Fire Emblem Tier List

[Dat Nick]

Dancers are useful regardless of difficulty.

Then both Elphin/Lalam and Tethys need to move into Top Tier this instant: Because they're even better than Nininils are.

Take your best unit and increase their movement by 5 and you'll get some rewarding results.

Have you disregarded everything my entire argument, or did you just totally fail to comprehend it? This is ****ing lategame HHM. You don't NEED your best unit. Any random schmuck is going to be doing in any random enemy just fine.

Her stat boosting dances are also helpful for surviving huge enemy phases

We actually need this? HHM enemies suck on offense too, not just defense. Reikken said something about Dorcas having reliable avoid once, too...

among many other things.

Then explain these "many other things", because from what I've seen, nothing justifies them being so far ahead of any other single-refresh dancer.

EDIT: Oh, and I'll probably be asked for more detail on the said Reikken quote, so here it is ahead of time:

I'm not going to be throwing Lucius out where he can be attacked by several enemies. Almost everyone else is fine. Raven, Lowen, Eliwood, Kent, Sain, Marcus, Hector, etc. etc. Even Dorcas (with one A support or some equivalent) with his 10 spd faces 14% real hit rates for like 9 damage to his near 50 hp.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Florete]

I don't know about Top tier, but "enemies suck" isn't exactly the best argument. Not everyone ORKOs everything (seriously, where do you get this from?) and there are a lot of enemies anyway. Characters can easily be swarmed, making a +Def boost assurance that no one dies. Also, Ninian doesn't come in late game, she comes at New Resolve, which is chapter 21, and most likely none of your team (barring Marcus) is even promoted yet. We have two chapters of absence later (one being The Berserker, which only one more person can come to anyway, so I wouldn't count it) and then the end, where Nils even happens to be forced, if that means anything. Discounting 19xx, 30, and 31x, there are 31 maps, and NiniNils is available for 14, which is ~45% of the game. So for other characters to be better, they have to be ~twice as good when around. I can see most of the Top tiers reaching that, and probably some of High as well. Lower part of High sounds right to me.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Vykan12]

You tend to exaggerate a game's lack of difficulty greatly. While many HHM enemies are jokes, you can't ignore the powerful hero enemies, or the luna/nosferatu!druids that 2-3HKO most of your team members. Some units (eg/ Hector, Oswin, many pre-promos) will have trouble doubling, bows are threatening even to someone tanky like Vaida, etc. That specific Erk example was something I actually used to great effect. Normally Erk gets 3HKOes by wyverns, so having him face 8 of them isn't a good idea, even if he's on a forest.

Anyway, why would Ninian moving some random shmuck be any less valuable? Either way, you just got a powerful unit 5 spaces closer to a group of enemies.

[Dat Nick]

I don't know about Top tier, but "enemies suck" isn't exactly the best argument.

29 hp/8 def/8 AS:

At Dragon's Gate. Nope, enemies don't suck in this game, not at all.

and there are a lot of enemies anyway.

There can be all the enemies in the world, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter since the only differential is that Raven has to kill 40 guys with a handaxe instead of 20.

Characters can easily be swarmed, making a +Def boost assurance that no one dies.

See the Reikken quote about DORCAS of all characters.

I think we're assured already.

[Vykan12]

Dorcas has great concrete durability. Are you talking about his avo? Reikken probably assumed unrealistic supports, perhaps even in addition to WTA. The quote needs more context.

[dondon151]

I've never understood why dancer units are rated so highly, especially the ones that can only refresh one unit per turn. One extra player phase means rather little when a larger percentage of the game progresses on enemy phase. Ninian has the ability to give 15 good enemy phases to defensively or offensively weak units, but I've never really found that to significantly help me in any way...

[Vykan12]

If Ninian gets a unit to go farther on player phase, their enemy phase production increases as a result.

[CATS]

Giving out support bonuses > not

Serra's Affinity is better than Priscilla's, however, so she gives out better bonuses per rank. C Serra gives Erk the same Avo and Def as B Pris and only 2 points less Avo than A Pris, but then when B Serra happens Erk is getting more Avo and Def than he even would from an A with Priscilla. This would certainly be significant if you're willing to chill out and take things at a slower pace as implied in the quote below, so that supports have more time to build and thus Serra's slower supports get finished earlier in the game.

Gah, these two have too many support options. Well, let me conclude by saying Serra's fastest options are also the least likely (Sain has a nice mvoe gap, Lucius is sub-par), and the rest are just very slow, while Priscilla's best options are like, Top/High tier characters and are much faster (A with Raven/Erk takes about as long as SerraxOswin C, B with Guy takes just a bit longer).

Out of curiosity, why mention a move gap between Sain and Serra, without mentioning such against Priscilla x Oswin, Guy, Raven etc.?

Basically, beating the game as safely as possible in a reasonable amount of time. Like, sitting around for 80 turns to build supports wouldn't be expected, but playing somewhat defensively and not bum-rushing everything (aka Tactics rank) is the general idea. Stat boosters can be used, gems can be sold, characters can die (though I don't know how that would be used in arguments), etc.

So, you're not trying to finish as quickly as possible, but you're not willing to sit around and support abuse, either. The tier list FAQ says this:

"Characters are compared based on how they contribute towards an efficient playthrough. By efficiency I am mainly referring to turn count and resource expenditure."

Which sounds to me like finishing as quickly as possible would be valued. Is there like, some arbitrary turn limits in place or something, i.e. "You have to finish in atleast 25 turns" or something?

Hm. "Characters can die" as an argument might be something along the lines of giving Lowen some Rebecca support early on, then killing off Rebecca so he can support Harken later.

Absolutely not, it's not even a debate. Marcus has been verified the best character in the game, deal with it.

Where? Considering you're not playing for ranks, and thus the need to abuse Marcus in order to fulfill Tactics Rank requirements would presumably be dropped.

Which speaking of, Nininils have to drop as a whole. Not only do they come way too damn late, consider how failure enemy stats are when they come: Any Joe Blow from Idaho is going to kill everything on the map. We can field a different unit to one round everything on the map and you're going to see roughly the same performance on a map than if you fielded Nininils. Now, things would be way different if they came at a time where their abilities were actually useful, i.e during a time we actually struggle to kill enemies...but they don't.

If "Joe Blow from Idaho can kill everything on the map" is your argument, then why even discuss tiers in the first place? If anyone can kill all the enemies, then all units are roughly equal, and there's no point in trying to rank them because the entire game is a huge joke, correct?

Judging by the fact that this topic exists, though, I'm thinking that might not be the case.

Then both Elphin/Lalam and Tethys need to move into Top Tier this instant: Because they're even better than Nininils are.

Why is Tethys better? Ninian has the rings, Tethys doesn't. I guess Tethys's supports are more useful, but that still doesn't strike me as making her instantly superior.

Ninian has the ability to give 15 good enemy phases to defensively or offensively weak units, but I've never really found that to significantly help me in any way...

Lucius can easily one-round the Knights and Wyverns in Kinship's Bond, but you can't expose him to them for obvious reasons.

Toss on a use of Ninis's Grace, suddenly that problem goes away, and now Lucius can wade out into the enemies and slaughter them en masse.

Edited July 31, 2009 by CATS

[Florete]

Serra's Affinity is better than Priscilla's, however, so she gives out better bonuses per rank. C Serra gives Erk the same Avo and Def as B Pris and only 2 points less Avo than A Pris, but then when B Serra happens Erk is getting more Avo and Def than he even would from an A with Priscilla. This would certainly be significant if you're willing to chill out and take things at a slower pace as implied in the quote below, so that supports have more time to build and thus Serra's slower supports get finished earlier in the game.

Yes, let me address that there. Otherwise, the obvious issue is "her supports are much slower."

Out of curiosity, why mention a move gap between Sain and Serra, without mentioning such against Priscilla x Oswin, Guy, Raven etc.?

Because it's switched. In SainxSerra, the fighter has the higher move, while in PriscillaxOswin/Raven/Guy, it's the healer with more move. Say Sain uses his full move to attack an enemy as well as Raven/Guy/Oswin doing the same. Priscilla is much more likely to be able to reach her partner for a heal than Serra is to reach Sain.

So, you're not trying to finish as quickly as possible, but you're not willing to sit around and support abuse, either. The tier list FAQ says this:

"Characters are compared based on how they contribute towards an efficient playthrough. By efficiency I am mainly referring to turn count and resource expenditure."

Which sounds to me like finishing as quickly as possible would be valued. Is there like, some arbitrary turn limits in place or something, i.e. "You have to finish in atleast 25 turns" or something?

You misunderstood me, or maybe I didn't describe it well enough. What I mean is that we can afford to take a chapter like Genesis defensively because going very fast will likely be extremely risky. I didn't say "dilly-dally and wait for all the enemies to come to you." I just mean that there's no reason to add unnecessary risk to the game, which, from my own experience, the Tactics rank would often force you to do. It just leaves determining a reasonable turn count per chapter to us, the debaters, and not the game itself.

[Vykan12]

I can't say Priscilla's supports are that impressive.

She's stuck with wind, arguably one of the worst affinities in the game due to giving no defensive bonuses whatsoever, which is bad since avo is the main thing people want from supports. Moreover, she's usually giving out partial bonuses all over the place.

Raven: atk, def, avo, crit

Erk: atk, def, hit, avo

Lucius: def, cev

Guy: avo, cev

Oswin: def, hit, avo, crit

Sain: n/a

In addition, her supports are pretty slow. For anyone not named Raven, Erk or Lucius, she needs to spend 41 turns adjacent to somebody just for a C. That's really bad for a healer since their movement patterns are so unpredictable and obviously non-optimal for a melee unit to follow.

Serra isn't much better in that respect either. Her slowest support is 41 turns for a C, and it goes as high as 81. I just have to shake my head at those 200 A level supports. I recall needing ~300 turns to achieve an S rank in tactics, so assuming that represents a realistic turn count for beating the game, Serra would have to spend over 2/3 of her entire existence besides Oswin just to nab the A level at endgame.

I really think Mekkah was dead-on in saying only stuff like Kent x Sain, Eliwood x Hector, Raven x Lucius, etc will occur in reasonably efficient playthroughs.

[dondon151]

If Ninian gets a unit to go farther on player phase, their enemy phase production increases as a result.

The problem with this is that Ninian dancing another PC unit doesn't give her 5 extra move, so repeated iterations of this logic will ultimately end up in "Ninian dances twice and gets left in the dust." Ninian needs to have both her utility and units to exercise her utility on.

Serra's Affinity is better than Priscilla's, however, so she gives out better bonuses per rank. C Serra gives Erk the same Avo and Def as B Pris and only 2 points less Avo than A Pris, but then when B Serra happens Erk is getting more Avo and Def than he even would from an A with Priscilla. This would certainly be significant if you're willing to chill out and take things at a slower pace as implied in the quote below, so that supports have more time to build and thus Serra's slower supports get finished earlier in the game.

If you're wondering how huge 160 turns is (for SerraxErk B) , it is roughly over half of the total number of turns taken to complete the game. Obviously, Serra and Erk will not be adjacent to each other all of the time; even a figure like 60% which allows them to grab a B before the end of the game is asking for too much.

Where? Considering you're not playing for ranks, and thus the need to abuse Marcus in order to fulfill Tactics Rank requirements would presumably be dropped.

You don't need to abuse Marcus in the first place to fulfill the tactics rank; if anything, you're encouraged to use Marcus more now because there's no EXP rank. He's your best unit early to midgame and really doesn't have any trouble doubling the most common types of generic enemies later on, so it follows that overall he is the best unit in the game. Also 8 move.

Lucius can easily one-round the Knights and Wyverns in Kinship's Bond, but you can't expose him to them for obvious reasons.

Toss on a use of Ninis's Grace, suddenly that problem goes away, and now Lucius can wade out into the enemies and slaughter them en masse.

The immediate problems to this type of scenario are as follows:

- This extra turn of enemy phase needs to make a significant difference. Circumstances where it is possible for a unit to encounter an army of enemies on enemy phase aren't exactly common.

- The following point probably isn't true in the given scenario, but in others later on it is possible to use another unit without ring effects and achieve comparable results.

- If Ninian uses a ring, she can't dance another unit. In situations where Ninis's Grace is useful (I suppose when you're swarmed by enemies, as your post implies), it is also useful to give another heal or eliminate an enemy to prevent an attack on enemy phase.

I can't deny that rings have their uses, but they're for the most part something that's slightly better than a gimmick. The end result is that sometimes Ninian can dance a unit or use a ring with the intent to enhance enemy phase, but most of the time she will be used for an extra staff use or an extra player phase round of combat.

Edited July 31, 2009 by dondon151

[Florete]

I can't say Priscilla's supports are that impressive.

She's stuck with wind, arguably one of the worst affinities in the game due to giving no defensive bonuses whatsoever, which is bad since avo is the main thing people want from supports. Moreover, she's usually giving out partial bonuses all over the place.

Raven: atk, def, avo, crit

Erk: atk, def, hit, avo

Lucius: def, cev

Guy: avo, cev

Oswin: def, hit, avo, crit

Sain: n/a

In addition, her supports are pretty slow. For anyone not named Raven, Erk or Lucius, she needs to spend 41 turns adjacent to somebody just for a C. That's really bad for a healer since their movement patterns are so unpredictable and obviously non-optimal for a melee unit to follow.

I never said they were amazing, but partial bonuses are still something. She usually only needs to get to B. Also, I find it interesting you say they're pretty slow then say "except for these 3," two of whom are arguably her best partners. You say RavenxLucius is perfectly viable, and guess what? Priscilla can triangle with them for double B's. RavenxLucius A is 71 turns. RavenxPriscilla B is only 48 and LuciusxPriscilla B is 78, so that's not that bad. Erk is even faster than Raven (+1 turn but starts earlier) and B Guy (since he'd prefer A Matthew) is only 5 turns more than that. The whole point is that her support situation is better than Serra's.

In the end, I really just wish Priscilla had Thunder for her affinity. Why did they have to give her Wind....

[Vykan12]

In the end, I really just wish Priscilla had Thunder for her affinity. Why did they have to give her Wind....

The same reason they keep weighing down dark mage users in every FE game... sheer stupidity :P

The problem with this is that Ninian dancing another PC unit doesn't give her 5 extra move, so repeated iterations of this logic will ultimately end up in "Ninian dances twice and gets left in the dust." Ninian needs to have both her utility and units to exercise her utility on.

Give her the boots then. More dancing > +2 move on a melee unit.

[dondon151]

The boots, like every significant stat booster in FE7 HHM, come late. And I would contest that assertion anyway, because Ninian's utility is 1:1 (whereas Reyson and Sylvia for instance have utility up to 1:4). +2 move for her doesn't necessarily translate into +2 move for any unit of your choice; 6 move units end up getting +1 move because they can't keep up with Ninian and 8 move units also end up getting +1 move because Ninian can't keep up with them.

Boots on a combat unit let him charge forward and help clear the chapter faster... particularly since by that point in the game most of your units are just a hair's width away from being invincible...

Edited July 31, 2009 by dondon151

[Mekkah]

A few things about Ninian's dancing are being ignored here. They allow for crazy rescue/drop techniques to get more units closer to where you want them, like to chests/thieves/Ch28Zephiel/enemies in general. Ninian is also clutch in chapters like Genesis and Cog of Destiny to Restore/heal to maximum potential. You might only have two A staff users (Pent + main healer), but in chapters like this sometimes your healer gets silenced, and someone else berserked, and a third guy injured by long-range, maybe even a fourth fighting a general enemy.

Also while this partially addressed:

Priscilla isn't better post-promotion if she's on a considerably lower level. Likewise, Horsie loses to better stats, or at least I'm assuming that's the case considering that you have Oswin above Lowen.

Lowen and Oswin both have amazing durability, so they will often move their full movement to expose themselves to enemies more. In this case, Lowen having almost double Oswin's movement is extremely significant (note that Oswin also has 4->5 mov, while most others have 5->6, whereas Lowen and Pris have the same 7-8 move).

Priscilla and Serra, however, often won't be using their full movement, or if they are it's until your frontliners are reaching a skirmish, and from there having higher move isn't as important. On one hand, I think Serra is one of the best units in the game, but on the other hand she should always be next to Priscilla in any tier list imo. Just like how Sain, Lowen and Kent should never have a tier gap between them.

[Raven]

A few things about Ninian's dancing are being ignored here. They allow for crazy rescue/drop techniques to get more units closer to where you want them, like to chests/thieves/Ch28Zephiel/enemies in general. Ninian is also clutch in chapters like Genesis and Cog of Destiny to Restore/heal to maximum potential. You might only have two A staff users (Pent + main healer), but in chapters like this sometimes your healer gets silenced, and someone else berserked, and a third guy injured by long-range, maybe even a fourth fighting a general enemy.

Also while this partially addressed:

Lowen and Oswin both have amazing durability, so they will often move their full movement to expose themselves to enemies more. In this case, Lowen having almost double Oswin's movement is extremely significant (note that Oswin also has 4->5 mov, while most others have 5->6, whereas Lowen and Pris have the same 7-8 move).

Priscilla and Serra, however, often won't be using their full movement, or if they are it's until your frontliners are reaching a skirmish, and from there having higher move isn't as important. On one hand, I think Serra is one of the best units in the game, but on the other hand she should always be next to Priscilla in any tier list imo. Just like how Sain, Lowen and Kent should never have a tier gap between them.

That is true, however you never know when you may find yourself in a situation where you are thankful for that +2 movement Priscilla has over Serra.

[_____]

I don't know why Oswin is between Kent and Sain, and Lowen.

[CATS]

Yes, let me address that there. Otherwise, the obvious issue is "her supports are much slower."

Were you trying to make a point here?

Because it's switched. In SainxSerra, the fighter has the higher move, while in PriscillaxOswin/Raven/Guy, it's the healer with more move. Say Sain uses his full move to attack an enemy as well as Raven/Guy/Oswin doing the same. Priscilla is much more likely to be able to reach her partner for a heal than Serra is to reach Sain.

I see. Well, it isn't like it matters either way, since "move gap" doesn't mean anything. The only way it would separate them would be if Sain were charging ahead and using all 7 of his movement squares in a straight line each turn, in other words, next to never. That only happens when there's no enemies in the way (which again, is almost never), in which case if you sent guys like Sain ahead, Priscilla would probably go with them too anyways.

Really?

20/4 Serra, C Oswin, C Erk w/Lightning/Shine

HP: 31

Atk: 20/22

Crit: ~19/22

Avo: 63/59

AS: 16.8/14.8

Def: 9.3

Res: 21.1

20/1 Priscilla, B Guy, B Erk w/Fire

HP: 26.65

Atk: 21.8

Crit: 28

Avo: 58

AS: 14.8

Def: 8.55

Res: 19.5

It's going to be more than just 3 levels. Serra is available for 10 chapters (7 chapters in LHM, then in HHM C12, C13 and 13x) and then part of Ch. 14 before Priscilla is even recruited. A 3 level lead suggests that Serra only heals 5 times per chapter on average, which would be reasonable if chapters ended in 5 or 6 turns and Nils didn't exist, I suppose.

It looks fairly similar to me. Once Priscilla can use Thunder she'll get some extra crit and atk on top of it, and by then her AS will have caught up enough to still match Serra's (slightly higher experience gain). But there really isn't a whole lot of difference here except Serra has been promoted a bit longer and is slightly more durable, but then Priscilla rides around with her horse and all its advantages, so...It's also worth mentioning that Serra's best C's generally take as long to build as Priscilla's fastest A's (Priscilla's slowest A is as fast as Serra's fastest...), and Priscilla also has more viable options to support as well (Raven, Erk, Lucius, Guy, Sain vs. Erk, Lucius, Hector, Oswin). I'd also argue her options are better overall (Erk and Lucius are obviously equal, Guy and Raven > Hector and Oswin, Sain is about equal to them).

Even a C with Hector is 66 turns; Priscilla x Raven / Erk A is about 10 turns more, and gives minimally better bonuses, 1 more Atk (which neither one really cares about) and 2 more Avo (oh noes). Meanwhile, Serra's Lucius support can reach B in only 5 or 6 more turns than Priscilla's two fast A's, and gives +2 Def and +5 Avo, which is better than the bonuses that Priscilla gets from A Erk or Raven. Sain x Serra B happens in about the same amount of time and gives basically the same bonuses as Pris x Raven / Erk A (once again Priscilla is only getting 2 more Avo).

Then A Lucius / A Sain are possible, and A Lucius gives 3 Def which is more than Priscilla can ever get even with full supports.

Priscilla can go for other supports if she wants but all her other supports are much worse, being about 50 turns slower to A Rank and generally not offering full defensive bonuses.

I could agree that Priscilla's supports are better, but if so, it's not by much at all.

[dondon151]

It's going to be more than just 3 levels. Serra is available for 10 chapters (7 chapters in LHM, then in HHM C12, C13 and 13x) and then part of Ch. 14 before Priscilla is even recruited. A 3 level lead suggests that Serra only heals 5 times per chapter on average, which would be reasonable if chapters ended in 5 or 6 turns and Nils didn't exist, I suppose.

I usually put it at around a 5-6 level lead that Serra has on Priscilla when the latter first joins.

Even a C with Hector is 66 turns; Priscilla x Raven / Erk A is about 10 turns more, and gives minimally better bonuses, 1 more Atk (which neither one really cares about) and 2 more Avo (oh noes).

Priscilla's B supports with Erk and Raven are about 17 turns less than Serra's C with Hector, and they give the same bonuses, so comparing it to the A supports isn't really fair. Note that if Priscilla gets partial bonuses from a support, they stack on partial bonuses from another support.

Hector himself doesn't necessarily want to support Serra, though... chances are he's likely to have Eliwood and Oswin, who are both faster than Serra.

Edited July 31, 2009 by dondon151

[Florete]

Were you trying to make a point here?

You had said in your paragraph the point I wanted to make, which was slower supports, so there wasn't much left to say.

I see. Well, it isn't like it matters either way, since "move gap" doesn't mean anything. The only way it would separate them would be if Sain were charging ahead and using all 7 of his movement squares in a straight line each turn, in other words, next to never. That only happens when there's no enemies in the way (which again, is almost never), in which case if you sent guys like Sain ahead, Priscilla would probably go with them too anyways.

I didn't say it happens all the time, but it definitely matters. For example, the first turn of a map often doesn't see any enemies, or few enemies nearby, so he might use his full move then. And I wouldn't say it's "almost never" when no enemies are in the way, either. In any case, he might move to attack an enemy farther away because someone with less move (aka couldn't reach the guy Sain is going after) killed a guy closer in front.

And if Priscilla goes with them, too, well, points for her?

It's going to be more than just 3 levels. Serra is available for 10 chapters (7 chapters in LHM, then in HHM C12, C13 and 13x) and then part of Ch. 14 before Priscilla is even recruited. A 3 level lead suggests that Serra only heals 5 times per chapter on average, which would be reasonable if chapters ended in 5 or 6 turns and Nils didn't exist, I suppose.

I don't see how Lyn's mode helps her a whole lot unless you favor her. Not to mention LM enemies are pathetic, so someone won't always be hurt. I can't see her using more than a full Heal staff in LM, and then almost a full one by the time Priscilla shows, which is ~620 experience (give or take a few if she gets attacked or something), and that right there would be a three level lead. I could also say Priscilla might close the gap a bit due to being able to heal just slightly more often.

Even a C with Hector is 66 turns; Priscilla x Raven / Erk A is about 10 turns more, and gives minimally better bonuses, 1 more Atk (which neither one really cares about) and 2 more Avo (oh noes). Meanwhile, Serra's Lucius support can reach B in only 5 or 6 more turns than Priscilla's two fast A's, and gives +2 Def and +5 Avo, which is better than the bonuses that Priscilla gets from A Erk or Raven. Sain x Serra B happens in about the same amount of time and gives basically the same bonuses as Pris x Raven / Erk A (once again Priscilla is only getting 2 more Avo).

As dondon said, comparing them to her A's is unfair, since she doesn't need A's. She's best in a triangle with B Raven/Lucius, or B Guy and A/B someone else like Lucius (full offense is nice).

Then A Lucius / A Sain are possible, and A Lucius gives 3 Def which is more than Priscilla can ever get even with full supports.

I don't see how SerraxSain A is reasonable at all, seeing as Sain wants an A with Kent, and he'd much prefer Fiora or Priscilla for a B partner (similar move, arguably better bonuses, just as fast). Lucius A is better, but then even he has a 100% better partner in Raven and I don't think the Def will do a whole lot for units with such low Def as it is.

Priscilla can go for other supports if she wants but all her other supports are much worse, being about 50 turns slower to A Rank and generally not offering full defensive bonuses.

Whoever said she has to get full defensive bonuses? It's obviously better than full offense, but offense can still be seen as a partial defensive boost due to not seeing player phase counters as often, especially since Priscilla can get a lot of crit from full supports with Erk/Guy/Lucius/Sain, not to mention someone like Guy wants her badly because he wants all the crit he can get since 30% Str growth won't get him too far in itself and Matthew is his only other reasonable partner.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Renall]

You think this game has poor enemy AS? FE4/5 have enemies with literally 0 AS lategame thanks to weighing themselves down. Some enemies in Tearring Saga have NEGATIVE AS.

FE5 isn't so bad because enemies have marginal amounts of CON (even in the first chapter of Thracia, the pissant Soldier mooks can have enough CON to only lose a couple AS from Javelins and the like) and Evade caps out at 0. FE4 though, holy shit, every goddamn brigand has negative evasion. I can't recall if negative evade counts any different than zero though.

Your point is valid though; some people do run into doubling issues. I'm trying to think of who has such issues that hasn't had those problems acknowledged already though.

[CATS]

I didn't say it happens all the time, but it definitely matters. For example, the first turn of a map often doesn't see any enemies, or few enemies nearby, so he might use his full move then.

It's better to simply start your mounted units further back at the beginning of the chapter, so that the main group can move farther ahead and reach the enemies sooner. Starting your mounts in front and then sending them way ahead of everyone is pointless, since they can't fight all the enemies on their own, and oftentimes Hector has to seize anyway, so there's no point in moving faster than he does. Plus, as we can see here, they do indeed get separated from support partners, which is another reason to not just blindly charge ahead.

And I wouldn't say it's "almost never" when no enemies are in the way, either.

Other than the first turn or two of some chapters, when does it happen?

In any case, he might move to attack an enemy farther away because someone with less move (aka couldn't reach the guy Sain is going after) killed a guy closer in front.

In order for him to move out of Serra's range, he has to move far away from the main group. That's rarely a good idea in HHM.

And if Priscilla goes with them, too, well, points for her?

More like no support turns for her, so the "move gap" deal affects her supports the same anyways, except that there's only a move gap with one of Serra's supports instead of all of them, so really the "move gap" argument against support turns would hurt Priscilla's supports more than Serra's overall.

I don't see how Lyn's mode helps her a whole lot unless you favor her.

Serra has 7 chapters in LHM. Even if you finish every chapter in 6 turns, which you won't (hai there C7), that's 42 turns for Serra in LHM.

Not to mention LM enemies are pathetic, so someone won't always be hurt.

Pathetic, sure. "Doing zero damage to your guys" level of pathetic, no. And they all have Iron weapons giving them good accuracy, plus none of your units have good Avo at all, so people will be getting hit left and right. Then throw in the random +1 HP from level ups that Serra can heal when there's nothing better to do. There's no shortage of injuries.

I can't see her using more than a full Heal staff in LM, and then almost a full one by the time Priscilla shows, which is ~620 experience (give or take a few if she gets attacked or something), and that right there would be a three level lead. I could also say Priscilla might close the gap a bit due to being able to heal just slightly more often.

Remember that Nils is often refreshing Serra to heal again in LHM. It allows Serra to get more EXP than she otherwise would, while the combat units are getting the same amount total regardless of whether you refresh them or not, so if it's a choice between refreshing Serra or a fighter, the nod goes to Serra. It benefits her without hurting anyone else.

Also, 620 experience puts Serra at L7 with 20 EXP left over, which is a four level lead. And Serra is easily using Heal over 30 times in LHM.

I assume your last sentence is referring to Priscilla's higher move. That might let her get an extra heal in once or twice. It's never going to matter often enough for her to actually close the gap by even one level, though.

As dondon said, comparing them to her A's is unfair, since she doesn't need A's. She's best in a triangle with B Raven/Lucius, or B Guy and A/B someone else like Lucius (full offense is nice).

Okay then, make it just B's, so she gets worse bonuses but finishes earlier. Either way it's about the same.

"full offense is nice?" No, full offense sucks for Priscilla considering she can't attack for half the game. Lucius doesn't want it either. He already has very high offense but trash defense. He wants more Def and Avo, not more Atk. And his Priscilla support isn't faster than his Serra support. Serra's a better partner for him.

I don't see how SerraxSain A is reasonable at all, seeing as Sain wants an A with Kent, and he'd much prefer Fiora or Priscilla for a B partner (similar move, arguably better bonuses, just as fast).

Kent isn't used every time. All that needs to happen is for him to get bad levels in Lyn Mode, and he's out.

Fiora or Priscilla? Wind x Wind? Are you kidding? The only bonus that gives is Atk, which is exactly what Sain doesn't need more of. He already has a very high Str stat. He needs Def and Avo moreso than Atk. Oh look, Serra's affinity gives both of those.

As for Lucius, again Raven isn't used every time, though yes, he's better off in that department than Kent.

Either way, B Lucius already gives better bonuses than any of Priscilla's A supports (except possibly Oswin, but Priscilla wants A Raven or Erk anyway since those are so much faster), and B Sain is about the same, so it isn't like Serra needs those A's in order to compete. They're just icing on the cake whenever they do happen.

Whoever said she has to get full defensive bonuses?

She obviously doesn't have to, she'd simply prefer to, so you might as well stick with arguing her Erk and Raven supports.

It's obviously better than full offense, but offense can still be seen as a partial defensive boost due to not seeing player phase counters as often, especially since Priscilla can get a lot of crit from full supports with Erk/Guy/Lucius/Sain

In the same way that defense can be seen as a partial offensive boost due to being able to expose yourself to the enemies and counter them more often.

Meanwhile, Priscilla doesn't care about Atk or Crit since she can't attack while unpromoted, then after she promotes her Atk is often high enough to 2HKO the enemies anyway because she hits on Res. On the other hand, her defenses could obviously use some work.

Def and Avo > Atk and Crit

I mean, if you want to give Priscilla the latter instead of the former, be my guest, I'm just telling you she doesn't need or want to do that.

Edited July 31, 2009 by CATS

[dondon151]

In order for him to move out of Serra's range, he has to move far away from the main group. That's rarely a good idea in HHM.

It isn't if it's earlygame, but by midgame your combat units are durable enough to make forays into enemies and by lategame some of them can solo entire groups of them with ease.

Remember that Nils is often refreshing Serra to heal again in LHM. It allows Serra to get more EXP than she otherwise would, while the combat units are getting the same amount total regardless of whether you refresh them or not, so if it's a choice between refreshing Serra or a fighter, the nod goes to Serra. It benefits her without hurting anyone else.

This is pretty blatant favoritism that only benefits Serra. The choice to maximize EXP gain does not necessarily reflect efficient play (otherwise Marcus would not be the best character in the game). If the player has the option to have Nils refresh units to more quickly clear a chapter, he is assumed to do that instead of feeding heals to Serra.

I assume your last sentence is referring to Priscilla's higher move. That might let her get an extra heal in once or twice. It's never going to matter often enough for her to actually close the gap by even one level, though.

It only needs to happen 9 times for an extra level. I can go chapter by chapter and enumerate how helpful Priscilla's 7 move is:

15: Priscilla can easily move between healing units in the south and near the throne, whereas Serra can't.

16: Priscilla can get to Lyn's units faster than Serra.

17: Priscilla keeps up with the mounted units on the front line in this chapter. This is pretty necessary in order to get the Knight Crest.

17x: If the player has multiple units choking the alleyways, Priscilla can move around and more easily heal them.

18: There are 3 chokepoints on this map (namely, where the enemies board your ship), and Priscilla can move between all of them.

19, 21: Priscilla has more effective range with Torch, I suppose. In chapter 21 as the reinforcements appear in the northeast and southeast corners of the map, Priscilla can follow the units who are going to save the villages.

I could go on.

Okay then, make it just B's, so she gets worse bonuses but finishes earlier. Either way it's about the same.

It's actually not. Priscilla gets her B supports in about 60% of the time that it takes Serra to get her C supports, and all Priscilla loses out on is like 2 avo and 2 hit.

"full offense is nice?" No, full offense sucks for Priscilla considering she can't attack for half the game. Lucius doesn't want it either. He already has very high offense but trash defense. He wants more Def and Avo, not more Atk. And his Priscilla support isn't faster than his Serra support. Serra's a better partner for him.

The problem here is that Lucius gets to triangle with Raven and Priscilla, and Raven does give him full defense. Assuming Raven is aiming for A Lucius B Priscilla, B Serra only gives Lucius 1 def and 5 avo relative to B Priscilla. This is not worth breaking the triangle. I'd rather have the three functioning as a group then to drag Serra in just so she could give 1 def and 5 avo to Lucius.

By the way, how much does that 1 def actually help Lucius?

20/4 Lucius in chapter 27 has 31 HP/9 def with A Raven.

- 24 atk Steel Lance WKs 3RKO Lucius with either support.

- 19 atk Steel Bow archers 4RKO Lucius with either support. Same with 19 atk Steel Sword mercs.

- 17 atk Javelin knights 5RKO Lucius with B Priscilla and 6RKO him with B Serra. Except, there are only 4 of them. A 30 atk Silver Lance general plus 2 Javelin knights will KO Lucius with either support.

20/9 Lucius in chapter 31 has 33.75 HP/9.5 def with A Raven.

- Most promoted generals and snipers on this map have around 29-31 atk. Lucius is 2RKOd with either support.

It's negligible.

[Quintessence]

I'd rather say IMO:

Top:

Hector

Lyn

Pent

Athos

Nils/Ninian

High:

Lowen

Lucius

Canas

Raven

Priscilla

Serra

Sain

Florina

Louise

Oswin

Marcus

Upper Mid:

Kent

Eliwood

Erk

Rath (For Lyn's Mode)

Wallace (Same as Rath)

Karel

Harken

Jaffar

Legault

Lower Mid:

Vaida

Rath

Wallace

Bartre

Guy

Fiora

Nino

Farina

Heath

Hawkeye

Isadora

Wil

Matthew

Dart

Renault

Dorcas

Bottom:

Merlinus (If Exposed)

PS:PEXP :D

Edited August 1, 2009 by Dan

[Florete]

Other than the first turn or two of some chapters, when does it happen?

I'd prefer not to go on a chapter-by-chapter basis here, but take Chapter 17 for example (the first chapter Sain and Serra have together after Sain re-joins). Once you've cleared off the enemies in the middle part, you can send units with higher move ahead to attract the further enemies, or to get Raven to Lucius faster or something. Those times will come.

In order for him to move out of Serra's range, he has to move far away from the main group. That's rarely a good idea in HHM.

He doesn't have to be alone to move out of her range. Why do you think KentxSain is one of the few often assumed support pairings?

More like no support turns for her, so the "move gap" deal affects her supports the same anyways, except that there's only a move gap with one of Serra's supports instead of all of them, so really the "move gap" argument against support turns would hurt Priscilla's supports more than Serra's overall.

...What? I don't even see how that makes sense. You said "if you sent guys like Sain ahead, Priscilla would probably go with them too anyways." This means she's doing two things better. 1) She's healing guys Serra apparently can't reach, and 2) she's building support points with Sain. And I already explained why the "move gap" argument doesn't apply so much to Priscilla, since she's the one with the higher move doing the healing, not the other way around.

Serra has 7 chapters in LHM. Even if you finish every chapter in 6 turns, which you won't (hai there C7), that's 42 turns for Serra in LHM.

Serra won't heal every turn. It's rare you can get her to heal on the first turn, for example. Oh, and you can also beat all except, like, the last two within 6 turns. (Hai there Florina on chapter 7)

Pathetic, sure. "Doing zero damage to your guys" level of pathetic, no. And they all have Iron weapons giving them good accuracy, plus none of your units have good Avo at all, so people will be getting hit left and right. Then throw in the random +1 HP from level ups that Serra can heal when there's nothing better to do. There's no shortage of injuries.

And a lot of them are also Axe users, which 4 of your units see WTA against, and then you have people like Wil, Rath, Luciua and Erk that rarely, if ever, see counters, and even our Lance guys can equip a Javelin when they're buyable and avoid counters. And then there's Wallace who never gets hurt. Something you also forget is that LM has a fairly low enemy count except in Chapter 9, so even if they're accurate you just might not have anyone fighting at all.

Remember that Nils is often refreshing Serra to heal again in LHM. It allows Serra to get more EXP than she otherwise would, while the combat units are getting the same amount total regardless of whether you refresh them or not, so if it's a choice between refreshing Serra or a fighter, the nod goes to Serra. It benefits her without hurting anyone else.

So favoritism (aka Nils being glued to Serra) is perfectly fine to apply to Serra? You say my fighters will get the same experience, and while that's true, I can refresh them to, you know, beat the chapter faster, or get them to a better position for enemy phase or something. Saying Nils stays glued to Serra is BS, especially at the times when no one needs a heal.

Just because Tactics rank means nothing doesn't mean we can take forever to complete maps, else there'd be little point in the tier list at all, since we could arena abuse and stuff and Priscilla would clearly be > Serra because they'd both promote very fast and would likely be at even levels, and it wouldn't be hard to show that Priscilla > Serra at even levels.

I assume your last sentence is referring to Priscilla's higher move. That might let her get an extra heal in once or twice. It's never going to matter often enough for her to actually close the gap by even one level, though.

If it lets her get an extra Heal just once per map, by chapter 24 she's closed the level gap by one. I think it can do something.

Okay then, make it just B's, so she gets worse bonuses but finishes earlier. Either way it's about the same.

Earlier bonuses are better. By the time Serra's supports build, they won't be as much help because everyone will probably be promoted and already owning face, while Priscilla can at least help others while they're more vulnerable and not ORKOing everything.

"full offense is nice?" No, full offense sucks for Priscilla considering she can't attack for half the game. Lucius doesn't want it either. He already has very high offense but trash defense. He wants more Def and Avo, not more Atk. And his Priscilla support isn't faster than his Serra support. Serra's a better partner for him.

I never even said Priscilla was a better partner for Lucius than Serra. What I did say is that Raven is much better for Lucius, and Priscilla can form a decently fast triangle with Raven and Lucius, which is awesome in itself. With this setup, Lucius will be getting +4 Def and +7 avoid. If he traded B Priscilla for B Serra, he'd get a bonus 1 Def and 5 avoid, but would be having it active less often as a result.

And, for the record, LuciusxPriscilla is 3 turns faster than LuciusxSerra. Not a huge selling point, but it technically is faster.

Kent isn't used every time. All that needs to happen is for him to get bad levels in Lyn Mode, and he's out.

Lucius isn't used every time. All that needs to happen is for him to get bad levels in Lyn Mode, and he's out.

Thing is, Kent > Lucius anyway (So he'll be played more often), and Sain wants Kent support more than Serra.

Fiora or Priscilla? Wind x Wind? Are you kidding? The only bonus that gives is Atk, which is exactly what Sain doesn't need more of. He already has a very high Str stat. He needs Def and Avo moreso than Atk. Oh look, Serra's affinity gives both of those.

You forgot Crit, and Hit, something that Sain actually does need on occasion. Higher crit and atk also give him much better ORKOing potential, especially with Killer weapons, meaning he'll face counter attacks less often. Fiora and Priscilla also both match his move, and Fiora can triangle with Kent and Sain as well.

As for Lucius, again Raven isn't used every time, though yes, he's better off in that department than Kent.

Raven's Top tier. I think he'll be in play rather often.

Either way, B Lucius already gives better bonuses than any of Priscilla's A supports (except possibly Oswin, but Priscilla wants A Raven or Erk anyway since those are so much faster), and B Sain is about the same, so it isn't like Serra needs those A's in order to compete. They're just icing on the cake whenever they do happen.

SerraxLucius B: +1 atk, +2 Def, +5 avoid, +5 Hit, +10 crit, +5 Dodge

PriscillaxErk A: +1 atk, +1 Def, +7 avoid, +7 Hit, +15 crit, +5 dodge

Looks fairly similar to me. And Serra's fastest A's take like 45 turns more than Priscilla's, so they're not happening in enough time to really make a difference.

She obviously doesn't have to, she'd simply prefer to, so you might as well stick with arguing her Erk and Raven supports.

Guy, Lucius, Sain, Oswin, and Heath all respect the bonuses for varying reasons.

Meanwhile, Priscilla doesn't care about Atk or Crit since she can't attack while unpromoted, then after she promotes her Atk is often high enough to 2HKO the enemies anyway because she hits on Res. On the other hand, her defenses could obviously use some work.

I already agreed to Def being > Offense in this game, but just because Priscilla can't use the bonuses doesn't mean her partners can't. As previously stated, giving bonuses > not.