1 Bartre surviving a Karla assualt?

[dondon151]

Swordreaver + Iron Rune.

Base Karla has 20 atk (WTA factored). Bartre can survive a round of combat at 5/0 on average.

[Colonel M]

Ngh, forgot about the Iron Rune at least. That helps answer my question.

[Mekkah]

dondon, would it be easy for you to do estimated turn counts for every chapter for an efficiency playthrough? You could probably just take any your A tactics runs (you have 2, right?) and add 1-3 turns for every chapter that can be longer (read: not defend maps) and have a pretty good estimate of what's reasonable. This helps for determining supports, as well as giving chapters appropiate weight.

If you don't feel like doing it just say so.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Mekkah

[Dat Nick]

Bartre only needs 1-2 Spd level-ups from his 40% growth to stop getting doubled by most things. Something like a Steel Sword Cavalier from Whereabouts Unknown only has 6-8 AS, which isn't even guaranteed to double base level Bartre. By the time we hit Crazed Beast, enemy Spd has grown by about as much as it dropped - Cavaliers now have 8-10 Spd, but they also lose 4 spd from Steel Lances. Again, only bosses and fast swordies (the latter have shit atk) will double Bartre, and he has a large HP buffer for that. To give you an idea, 10/0 Bartre has 36 hp/6-7 def and 6 AS. The only things in Ch25 that double him are the Warrior and Paladin bosses, 2 out of the initial 27 enemies, and that's not counting reinforcements (none of those double him).

Jesus christ, I hate this game.

[dondon151]

dondon, would it be easy for you to do estimated turn counts for every chapter for an efficiency playthrough? You could probably just take any your A tactics runs (you have 2, right?) and add 1-3 turns for every chapter that can be longer (read: not defend maps) and have a pretty good estimate of what's reasonable. This helps for determining supports, as well as giving chapters appropiate weight.

I'll use my old HHM log.

11:   8-10 turns  17x:  5	turns  23x: 10-16 turns  28x: 18-21 turns
12:   6-9  turns  18:  11	turns  24G: 16-19 turns  29:  14-19 turns
13:  10-12 turns  19:   9-11 turns  24W: no clue...   30:  10-12 turns
13x:  7	turns  19x:  9-11 turns  25:   7- 9 turns  31:  11	turns
14:   9-10 turns  20:  11-15 turns  26:  11	turns  31x:  5	turns
15:   7	turns  21:   6- 8 turns  27J: 18-20 turns  32:  no clue...
16:   9-12 turns  22:  11	turns  27K: 13-15 turns  32x:  9-11 turns
17:  12-14 turns  23:   9-10 turns  28:  15	turns  F:	7-10 turns

This good? I've never played 24W and I've never tried doing 32 without using Warp a few times. I've also never done 17x without doing it as fast as possible with Florina.

Edited July 4, 2009 by dondon151

[Mekkah]

Okay, now look for what I mean when I say a support like Serra x Sain does not matter.

The game up to FFO lasts ~165 turns, take or give. Sain x Serra starts at 17 (they start too far seperated in 16), so in reality there's only ~103 turns for them. For them to have a C at this point, they would have to be put together about 40% of their playtime. That might not look like much, but consider that in the meantime, Serra has to be next to Lucius for maybe even about 50% for a C (that support starts later), and Kent/Sain need about 70% to have an A, or even ~40% for a B. And then if you want them to triangle with Fiora, they cannot even both be next to each other and Fiora (physically impossible), and Fiora requires 40% of this time for a C Sain, and 27% for C Kent.

[Florete]

It needs to get ordered eventually, so here's my three cents.

-Top-

Ninian/Nils

Marcus

Raven

Matthew

I'd drop Matt to High for unranked. Silver Card is awesome, but not as awesome anymore.

Ninian/Nils I'd put either at bottom of Top or top of High.

Raven vs. Marcus is tough. I'd personally give the edge to Raven, though.

Guy, Priscilla, and Serra could probably jump to Top. My ideal way of seeing Top would be:

Raven

Guy

Marcus

Priscilla

Serra

*Ninian/Nils*

-High-

Guy

Priscilla

Serra

Sain

Kent

Oswin

Harken

Eliwood

Pent

Those three at the top I already covered.

Lowen should be up with Kent and Sain. It's usually Sain > Lowen > Kent, but I could see Kent > Lowen.

The rest looks good enough as is for now.

-Upper Mid-

Hector

Dart

Florina

Lowen

Jaffar

Lucius

Erk

Geitz

Dorcas

Hawkeye

Legault

Lyn

Dart needs to drop a tier. Funds is no longer lowering him, but his start is less than desirable. 8 Spd, Axes (heavy), and 10 Con isn't good on The Dread Isle.

Erk should be in High or Top of Upper Mid most likely. Well, maybe. I need to look further into Erk.

Legault can probably boost himself above Lucius or Jaffar. If Matt wasn't used extensively, he's highly valuable to have.

-Lower Mid-

Isadora

Fiora

Bartre

Rath

Vaida

Rebecca

Heath

Canas

Farina

Karel

Renault

Wallace

Fiora can probably jump to bottom of Upper Mid. Flier utility is generally pretty handy in this game, and a triangle with kent and Sain helps. Canas, Farina, and Karel all need to jump to right under Isadora, and Rebecca, Vaida, Renault, and Wallace all need to drop a tier, maybe two for Wallace. In fact, I think I'd argue even Nino > Wallace.

-Low-

Louise

Athos

Karla

Wil

Athos should go near the top of Lower Mid. He doesn't have to go through any bad times like most of them up there.

Karla and possibly Wil should drop to Bottom.

I probably should've given more reasoning with my suggestions, but this is just ordering the list for now, so...

[Dat Nick]

Raven vs. Marcus is tough. I'd personally give the edge to Raven, though.

I thought Marcus as the best character in the game is pretty much undisputed?

[dondon151]

Raven vs. Marcus is tough. I'd personally give the edge to Raven, though.

Guy, Priscilla, and Serra could probably jump to Top. My ideal way of seeing Top would be:

I disagree with both Raven and Guy above Marcus. Marcus has availability on Raven and 1-2 range on Guy, in addition to move and offense for a good portion of the game. Earlygame I shouldn't have to explain. Lategame, their only real offensive advantages are against promoted enemies and mercs, and this is discounting the possibility that Marcus makes good use of Speedwings in lategame. Marcus is like Titania and Raven/Guy are like Oscar/Kieran.

Fiora can probably jump to bottom of Upper Mid. Flier utility is generally pretty handy in this game, and a triangle with kent and Sain helps. Canas, Farina, and Karel all need to jump to right under Isadora, and Rebecca, Vaida, Renault, and Wallace all need to drop a tier, maybe two for Wallace. In fact, I think I'd argue even Nino > Wallace.

I don't think Nino even compares to Wallace. Nino is mediocre to crap on every map that she's on while Wallace has an enemy phase. You can't argue that recruiting Wallace is a detriment as it is actually more likely to have the lords under 50 combined levels than over on HHM.

Hector needs to go above Eliwood. He's your second to third best unit earlygame, most of the time.

[Dat Nick]

wait the hell, why wasn't he already? :/

Yeah, Hector>Eliwood for sure, surprised that one went unnoticed

Edited July 7, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco