Fire Emblem Tier List

[Colonel M]

Agreeing on Marcus > Guy and Raven.

[Dat Nick]

Actually, since enemy AS blows enough to not make 10/1 Barte unviable, then I don't see how it hinders Lowen enough to not >Kent and Sain.

Also, with thief utility not mattering so much anymore, I could see Matt a LOT lower than just the top of high...

[Colonel M]

It'd be against Sain's offense (when he usually has the better Str) against Lowen's durability parameters.

[dondon151]

Actually, since enemy AS blows enough to not make 10/1 Barte unviable, then I don't see how it hinders Lowen enough to not >Kent and Sain.

Having passable AS doesn't mean that you have good offense.

[Florete]

I thought Marcus as the best character in the game is pretty much undisputed?

I do not recall, nor agree.

Marcus is like Titania and Raven/Guy are like Oscar/Kieran.

Except for the part where he stops being good much sooner than someone like Titania (or Seth). Raven and Guy are characters who start good and only get much better. Marcus is definitely valuable for a while, but he starts running into problems around Genesis I think it was.

I don't think Nino even compares to Wallace. Nino is mediocre to crap on every map that she's on while Wallace has an enemy phase. You can't argue that recruiting Wallace is a detriment as it is actually more likely to have the lords under 50 combined levels than over on HHM.

In ranked, I'd agree that the lords levels likely won't hit 50. In general efficiency, definitely not. We can afford to take longer (waiting for reinforcements or just not plowing through, stuff like that) and give kills to weaker units more often. Also, Lyn can come anywhere from ~9-15 as a result of her 12 maps. Aside from booting Geitz out, Wallace just sucks as a unit, that's undeniable. Nino needs to kill ~8-10 kills or so (depending on if promoted or not) before she can promote and start spamming Heal staves, which automatically makes her more useful on the field than Wallace, and I'd say it could put her above Karla as well. Remember that Nino is forced to Night of Farewells.

wait the hell, why wasn't he already? :/

Yeah, Hector>Eliwood for sure, surprised that one went unnoticed

I recall Eliwood > Hector once being proven. I think it was Reikken. Stuff like Hector's late promotion, supports, and movement differences.

Actually, since enemy AS blows enough to not make 10/1 Barte unviable, then I don't see how it hinders Lowen enough to not >Kent and Sain.

You can't just say "enemies have bad AS" and assume everyone doubles. Lowen does run into doubling problems, and his strength isn't anything to write home about either.

And what the hell is this about 10/1 Bartre being viable?

Also, with thief utility not mattering so much anymore, I could see Matt a LOT lower than just the top of high...

Like how much? He should most definitely stay in High. Thief utility is more than just Stealing, remember.

[dondon151]

Except for the part where he stops being good much sooner than someone like Titania (or Seth). Raven and Guy are characters who start good and only get much better. Marcus is definitely valuable for a while, but he starts running into problems around Genesis I think it was.

Marcus's offense is rather eh in 23x, but that's only because every enemy is promoted, and it's not that bad. Marcus still wins in this chapter because of 8 move; look at my 23x video to see how much of an asset that is.

Anyway, Marcus has trouble doubling when Kishuna is around. Once he's gone, though:

L5 druid (Luna): 32 HP, 7 AS, 6 def

L5 druid (Nosferatu): 31 HP, 5 AS, 5 def

L5 bishop (Shine): 33 HP, 6 AS, 5 def

L5 bishop (Divine): 32 HP, 10 AS, 6 def

L5 sage (Elfire): 32 HP, 8 AS, 8 def

Marcus only needs to be --/5 on average to ORKO every enemy but the Shine bishops, and those he needs to be --/13 on average. At --/8 on average, Marcus ORKOs every one of these, including the 32 HP/8 def sage, with an Iron Axe. The most durable enemy on the map has 34 HP/8 def, which Marcus can reach with some more levels or 2 levels of a +atk support.

Then compare him to Raven/Guy, who likely still have 5 move and no 1-2 range, but can also ORKO every enemy on the map. Actually, I take that back. Guy has trouble mustering enough atk to ORKO these chumps. Raven could be promoted, in which case he wins against the Shine bishops and before Kishuna disappears, but he still loses move.

Let's look at 24G (since I don't have a save of 24W). There's quite a few mercs around with 10-12 AS that Marcus won't double (though he has a chance at the lower end ones), but then there's also the 5-8 AS pirates and 5-6 AS WKs that are a complete joke. Marcus probably loses here, but you could easily have him perform a task that doesn't involve him facing mercs ever (like getting to the Earth Seal village), so it's not a huge loss.

Chapter 25: pirates have 5-8 AS and cavs have 5-6 AS. Enough said.

Fast forward a bit. Chapter 27 WKs have up to 10 AS (because they're smart enough to wield Iron Lances) and Steel Bow nomads have 10-11 AS. This is probably the toughest chapter for Marcus before endgame in terms of how his offense fares, and then enemy AS takes a dive again. Unless you're a merc.

Chapter 31: I'm not joking when I say that 14 AS doubles every enemy on the map. Even Vaida is good here. Raven does have a clear offensive advantage with more atk, though.

Whatever the case, Marcus clearly wins chapter 12-22. That's 14 chapters. There are only 15 chapters left in the whole game, and Raven does not rape Marcus for the remainder of the game the way that Marcus did for the first half of the game. Let's not forget that Marcus also has resources to help his offense when necessary, like brave weapons, high weapon ranks for silvers, and a Body Ring that helps him double with heavier weapons like a Steel Axe.

In ranked, I'd agree that the lords levels likely won't hit 50. In general efficiency, definitely not. We can afford to take longer (waiting for reinforcements or just not plowing through, stuff like that) and give kills to weaker units more often. Also, Lyn can come anywhere from ~9-15 as a result of her 12 maps.

Lyn comes at around level 9-10 from LM regardless of ranked. A level 12 Lyn gains 20 EXP from killing an unpromoted enemy in chapter 23, which demonstrates how quickly EXP gain deteriorates. You then have to share EXP with Eliwood and Hector as well as the other units that you're using. You might not even be planning on using Lyn or Eliwood in the long term, in which case you have even more units to share EXP with.

I don't seem to recall dilly-dallying being viable in a playthrough regardless of ranked either.

Aside from booting Geitz out, Wallace just sucks as a unit, that's undeniable. Nino needs to kill ~8-10 kills or so (depending on if promoted or not) before she can promote and start spamming Heal staves, which automatically makes her more useful on the field than Wallace, and I'd say it could put her above Karla as well. Remember that Nino is forced to Night of Farewells.

I don't think Nino being forced in 28x works much in her favor. She's not promoted yet (unless you're insisting that she can get 5 levels in half of 28) and being locked to the ground makes her a target for enemy PKs, WKs, Bolting, and ballistae. If you promote her early by chapter 29, she can't heal safely, as all but 2 enemies on the map can hit from 2 range and Nino has an E in staves. In chapter 30, she won't be deployed. Chapter 31, druids and snipers have 2 range, as do some generals, so Nino still faces risks while healing.

As for Wallace, he only needs 1 more point in speed to double most Steel Axe pirates, Steel Lance cavs, and Steel Lance WKs. If you're wondering about his base defense, the strongest Steel Axe pirate in chapter 25 9RKOs Wallace, and Steel Lance cavs tink him when he has WTA. You'll be hard pressed to find enemies exceeding 25 atk until like chapter 30. Wallace is like Oswin without the earlygame utility or demand for a Knight Crest, which is still arguably superior to half assed staff utility after some babying and consumption of a high demand promotion item.

I recall Eliwood > Hector once being proven. I think it was Reikken. Stuff like Hector's late promotion, supports, and movement differences.

HectorxEliwood is a given. 2 levels of a support doesn't suddenly made Eliwood miles better than Hector.

Eliwood wins lategame, but by then he is a good unit in an ocean of good units whereas earlygame, Hector is a good unit in an ocean of mediocre units. I'd weigh Hector's earlygame over Eliwood's lategame. It's a similar comparison to Marcus vs. Raven.

You can't just say "enemies have bad AS" and assume everyone doubles. Lowen does run into doubling problems, and his strength isn't anything to write home about either.

Yes, the strength is a problem. Lowen's offensive parameters actually don't catch up to Marcus's for quite awhile... though like Marcus, the only enemies Lowen will have trouble doubling by midgame will be mercs and promoted enemies.

I'm really tired and this entire post sounds incoherent.

Edited July 7, 2009 by dondon151

[Florete]

Well shit, that didn't work. I guess I need to look more before I start talking. Just one thing:

Lyn comes at around level 9-10 from LM regardless of ranked.

Why is this? Anyone we don't plan to use later doesn't have to be used in Lyn's mode at all. If we only plan to use, say, Kent and Sain, all the kills get fed to these three. I usually get Lyn to ~12 by the end of Lyn mode depending on how many people I'm using (the most common for me being Florina and Sain).

[dondon151]

Why is this? Anyone we don't plan to use later doesn't have to be used in Lyn's mode at all. If we only plan to use, say, Kent and Sain, all the kills get fed to these three. I usually get Lyn to ~12 by the end of Lyn mode depending on how many people I'm using (the most common for me being Florina and Sain).

If I play through the game "efficiently," I would certainly express favoritism towards units that I plan on using in the long term, but I don't automatically channel all EXP into them. For example, if I chose not to use Lowen, that doesn't mean that he doesn't attack or kill enemies. If you get Lyn to level 12 by the end of LM, then I'd say level 10 is a fairly good estimate. Kent, Sain, Florina, Erk, and Lucius are all fairly good, and Dorcas wants EXP as well to ease HHM earlygame.

Edited July 7, 2009 by dondon151

[Mekkah]

Fiora can probably jump to bottom of Upper Mid. Flier utility is generally pretty handy in this game, and a triangle with kent and Sain helps.

Flying only helps as much as it allows you to do things. Unfortunately Fiora contends with Lyn for least durable unit in the game. 13/0 Lyn has 24.4 hp/4.4 def/43 avo while 7/0 Fiora has 21 hp/6 def/30 avo (when they're not weighed down, which is easier on Lyn than Fiora). Then Javelins help Fiora for not taking counters, but they also drop her AS by six and her avo by 12. And Lyn can use forests/forts for +20 avo.

Which means that the best Fiora's flying can do is trying to stop her from getting raped (kind of like FE10 Part 1 Jill, but without Canto), rather than flying off on her own.

For the support triangle, that simply takes too long, especially if you want Fiora to actually fly off sometimes. Triangle may be good for sticking together, but it also brings the problem that only one character can build with both others at once. And pretty much all the bonuses give is Atk, anyhow.

Also, about Guy. I love his earlygame, but later on, being able to use Javs/Hand Axes/magic >>>> Guy imo. For example, Javelin Eliwood might be 2RKOing enemies when Guy ORKOs them, but the more 1-2 ranges there are, the sooner Eliwood is done. And usually enemies like Mages die to Javelin Eliwood regardless. Though I still believe Guy > Eliwood due to how large the gap is between them early on, but just an example.

[dondon151]

FioraxFlorina is better than triangling with Kent and Sain IMO. The triangle is just a reason for why she gets to stick with high tiers.

[Florete]

If I play through the game "efficiently," I would certainly express favoritism towards units that I plan on using in the long term, but I don't automatically channel all EXP into them. For example, if I chose not to use Lowen, that doesn't mean that he doesn't attack or kill enemies. If you get Lyn to level 12 by the end of LM, then I'd say level 10 is a fairly good estimate. Kent, Sain, Florina, Erk, and Lucius are all fairly good, and Dorcas wants EXP as well to ease HHM earlygame.

But this is Lyn mode we're talking about, which is about as hard as toasting bread. I'm pretty sure it can be nearly soloed by Lyn. Your example of not using Lowen is much different because those maps are at least three times as hard. Channeling all the experience into a few LM units is almost too easy.

Also, I don't see most people using all of Kent, Sain, Florina, Erk, and Lucius in a single run, while at the same time adequately levelling Dorcas for his early game.

[Rodykitty]

His/her Lyn is level 8. Sounds reasonable enough for a TAS considering that easy enemies = high movement units are going to see more action, and even carry Lyn at times (as seen in this vid).

Without TAS magic, but still retaining efficiency, I would say level 10 is a good number that allows Lyn to have some EXP poured into her while giving other units room to get the chapter done faster.

[CATS]

Just like the FE8 tier list topic, it looks like no one has actually updated the list. So I'm gonna do the same thing I did there, just re-post and bring up some more issues I see. Once again, definitely not going to read through this whole topic, so if some of this has already been covered, forgive me.

-Top-

Ninian/Nils

Marcus

Raven

Matthew

Matthew needs to go up. Matthew is the only unit who can acquire the Silver Card, which turns an entire rank of the game (Funds) into a complete joke and allows you to spam Killer weapons and such from secret shops.

Marcus vs Ninian / Nils also looks like an interesting debaet. Marcus is doing his haxxes early in the game, while Ninian / Nils do them later, about the time that Marcus starts to become less useful. Who is helping more during their respective times of usefulness?

-High-

Guy

Priscilla

Serra

Sain

Kent

Oswin

Harken

Eliwood

Pent

Guy above Serra looks immediately questionable. Serra provides EXP rank boosting, draws from a non-combat EXP pool, isn't a bad combatant in her own right, etc. She provides a very unique role (staves) while Guy is simply another fighter (admittedly a good one, but still).

Priscilla is a similar case, but she's worse than Serra due to being unable to level in Lyn Mode, so I dunno where she should go. Definitely below Serra however.

Harken and Pent don't belong in this tier at all, I don't think. All these other units are helping and being good and above average for a long time before Pent or Harken even join, and after they join, they are only on par with most of the other high tiers, or perhaps slightly better at first, but not significantly better overall. They should move down.

-Upper Mid-

Hector

Dart

Florina

Lowen

Jaffar

Lucius

Erk

Geitz

Dorcas

Hawkeye

Legault

Lyn

Dart looks much too high. I could possibly agree with some sort of argument about how the Ocean's Seal cost isn't really that bad, considering how badly the Silver Card allows you to screw with the Funds Rating, but still, Dart > Lowen? Come on.

I'd like to hear the reasons for Sain / Kent being a tier above Lowen.

Why is Jaffar so high at all?

Erk and Lucius might want to move up, not sure.

-Lower Mid-

Isadora

Fiora

Bartre

Rath

Vaida

Rebecca

Heath

Canas

Farina

Karel

Renault

Wallace

Canas needs to go up, no doubt.

Farina, Karel and Wallace should all move down, as there's no reason to ever field them in a serious run through, and they all have negatives to even being recruited in the first place (Farina's cost, and then Karel / Wallace require you to not recruit Harken / Geitz).

-Low-

Louise

Athos

Karla

Wil

-Bottom-

Nino

Nino definitely needs to be higher. At the very worst, she can be used to boost the EXP rank a bit in the later chapters. That's not much, but it's still better than the nothing which some units (hello there Wil) have going for them.

[Florete]

@CATS

Hector Hard Mode efficiency tier list:

This is based off my own personal knowledge, any changes can be discussed. I have not even sorted the units within their Tiers, so no doubt there is quite a bit wrong with it, so let's get to work on putting it right. It's a start, at least.

"Efficiency," meaning we don't care about ranks.

Not sorted within tiers should be self-explanatory.

[-Cynthia-]

Matthew needs to go up. Matthew is the only unit who can acquire the Silver Card, which turns an entire rank of the game (Funds) into a complete joke and allows you to spam Killer weapons and such from secret shops.

This is for efficiency, not ranks.

Guy above Serra looks immediately questionable. Serra provides EXP rank boosting, draws from a non-combat EXP pool, isn't a bad combatant in her own right, etc. She provides a very unique role (staves) while Guy is simply another fighter (admittedly a good one, but still).

Priscilla is a similar case, but she's worse than Serra due to being unable to level in Lyn Mode, so I dunno where she should go. Definitely below Serra however.

Eh, Serra might be higher leveled, but Prissy has a horse and is better post promotion. Priscilla's supports also aren't quite as slow.

Dart looks much too high. I could possibly agree with some sort of argument about how the Ocean's Seal cost isn't really that bad, considering how badly the Silver Card allows you to screw with the Funds Rating, but still, Dart > Lowen? Come on.

Remember that this isn't with ranks in mind, although we can still sell the Ocean Seal for a lot of $$ if we don't use Dart, which should be considered.

I'd like to hear the reasons for Sain / Kent being a tier above Lowen.

I guess Lowen doesn't have Lyn Mode and he's a little slow, but I agree he should move up.

Why is Jaffar so high at all?

Good question.

Erk and Lucius might want to move up, not sure.

Pretty severe durability issues IMO.

Canas needs to go up, no doubt.

I agree. He does have some doubling issues, but his Mag is good and he's fairly durable, plus he has staves. Mid tier would be better for him IMO.

Farina, Karel and Wallace should all move down, as there's no reason to ever field them in a serious run through, and they all have negatives to even being recruited in the first place (Farina's cost, and then Karel / Wallace require you to not recruit Harken / Geitz).

Apparently recruitment cost isn't being factored into tier lists anymore.

[Vykan12]

Apparently recruitment cost isn't being factored into tier lists anymore.

FE7 is a goddamn goldmine though. My HHM playthrough practically turned into a pre-promo only run with liberal item/weapon usage, and I still managed to finish the game with a fortune despite missing the silver card. Remember that tossing away the fund ranks allows you to spend 3x more money than normal, which is a huge change.

[-Cynthia-]

FE7 is a goddamn goldmine though. My HHM playthrough practically turned into a pre-promo only run with liberal item/weapon usage, and I still managed to finish the game with a fortune despite missing the silver card. Remember that tossing away the fund ranks allows you to spend 3x more money than normal, which is a huge change.

I was more talking about the opportunity cost of Karel/Wallace not mattering than Farina. I agree that Farina's recruitment cost doesn't matter too much, especially since she comes equipped with her own weapons.

[CATS]

This is for efficiency, not ranks.

In that case, all that ridiculous amount of money can then be turned into mass amounts of good items from shops, Killer weapons, Physic staffs, etc.

Eh, Serra might be higher leveled, but Prissy has a horse and is better post promotion. Priscilla's supports also aren't quite as slow.

Priscilla isn't better post-promotion if she's on a considerably lower level. Likewise, Horsie loses to better stats, or atleast I'm assuming that's the case considering that you have Oswin above Lowen.

Priscilla's supports being faster is most apparent during the earlier stages of the game, when the two are still unpromoted. You'll notice that during this time is when support bonuses are least relevant for them, since they can't attack yet and you don't want to ever expose them to the enemies if you don't have to.

Remember that this isn't with ranks in mind, although we can still sell the Ocean Seal for a lot of $$ if we don't use Dart, which should be considered.

Indeed. I was more referring to the fact that he may be too high even if his promo item were normal, though. How would he be above Lowen? I don't see it.

Pretty severe durability issues IMO.

Well, early on (when their low durability is most apparent) Lucius and Erk provide excellent offense relative to most other units, being fast and very powerful with their ability to hit on Res. Likewise they nearly never have to endure counterattacks from enemies during the player phase, so their durability is better than it looks.

I'm not quite sure they should go up, but I think it should be considered.

Apparently recruitment cost isn't being factored into tier lists anymore.

Any particular reason why not?

Also, if we're going to be talking in terms of "efficiency," give a clear definition of it beyond just not caring about S Ranking the game. Is it simply trying to finish the game in as few turns as you possibly can?

[Vykan12]

Likewise they nearly never have to endure counterattacks from enemies during the player phase, so their durability is better than it looks.

You also have to restrict units to protect them to benefit from that luxury or have a very player phase centric offence.

Also, if we're going to be talking in terms of "efficiency," give a clear definition of it beyond just not caring about S Ranking the game. Is it simply trying to finish the game in as few turns as you possibly can?

Try checking out my tier list faq on the general forum.

[Florete]

Priscilla isn't better post-promotion if she's on a considerably lower level. Likewise, Horsie loses to better stats, or atleast I'm assuming that's the case considering that you have Oswin above Lowen.

Really?

20/4 Serra, C Oswin, C Erk w/Lightning/Shine

HP: 31

Atk: 20/22

Crit: ~19/22

Avo: 63/59

AS: 16.8/14.8

Def: 9.3

Res: 21.1

20/1 Priscilla, B Guy, B Erk w/Fire

HP: 26.65

Atk: 21.8

Crit: 28

Avo: 58

AS: 14.8

Def: 8.55

Res: 19.5

It looks fairly similar to me. Once Priscilla can use Thunder she'll get some extra crit and atk on top of it, and by then her AS will have caught up enough to still match Serra's (slightly higher experience gain). But there really isn't a whole lot of difference here except Serra has been promoted a bit longer and is slightly more durable, but then Priscilla rides around with her horse and all its advantages, so...It's also worth mentioning that Serra's best C's generally take as long to build as Priscilla's fastest A's (Priscilla's slowest A is as fast as Serra's fastest...), and Priscilla also has more viable options to support as well (Raven, Erk, Lucius, Guy, Sain vs. Erk, Lucius, Hector, Oswin). I'd also argue her options are better overall (Erk and Lucius are obviously equal, Guy and Raven > Hector and Oswin, Sain is about equal to them).

Gah, these two have too many support options. Well, let me conclude by saying Serra's fastest options are also the least likely (Sain has a nice mvoe gap, Lucius is sub-par), and the rest are just very slow, while Priscilla's best options are like, Top/High tier characters and are much faster (A with Raven/Erk takes about as long as SerraxOswin C, B with Guy takes just a bit longer).

Priscilla's supports being faster is most apparent during the earlier stages of the game, when the two are still unpromoted. You'll notice that during this time is when support bonuses are least relevant for them, since they can't attack yet and you don't want to ever expose them to the enemies if you don't have to.

Giving out support bonuses > not.

Indeed. I was more referring to the fact that he may be too high even if his promo item were normal, though. How would he be above Lowen? I don't see it.

They still aren't ordered within tiers.

Any particular reason why not?

For Farina it should simple.

For Karel and Wallace, I'm not too sure myself. Something about their recruitment not being a detriment if the unit replaced isn't even in play. I didn't really get it.

Also, if we're going to be talking in terms of "efficiency," give a clear definition of it beyond just not caring about S Ranking the game. Is it simply trying to finish the game in as few turns as you possibly can?

Basically, beating the game as safely as possible in a reasonable amount of time. Like, sitting around for 80 turns to build supports wouldn't be expected, but playing somewhat defensively and not bum-rushing everything (aka Tactics rank) is the general idea. Stat boosters can be used, gems can be sold, characters can die (though I don't know how that would be used in arguments), etc.

[Don Draper]

Jesus christ, I hate this game.

You think this game has poor enemy AS? FE4/5 have enemies with literally 0 AS lategame thanks to weighing themselves down. Some enemies in Tearring Saga have NEGATIVE AS.

[Lord Raven]

People in FE5 don't need stats to fuck you over, though. : [

[dondon151]

Lowen needs to move up to right above or below Kent and Sain. The TC doesn't update the list anymore...

[Dat Nick]

Remember that this isn't with ranks in mind, although we can still sell the Ocean Seal for a lot of $$ if we don't use Dart, which should be considered.

With the plethora of funds we have already AND silver card? That's about as productive as selling stat boosters, in, say FEDS [which only net you 1250]

Marcus vs Ninian / Nils also looks like an interesting debaet.

Absolutely not, it's not even a debate. Marcus has been verified the best character in the game, deal with it.

Which speaking of, Nininils have to drop as a whole. Not only do they come way too damn late, consider how failure enemy stats are when they come: Any Joe Blow from Idaho is going to kill everything on the map. We can field a different unit to one round everything on the map and you're going to see roughly the same performance on a map than if you fielded Nininils. Now, things would be way different if they came at a time where their abilities were actually useful, i.e during a time we actually struggle to kill enemies...but they don't.

I don't know where they should fall, but I know this much, Top Tier is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Tethys, and Elphin/Lalam are both far more useful than Nininils are...and yet they're top tier.

It's just ridiculous. drop plz.

Speaking of which, Matthew needs to fall out of top tier too.

[Vykan12]

Dancers are useful regardless of difficulty. Take your best unit and increase their movement by 5 and you'll get some rewarding results. Her stat boosting dances are also helpful for surviving huge enemy phases (eg/ boosting Erk's def from 6 to 16), among many other things.